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Metagame np: NU Stage 12 - Nevergreen

Discussion in 'ORAS NeverUsed' started by Disjunction, Mar 11, 2016.

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  1. Disjunction

    Disjunction It's So Good Now
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    The NU council (and about everyone else in the community) has brought Sceptile to the slate for a suspect test. The suspect will last for two weeks, and, contrary to the previous ladder, we will only be having one ladder to achieve reqs on.

    The b value for the ladder will be 9 with a COIL requirement of 2800. Sample values with the corresponding statistics:
    Code:
    GXE N
    100 18
    90 25
    85 32
    80 46
    78 58
    75 91
    72 222
    
    N=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2800)

    Reason for Sceptile Suspect (open)

    Sceptile was deemed a very overwhelming presence in the NU tier because of its ability to outspeed the vast majority of the unboosted metagame in tandem with its insane diversity and power in its offensive sets. The mixed Life Orb set sports a powerful Leaf Storm nuke with the coverage and strength to threaten most Pokemon in the tier, while the Swords Dance set serves as a reliable win condition late game that can work past some of the stops to the Life Orb set.

    Tagging The Immortal for our second ladder in a month because we're greedy :)

    /!\ Rules for posting in this thread /!\
    1. No one liners nor uninformed posts;
    2. No discussion on other potential suspects;
    3. No discussion on the suspect process;
    4. You are required to make respectful posts;
    5. You are required to read this thread before posting.

    Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2016
  2. Raseri

    Raseri
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    [3/11/16, 8:38:11 PM] raseri: Bitches we suspecting sceptile
    [3/11/16, 8:38:23 PM] raseri: Cause its a mothafucking reptile
    [6:38:40 PM] raseri: boltsandbombers house red tiles
    [6:38:49 PM] raseri: Cause we suspecting a sceptile

    [6:39:16 PM] raseri: Bitches be saying we retarded and shit
    [6:39:34 PM] raseri: But they don't know I have a real big dick
    [6:39:43 PM] raseri: Does dick rhyme with shit?
    [6:39:48 PM] raseri: FUCK IT

    WE SUSPECTIN A SCEPTILE


    bars brought to you by raseri
  3. boltsandbombers

    boltsandbombers i'm sorry mr. man
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    Because it wasn't stated in the OP, friendly reminder that shitposts and one liners are not tolerated and will be deleted or infracted depending on the case except raseri's
  4. Raseri

    Raseri
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    We will be doing at least 1 suspect tour. Announcement of when will happen soon.
    AJB, nv, Shaneghoul and 5 others like this.
  5. boltsandbombers

    boltsandbombers i'm sorry mr. man
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    Apparently nobody posted about this either, ladder is up
    nv, lolbro, AD impish john and 4 others like this.
  6. Complicating

    Complicating

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    I'm gonna be completely honest with everyone, Sceptile is deserving of a suspect test for the reason of its speed and multi-threat sets which make countering more difficult than normal; however, I think that we should think about sceptile through various perspectives. Indeed, there are several sets for this guy, the strongest one being between the two mentioned in the reasoning for the test above this post. My whole argument for the suspect test atm is that Sceptile is not worthy of being banned. The primary reason goes along the lines of: No matter what set Sceptile opts to run, there will always be something that beats it or something that it just can't cover. The other reasons relate to flaws: Sceptile can be worn down with relative ease, Sceptile hardly ever wants to switch into an attack, Sceptile does not cope very well with status (especially paralysis), and Sceptile cannot function nearly as well without some support from teammates. I'm just going to show Sceptile's 3 most threatening sets below here:
    Sceptile @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Overgrow
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Leaf Storm
    - Giga Drain
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power Ice / Fire

    Sceptile @ Sitrus Berry
    Ability: Unburden
    EVs: 220 HP / 252 Atk / 36 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Leaf Blade
    - Acrobatics
    - Earthquake / Substitute

    Sceptile @ Life Orb
    Ability: Overgrow
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    - Giga Drain
    - Leaf Storm / Focus Blast
    - Earthquake / Rock Slide
    - Hidden Power Ice / Fire

    So, those are the three main sets for Sceptile. I want to analyze each set separately to make my argument proper, otherwise it's all speculation and opinion.
    Choice Specs Set
    As with most choice mons, prediction is of the utmost importance; however, Sceptile has the benefit of being diverse unlike several other choice users, as it is quite capable of running different sets. This just means that finding a counter is difficult until Sceptile has made a move that reveals its set. You would hate to be the player that counters a Sceptile with a Scyther, only see that there's now a substitute in front of your Scyther. After Sceptile chooses a move on the specs set, it will probably have to switch out of battle, especially if it hit leaf storm. This means that entry hazards gradually wear down this variant, with spike stacking being almost lethal to this variant. This set is powerful, but not impossible to beat. Charizard checks this set very well, and without Rocks up Zard blatantly counters and gets a fairly free move. AV Hariyama is both a check and a counter to Sceptile, though it gets hit hard with leaf storm. Close Combat OHKOs and Knock Off works at removing items, especially when Sceptile is going to switch out. Physical and Special scarfed Mesprit check Sceptile, both dealing well over 60% damage to it with their super effective coverage. Mixed LO Abomasnow can check Sceptile not locked into Focus Blast nor HP Fire and make it very hard to find a counter in its own right thanks to its great coverage. Ice shard can also pick off a weakened Sceptile. The list of checks goes on for a while and many are dependent on the move Sceptile gets locked into. As far as counters go, most AV users can safely counter this sceptile. Garbodor counters this set, along with other bulkier poison types in the tier. By no means does any of this make Specs Sceptile overly powerful. There may be a distant lack of counters, but that is what you should expect when you have a good choice attacker. That's fundamental. They deal damage, then leave. Simple as that. They get worn down easily and in some cases can become set up fodder. Specs Sceptile is no exception. It's the NU Equivalent to Tyrantrum in RU. It's a great choice user and just needs to be prepared for. That's all.
    Calcs:
    252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garbodor: 161-190 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    100 Atk Life Orb Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sceptile: 166-198 (59 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and hail damage (Blizzard OHKOs)
    252+ Atk Mesprit U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sceptile: 204-242 (72.5 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Scarfed Mesprit)
    252 SpA Mesprit Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sceptile: 194-230 (69 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Scarfed Mesprit)
    0 Atk Charizard Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sceptile: 318-374 (113.1 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sceptile: 290-344 (103.2 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard: 96-114 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (minimal bulk Zard)
    252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sceptile: 288-339 (102.4 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 198-234 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magmortar: 175-207 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Combusken: 170-200 (65.1 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 184-217 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Mantine Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sceptile: 152-182 (54 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    -2 252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jynx: 144-169 (53.1 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jynx: 175-207 (64.5 - 76.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jynx: 165-195 (60.8 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Really, this set is checked by a good majority of the tier and is easily worn down by hazards and status. Either it goes away, or it takes a huge amount of damage from its checks. You can calc your own, but in all honesty, this is just a good choice mon. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Swords Dance Sceptile
    This variant is actually pretty hard to predict just as it is hard to stop in the late game if it manages to set up. Thanks to Unburden, nothing besides speed boost Ninjask is going to outspeed this Sceptile if it gets its unburden boost. Even so, this set has its own weaknesses. The primary weakness is the speed before the unburden boost. The main set (above) makes Sceptile able to outspeed everything with base speed 80 and below. But there are many pokemon that are faster than 284 speed. Most of them are also good Sceptile checks as well; Charizard, Magmortar, Pinsir, Tauros, Jynx, Haunter, Mismagius, Scyther, Pyroar, Archeops, Skuntank, and several others. If you wanted to outspeed the base 95 speed tier, you would need 168 speed investment, which is a gigantic chunk of bulk that would be lost. And even then, you would still be hit hard by Liepard, Skuntank, Zard, Tauros, Pyroar, Scyther, and other good checks that outspeed base 95 too. Remember this is before unburden kicks in, meaning that some like Pyroar can just dismantle this set. Scyther with an Eviolite also fares well against this set before the unburden boost, as it is able to break the substitutes if the set incorporates them. I want to point out that the point of this set is to clean/sweep in the late game. This variant will also never switch into battle to take a shot, as it can ruin the whole point of unburden among other problems that could happen. Even with the HP investment, Sceptile is not terribly difficult to kill. This Sceptile is very good as a late game sweeper/cleaner, but otherwise, this Sceptile will not do very much until that point in time in the battle. This makes it good against stall and balance, but not necessarily good up against hyper offense. Even though Sceptile will outspeed a good number of things, it will have trouble setting up a SD. If Substitute has been replaced by EQ or Rock Slide, then Sceptile will be able to cover much easier and still perform well in the later stages of the game, but this also means that it won't easily have access to its unburden ability. And if this is the case, then some of the checks mentioned earlier for the specs set will also fall down to this variant. Weezing will also become a hard counter and check to it. Vileplume poses a serious threat to it. And if you replace acrobatics with rock slide, you no longer have a way to seriously hurt other grass types without an attack boost. So really, this Sceptile just performs its role well, but it cannot perform this role without the necessary support from its team. The same can be said about any other good late game sweeper/cleaner. Hazards are needed, checks and counters have to have been previously dealt with, otherwise this set will most likely fail to properly work. Priority also poses a threat to this set, as Sceptile is heavily dented by most priority moves bar aqua jet.

    Life Orb Sceptile
    This variant of Sceptile in my opinion in the most dangerous and the primary reason for having Sceptile Suspect tested. My favorite Sceptile is in fact Physical LO Sceptile with Leaf Storm, Leaf Blade, Rock Slide, Earthquake or whatever needed coverage move. It lures in several checks, such as Scyther, and gets clean OHKOs with hazard support. I think that whether it is a special attacker primarily or not, LO Sceptile is arguably the strongest set it can utilize. Here is where things get tricky: coverage. Hidden Power Ice/Fire will prevent non-Scarfed variants of Scyther from checking Sceptile UNLESS rocks are not present. However, this move does not stop all grass types from checking Sceptile. It also doesn't really cover many other types of pokemon in the tier for better damage than Leaf Storm or Focus Blast does. Not all Life Orb Sceptile carry focus blast, as they commonly have Giga Drain and Leaf Storm in the moveset, as Giga Drain provides some longevity to Sceptile while it also aids in remedying the stat drop from leaf storm. And after a leaf storm, Sceptile is prone to going through hell by its healthy amount of checks, meaning that Sceptile is worn down. This variant does well against more offensive teams, but is essentially useless against stall. Balance also doesn't see a large issue with Sceptile, as it will have (should have) answers to Sceptile. This points out two things. 1) Sceptile greatly appreciates support, otherwise it will not be able to stop its biggest checks and will more often fail to pick up important KOs. (2) Sceptile's checks and counters are all heavily dependent on the moveset being run. If Sceptile lacks a certain coverage move for another, then clearly it will also lose coverage for something while gaining coverage in something else. Essentially, I think we all really need to evaluate this. Sceptile is just a really good pokemon, but I do not think that Sceptile is so powerful that it can be used on every type of team. I do not think that Sceptile is capable of preventing people from using certain types of playstyles simply due to the fact that it is worn down easily and is very dependent on its moveset in order to beat certain types of teams. I do not think that Sceptile is a bad pokemon in the slightest, in fact, Sceptile is incredibly good, but there are just some things that Sceptile will never do and Sceptile is limited to whatever role it is given on the team. I will admit that the LO set is also good for cleaning, but it is not unstoppable and is easily worn down, especially by anything that it can't completely bring down. Anyway, look into it for yourselves and use it in practice. I just don't think Sceptile is worthy of being banned because it will always lack something for the moveset it uses in some way or another. I also want to briefly mention that my evaluations are based on a larger number of the tier rather than specific mons with a niche, such as Scarfed Chatot or LV1 Endeavor+Shell Bell Aron. Like I said earlier, Sceptile is the NU version of Tyrantrum in RU. There's not a great reason to seriously ban it, though it is a powerhouse of the tier that has to be prepared for carefully, just like many things in every tier.
    My apologies for the extremely long analysis.
    Zetasniper and Syncrasy like this.
  7. Teddeh

    Teddeh This aint a scene it's a... GOD DAMNED ARMS RACE
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    Okay firstly, I don't think every sceptile should run giga drain. I'd suggest the most popular set is:
    Sceptile @ Life Orb
    Ability: Overgrow
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake

    whereby it hits all of its most common checks whilst still having a nuke in leaf storm to force switches. Common switch ins are usually things like charizard, garbodor, skuntank, gourgeist, vileplume, opposing sceptile, scyther... I can go on but you get the picture. Now this set (with prediction involved) can effectively 2 hit ko all of the so called checks for sceptile, whilst still being able to outpace and nuke things with a base 120 stab, it's simply absurd.
    Secondly, the only counter is sliggoo, whereby it is super passive and can still potentially lose out to the physical SD set depending on whether you can get boosts / lucky with sleep talk rolls.
    I think the set you are running simply doesn't apply to most of those calcs, especially since there is no real reason to be running specs over life orb when it has such an amazing speed tier + coverage, with the ability to run giga drain for recovery.
    Whilst not only is there a problem regarding leaf storm forcing switches, if you guess the set wrong and switch out your mon to take a leaf storm, they could be viably running a sub set ( http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-nu-138319 me vs finch in spl) whereby I managed to sweep with its coverage, outpacing even base 110 tauros and having the power to kill a scyther with hp ice.

    tl;dr i don't really agree with your argument about having something that sceptile misses out on, because it can pretty much hit everything with its amazing coverage whilst outpacing everything with its amazing speed tier, making the only true answers to sceptile passive things that may be 2 hit ko on switch in depending on coverage.
    Orphic, Shadestep, Adaire and 7 others like this.
  8. Emarnus

    Emarnus

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    Wouldn't Weezing count as a good counter for sceptile? I cant think of any coverage that sceptile has to 2HKO it.
  9. bird crew

    bird crew

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    While true, Weezing lacks reliable recovery outside of pain split, and leaf storm/hp ice can chunk weezing for quite a bit (47.9 - 55.9%) and (29.6 - 35%). It can only act as a counter to sceptile maybe twice throughout the match before it gets too whittled down.

    Weezing is also not the most threatening pokemon to switch into, as quite a few mons can deal with its combination of sludge bomb/will-o-wisp/pain split, such as magmortar, xatu, mesprit, zard, among others.
  10. Cased

    Cased Banned deucer.

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    I didn't know we could post our opinions of Sceptile here D: might as well get started, got a large opinion

    Sceptile has two main sets, I know it can run Substitute but by running Substitute you lose out on Leaf Storm power (Leaf + Sub is silly) and you lose out on coverage. I don't think the benefits of Sub from avoiding Sucker Punch or status are truly worth losing the two of the things that Sceptile has that make it overwhelming in my opinion. The two sets are Mixed Attacker and Swords Dance, they are used so differently than one another so I'll talk about them separately.

    Special Attacker

    [​IMG] @ Life Orb
    Ability: Overgrow
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naive Nature
    - Leaf Storm
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Hidden Power Ice / Focus Blast
    I personally run different EV Spreads on both that have different purposes, mainly more attack on Sceptile in order to get a 100% 2hko on bulky Xatu with Leftovers instead of Colbur since we lost Gurdurr/Sawk, but that's not important for this situation. With Sceptile's 120 Base Speed, it outpaces probably 95% of all the Pokemon you're allowed to use in the NU tier. Once you factor in the viability of all the Pokemon that outpace Sceptile without a Scarf, Swellow is the only Pokemon that outpaces it. After you factor in the inability for Swellow to effectively revenge kill without Choice Specs, allowing for easy capitalization post-death; I think that makes mixed Sceptile the most elite revenge killer we currently have in the tier. Like Teddeh said, its switch-ins are basically Sliggo, Abomasnow, Vileplume, Skuntank, Weezing, /Hariyama/, Ferroseed, and Gourg-XL (I added a few in based on set), with Sliggo being the best switchin to all of them. A lot of the Pokemon I mentioned are soft-checks to Sceptile; and by that I mean they're probably only good for one switch-in against Sceptile. Pokemon like Weezing, Hariyama, and Skuntank (Shuca or shaky) are often one time switch-ins due to the sheer power of Leaf Storm doing a lot to these Pokemon. While Abomasnow, Vileplume, Ferroseed, and Gourg-XL are able to take Leaf Storms like nothing, but risk Hidden Power Ice or Focus Blast that can 2hko their sets depending on EV Spread (worth saying a SpD invested Vileplume that doesn't mind tanking Sceptile Hidden Powers takes around 40 minimum from Lix Heavy Slam). To sum this paragraph up, while there are a fair amount of switch-ins to Sceptile, I find that a majority of them of those switch-ins that are easily worn down over the course of a game if they are being used to take on Sceptile attacks. And while the other switch-ins to have access to reliably recovery, those switch-ins are at risk at being 2hko'd by common moves on a Life Orb Sceptile set.​

    I run Naive on my Sceptiles due to people using priority as their main way to threaten and check Sceptile, while Hasty means I take more from the Mach Punches, Ice Shards, Fake Outs, Sucker Punches, and things of that nature. While offensive teams should not cannot solely rely on the ability to outpace Pokemon in order to threaten them out, and priority is the next most common way of checking offensive Pokemon. Sceptile's bulk without heavy HP investment is probably the largest thing it has going against it, not having large opportunities to switch into play without risk and not being able to live Sucker Punch from Shiftry occasionally after Stealth Rock damage are two examples of Sceptile's bad bulk and non-beneficial typing. The only flaw I find in this argument is how these Pokemon get into play against Sceptile, the Pokemon that I believe are able to threaten Sceptile with their priorities are Kangaskhan, Hariyama, Skuntank, Hitmonchan, Shiftry, Liepard, Piloswine and Abomasnow. Out of all of these Pokemon, the only Pokemon that is able to come in comfortably on Sceptile would be Hariyama. While Skuntank/Abomasnow can switch-in in a pinch like I said before, Skuntank takes a lot from Earthquake if it doesn't have the popular Shuca Berry, while it takes a solid chunk from Leaf Storm regardless, and Abomasnow doesn't enjoy taking Leaf Storm or Rock Slide, and if it's a mixed spread, it may run a -Def/-SpD nature if it decides Speed is important (imo it's vital to its success), so taking attacks wouldn't be its forte. While I concede that priority is a perfectly viable way to deal with Sceptile, but I do think it's unhealthy that in order to bring in those Pokemon who can check Sceptile, you would need to wait until after a death. Even though the priority from all of these Pokemon do not kill Sceptile, they all do at least 50% to Sceptile, and once you factor in Life Orb damage and possible hazards, Sceptile doesn't have much health left (then you get into Overgrow arguments and stuff and then the argument just gets weird). But yeah just to sum this paragraph up, while priority is a solid way of dealing with Sceptile, those users have a general inability to switch in effectively, and the priority from a majority of those Pokemon doesn't do an overwhelming amount that could force Sceptile out on a consistent basis.

    Just for the record, the reason I didn't include Choice Scarf Pokemon revenging Sceptile in my priority/revenging paragraph is because Choiced items are supposed to aid Pokemon in doing things, . Specs/Band allow Pokemon to break through walls they previously weren't, and Scarf allows Pokemon to outpace Pokemon they weren't made to outpace originally. Mesprit, Jynx, Kabutops are all examples of relevant Choice Scarf Pokemon that have an ability to revenge Sceptile at any point.

    Swords Dance
    [​IMG] @ Sitrus Berry
    Ability: Unburden
    EVs: 220 HP / 252 Atk / 36 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Leaf Blade
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake
    While everybody has their certain preference upon how much HP their SD Sceptile runs in order to tank hits it normally doesn't take as well, this set is the premier late-game sweeper in the current tier. I also know a lot of people run SubSD Sceptile with Acrobatics, or even Acro > Rock Slide, but this is the set I've had the most success with, and I can only really talk from my experiences using this Pokemon. This set often does not come in play more than once per game, due to Sitrus Berry only having a one-time use to boost it's very slow Speed without investment, and you often don't want to reveal your set by bringing this in so early. Swords Dance may not aid Sceptile the power to break through Weezing, Steelix, and other Pokemon who have high Defense, it gives Sceptile enough power to break through once everything is weakened down. While I don't think is the broken set for Sceptile, the mixed attacker set is what gives this Pokemon its surprise value and set-up opportunities it may not find if this was the set everybody prepared for. Coverage wise this set is very strong since it carries almost the same coverage that mix Sceptile, and the extra bulk definitely allows it to live attacks easier, and even means revenging with priority is a tougher job since the HP investment of this set (220 HP) decreases the priority attacks by around 12-15% + Sitrus Berry creates an awkward scenario for all priority users, since 25% extra health means bulky Sceptile is harder to kill at that point. There are a plethora of Pokemon in the current tier that Sceptile can set-up a Swords Dance on at any time thanks to the 220 HP (or whatever you choose), and thanks to the Sitrus Berry, you gain 25% of health (If Steelix Heavy Slams this Sceptile and it does the max 72%, Sitrus Berry brings Sceptile back to 53% health which is very impressive). To sum this paragraph up, SD Sceptile finds multiple set-up opportunities late in the game thanks to its HP investment and amount of Pokemon it can set-up Swords Dances on without regret. Sitrus Berry is what allows Sceptile to not be worried about taking strong attacks, since the 25% HP addition doubles its Speed to unreachable heights and makes it harder for priority Pokemon to revenge.

    If you guys hate creating/reading walls of text like I do, I summed up all my paragraphs in the last sentence of every one and turned it into my broad thoughts on Sceptile as a Pokemon. Read below if you skimmed this too, because this basically sums everything up,

    Summary:
    Sceptile is a fantastic Pokemon with blazing Speed that has redefined the offensive Speed tier in NU. There are a fair amount of switch-ins to Sceptile. I find that a majority of them of those switch-ins that are easily worn down over the course of a game if they are being used to take on Sceptile attacks. And while the other switch-ins to have access to reliably recovery, those switch-ins are at risk at being 2hko'd by common moves on a Life Orb Sceptile set. Priority is a solid way of dealing with Sceptile, except those users have a general inability to switch in effectively, creating a situation where you'd need to fodder something in order to effectively check Sceptile with these Pokemon. Priority from a majority of those Pokemon doesn't do an overwhelming amount that could force Sceptile out on a consistent basis. Swords Dance Sceptile acts as an incredible late-game cleaner thanks to its padded bulk and ability in Unburden that makes it near impossible to revenge after absorbing Sitrus Berry. SD Sceptile finds multiple set-up opportunities late in the game thanks to its HP investment and amount of Pokemon it can set-up Swords Dances on without regret. Sitrus Berry is what allows Sceptile to not be worried about taking strong attacks, since the 25% HP addition doubles its Speed to unreachable heights and makes it harder for priority Pokemon to revenge. I believe the pros of Sceptile outweigh the cons very heavily, resulting in my preference to Ban Sceptile.

    Man I wrote a lot I'm sorry ;_;
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2016
  11. AmazingAli

    AmazingAli

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    Can you think how scep changed the whole meta?
    just think? many of some OP mons dropped from A+ to much lower
    1. rhydon (giga drain yay)
    2. magmortar (EQ always OHKO's this)
    3. tauros (focus blast never misses :P)
    4. rest of the faster mons (archeops , zangoose , ....)
    out of the board , scep has no bulk hence it isn't reliable on breaking teams
    indeed this mon devastated the tier but by its bulk it is sure that "THIS VOTING WILL GO INTO A CLOSE CALL EITHER FOR A BAN OR NO BAN"
    Cheers!!!
  12. Teddeh

    Teddeh This aint a scene it's a... GOD DAMNED ARMS RACE
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    Hello Ali! I don't think it will be that close considering sceptile is a very fast mon, outspeed the number of mons you mentioned! However I don't think its bulk plays a part in whether it will be banned or not due to it being too fast to avoid taking hits and having powerful coverage like leaf storm (oh ko's tauros so you don't need to risk the focus blast!) and physical coverage moves like rock slide / eq for fire types and charizard. However I appreciate you input in suggesting that it has centralized the meta around itself :)
    AmazingAli likes this.
  13. AmazingAli

    AmazingAli

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    lel
    yea bro i'm new to NU meta although i play ou and uu(only 3-4 months ago :P)
    anyways ur right that it has great coverage but only a single stab type
    NU has seriously only minimum number of checks or counters to it (thanks weezing :V) but it still rekts it with leaf storm spam (when makes a crit)
    also its speed tiers are above board.NO ONE can outspeed him 1v1.it makes pressure on team to sack a mon everytime then use a hard hitter in order to remove it
    sceptile should not be here in NU imo
    it gets all the usage and my only love mon (i'm talking to you rhydon <3) has been turned down easily even after an adamant rock polish :(
    Cheers again !!!
  14. Kaiser emotion

    Kaiser emotion

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    Am I the only one who runs a physical sceptile with
    leaf blade
    earthquake
    Swords dance
    X-scissor
    Item: lax incense(favorite item BTW)
    Evs: 150 attack 150 speed 20 HP
    Ability: unburden
    Nature: adament
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  15. Take Azelfie

    Take Azelfie But first, let me
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    Why Lax Incense!?!?! If anything you would want to run Sitrus Berry to get the unburden boost
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  16. Kaiser emotion

    Kaiser emotion

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    A) lax incense favorite item
    B) I get really lucky with it even sweeped a team with him cause I got 4 missed moves including ice beam that saved him it is a gambling thing cause once it didn't help at all
    slurmz, qsns, Chechen U Out and 45 others like this.
  17. MetaGamer14

    MetaGamer14 Banned deucer.

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    So, about Weezing countering Sceptile.

    I rarely see a Weezing on someones team so... not really a Sceptile Counter

    BUT...

    Swellow, Skuntank, Archeops with Scarf, Scyther, Haunter, Muk, Jynx, Mawile, Magmotar, Rotom-Fan, Crustle, and Pyroar

    Are true counters too Sceptile and are medicorly on the NU field so...

    Im saying that Sceptile Shouldnt be banned because of these counters to it.

    If you disaggre with me quote me in the fourms so I can hear your opinions.
    astroboy and Cherub Agent like this.
  18. Kiyo

    Kiyo Spongebob is my favorite anime
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    Ok, so far the quality of discussion in this thread has been less than good. If you're going to post make sure its worth reading. One liners and jabs at other users don't fit this description, neither do posts regarding Pokemon that aren't legal in NU or that aren't relevant to the metagame.

    /!\ Rules for posting in this thread /!\
    1. No one liners nor uninformed posts;
    2. No discussion on other potential suspects;
    3. No discussion on the suspect process;
    4. You are required to make respectful posts.

    Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  19. Sir Kay

    Sir Kay to be continued...
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Well actually, Weezing is a very good staple in our NU metagame as it's able to be a soft switch in to every Sceptile set as well as offering a lot of utility from things like Taunt, Toxic Spikes, Will'o, and a pure Poison typing which helps it with a lot of mons. Weezing one of the better switch ins to Sceptile that we have, given what we have to chose from.

    As for most of the mons you listed as "True Counters" a lot of them don't every switch in to it. Most of these like Swellow and scarf/ sash Jynx only aim to revenge kill it and aren't true counters. Besides that things like Pyroar need a scarf to revenge kill it, Magmortar fears EQ's, Crustle can't take Focus Blasts Leaf Storms, and the list goes on. The only thing that can switch in and force it out that you listed are Scyther and I guess Shucca Berry Skuntank but that only works once.
    As for the "... Are true counters too Sceptile and are medicorly on the NU field" part of your post, that simply isn't the case for the mons you listed weather or not they may or may not be 'true counters'. Most of the stuff you listed are very viable in NU.


    Over all the number of things wer actually have to switch into Sceptile is absurdly low. Bulky poison types will be chunked hard by either Leaf Storm or its coverage, generic special tanks like Hariyama still get murdered by it, and it's forced us into this hyper speed meta where things that are in the 110 speed mark are considered too slow to keep up with it. It's forcing us to run scarfers on every team or Swellow just to try and deal with it. Right now games can often be decided by whose Sceptile wins the speed tie. It has too much going for it, nothing should be able to nuke majority of the tier, out pace it, and have the coverage to deal with everything. I don't think it's healthy for the metagame.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
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  20. MetaGamer14

    MetaGamer14 Banned deucer.

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    eh Shell Smash Crustle with Sturdy

    and Focus Blast has 30% chance to miss so... and also since hax is prevelent it can set one and revenge kill it though I like your opinion

    I think Sceptile Should Not Banned since it is frail and in RU some pokemon like

    Jolteon, and Accelgor can outspeed it and kill it either with Bug Buzz and Jolteon with its HP Ice so...

    Maybe a Ban. Or no because theres always pros and cons about this situation.
  21. Kiyo

    Kiyo Spongebob is my favorite anime
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    Shell Smash Crustle is an offensive check to Sceptile, it is in no way a counter. If you'd like more information on what a check is compared to a counter read this article: http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters

    We try not to use arguments that lie solely on the accuracy of a move. Yes Focus Blast misses, we get it. We don't allow potentially broken Pokemon to stay in a tier because they have to hit Focus Blast.

    We don't tier based on what will happen to the Pokemon after a suspect, we tier solely based on how it currently affects the metagame in question.

    Thanks for ending your post with a contradiction and a general statement that lends no help to either side of the argument.
  22. Dat Chesnaught

    Dat Chesnaught

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    Where would you place sceptile once banned?
    definetly not NFE right?
  23. Kiyo

    Kiyo Spongebob is my favorite anime
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    It would go into a banlist that sits between Pokemon that are RU and NU by usage known as BL3.

    "BL3 (Borderline 3) is the banlist for NU and is not a playable tier. BL3 Pokémon are not RU by usage (i.e., they do not have above 3.41% usage in RU) but cannot be used in NU."

    For the record, these types of questions belong in the Simple Questions and Simple Answers thread, not in a larger discussion forum.
  24. SlickHippo99

    SlickHippo99

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    As has been stated, Sceptile has two main sets, being Life Orb and physical SD. I would argue that the Life Orb set is more objectively centralizing than the SD set, but not necessarily broken in its own right. The problem is, Sceptile is incredibly easy to just slap on a team, the special Life Orb variant especially, but the SD version has enough options between Acrobatics, Earthquake, and Rock Slide that it can pick and choose its checks and counters to a certain degree. This near-stupid level of splashability makes it more difficult to tell what kind of Sceptile you're up against since either variant works pretty well on most teams, and even after that you have to figure out what coverage it's running or if it's running Sub, which complicates things further. Incorrectly guessing the opponent's Sceptile set can lead to disaster unless you bring a counter and/or check for each set, or have one of just a few mons that can deal with both.

    Sceptile's other big issue is the lack of recovery and passivity most of its counters have. Most of them can be lured in, and they are worn down by hazards and repeatedly checking Sceptile. Things like Sliggoo have shot up in usage thanks to Sceptile. Yes, Sliggoo has other uses, like checking fire types, but it reminds me of Mantine in the Typh-Rupt meta, and how once those two threats left, Mantine fell to the wayside since its primary reason for use was how it could check those two specific threats better than anything else. Sliggoo is similar to me; people are using it as a fire check now not because it's the top fire check around, but because of Sceptile.

    The primary arguments against banning Sceptile relate to its subpar bulk and how easy it is to wear down. As far as bulk goes, it might give Sceptile a harder time switching in, but once it's in, something is dying, or at the very least being forced out so something else gets chunked. In this respect it is very similar to Sawk to me, who most of the time didn't want to switch into attacks that even Sceptile could take so as to preserve its Sturdy, but it dealt a lot of damage once it was in. Plus, while priority might be fairly prominent in the tier (partly thanks to Sceptile), it won't be taking a lot of hits since the only things that outspeed it are Swellow and some Scarf users. Sceptile wears down pretty fast between hazards and Life Orb, but its checks and counters suffer from this much more. Not only do they have to potentially switch into hazards each time they check Sceptile, but Leaf Storm (or an appropriate coverage move) is going to do a lot of damage even to resists, severely limiting the number of times they can check Sceptile.

    Sceptile isn't a perfect Pokemon, but I believe that its unpredictability, combined with how obscure most of its counters are and how easy they are to wear down, makes Sceptile too centralizing for the NU metagame. Ban Sceptile
  25. Mega-Pokebattlerz

    Mega-Pokebattlerz

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    That is a terrible strategy, no offense. Lax Incense doesn't make you any stronger, faster or bulkier, it just lets you SOMETIMES evade an attack or two. You'll want to have a Sitrus Berry instead to activate Unburden, another thing Lax Incense can't do.

    Aside from its terribly bad and meme-y item, that moveset isn't all that shitty. Swords Dance Sceptile is a very underrated threat in NU imo and should be taken into consideration during the suspect test.
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