np: NU Stage 3 - Riders on the Storm

[Raseri]

Another top threat that was overlooked because of the RU dropdowns is Magmortar. At first glance, Charizard seems to outclass Magmortar in numerous roles, namely as a special attacker due to dual stabs and Roost, as well as a sun sweeper thanks to Solar Power. While the latter is true, Magmortar still boasts superior coverage thanks to Thunderbolt; this allows it to hit water type extremely hard. Magmortar also lacks a 4x Stealth Rock weakness which means that it can switch into walls while Rocks are on the field a lot easier. Vital Spirit makes it a more reliable counter to bulky grass by giving it the ability to avoid sleep. Lastly, a higher special attack allows Magmortar to plow through some thing easier than Charizard, such as Regirock, Miltank, and Lickilicky. Magmortar's role as a top threat in the meta has not changed much since last round. It is still one of the premier wall-breakers in the tier, and plows through any team lacking a bulky fire type or one of either Specially Defensive Seismitoad/Quagsire or Altaria, depending on choice of Hidden Power. I've run over so many teams with Magmortar alone simply because people have dismissed it as a threat and use a bulky water such as Lapras or Wartortle to check fire types.

Magmortar is definitely a top-tier threat this meta but surprisingly I've seen very few of them. Interestingly enough Hidden Power Ice seems to be far more common this round than last even on non sun teams. On a lot of teams I do have a preference of Charizard because of his access to Roost. Roost is the only thing that sets Charizard apart from Magmortar on non-sun teams. Roost alone is enough for me to love Charizard; it's a great move to heal on obvious Absol Sucker Punches, and you can even heal off Stealth Rock if you failed to get it off the field.

But back to Magmortar: The most common set seems to be Fire Blast / Focus Blast / Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Ice. Am I the only one seeing a lot of HP Ice Mortars or is it actually happening? Because I'd love to switch my Quagsire into Magmortar again, instead of having to rely on such shaky checks. Magmortar is without a doubt one of the hardest Pokemon to switch into. It is in fact much harder to switch into compared to Charizard. It really deserves more use

 

[Cherub Agent]

I mainly use Hidden Power Ice on my Magmortar (a true powerhouse if there ever was one) for Altaria, 1) because it's Specially Defensive set has become common in order to counter Charizard, 2) because if an offensive Altaria manages to nab a Dragon Dance, my team will be put under a lot of pressure, and 3) because Quagsire is practically a free switch into the still monstruous Specs Exeggutor, allowing me to fire off a Leaf Storm blindly, and heavily dent, if not outright OHKO, another one of my opponents' Pokemon.

 

[Steamroll]

I'm dissapointed in the fact that so many people still bite the bait with sucker punch golem, especially with Sawk...

 

[Raseri]

What do you guys think of SubNP Misdreavus? it is fast, relatively strong, has solid coverage and great bulk. I've started using it and it has been solid. But I have little experience with it so far and am looking for some other opinions. I feel ghost-types are really unexplored. Lampent and Frillish also seem interesting to me, if anyone here has experience with them I would appreciate knowing if they are worth it in this meta.

 

[Griff]

I have not tried it. I only have used the standard defensive set. How did you teambuild around it?

 

[Django]

SubNP Missy is amazing. It can set up on so much and no one really expects it. Its also a nasty surprise for Sawsbuck who think they can switch in and Sub up. Blocking status is really really fun, but you could probably run Taunt over Substitute and be even more annoying to stall teams.

Frillish is OK, but not really worth using over Misdreavus. It has a hard time spinblocking against defensive Cryogonal, but does pretty well against Torkoal / Armaldo. Outside of spinblocking its pretty eh, does a decent job at checking Sawk/other fighting types but there are still better options. I also really don't think Lampent is worth considering, outside of Flash Fire it gets very little to make me want to use it.

 

[Raseri]

I have not tried it. I only have used the standard defensive set. How did you teambuild around it?

Spikes support is really whats making it great for me; a long with Stealth Rock it really decimates stall teams.


@Django: What draws me to Lampent is Trick Room. It has a respectable Special Attack, Fire Blast and TR. It probably isn't that good but I find it intriguing, actually i find Trick Room as a whole intriguing but I feel Absol does to good at stopping it for it to be viable. I will try it out though

 

[Django]

Yeah I tried a Trick Room team myself recently, and the biggest drawback it had was all the setters are completely destroyed by Absol. I think Porygon is about the only thing that gets TR and has a fighting chance against Absol. As for using Lampent as a setter, it seems OK, but not stellar. Musharna and Exeggutor both already do a great job at setting it up and I don't see Lampent muscling either of them out of a teamslot. Furthermore, one of the best Pokemon under Trick Room I found was Emboar, and I really would not want to burden a team with that many shared weaknesses.

I may be completely wrong however, but I would be pretty impressed if Lampent is actually successful.

 

[kniteowl]

^ Carry Gurrdur if you have trouble with Absol, Gurrdur works pretty well in trick room as well. If you're looking for another non-psychic/ghost trick room setter, Audino is pretty good at it and gets regenerator too to set up multiple times.

Substitute and offensive support moves are a good way at circumventing Absol's sucker punch. Especially on your trick room sweepers like Marawak and others that don't need all their move slots for attack

Exeggutor is a great trick room abuser and has sleep powder to put absol out of commission as long as trick room is up Absol isn't carrying a lum berry

 

[Raseri]

IRC Discussions today brought a huge threat to my attention that never truly occured to me before.

Choice Band Braviary.
Base 123 Attack with an Adamant nature and Choice Band has almost no viable switch-ins. The drop in speed is notable(fails to outspeed positive nature base 70's) but the set is in hide tags below

Hide

Braviary (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- U-turn
- Frustration
- Superpower
- Brave Bird

Keen Eye is chosen because Sheer Force doesn't boost any of the moves, so protecting against random accuracy drops is better.

I've also composed a list of Pokemon that can avoid the 2HKO from this Braviary no matter what.

Hide

Metang.
Luxray(like 95% of the time)

That means technically Metang is the only one, though 252/252+ Luxray came close enough i decided to count it

Defensive Metang takes 30.86 - 36.41% from Superpower and that will only depreciate each consecutive attack. Luxray can Avoid the 2HKO if Stealth Rock isn't up but if it is, gg Luxray.


And a list of Pokemon that can switch in, tank a hit and proceed to OHKO Braviary(assuming Stealth Rock and defence drops if Superpower was the move used)

Hide

Choice Scarf Luxray
SubRoost Articuno(If Stealth Rock is not up)
Electabuzz

if I missed any important pokemon feel free to let me know. I used Honko's mass calcs so if a new set has risen in popularity that im not aware of it could be missed.

So this raises an important question: is the ability to destroy the entire meta with the entire move enoough to push Braviary over the edge? He isn't that difficult to revenge kill. Though 100/75/75 defences are nothing to laugh about. In my mind Braviary is a nuke, whenever he switches in something will die. But he generally doesn't have the longevity to do sustained damage in the long haul.

This Braviary set has a chance to OHKO Tangela after rocks. It's weak to Brave Bird but still that is impressive.

So thoughts on Braviary? Is he a hero stopping stall from wreaking havoc? Or is his bravery going to get him banned?

 

[jake]

IRC Discussions today brought a huge threat to my attention that never truly occured to me before.

Since DTC seems to have fallen asleep without posting them (and also because I don't think there are any bigger plans for them), I'll go ahead and post the Senate discussion logs. Over half of the Senate didn't make it including myself :x, so we really need to do better on that next time lol. Without further ado. . .

Charizard discussion

01[15:02] <@NatGeo> i say we do charizard to get it over with
[15:02] <+Limi> !!!!"!"§°!§!°"§!"^13^1"
15[15:02] * Steamroll sets mode: +v Luck
01[15:02] <@NatGeo> limi....
[15:02] <+Limi> i never see zard
[15:02] <+Luck> o
[15:02] <+Limi> i never use zard
[15:02] <+Luck> a lot of power
[15:02] <+Limi> so i can't say anything
[15:02] <+cbb> I see it all the time
[15:02] <@Steamroll> seen used
[15:02] <+Luck> what you see is irrelevant
[15:02] <+cbb> lol
[15:02] <@Steamroll> eh
[15:02] <@DTC> ok then don't
[15:02] <+Luck> usages are relevant
[15:02] <@DTC> talk about it
[15:02] <+Luck> anyway
01[15:03] <@NatGeo> ok
[15:03] <+Luck> are we starting with zard? :x
01[15:03] <@NatGeo> personally i don't find it broken
01[15:03] <@NatGeo> yes we are
[15:03] <+Limi> i shan't, dtc
[15:03] <+Luck> ok
01[15:03] <@NatGeo> i don't find it broken because:
[15:03] <@DTC> I find sun Charizard broken
01[15:03] <@NatGeo> 1) it's quad sr weak and easy to revenge kill
01[15:03] <@NatGeo> (ps this is the reason we didn't ban gorebyss)
[15:03] <+Keiran> Sun is really uncommon though
[15:03] <@DTC> Charizard isn't that easy to revenge kill
01[15:03] <@NatGeo> 2) opposing rain teams can still do a number
[15:03] <@DTC> Not everyone runs offense
[15:03] <+Limi> byss is easy to revenge kill!?
[15:03] <+Luck> ????
[15:03] <@DTC> And Gorebyss couldn't nuke stuff either
01[15:03] <@NatGeo> most people should run a scarfer anyways
[15:04] <+cbb> Specs Zard hits really really hard, 2hko'ing nearly everything, Scarf is faster than a lot of common scarfers and can easily demolish weakened teams
[15:04] <+Limi> every team is forced to carry a fucking scarfer out of a rather limited pool
[15:04] <+cbb> if anything I'd want zard banned or the specs set though
[15:04] <+cbb> *for
[15:04] <+Keiran> Scarfers are great in general anyway
01[15:04] <@NatGeo> if we're only banning it for one set i don't see why we ban it in the first place
[15:04] <+Luck> yeah Specs
[15:04] <+Luck> lol natgeo
[15:04] <@DTC> I don't think Zard is that bad outside of the sun
[15:04] <+Luck> you ban a pokemon because it's broken
[15:04] <@Steamroll> Natgeo, exca was banned for one set
[15:04] <+Luck> if one set is the broken one
[15:04] <+Luck> you ban the pokemon
[15:04] <+Ginku> if one set is broken then the pokemon is quite obviously broken too
[15:04] <@Steamroll> so was P-Z
[15:04] <+Ginku> ???
[15:04] <%Raseri> scarfzard is a great zard
01[15:04] <@NatGeo> steamroll excadrill really only HAD one viable set.....
[15:04] <@DTC> so let's talk Charizard outside of the sun
01[15:05] <@NatGeo> ok
01[15:05] <@NatGeo> so assuming that
[15:05] <+Luck> exca has 2 sets lol
[15:05] <@Steamroll> that's the point natgeo xD
01[15:05] <@NatGeo> which pokemon can tank its hits and ko it?
[15:05] <+Luck> spinner and LO sd
[15:05] <+Luck> but this is not the place to talk about it
[15:05] <+cbb> in sun its a pretty clear case imo but sun can't really be assumed at all times so we're leaving that out of here for now right??
[15:05] <+Luck> not many
[15:05] <@Steamroll> natgeo shuckle can
[15:05] <+Djangoo> Specs zard still hits really really hard outside sun
[15:05] <@Steamroll> :D
[15:05] <+Luck> if talking about zard
[15:05] <+cbb> unless the particular zard runs sunny day
01[15:05] <@NatGeo> yes cbb
[15:05] <@DTC> Why not use Magmortar outside of the sun?
[15:05] <+cbb> okay
01[15:05] <@NatGeo> yeah exactly
[15:05] <@DTC> Charizard gets STAB flying and more Speed
01[15:05] <@NatGeo> @ dtc
[15:05] <+Luck> zard is faster
[15:05] <+cbb> because base 100 is actually HUGE compared to base 83
[15:05] <+Luck> and has a 2nd stab
[15:05] <+Luck> that is a lot more useful
[15:05] <+cbb> like it outspeeds many common threats
01[15:05] <@NatGeo> charizard is very fast
[15:06] <+Luck> I mean, early game you spam air slash usually with zard
01[15:06] <@NatGeo> but there are some pokemon that can deal with it
[15:06] <@DTC> however, it's weak 4x weak to SR, has less Special Attack, has no Thunderbolt, and can't switch into sleeping moves
[15:06] <+cbb> jynx, bambi, sawk
[15:06] <+cbb> who magmortar fails to outspeed
[15:06] <+cbb> they both have their obvious merits of course
[15:06] <@DTC> Sawk is usually Adamant or scarfed
01[15:06] <@NatGeo> yea you can outspeed all of them if scarfed
[15:06] <+Limi> tbolt isn't that big
[15:06] <+cbb> Jolly CB is better than adamant js
01[15:06] <@NatGeo> assuming no sun
[15:06] <+cbb> if only for magmortar
01[15:06] <@NatGeo> tbolt is big
[15:06] <@DTC> true, but that 4x weakness to sr is huge
[15:06] <@Steamroll> zard is the 23rd fastest mon
[15:06] <@Steamroll> tied for*
01[15:06] <@NatGeo> 23rd!
[15:06] <@DTC> Magmortar isn't that common in this meta for whatever reason
[15:06] <@Steamroll> in NU
01[15:06] <@NatGeo> yeah
[15:06] <+Limi> what does it hit?
[15:06] <+Djangoo> eh, zard only needs to switch in once to wreck face
[15:06] <@DTC> it's kind of sad
[15:07] <+Limi> (noob question <_<)
[15:07] <+cbb> I don't think TBolt is _that_ big considering that its only for mantine
01[15:07] <@NatGeo> limi it hits most water-types
[15:07] <@Steamroll> because zard does it "better"
[15:07] <+cbb> air slash 2hkos all waters doesnt it?
[15:07] <+Limi> mantine lol
[15:07] <+cbb> assuming specs
[15:07] <@Steamroll> lol mantine
[15:07] <+Keiran> I honestly prefer Magmortar to 'zard
[15:07] <+Luck> yes
[15:07] <+Limi> there are no waters
[15:07] <+Limi> quag
[15:07] <+cbb> well
[15:07] <+Limi> alomomola
01[15:07] <@NatGeo> alomomola?
[15:07] <+Limi> and that's it
[15:07] <+cbb> samurott
[15:07] <+cbb> quag
[15:07] <+cbb> all get destroyed by sair slash anyway
01[15:07] <@NatGeo> yeah those
[15:07] <+cbb> so tbolt is kind of a moot point imo
[15:07] <@DTC> I like how Magmortar can just spam Fire Blast. Even resists can't take the Fire Blast's well
01[15:07] <@NatGeo> well taht's the same thign with zard
[15:07] <@DTC> Charizard's Fire Blasts are weaker
01[15:07] <@NatGeo> except faser
01[15:07] <@NatGeo> *faster
[15:07] <@DTC> And he has less chances to spam it
01[15:07] <@NatGeo> because of its hazard weakness
[15:08] <+Djangoo> show me something that mamortar 2hkos that zard won't
01[15:08] <@NatGeo> assuming no sun?
[15:08] <@DTC> k, hold on
[15:08] <+Djangoo> well zards most dangerous in sun
01[15:08] <@NatGeo> yeah
01[15:08] <@NatGeo> for now
01[15:08] <@NatGeo> we're assuming
01[15:08] <@NatGeo> no sun
[15:08] <+Djangoo> k
[15:08] <+cbb> by the way
[15:08] <+Keiran> Sun's a really inconsistent play style
05[15:08] * NatGeo is now known as NatCounciling
[15:08] <+Luck> I fail to see how couldn't Charizard be broken. To start it off, it has a very good stats distribution (base 100 speed and 109 attack), it has a great typing offensively that gives him a "brute force" stab that it's already difficult to wall (Fire Blast) + another STAB you can spam easily early game with no immunities, and the resistors fears Fblast
01[15:08] <@NatCounciling> yeah exactly keiran
[15:09] <+cbb> timid magmortar reaches 283 speed and 349 satk while modest charizard reaches 299 and 348
[15:09] <+Djangoo> lol essays
[15:09] <+cbb> they're about equal but that speed helps against stuff like sawk
[15:09] <+cbb> ENORMOUSLY
[15:09] <+Luck> bs limit
01[15:09] <@NatCounciling> lol luck
01[15:09] <@NatCounciling> anyways i guess you could say how zard is broken but
01[15:09] <@NatCounciling> sr is still really common
[15:09] <+Luck> yeah
01[15:09] <@NatCounciling> it can't switch in more than twice most of the time
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> which really hurts it
[15:10] <+Djangoo> it only needs to get in twice though
[15:10] <+cbb> yeah I see the problem
[15:10] <+Luck> and Zard OHKOs all the stealth rockers bar Sturdy abusers
[15:10] <+cbb> spinning isn't easy in NU by any means
[15:10] <+Luck> ???
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> luck most sr is set up early
[15:10] <+Limi> kecleon!
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> ?
[15:10] <+Limi> SpD miltank!
[15:10] <+Luck> lead with zard
[15:10] <+cbb> but the same applies for zards side
[15:10] <+Luck> problem solved
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> limi miltank is 2KOed
[15:10] <@DTC> Charizard doesn't OHKO the most common Regirock varient
[15:10] <+Luck> there's wifi clause
[15:10] <+cbb> they'll have SR up as well
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> luck they still get it up
[15:10] <+cbb> which means it can come in twice
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> and besides
[15:10] <+Limi> is it
[15:10] <+cbb> and kill two pokes
[15:10] <+cbb> after which is has done its job
[15:10] <+cbb> pretty much
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> most sr setters
[15:10] <+Limi> ehh i'm out
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> w/ sturdy
09[15:10] * +Limi (just@be.different.be.daring.be.crazy) has left #nucouncil
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> beat zard
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> 1v1
[15:10] <@DTC> 68.13 - 80.76%
01[15:10] <@NatCounciling> mostly golem anyways
[15:10] <+Luck> that's why I wrote "bar sturdy abuse"
[15:10] <@DTC> and we all know how fblast sucks dick
01[15:11] <@NatCounciling> !
[15:11] <+Luck> lolk
[15:11] <+Luck> fire blast on specszard is amazing
01[15:11] <@NatCounciling> ok anyways
01[15:11] <@NatCounciling> sr is really common and its not that hard to keep up
[15:11] <+Luck> the speed is what sets it apart from other strong attackers such as Emboar
[15:11] <@DTC> nah I mean focus blast
[15:12] <+Keiran> The only decent spinner is Cryo
01[15:12] <@NatCounciling> hence all you really need is sr + faster mon / sucker punch
[15:12] <+Luck> also there are other zard sets
[15:12] <@DTC> not fire blast, although that misses a lot too
[15:12] <+Djangoo> the thing is the charizard user WILL have a way to keep sr away
[15:12] <@DTC> I like life orb charizard the best
01[15:12] <@NatCounciling> yeah dtc
[15:12] <+Djangoo> marowak or a spinner
[15:12] <+Luck> yeah nat
[15:12] <@DTC> with roost
[15:12] <+Luck> those are 2 pokes in your team
01[15:12] <@NatCounciling> and the thing is
01[15:12] <@NatCounciling> most sun teams
01[15:12] <@NatCounciling> don't carry a spinner
[15:12] <+Luck> just for zard
[15:12] <@DTC> it isn't so reliant on sr users
01[15:12] <@NatCounciling> at elast in my experience
[15:12] <@DTC> err
[15:12] <@DTC> rapid spinning
[15:12] <@DTC> and keeping sr away
[15:12] <+Luck> LO roost zard
01[15:12] <@NatCounciling> and even on non weather teams w/ charizard
[15:12] <+Luck> is another great set
01[15:12] <@NatCounciling> rapid spin is tough to pull off
01[15:12] <@NatCounciling> yeah lo roost is a cool set
[15:12] <@DTC> I don't like that specs you usually only have 1-2 shots
[15:13] <+Keiran> I've only used Scarf
[15:13] <+cbb> well specs will mostly get two kills
[15:13] <@DTC> Although it can take down a Pokemon or two with good prediction -- possibly even more
[15:13] <+cbb> if you do it right
01[15:13] <@NatCounciling> scarf doesn't get quite as many KO's
[15:13] <+cbb> even with SR
01[15:13] <@NatCounciling> but its hella fast
[15:13] <+cbb> at which point it has done tis job
[15:13] <+cbb> *its
01[15:13] <@NatCounciling> yeah
[15:13] <+Keiran> I use it because it outspeeds everything, sans like scarfccino
01[15:13] <@NatCounciling> which is good!
[15:13] <@Steamroll> the thing I didn't like about zard
[15:13] <@Steamroll> was that if you played it right
[15:13] <@DTC> wow, wartortle counters non-sun zard
[15:13] <@Steamroll> nothing could stand to it
[15:14] <@DTC> meh it sucks
[15:14] <+Keiran> DTC
[15:14] <+Luck> wartortle excellent poke
[15:14] <@Steamroll> fuck wartortle @_@
[15:14] <+cbb> wartortle the best
[15:14] <+Keiran> its scald does 45%
[15:14] <@Steamroll> ^
01[15:14] <@NatCounciling> steamroll
01[15:14] <@NatCounciling> any mon played right
[15:14] <+Keiran> if charizard has roost
01[15:14] <@NatCounciling> is good
[15:14] <+Keiran> 'zard wins
01[15:14] <@NatCounciling> that can be applied to anything
[15:14] <+Luck> zard wins vs anything
[15:14] <@Steamroll> Nat I mean with rocks up
[15:14] <@DTC> usually roost zard uses lo
[15:14] <@Steamroll> ^
01[15:14] <@NatCounciling> yea
[15:14] <@DTC> also wartortle carries toxic
[15:14] <@Steamroll> I didn't like using roost on zard tbh
[15:14] <+Luck> yeah
[15:14] <@DTC> because it can't do much otherwise
[15:14] <+Luck> and when zard is in Blaze range
01[15:14] <@NatCounciling> yeah steamroll
[15:14] <+Luck> wartortle dies
[15:14] <@Steamroll> once you switched it in
[15:14] <+Luck> amazing gameplan
01[15:14] <@NatCounciling> i just find it way too frail
[15:15] <+Luck> you'll have to toxic
[15:15] <+Luck> then rest stall
[15:15] <@Steamroll> it was pretty much dead at the end
[15:15] <+Luck> good way to beat zard
[15:15] <@Steamroll> and the amount of damage you did
[15:15] <@Steamroll> really gave you an upper hand
01[15:15] <@NatCounciling> yeah
[15:15] <+cbb> the fact that you even have to use wartortle to beat zard is
[15:15] <+cbb> kind of stupid in my opinion
[15:15] <@Steamroll> sad///
[15:15] <+Djangoo> yeah
[15:15] <@DTC> Charizard's air slash to Wartortle: 28.26 - 33.54%
[15:15] <@DTC> nah that's only one check
[15:15] <+cbb> even as a spinner its pretty bad
[15:15] <@Steamroll> lol
[15:15] <+Djangoo> considering wartortle as a legit mon is just wrong
[15:15] <@DTC> there isn't much more than that, unfortunately
[15:15] <@Steamroll> less than
[15:15] <@Steamroll> 1% chance
[15:15] <@Steamroll> to 3hko
[15:15] <@Steamroll> THAT is sad
[15:15] <+cbb> flinch
[15:15] <+cbb> gg
01[15:16] <@NatCounciling> its a decent mon
[15:16] <+Keiran> lol
[15:16] <@DTC> dragonair, grumpig, quagsire, flareon
01[15:16] <@NatCounciling> i mean if you have to use it as a counter to non sun charizard
01[15:16] <@NatCounciling> so be it
[15:16] <@Steamroll> flareon is a good special check
[15:16] <+cbb> doesn't flareon die to specs
[15:16] <@Steamroll> at least HP rock 2hkos
[15:16] <+Luck> no
[15:16] <+Djangoo> needs sun to beat flareon
[15:16] <@Steamroll> no it doesn't
[15:16] <+Luck> but flareon can't do shit back
[15:16] <+Luck> oh
[15:16] <+cbb> oh
[15:16] <+Luck> hp rock flareon
01[15:16] <@NatCounciling> or just
01[15:16] <@NatCounciling> wish + protect
01[15:16] <@NatCounciling> stalling
[15:16] <@DTC> Charizard's Air Slash to Flareon: 32.63 - 38.92%
[15:16] <+Luck> amazing set
[15:16] <+cbb> k
[15:16] <@DTC> yeah flareon needs toxic or hp rock to bet it lol
[15:16] <+Luck> air slash has 30% to flinch
[15:16] <+Luck> js
[15:16] <+Djangoo> I actually ran hp rock flareon
[15:16] <+cbb> yeah i wasn't sure about that one
[15:16] <+Keiran> specs in sun is virtually non-existent
[15:16] <+Djangoo> lol
[15:16] <@Steamroll> luck I used it to good success
[15:16] <@DTC> beat*
[15:16] <@DTC> which is kind of sads
[15:16] <@DTC> sad*
[15:16] <@Steamroll> when people didn't switch zard out
[15:16] <@Steamroll> xD
[15:17] <+cbb> actually it needs hp rock
[15:17] <+cbb> to beat LO roost
[15:17] <@Steamroll> to beat any zard tbh
[15:17] <+cbb> otherwise you'll just get stalled out of wishtect
[15:17] <+Luck> subtoxic zard, anyone???
[15:17] <+Djangoo> lol sub toxic zard
[15:17] <@DTC> I tried sub roost toxic
[15:17] <@Steamroll> rather would subSD
01[15:17] <@NatCounciling> we're deciding tiering not theorymoning -_-
[15:17] <@DTC> not very good lol
01[15:17] <@NatCounciling> sub sd isn't that good haha
[15:17] <@Steamroll> eh
01[15:17] <@NatCounciling> most physical sets don't work from my experiaence
[15:17] <@DTC> http://www.honko2.freehosting.com/coverage_calc.html
01[15:17] <@NatCounciling> dragon dance =[
[15:17] <+cbb> yeah the physical sets are kind of underwhelming
[15:18] <+cbb> for me
01[15:18] <@NatCounciling> even with that attack
[15:18] <+cbb> the special sets are the real threats
01[15:18] <@NatCounciling> specs mostly!
[15:18] <+Luck> they are cool because they get some kills here and there but yeah, special sets (mainly specs and LO roost) are the most threatening ones
01[15:18] <@NatCounciling> which is really weak to sr....
01[15:18] <@NatCounciling> which brings me back to my point!
01[15:18] <@NatCounciling> a lot of offensive mons / sr check zard nicely
[15:18] <+Luck> sunny day is a threat but not that used
01[15:18] <@NatCounciling> yeah luck
[15:18] <+Djangoo> on the point of sr
[15:19] <+Luck> I mean, of course you should account it, but heh
[15:19] <+Djangoo> the charizard user is going to have some sort of support to get rid of / prevent sr
[15:19] <+Luck> natu
[15:19] <+Djangoo> its going to go up sometimes, but not every match
[15:19] <@DTC> there aren't many good sr users
[15:19] <@Steamroll> natu natu!
[15:19] <@DTC> err
01[15:19] <@NatCounciling> golem maybe?
[15:19] <@DTC> rapid spin
01[15:19] <@NatCounciling> yeah dtc i was about to say haha
01[15:19] <@NatCounciling> anyways:
[15:19] <+Djangoo> you don't need spin
[15:19] <+Luck> delibird
[15:19] <+Djangoo> something like marowak
[15:19] <@Steamroll> prankster taunters!
[15:19] <+Djangoo> or CB Rampardos
01[15:19] <@NatCounciling> rapid spin isn't too very common in nu atm
[15:19] <@Steamroll> MURKROW :D
[15:19] <+cbb> they all fail
01[15:19] <@NatCounciling> so charizard isn't getting that support
[15:19] <+cbb> against regirock
[15:19] <+cbb> just saying
[15:19] <@DTC> lol murkrow sucks
01[15:19] <@NatCounciling> and on sun
[15:19] <@DTC> you taunt the rock-type and it kills youy
[15:19] <@DTC> you*
[15:20] <@Steamroll> lol
01[15:20] <@NatCounciling> you have no rapid spinners whatsoever p much
[15:20] <+Luck> well the point is
[15:20] <+Luck> if they see zard in your team
[15:20] <+cbb> even if you do
[15:20] <@Steamroll> FS taunt liepard
[15:20] <@Steamroll> :D
[15:20] <+Luck> they'll try to get SR up
[15:20] <+Luck> asap
[15:20] <+Luck> also
[15:20] <@Steamroll> ^
[15:20] <+Luck> use taunt bibarel
[15:20] <+Luck> problem solved
[15:20] <+cbb> misdreavus is common and cockblocks every spinner except wartortle and SD lum berry armaldo
[15:20] <+Djangoo> it may not be common in NU but the charizard teams will have it
[15:20] <@Steamroll> they lead with the setter tbh
[15:20] <@Steamroll> if you run zard
01[15:20] <@NatCounciling> yeah
01[15:20] <@NatCounciling> getting sr up
[15:20] <+Djangoo> so you can lead with something that stops the setter
01[15:20] <@NatCounciling> is the main thing
01[15:20] <@NatCounciling> and the most common sr setters are golem and armaldo in my experience
[15:20] <@Steamroll> djangoo that's what I usually do :P
[15:21] <+Luck> so to check zard I'd need a: SR b: a spin blocker OR hope my opp isn't supporting zard?
[15:21] <+cbb> I see regirock a lot
[15:21] <@DTC> also guys, keep in mind this is just a preliminary council meeting; there won't be any votes until after the 3rd council meeting
01[15:21] <@NatCounciling> ye
[15:21] <+cbb> nothing but taunt really stops regirock
[15:21] <+cbb> from getting up SR
[15:21] <+Luck> taunt Sawk
[15:21] <@Steamroll> thunder wave cbb
01[15:21] <@NatCounciling> luck is taunt sawk common?
[15:21] <@Steamroll> amphy is great for it
01[15:21] <@NatCounciling> no! :P
[15:21] <+cbb> yeah well
[15:21] <@Steamroll> :D
[15:21] <+Luck> no
[15:21] <+cbb> so zard is pretty much
[15:21] <+cbb> split opinions?
[15:22] <+Djangoo> well considering Regirock is probably going to be their zard check
[15:22] <+Luck> yeah looks like
[15:22] <+Djangoo> you can just cripple it as it sets up sr
[15:22] <+Keiran> quick poll?
01[15:22] <@NatCounciling> altaria is probably the best zard check
[15:22] <+Djangoo> and zard then rapes anyway
[15:22] <+Luck> regirock loves switching into focus blast
[15:22] <+Luck> you guys forget that
[15:22] <+Luck> after 2 sr switch ins
01[15:22] <@NatCounciling> since a) it can switch in on fire blast and anything besides hp ice
[15:22] <+Luck> you activate blaze
[15:22] <@DTC> I'm more threatened by LO Charizard
[15:22] <+cbb> BLAZE
[15:22] <@DTC> Because it can Roost off damage and switch attacks
[15:22] <+Luck> blaze zard outright blasts everything bar flareon
[15:22] <+Luck> and other flash firers
[15:22] <+Djangoo> yeah if you can get it in blaze range something dies
[15:22] <+cbb> but yeah I think both are amazing sets
[15:22] <@DTC> Rapidash is pretty common
01[15:22] <@NatCounciling> the most common set is solar power....
01[15:23] <@NatCounciling> ?
[15:23] <@Steamroll> if you get in blaze range
[15:23] <+Luck> yeah and rapidas can't switch into air slash
[15:23] <@DTC> That's in the sun natgeo
[15:23] <@Steamroll> carry something that walls fire moves
[15:23] <+Djangoo> I wouldn't run solar power outside sun
[15:23] <+Luck> also if you don't run sun
[15:23] <+Luck> there's no point in using solar power
01[15:23] <@NatCounciling> oh ok dtc
[15:23] <+Luck> unless you are like, desperate to revenge kill sunny day sweepers with scarfzard
[15:23] <@DTC> yeah rapidash is a bit risky if sr is up
[15:23] <@DTC> it takes like 70% minimum from specs air slash
[15:23] <+Luck> how much does dash take
[15:23] <+Luck> oh
[15:23] <@DTC> 71.95 - 84.5%
[15:23] <+Luck> yeah see
[15:24] <+Luck> not a good switch in
[15:24] <+cbb> 252SpAtk Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard (Neutral) Air Slash vs 4HP/0SpDef Flash Fire Rapidash (Neutral): 71% - 84% (195 - 231 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
[15:24] <+cbb> bs
[15:24] <+cbb> dtc ninja
[15:24] <@Steamroll> especially if you can't get rid of rocks
[15:24] <@DTC> but it's not like charizard will have perfect prediction every time
[15:24] <@Steamroll> ...
[15:24] <+Luck> yeah granted
[15:24] <+Luck> but air slash is the move you spam
[15:24] <+Luck> early game
[15:24] <+Luck> usually
[15:24] <+Djangoo> neither side will have perfect prediction
[15:24] <%Raseri> ok so where are we in the discussion>
[15:24] <%Raseri> i got dragged into the PO WCOP
01[15:24] <@NatCounciling> i think we're still where we started :P
[15:24] <+Djangoo> lol
[15:24] <+Luck> charizard
[15:24] <@DTC> we're discussing our thoughts on charz
[15:24] <+Luck> lol
01[15:24] <@NatCounciling> i.e. split!
[15:24] <@DTC> charizard*
[15:25] <+Luck> yeah what nat said
[15:25] <+cbb> they're more likely to switch rapidash into it than something that can take air slash
[15:25] <+cbb> such as a steel type or whatever
[15:25] <+cbb> lol
[15:25] <+Luck> yeah
[15:25] <+Luck> the problem with zard is that what walls air slash
[15:25] <+Luck> loses to fire blast
[15:25] <@DTC> I switch probopass in on zard all the time
[15:25] <@DTC> !
[15:25] <+Luck> or focus blast at worst
[15:25] <+cbb> probopass strong
[15:25] <%Raseri> focus blast doesnt seem that common
[15:25] <+Luck> lol
01[15:25] <@NatCounciling> yeah what dtc said
[15:25] <%Raseri> from what ive seen
01[15:25] <@NatCounciling> air slash is easy to take, and there a few mons that can handle a fire blast
01[15:25] <@NatCounciling> etc. etc. and vice versa
01[15:26] <@NatCounciling> on that note people need to use spDef altaria more :D
[15:26] <+Luck> what
[15:26] <@Steamroll> I never see zards running Fblast any more...
[15:26] <+Luck> fire blast air slash focus blast hp ice
[15:26] <@Steamroll> it's odd
[15:26] <+Luck> I've always used that
[15:26] <+Luck> it's not
[15:26] <@DTC> specs fire blast does this much damage to probo: 43.2 - 51.23%
[15:26] <+Luck> you hit the rock types
[15:26] <+Luck> lol
[15:26] <+Djangoo> what else would you run?
[15:26] <+cbb> gdi stop ninja'ing me dtc
[15:26] <+Luck> iron tail
[15:26] <+Luck> to hit shuckle
[15:26] <@DTC> use honko's calculator cbb
[15:26] <@DTC> it's good at mess calcs
[15:26] <@DTC> http://www.honko2.freehosting.com/coverage_calc.html
[15:26] <+cbb> oh that one
[15:26] <@DTC> mass*
[15:26] <@DTC> there is no zard set on site though
[15:26] <@DTC> so you'll have to click like uu charizard and edit the details to fit nu
[15:26] <+cbb> that said
[15:26] <+cbb> whats the typical specs zard anyway
[15:26] <+cbb> fire blast/air slash/focus blast/hp grass??
[15:26] <+Luck> what's hp grass gotr
[15:26] <@DTC> fire blast / air slash / focus blast / hp ice/grass
[15:26] <+Luck> for*
[15:27] <+cbb> because you might as well run hp ice
01[15:27] <@NatCounciling> waters
[15:27] <+Luck> hp grass is from DP NU
[15:27] <@DTC> quagsire and whiscahs I guess
[15:27] <+cbb> just to donk altaria
[15:27] <+Luck> because there was gastrodon
[15:27] <@DTC> whiscash*
01[15:27] <@NatCounciling> hp ice yeah
[15:27] <+Luck> lol
[15:27] <@DTC> hp ice kills altaria which is really useful
[15:27] <+cbb> whiscash doesn't stand a faint chance to survive 2 air slashes
[15:27] <+Luck> whiscash dies to 2 air slashes I believe
[15:27] <+Keiran> quagsire isn't that common ne more
[15:27] <+Luck> bs ninjas
01[15:27] <@NatCounciling> since that's p much its only 100% ccounter otherwise
[15:27] <+Luck> quagsire
01[15:27] <@NatCounciling> also jesus christ im lagging
[15:27] <+cbb> and yeah sdef quagsire is really rare
[15:27] <+Luck> can't even switch into fire blast
[15:27] <+cbb> physical dies to air slash too
[15:27] <@DTC> technichally grumpig counters it
01[15:27] <@NatCounciling> so i might not respond as fast
[15:27] <@DTC> but lol grumpig
[15:27] <+cbb> grumpig is cool
01[15:27] <@NatCounciling> dtc i think you're still 2KOed ?_?
[15:27] <+Luck> grumpig is ok
[15:27] <+cbb> actually not so much with absol
[15:27] <%Raseri> ^^
[15:27] <+Luck> twave/heal bell
[15:27] <@DTC> 29.94 - 35.71%
[15:27] <+Luck> err yeah absol is nu too forgot
01[15:28] <@NatCounciling> in or out of sun?
[15:28] <+cbb> strong
[15:28] <@DTC> Grumpig is a good utility check
01[15:28] <@NatCounciling> i see
[15:28] <@DTC> outside
01[15:28] <@NatCounciling> ok
[15:28] <+Luck> roasting pigs with fire blast all day
01[15:28] <@NatCounciling> well
[15:28] <@DTC> but it doesn't do much outside of that with other psychic-types in the tier
[15:28] <@DTC> like mushy
01[15:28] <@NatCounciling> ^
[15:28] <+Luck> well
[15:28] <+Luck> it has heal bell
[15:28] <+Luck> though
[15:28] <+Luck> and focus blast
[15:28] <+cbb> it's HUGE absol bait
[15:28] <+cbb> js
[15:28] <@DTC> gardevoir too
[15:28] <+Luck> yeah
[15:28] <+Luck> ik
[15:28] <@DTC> but grumpig is bulkier
11[15:28] * +Djangoo (~chatzilla@synIRC-7AD2947D.range86-149.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Ping timeout)
[15:29] <+Luck> garde is better in everything i think
[15:29] <+Luck> although lacks thick fat
01[15:29] <@NatCounciling> except bulk
[15:29] <@Steamroll> best zard check: MANtine
[15:29] <@DTC> thick fat is a useful niche
[15:29] <@Steamroll> :P
[15:29] <+Luck> trace is cool but useless vs zard
[15:29] <@Steamroll> ^
01[15:29] <@NatCounciling> steamroll more like altriaMAN
[15:29] <+cbb> yeah mantine and mantyke counter zard
[15:29] <+cbb> !
[15:29] <+Keiran> FAGTINE
01[15:29] <@NatCounciling> but
01[15:29] <@NatCounciling> who uses those?
[15:29] <+Luck> mad at strongtine
01[15:29] <@NatCounciling> only common check
[15:29] <+cbb> no one
01[15:29] <@NatCounciling> is altaria
[15:29] <@Steamroll> and then zard runs HP electric
[15:29] <@Steamroll> :P
[15:29] <@DTC> ok I think we've discussed zard enough for now
[15:29] <@Steamroll> yeah
[15:29] <@DTC> let's move on
[15:29] <+cbb> ataria is really shaky
01[15:29] <@NatCounciling> ok anyways
[15:29] <@Steamroll> on to sawsbuck?
[15:29] <+cbb> ok then
[15:29] <@DTC> actually, one more thing:
01[15:29] <@NatCounciling> ok
[15:30] <@DTC> locking yourself into hp ice sucks
[15:30] <@Steamroll> on to sawsbuck?
[15:30] <+Luck> lol
[15:30] <@DTC> and remember something can just set-up on you when you switch
01[15:30] <@NatCounciling> yeah dtc
[15:30] <+Luck> locking yourself sucks most of the times
[15:30] <@DTC> ok sorry about that
[15:30] <@DTC> right
01[15:30] <@NatCounciling> and 4x sr weak...
01[15:30] <@NatCounciling> so SAWSBUC

Sawsbuck discussion

<@DTC> jynx or sawsbuck?
01[15:30] <@NatCounciling> sawsbuck
[15:30] <@Steamroll> BAMBI!
[15:30] <+Luck> kk saucebuck
01[15:30] <@NatCounciling> hmm
[15:30] <@Steamroll> base 100
01[15:30] <@NatCounciling> this one im on the fence on
[15:30] <+cbb> bambi is amazing
[15:30] <@Steamroll> is really good for it :P
01[15:30] <@NatCounciling> its fast, chlorophyll, SD
[15:30] <+cbb> it has a great speed tier, great movepool, good attack
01[15:30] <@NatCounciling> yeah its basically one of the fastest mons in the tier w/ SD
[15:30] <+cbb> amazing stab coverage
01[15:30] <@NatCounciling> BUT
01[15:30] <@NatCounciling> its frail
[15:31] <@Steamroll> it 2hko's regi with horn leech :O
[15:31] <+Luck> also can run LO and recover
[15:31] <@DTC> I think Sawsbuck is potentially broken without sun support
01[15:31] <@NatCounciling> ^
[15:31] <@Steamroll> it goes through absol
01[15:31] <@NatCounciling> oh yeah
01[15:31] <@NatCounciling> nature power
[15:31] <+cbb> Sawsbuck is a HUGE offensive force
[15:31] <+Keiran> I haven't actually played a Sawsbuck this round yet
[15:31] <%Raseri> sawsbuck is amazingwith sap sipper
[15:31] <+Keiran> o_o
[15:31] <@DTC> I don't think chloro Sawsbuck is that bad
01[15:31] <@NatCounciling> i guess
01[15:31] <@NatCounciling> its really fast though
01[15:31] <@NatCounciling> like
[15:31] <@DTC> The best Sawsbuck checks are Poison-types
[15:31] <@DTC> lol
01[15:31] <@NatCounciling> REALLY fast
[15:31] <+cbb> does sawsbuck even have a real counter assuming
01[15:31] <@NatCounciling> dtc nature power?
[15:31] <+Luck> dtc
[15:31] <+cbb> SD/Double-Edge/Horn Leech/Nature Power
[15:31] <+Luck> bs nat ninja'd me
[15:31] <+cbb> @ LO?
[15:31] <%Raseri> hp ice tangela
[15:31] <@DTC> Amoonguss
[15:31] <+Luck> y
01[15:31] <@NatCounciling> yeah raseri
[15:31] <+Luck> strong set
[15:31] <@DTC> Golbat
01[15:31] <@NatCounciling> nah
[15:31] <+Luck> amoongus
01[15:31] <@NatCounciling> how much does
[15:31] <+Luck> dies to +2 double edge
[15:31] <+Luck> lol
01[15:31] <@NatCounciling> frustration?
01[15:31] <@NatCounciling> oh right double edge
[15:31] <+Luck> or takes like 80%
[15:32] <@DTC> bambi needs lo too iirc
01[15:32] <@NatCounciling> yeah basically its POWERFUL
[15:32] <@DTC> but it does like 95%
01[15:32] <@NatCounciling> dtc i think LO is the most common item
[15:32] <@DTC> at least
[15:32] <@DTC> I don't like lo double-edge
[15:32] <+cbb> 252Atk Life Orb +2 Sawsbuck (Neutral) Double-Edge vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Golbat (+Def): 72% - 85% (255 - 301 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
[15:32] <+cbb> nice counter
[15:32] <@DTC> it kills bambi so fast
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01[15:32] <@NatCounciling> in other words
[15:32] <@DTC> I mean, you have Horn Leech
[15:32] <@DTC> But still
[15:32] <+cbb> LO double-edge really wrecks face though
[15:32] <+Luck> 252Atk Life Orb +2 Sawsbuck (+Atk) Double-Edge vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Amoonguss (+Def): 96% - 114% (418 - 495 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 81% chance to OHKO.
01[15:32] <@NatCounciling> basically no defensive counters to sawsbuck?
[15:32] <+cbb> and you can mostly recover with horn leech
[15:32] <+Luck> another amazing counter
[15:32] <+cbb> against one poke at least
[15:32] <@DTC> drifblim
[15:32] <@DTC> unless you run wild charge
01[15:32] <@NatCounciling> lol
01[15:32] <@NatCounciling> oh right driflbim
[15:32] <+Luck> lol wild charge
[15:32] <+cbb> 252Atk Life Orb +2 Sawsbuck (Neutral) Double-Edge vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Levitate Weezing (+Def): 80% - 95% (270 - 319 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
[15:32] <+cbb> !!
01[15:32] <@NatCounciling> how much does horn leech do
01[15:32] <@NatCounciling> after sr?
[15:32] <+cbb> yeah drifblim
12[15:32] * Djangoo_ (~chatzilla@synIRC-F48161.range109-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #nucouncil
[15:33] <+Luck> weezing isn't NU
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01[15:33] <@NatCounciling> luck it is
[15:33] <@DTC> shedinka counters sawsbuck
01[15:33] <@NatCounciling> k
[15:33] <@DTC> !
[15:33] <+Luck> I haven't seen any
01[15:33] <@NatCounciling> luck it is
[15:33] <+Luck> lolk
[15:33] <+cbb> 252Atk Life Orb +2 Sawsbuck (Neutral) Horn Leech vs 4HP/0Def Eviolite Drifblim (Neutral): 57% - 67% (252 - 297 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
[15:33] <+Luck> shedinja #1
01[15:33] <@NatCounciling> and its ANNOYING
01[15:33] <@NatCounciling> cbb
[15:33] <+cbb> thats the last bulk possible
[15:33] <+Luck> yeah I got it
[15:33] <+cbb> so it counters it at least once
[15:33] <+cbb> !
01[15:33] <@NatCounciling> why is your item
01[15:33] <@NatCounciling> always eviolite
[15:33] <+cbb> *least
01[15:33] <@NatCounciling> ?_?
[15:33] <+cbb> because I
[15:33] <+cbb> calc'd golbat first
01[15:33] <@NatCounciling> ok
[15:33] <+cbb> but it doesnt use that unless it actually has an effect
[15:33] <+cbb> I just couldn't be bothered to change items lol
01[15:33] <@NatCounciling> but i don't think most drifblim run lefties haha
[15:34] <@DTC> Armaldo tanks Bambi really well
01[15:34] <@NatCounciling> ?
[15:34] <+Luck> ???
[15:34] <+cbb> yeah they're all flight gem right now
01[15:34] <@NatCounciling> how much does horn leech do?
01[15:34] <@NatCounciling> assuming +2 / jolly
[15:34] <@Steamroll> what I do to nail bambi
[15:34] <+cbb> 252Atk Life Orb +2 Sawsbuck (Neutral) Horn Leech vs 252HP/0Def Eviolite Battle Armor Armaldo (Neutral): 74% - 88% (264 - 313 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
[15:34] <+cbb> nice tank
01[15:34] <@NatCounciling> possibly sr
[15:34] <@Steamroll> is sucker punch
[15:34] <@DTC> 53.67 - 63.55%
01[15:34] <@NatCounciling> yeah i was about to say cbb
[15:34] <+cbb> yeah well
[15:34] <@Steamroll> sturdy sucker punch
[15:34] <+cbb> the common sucker punchers
[15:34] <@DTC> most people run physically defensive armaldo
01[15:34] <@NatCounciling> steamroll
01[15:34] <@NatCounciling> nature power
[15:34] <@DTC> or 252 hp / 216 defense
[15:34] <+cbb> die to nature power
01[15:34] <@NatCounciling> goes through sucker punch
01[15:34] <@NatCounciling> so yeah
01[15:34] <@NatCounciling> !
[15:34] <+cbb> I have never seen
[15:34] <+cbb> physically defensive armaldo
15[15:34] * DTC sets mode: +v Djangoo
[15:34] <+cbb> I think
[15:34] <@DTC> really? lol
[15:34] <+Luck> sucker punch murkrow
[15:34] <@DTC> I use it most of the time
[15:35] <+cbb> unless emboar OHKO's them with head smash as well
[15:35] <@Steamroll> Nat
[15:35] <@DTC> we can't forget about hp ice/fire tangela
01[15:35] <@NatCounciling> yes?
[15:35] <@Steamroll> you forget how many people
01[15:35] <@NatCounciling> forget that?
[15:35] <@Steamroll> fall for SP golem
01[15:35] <@NatCounciling> sp?
[15:35] <+Djangoo> Tangela is probably the best sawsbuck check
[15:35] <@Steamroll> Sucker Punch >_>
[15:35] <+cbb> rock type
[15:35] <+Djangoo> and even it can lose
[15:35] <+cbb> MUST HORN LEECH
[15:35] <+cbb> etc
01[15:35] <@NatCounciling> oh haha
[15:35] <@Steamroll> ^
[15:35] <@Steamroll> exactly cbb
[15:35] <+cbb> yeah if there was a huge rise in tangela
[15:35] <+cbb> I'd run megahorn
[15:35] <+cbb> probably
[15:35] <@Steamroll> I always run megahorn
[15:35] <@DTC> I'd use megahorn on a cb set
[15:35] <+cbb> 4 attacks megahorn or whatever
[15:35] <@DTC> or wild charge
01[15:35] <@NatCounciling> yeah
[15:36] <+cbb> point is, it can hurt every single pokemon in the tier
[15:36] <@Steamroll> I don't like wild charge tbh
01[15:36] <@NatCounciling> so basically
[15:36] <+cbb> without giving up huge coverage
[15:36] <+Luck> wild charge hits only
[15:36] <+cbb> every
01[15:36] <@NatCounciling> tangela
[15:36] <+Luck> drifblim I think
[15:36] <+cbb> single
[15:36] <+cbb> one
01[15:36] <@NatCounciling> is the only defensive check
01[15:36] <@NatCounciling> w/ sr up
[15:36] <@DTC> Shelgon tanks it well
01[15:36] <@NatCounciling> but
[15:36] <@DTC> Armaldo can take a hit even with SR
[15:36] <+Luck> lol shelgon
01[15:36] <@NatCounciling> who uses shelgon
01[15:36] <@NatCounciling> ?
[15:36] <+Djangoo> shelgon does nothing back
[15:36] <%Raseri> me
[15:36] <+Djangoo> apart from toxic
[15:36] <+Djangoo> then die
[15:36] <+Luck> research week
01[15:36] <@NatCounciling> outrage i guess
01[15:36] <@NatCounciling> or dragon claw
[15:36] <+cbb> 252Atk Life Orb +2 Sawsbuck (Neutral) Megahorn vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Tangela (+Def): 74% - 87% (248 - 292 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
[15:36] <+cbb> strong
01[15:36] <@NatCounciling> cbb
01[15:36] <@NatCounciling> most common set from my experience
[15:36] <@Steamroll> how many people
[15:36] <+cbb> yeah I know
[15:36] <@DTC> false, djangoo
[15:36] <@Steamroll> run SD buck btw?
01[15:36] <@NatCounciling> sd / horn leech / de / nature
[15:36] <@Steamroll> jw
[15:36] <+cbb> nature/normal/horn leech
01[15:37] <@NatCounciling> so
01[15:37] <@NatCounciling> it would be better
01[15:37] <@NatCounciling> to calc double edge
01[15:37] <@NatCounciling> or frustration
01[15:37] <@NatCounciling> vs tangela
[15:37] <+Djangoo> ?
[15:37] <+cbb> I was just mentioning the fact
[15:37] <@DTC> it toxic's, then protects
[15:37] <@DTC> !
[15:37] <+Djangoo> then dies
[15:37] <+Djangoo> lolk
[15:37] <+cbb> that it can kill _everything_ in the tier
01[15:37] <@NatCounciling> oh ok
[15:37] <+cbb> with the right coverage move
01[15:37] <@NatCounciling> yeah but you can't run every coverage move
01[15:37] <@NatCounciling> :P
[15:37] <+cbb> yeah lol
[15:37] <+Luck> yeah I'm pretty sure bambi is broken
[15:37] <+Luck> there's a difference nat
[15:37] <+cbb> but that in return means that all checks are really shaky
[15:37] <+Luck> you aren't giving up coverage
01[15:37] <@NatCounciling> megahorn over????
[15:37] <+Luck> to put that extra move I mean
[15:37] <@DTC> LO Double-Edge will kill you pretty fast
01[15:38] <@NatCounciling> that's why
01[15:38] <@NatCounciling> i use frustration
01[15:38] <@NatCounciling> n_n
[15:38] <@DTC> Especially if you have no chance to use Horn Leech
[15:38] <+Luck> hotn leech will give you back a lot of health btw
[15:38] <@DTC> And you have to actually find time to set-up
[15:38] <+Djangoo> the funny thing is
01[15:38] <@NatCounciling> i do
[15:38] <+cbb> well if you really wanted to
[15:38] <+Luck> horn***
[15:38] <+Djangoo> you don't even need megahorn
[15:38] <@DTC> I like SubSD because it can easily set-up
[15:38] <+Djangoo> 252Atk Life Orb +2 Sawsbuck (Neutral) Return vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Tangela (+Def): 47% - 55% (157 - 186 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 17% chance to 2HKO.
01[15:38] <@NatCounciling> most water-types can't do anything
01[15:38] <@NatCounciling> at all
[15:38] <+Djangoo> if you can get an SD on the switch
01[15:38] <@NatCounciling> ^
[15:38] <+Djangoo> tangela gets donked
01[15:38] <@NatCounciling> well
01[15:38] <@NatCounciling> sleep powdder
01[15:38] <@NatCounciling> hp ice
[15:38] <+cbb> you can run CB
[15:38] <+cbb> to get all the 2hkos
01[15:38] <@NatCounciling> notwithstanding
[15:38] <@DTC> not sleep powder
[15:38] <@DTC> hp ice/fire
[15:38] <+Luck> sleep powder
[15:38] <+cbb> CB only misses out on one pokemon
[15:38] <+Luck> on sap slipepr sawsbuck
01[15:38] <@NatCounciling> why not sleep powder?
[15:38] <+Luck> good one
01[15:38] <@NatCounciling> oh right
01[15:39] <@NatCounciling> haha forgot :P
[15:39] <@DTC> I like when Tangela uses Sleep Powder on Sawsbuck
[15:39] <+Djangoo> sap sipper is the better ability
[15:39] <+cbb> drifblim without wild charge
[15:39] <+Luck> sap slipper
[15:39] <+Djangoo> imo
[15:39] <+Luck> lol
[15:39] <+cbb> tangela without megahorn
01[15:39] <@NatCounciling> i was talking about chloro
[15:39] <@DTC> Also, that's something we never addressed: Sap Sipper
01[15:39] <@NatCounciling> yeahh
01[15:39] <@NatCounciling> so basically the most common sleep moves
[15:39] <%Raseri> sap sipper is the best
[15:39] <+Luck> you aren't supposed to run chloro outside of a sun team
01[15:39] <@NatCounciling> do shit
[15:39] <+Luck> yeah
[15:39] <@DTC> it's strong enough to do a ton of damage at just +1
01[15:39] <@NatCounciling> luck that's the thing
01[15:39] <@NatCounciling> it works on both sun and non sun
[15:39] <+cbb> CB with +1 from sap sipper
01[15:39] <@NatCounciling> each is v threatening
[15:39] <+cbb> WILL kill something
[15:39] <+Luck> I know
01[15:39] <@NatCounciling> yeah cbb
[15:39] <+cbb> unless the player fucks up
[15:39] <+Luck> I was just pointing out that sap slipper is the main one imo
01[15:40] <@NatCounciling> outside of sun yeah :P
01[15:40] <@NatCounciling> so
01[15:40] <@NatCounciling> anyways
[15:40] <+Luck> well
[15:40] <@DTC> Bambi has trouble setting-up, but if it sets-up, you're going to be in a lot of trouble
01[15:40] <@NatCounciling> have we come to a consensus
01[15:40] <@NatCounciling> ?
[15:40] <+Djangoo> with sap sipper its a lot easier to set up
[15:40] <+Luck> I find it broken
[15:40] <@DTC> Unless you're incompetent at Pokemon and set-up when the opposing team has Tangela or another check
[15:40] <+cbb> also the CB set
[15:40] <+cbb> is
[15:40] <+cbb> amazing
01[15:40] <@NatCounciling> ok yeah
[15:40] <@DTC> I'm not calling anything broken yet
[15:40] <@DTC> But I'm concerned about bambi
01[15:40] <@NatCounciling> ^
[15:40] <@Steamroll> ^
[15:40] <+Djangoo> ^
01[15:40] <@NatCounciling> HA NINJA
[15:41] <+Djangoo> am I doing it right?
01[15:41] <@NatCounciling> ....
01[15:41] <@NatCounciling> ok yeah
01[15:41] <@NatCounciling> anyways
[15:41] <@Steamroll> anyways
01[15:41] <@NatCounciling> we'll discuss that again next meeting!
01[15:41] <@NatCounciling> next one!

Jynx discussion

1[15:41] <@NatCounciling> next one!
[15:41] <@DTC> you know what
[15:41] <@Steamroll> what's next?
[15:41] <@Steamroll> :o
01[15:41] <@NatCounciling> jynx?
[15:41] <@DTC> fuck tennisace, we need 9 people on the council
[15:41] <@Steamroll> sure
01[15:41] <@NatCounciling> ok
[15:41] <@DTC> yeah let's talk about jynx
01[15:41] <@NatCounciling> Jynx!
[15:41] <+cbb> Jynx is
[15:41] <@DTC> hold on I'm brb'ing for like 10 minutes
[15:41] <+cbb> annoying
[15:41] <@Steamroll> jynx has one true
01[15:41] <@NatCounciling> I don't find it *that* broken
[15:41] <@Steamroll> threatening set imo
01[15:41] <@NatCounciling> its annoying
[15:41] <+cbb> hold on as in
[15:41] <+Luck> lol
[15:41] <+cbb> stop discussing??
[15:41] <@Steamroll> and that's np
01[15:42] <@NatCounciling> yeah
[15:42] <+Djangoo> what
01[15:42] <@NatCounciling> np is what sets it apart
[15:42] <+Keiran> Cinccino is an awesome check
[15:42] <@DTC> uhh no
[15:42] <+Luck> how is NP...nvm
[15:42] <+Djangoo> the LK + 3 attacks set
[15:42] <@DTC> I mean if you highlight me and expect to answer
[15:42] <+Luck> ^
[15:42] <+Djangoo> is the most threatening
[15:42] <+cbb> it doesn't _need_ NP
[15:42] <@DTC> lol
[15:42] <+Luck> LO LK 3 attacks
01[15:42] <@NatCounciling> yeah
[15:42] <@DTC> yeah it doesn't
[15:42] <%Raseri> Cinccino is a shaky check
[15:42] <@DTC> A lot of Jynx's checks are shaky
[15:42] <+cbb> lovely kiss basically removes one counter from the game
[15:42] <+Luck> has 1 counter
[15:42] <+Luck> metang
01[15:42] <@NatCounciling> you mean
[15:42] <+Djangoo> even then
[15:42] <+cbb> thats the main thing I hate about jynx
[15:42] <+Djangoo> LK
01[15:42] <@NatCounciling> one defensive counter?
[15:42] <%Raseri> metang can lose to sleep hax
[15:42] <@DTC> like they aren't very good outside of beating jynx
[15:42] <@Steamroll> lol
[15:42] <+cbb> sleep = death in gen 5
[15:42] <@DTC> lk is gay as fuck
01[15:42] <@NatCounciling> quagsire can deal with offensive np
[15:42] <%Raseri> spdef magmar
[15:42] <+cbb> unless you have a sleep talker or magmortar
[15:42] <+Luck> mad
[15:42] <%Raseri> owns jynx
[15:42] <+cbb> or MAGMAR
[15:42] <+Luck> sdef magmar
[15:42] <@DTC> nah there is a bit more than magmar and metang
[15:42] <+Luck> loses to psyshock
[15:42] <@DTC> grumpig
[15:42] <@DTC> !
[15:42] <+Luck> although magmar is the king
[15:42] <+Luck> lol
01[15:42] <@NatCounciling> tbf
[15:42] <+Luck> grumpig is
[15:42] <@DTC> and flareon if no psyshock
[15:42] <+cbb> grumpig is setup bait
01[15:43] <@NatCounciling> there are a lot
[15:43] <+cbb> for the LK set
[15:43] <+Luck> setup fodder for subcm
[15:43] <+cbb> js
01[15:43] <@NatCounciling> of offensive checks
[15:43] <+cbb> er
[15:43] <+cbb> NP set
01[15:43] <@NatCounciling> to flareon
01[15:43] <@NatCounciling> *jynx
[15:43] <@Steamroll> lol
01[15:43] <@NatCounciling> haha why did i say flareon
[15:43] <@DTC> well it can thunder wave it and signal beam I guess
[15:43] <%Raseri> mono-attacker is still the most common set and is still very good
[15:43] <+Djangoo> well yes but
[15:43] <@Steamroll> jynx hates sucker punch tbh
[15:43] <+Djangoo> one will likely get swept
[15:43] <@Steamroll> and mons that outspeed
[15:43] <+cbb> well all the "checks" except for magmortar
[15:43] <@DTC> sub lk is pretty good too
[15:43] <+cbb> get slept
01[15:43] <@NatCounciling> there's a lot!
[15:43] <+Djangoo> and an offensive mon asleep basically means death
[15:43] <+cbb> and then you're one mon down
[15:43] <@DTC> and combination of sub lk, np lk, or lk + 3 attacks is very threatening
01[15:43] <@NatCounciling> yah
[15:43] <+Djangoo> also nothing offensive is switching in
01[15:43] <@NatCounciling> even the mono attacker set
01[15:43] <@NatCounciling> is threatening
[15:43] <+Luck> I don't like NP without sub
[15:43] <+cbb> the only thing that counters jynx
[15:43] <%Raseri> jynx is one of the hardest pokemon to handle
[15:43] <+cbb> is
[15:43] <+Luck> and even with sub...meh
[15:43] <+cbb> restalk metang
01[15:43] <@NatCounciling> but its not broken imo
[15:43] <+cbb> which is pretty sad
[15:44] <@DTC> monoattacking is annoying too
[15:44] <@DTC> but it's a lot easier to handle
01[15:44] <@NatCounciling> because of entry hazard weakness + the fact that a few mons can counter it easily
[15:44] <+Luck> well
01[15:44] <@NatCounciling> there are a lot of faster mons that can KO
[15:44] <%Raseri> "counter"
[15:44] <@DTC> nothing really counters it well
[15:44] <+cbb> counter it easily?
[15:44] <+Luck> that's because in NUthere are things like Lapras that are usable although
[15:44] <+cbb> which ones can
[15:44] <+cbb> "counter it easily"
01[15:44] <@NatCounciling> cinccino, absol if it doens't have a sub
[15:44] <@DTC> there is no doubt that jynx has counters
[15:44] <+cbb> except for champion metang
[15:44] <%Raseri> switching into jynx is the problem
[15:44] <+cbb> oh checks
01[15:44] <@NatCounciling> ^
[15:44] <@DTC> however, most of them are bad at checking jynx
[15:44] <+cbb> I thought you meant actual counters
[15:44] <@DTC> err
[15:44] <+cbb> ok
[15:44] <@DTC> bad in general
[15:44] <+Luck> yeah jynx is easy to check
01[15:44] <@NatCounciling> and that's the thing
[15:45] <%Raseri> cinccino cant switch in at all
[15:45] <+Luck> although lk + sub
[15:45] <@Steamroll> cryo
[15:45] <+Luck> is kinda problematic
[15:45] <+Keiran> METANF
01[15:45] <@NatCounciling> a lot of offensive pokemon are hard to counter
[15:45] <@Steamroll> makes a good check xP
[15:45] <%Raseri> cryo without haze can lose
[15:45] <+Luck> yeah
[15:45] <%Raseri> will lose
01[15:45] <@NatCounciling> but easy to check
[15:45] <+Luck> the problem is
[15:45] <+Luck> cryogonal
[15:45] <+cbb> really though my main problem is
[15:45] <+Luck> can't do anything back
[15:45] <+cbb> lovely kiss and sleep in general
[15:45] <@DTC> Jynx isn't that easy to check
[15:45] <@DTC> With Lovely Kiss
[15:45] <%Raseri> regice can even lose
[15:45] <@Steamroll> yeah true luck
01[15:45] <@NatCounciling> i mean
[15:45] <+cbb> being really annoying
[15:45] <+Djangoo> Lovely Kiss is what breaks jynx
01[15:45] <@NatCounciling> a smart player
[15:45] <@DTC> If Jynx didn't have Lovely Kiss I wouldn't call it broken
[15:45] <+Djangoo> imo
[15:45] <+cbb> to the point of making it uncounterable
01[15:45] <@NatCounciling> won't let their counter sleep
[15:45] <@DTC> But with Lovely Kiss, it's fucking annoying
[15:45] <+Luck> that's theorymon
[15:45] <+Luck> lol
[15:45] <+Djangoo> a smart jynx user
[15:45] <+cbb> yeah LK is the worst
[15:45] <+Luck> if it had/didn't have x
[15:45] <+Djangoo> will make sure the counter gets slept
[15:45] <+cbb> also if you don't switch to your counter
[15:45] <+Djangoo> so ok
[15:45] <@DTC> I like when you're fighting a Wartortle
[15:45] <+cbb> whats stopping it from killing the rest of the team
[15:45] <+cbb> or setting up
[15:45] <@Steamroll> it puts you in
[15:45] <@DTC> and you have jynx out
[15:46] <@Steamroll> a losing prediction tbh
[15:46] <@Steamroll> switch out and get slept?
05[15:46] * Keiran is now known as Generousa
[15:46] <@Steamroll> or stay in and get set up on?
[15:46] <+Djangoo> exactly
[15:46] <+cbb> yeah for all you know
01[15:46] <@NatCounciling> yeah
01[15:46] <@NatCounciling> but
01[15:46] <@NatCounciling> a lot of offensive teams
01[15:46] <@NatCounciling> handle jynx v easily
01[15:46] <@NatCounciling> imo
[15:46] <+Djangoo> not every team is offensive
[15:46] <+cbb> that is debatable
05[15:46] * Generousa is now known as Keiran
[15:46] <+Djangoo> and they really really dont
01[15:46] <@NatCounciling> djangoo the majority are
[15:46] <+cbb> imagine jynx comes in on say
[15:46] <+cbb> emboar
[15:46] <+Djangoo> unless everything is faster than jynx
[15:46] <+cbb> then it kills something with lovely kiss
[15:47] <+cbb> because sleep = death
01[15:47] <@NatCounciling> basically
[15:47] <@Steamroll> zard can revenge nonscarf jynx
01[15:47] <@NatCounciling> ^
[15:47] <+cbb> and then something else with ice beam/psyshock
[15:47] <@Steamroll> and yeah jynx is basically
[15:47] <@Steamroll> an auto one kill mon
[15:47] <+cbb> also if it restricts a whole playstyle
[15:47] <+cbb> aka stall
01[15:47] <@NatCounciling> but its harder to kill two +
[15:47] <+cbb> from flourishing
[15:47] <+cbb> then something is wrong
01[15:47] <@NatCounciling> cbb
01[15:47] <@NatCounciling> there are metagames
01[15:47] <@NatCounciling> where stall
01[15:47] <@NatCounciling> just doesn't work usually
[15:47] <+Luck> well let's put it this way: a healthy metagame is reached when all the playstyles are equally viable and no pokemon is particularly strong against any other playstyle, so the fact that Jynx doesn't fare TOO well
01[15:47] <@NatCounciling> and mons are still allowed?
[15:47] <+Luck> vs offense
[15:47] <+Luck> is kinda irrelevant
[15:48] <+Djangoo> yeah the reason offense is so popular is because its pretty much the only way to cover every threat
[15:48] <+Luck> what kind of metas are you talking about nat
[15:48] <+cbb> I have seen successful stall in all tiers
[15:48] <+cbb> tbh
[15:48] <+cbb> OU, RU, Ubers, UU
01[15:48] <@NatCounciling> yeah
01[15:48] <@NatCounciling> there are mons
01[15:48] <@NatCounciling> that handle jynx
[15:48] <+cbb> even NU, but it still gets wrecked by jynx
[15:48] <%Raseri> DW?
01[15:48] <@NatCounciling> on stall
01[15:48] <@NatCounciling> yeah basically raseri
01[15:48] <@NatCounciling> and lc
[15:48] <+cbb> well
[15:48] <+cbb> "handle"
[15:48] <+cbb> unless you mean metang
[15:48] <+Luck> ???
[15:48] <%Raseri> lc is stallable
[15:48] <+Luck> BW LC = stall
[15:48] <+Luck> lol
[15:48] <%Raseri> btw
[15:48] <+cbb> LC is very stallable
[15:48] <+Djangoo> what on stall beats jynx
[15:48] <+cbb> and DW _can_ be stallable too
[15:48] <+Djangoo> reliably
[15:48] <+Luck> sleeptalk metang
[15:48] <+cbb> metang django
[15:48] <+Luck> !!!!!!!!
[15:48] <+cbb> !
[15:48] <+Djangoo> and isn't shit
[15:48] <+cbb> bs
[15:48] <+Keiran> crotang is good
[15:48] <+cbb> argument invalid
[15:48] <%Raseri> it depends on the set
[15:48] <+Luck> metang strong
[15:49] <+cbb> thats another problem
[15:49] <+Ginku> what in the fuck
[15:49] <+cbb> you don't know the set
[15:49] <+Ginku> is a crotang
[15:49] <+cbb> unless its too late
[15:49] <+cbb> RESTALK HONE CLAWS
[15:49] <+cbb> gg nu
[15:49] <+Luck> lol
[15:49] <@Steamroll> lol...
[15:49] <+Luck> calm mind metang
[15:49] <+Luck> does it get it
[15:49] <+Luck> :(
[15:49] <@Steamroll> actually
[15:49] <+Keiran> ResTalk hone claws
[15:49] <+Keiran> GG.
[15:49] <+cbb> no cm
[15:49] <+cbb> o well
[15:49] <@Steamroll> if jynx isn't running sub
[15:49] <@DTC> Jynx can sweep pretty easily
[15:49] <+cbb> but yeah the 2 problems with jynx are
[15:49] <@Steamroll> prankster shuts it down
[15:49] <+cbb> a) unpredictability
[15:49] <@Steamroll> easily
05[15:49] * Keiran is now known as Mafequeen
[15:49] <+cbb> b) lovely kiss
01[15:49] <@NatCounciling> its checked by lickiy
[15:49] <@DTC> lol prankster what
[15:49] <+cbb> imo
[15:49] <+Luck> >prankster
[15:49] <+Luck> what prankster mons are NU
[15:49] <@DTC> murkrow
[15:49] <+Luck> murkrow
[15:49] <@DTC> !
[15:49] <+cbb> murkrow switches into psyshock
01[15:49] <@NatCounciling> murkrow
[15:50] <+Luck> ???
[15:50] <+cbb> and then its gg
[15:50] <@Steamroll> liepard
[15:50] <+cbb> !
[15:50] <+Djangoo> what prankster user is switching into jynx
[15:50] <+Luck> lolk
[15:50] <+Luck> you paralyze the jynx
[15:50] <+Luck> while you die to ice beam
[15:50] <+Djangoo> or
[15:50] <+Luck> lost 1 poke to para jynx
[15:50] <+cbb> that would be a
[15:50] <+Luck> amazing gameplan
01[15:50] <@NatCounciling> so?
[15:50] <+cbb> fantastic trade
[15:50] <+Djangoo> you get slept on the switchin
[15:50] <+cbb> for me
[15:50] <+Ginku> prankster taunt sucker punch murkrow
01[15:50] <@NatCounciling> that makes it
[15:50] <+Djangoo> ??
[15:50] <+cbb> js
01[15:50] <@NatCounciling> helle easy
01[15:50] <@NatCounciling> to check
[15:50] <+Ginku> let's get it
01[15:50] <@NatCounciling> @ luck
05[15:50] * Mafequeen is now known as Keiran
[15:50] <+cbb> in all honest though WHO AGREES
[15:50] <@DTC> that's a good tradeoff tbh
[15:50] <+Luck> lol ok
[15:50] <+cbb> but yeah the 2 problems with jynx are
[15:50] <+cbb> a) unpredictability
[15:50] <@DTC> unless you're using stall
[15:50] <+cbb> b) lovely kiss
01[15:50] <@NatCounciling> cbb its not that unpredicable...
[15:50] <@DTC> or something that needs every 'mon it oculd get
01[15:50] <@NatCounciling> imo
[15:50] <@DTC> could*
[15:50] <+cbb> well
[15:50] <@DTC> it's not that it's unpredictable
[15:50] <+Luck> also remember that jynx could always switch out
[15:51] <+Luck> of murkrow
[15:51] <@DTC> it's that it can easily sweep
[15:51] <+cbb> I've seen pokemon such as cryogonal
[15:51] <+Djangoo> pursuit murkrow
[15:51] <+cbb> being brought up
[15:51] <@DTC> lovely kiss helps immensly
[15:51] <@Steamroll> lol
[15:51] <+Luck> lol
[15:51] <%Raseri> jynx is also really weak to status
[15:51] <+cbb> which simply dies to psyshock
01[15:51] <@NatCounciling> but you're also easily checked by offense
01[15:51] <@NatCounciling> also guys
[15:51] <+Luck> pursuit thunder wave roost murkrow
01[15:51] <@NatCounciling> why are we bringing up
[15:51] <@DTC> right, but that's offense
01[15:51] <@NatCounciling> stupid things
[15:51] <+cbb> I have been running offense a lot on ladder
[15:51] <+Luck> such an amazing set in this metagame
[15:51] <+cbb> all the way to 1460
[15:51] <@DTC> and most offense Pokemon struggle switching into Jynx
01[15:51] <@NatCounciling> lets keep it relevant and non sucker punch murkrow
[15:51] <+cbb> and, no, offense does not check it easily
[15:51] <+cbb> at all
[15:51] <@DTC> Raseri, what do you think of Jynx?
[15:51] <+Djangoo> because people suggest murkrow as a legit way to beat jynx
[15:51] <@DTC> You use offense a ton
[15:51] <+Luck> also another problem for offensive teams
[15:51] <+Luck> is
[15:51] <+Luck> outspeeding jynx
01[15:52] <@NatCounciling> also to the people who say jynx beats stall: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3462627 the threatlist for this p much
[15:52] <+Luck> I mean, running 6 pokes that outspeed jynx isn't realistic
[15:52] <@DTC> Yeah, usually Jynx will outspeed 2 mons
[15:52] <@DTC> at least
[15:52] <+cbb> also
[15:52] <+cbb> most scarfers are beaten by jynx
[15:52] <+Djangoo> well the thing is
[15:52] <+cbb> and most unboosted pokemon outsped
01[15:52] <@NatCounciling> how so?
[15:52] <+cbb> js
[15:52] <+Luck> sub
[15:52] <+Luck> and lack of bulk
01[15:52] <@NatCounciling> eh
[15:52] <+Luck> I mean ice beam does a lot on most scarfers already
01[15:52] <@NatCounciling> i mean non sub sets are easy for scarfers
[15:53] <+Luck> like LK + 3 attacks
[15:53] <+Djangoo> LK / Ice Beam / Psyshock / FOcus Blast completely destroys that team mid game
[15:53] <+Luck> but
[15:53] <+Djangoo> provided you can get rid of hypno
[15:53] <+Luck> not much can switch in
[15:53] <@DTC> hey guys
[15:53] <@DTC> SNEASEL!!!
[15:53] <+cbb> also that team beats jynx
[15:53] <+cbb> but is 6-0'd by emboar
[15:53] <+cbb> good trade off
[15:53] <@DTC> umm natgeo
[15:53] <@DTC> If you look down below
[15:54] <@DTC> You'll see that LO Jynx is a massive threat
[15:54] <@DTC> to the team
[15:54] <+Djangoo> lol
[15:54] <+Luck> LO jynx 6-0s that thing
[15:54] <+Djangoo> n
[15:54] <+Luck> unless hypno can switch into ice beam
[15:54] <+Djangoo> 5-0s
[15:54] <+Luck> lolk
[15:54] <+Luck> max sdef hypno with stoss
[15:54] <+Djangoo> hypno beats it but hypno isn't /that/ hard to get rid of
[15:54] <@DTC> lovely kiss / ice beam / fblast / psyshock does a number to that team
[15:54] <+cbb> hypno CAN switch into ice beam
[15:54] <+Luck> fire punch hypno
[15:54] <+cbb> !
[15:54] <+Luck> lol
[15:54] <+Luck> and then it's forced to switch
[15:55] <+cbb> but yeah I doubt theres a single team
[15:55] <@DTC> quagsire has to keep itself at a lot of health
[15:55] <+Luck> it's prone to crits and freezes
[15:55] <+cbb> unless being overprepared as fuck and thus losing to everything else
[15:55] <+Luck> it's u-turn bait
[15:55] <+cbb> that isn't weak to at least one jynx set
[15:55] <+Djangoo> how did that team get to #1
[15:55] <@DTC> I agree that Jynx is easier to beat with offense
[15:55] <+cbb> like REALLY weak
[15:55] <+Luck> lol
[15:55] <@Steamroll> my current team
[15:55] <+Luck> yeah I'm wondering
[15:55] <+cbb> easier, but you still lose ~2ish pokemon
[15:55] <+cbb> if the jynx user doesnt suck
[15:55] <+Luck> the team doesn't look that good
[15:55] <@Steamroll> really relies on jynx not having sub
[15:55] <@DTC> However, against defensive teams, and even against offense teams, it's a huge threat
[15:55] <+Djangoo> also
[15:55] <+Djangoo> it murders balanced
[15:55] <+Djangoo> like
[15:55] <@DTC> You can't deny that Jynx is not a huge threat to NU
[15:55] <+Djangoo> completely murders it
[15:55] <@Steamroll> DTC
[15:56] <@Steamroll> wasn't jynx being used a bit in NU?
[15:56] <@Steamroll> *RU?
[15:56] <@DTC> You have to prepare a lot for it or run a heavily offense teams
[15:56] <@DTC> Yeah
[15:56] <@Steamroll> like enough to go bye bye?
[15:56] <@DTC> It's steadily increasing in usage
[15:56] <@DTC> alright, let's discuss jynx for about 4 more minutes
[15:56] <+cbb> note that offense still doesn't have a guaranteed win against jynx
[15:56] <%Raseri> ugh people are running weird shit today
[15:56] <+Luck> also don't forget that CM jynx
[15:56] <@DTC> then move on
[15:56] <+Luck> can setup on like
[15:56] <+Luck> all the bulky waters
[15:56] <+cbb> just today I was swept by mono attacking ice beam jynx
[15:56] <@DTC> fuck cm jynx
[15:56] <%Raseri> jynx is broken, can we ban it?
[15:56] <@DTC> it killed my regice
[15:56] <+Luck> thanks to dry skin
[15:56] <+Luck> lol
[15:56] <+Djangoo> yes
[15:56] <+cbb> see
[15:56] <+Luck> LK sub CM jynx
[15:56] <+Djangoo> enslave jynx
[15:56] <+cbb> raseri knows his stuff
[15:56] <+cbb> !
01[15:56] <@NatCounciling> i don't find jynx is broken
[15:57] <@DTC> raseri plays offense a lot too
01[15:57] <@NatCounciling> -_-
[15:57] <%Raseri> it beats every play style
[15:57] <+cbb> ^
[15:57] <+cbb> my point exactly
01[15:57] <@NatCounciling> ive never found it to be a problem
01[15:57] <@NatCounciling> at all
[15:57] <+Keiran> Offense is the bets
[15:57] <+cbb> even offense loses like 2 pokemon unless the opponent is a moron
[15:57] <%Raseri> you run lapras or fast fire types
[15:57] <%Raseri> or lose
[15:57] <@DTC> ok, then let's all start using jynx to show that it's a huge threat to natgeo
01[15:57] <@NatCounciling> lul
[15:57] <+Keiran> Most of my teams have Mag or Cinccino or both
[15:57] <+cbb> yes
[15:57] <+cbb> you get slept
[15:57] <+cbb> and thats it
[15:57] <+cbb> !
[15:58] <%Raseri> and jynx can bypass its checks with ease
[15:58] <%Raseri> and mag is relying on fire blast
01[15:58] <@NatCounciling> a smart player
[15:58] <@DTC> +0 jynx's ice beam to cincinno: 95.89 - 113.35%
01[15:58] <@NatCounciling> won't let its counter go to sleep
[15:58] <@DTC> (with lo)
[15:58] <+Luck> lol
01[15:58] <@NatCounciling> ok dtc
[15:58] <@DTC> fblast obviously OHKO's
[15:58] <+Djangoo> a smart jynx player will sleep the counter
[15:58] <+Djangoo> ???
[15:58] <%Raseri> fire blast against sub jynx is asking for a miss
01[15:58] <@NatCounciling> leftovers?
[15:58] <+Djangoo> so whats your point
01[15:58] <@NatCounciling> djangoo
01[15:58] <@NatCounciling> it could go either way
01[15:58] <@NatCounciling> its just a matter of prediction
[15:58] <+Djangoo> precisely
[15:58] <+Keiran> tbolt can probably break its subs
[15:58] <+Djangoo> so saying that is pointless
[15:58] <@DTC> Guys, this isn't the right way to look at whether a Pokemon is broken or not
[15:58] <+cbb> yes
[15:58] <%Raseri> yes but then it can set up more
[15:58] <+cbb> prediction should never go into an argument
[15:58] <+cbb> for all you know he might sub or np
01[15:59] <@NatCounciling> <@DTC> Guys, this isn't the right way to look at whether a Pokemon is broken or not
[15:59] <+cbb> while you send in sleep fodder
01[15:59] <@NatCounciling> x100
[15:59] <+cbb> or actually sleep your counter
[15:59] <+Luck> >jynx
[15:59] <+Luck> '-'
01[15:59] <@NatCounciling> please
[15:59] <%Raseri> ban absol
[15:59] <+Luck> bs I failed
01[15:59] <@NatCounciling> no greentexting
01[15:59] <@NatCounciling> ...
[15:59] <+Luck> anyway
[15:59] <+Luck> lol
[15:59] <+Ginku> lol
[15:59] <+Luck> kk
[15:59] <@DTC> Look at its ability to sweep, how devastating it is in practice, how much it makes you over-prepare, what playstyles it does well against, etc
[15:59] <+cbb> I mentioned all that
[16:00] <%Raseri> way to easily, extremely. a lot, every
[16:00] <@Steamroll> it's pretty much what it's good for
[16:00] <+Luck> it does well against everything although I don't think it's that easy to sweep with it
[16:00] <+Luck> it's more of a hole puncher
[16:00] <@Steamroll> you barely need to build a team around it
[16:00] <@Steamroll> for it to be good too
01[16:00] <@NatCounciling> 1) high ability to sweep 2) mixed results 3) not too hard to prepare 4) does well versus some stall teams w/o tspikes
[16:00] <+cbb> it sweeps or breaks holes really fucking easily, is just as threatening in practice, you ONLY don't get donked by a particular set if you overprepare and it does well against ALL playstyles
[16:00] <@Steamroll> eventually
[16:00] <@Steamroll> jynx will go down
[16:00] <%Raseri> lets all spam jynx so we know its broken
[16:00] <@DTC> ok so let's just name some checks to jynx
[16:00] <+Luck> lol
[16:00] <@Steamroll> it's more of an opportunity to kill thing
[16:01] <+Luck> metang
[16:01] <+Luck> err
[16:01] <%Raseri> magmortar
[16:01] <+Djangoo> yeah imma use jynx on my next team
[16:01] <+Luck> cryogonal unless psyshock
[16:01] <+Djangoo> and rape
[16:01] <@DTC> even if they're shaky
[16:01] <@Steamroll> magmar
[16:01] <+Luck> flareon unless psyshock
[16:01] <@DTC> just mention them
[16:01] <+Luck> magmortar unless psyshock
[16:01] <%Raseri> regice
[16:01] <@Steamroll> lapras to an extent
[16:01] <+Luck> regice y
[16:01] <+Luck> regirock too I guess
[16:01] <@DTC> magmortar takes a lot from +0 lo psychic
[16:01] <%Raseri> opposing jynx
[16:01] <%Raseri> random lum mons
[16:01] <@DTC> lol opposing jynx
[16:01] <@DTC> lum berry golem is such a riduclious concept
[16:01] <%Raseri> outspeed for the sleep :)
[16:02] <+Luck> jynx walls jynx
[16:02] <+Luck> true story
[16:02] <@DTC> but it's quite funny
[16:02] <+cbb> lol opposing jynx
[16:02] <+Keiran> I use Lum Golem
[16:02] <+cbb> I OHKO'd one with +2 psyshock once
[16:02] <%Raseri> CBB you can win RW, i dropped 80 points
[16:02] <+cbb> RW isn't
[16:02] <+cbb> only about laddering
[16:03] <+cbb> I laddered to pass django actually
[16:03] <+Djangoo> and then I dc'd
[16:03] <+Djangoo> fantastic
[16:03] <%Raseri> random Destiny Bond mons everywhere
[16:03] <+cbb> my other alt dropped 100 points because of bs
[16:03] <+cbb> whats your point
[16:03] <@Steamroll> DBond blim
[16:03] <+cbb> anyway
[16:03] <@Steamroll> is annoying as fuck
[16:03] <+cbb> so the majority thinks jynx is broken?
01[16:03] <@NatCounciling> no.
01[16:03] <@NatCounciling> again
[16:03] <@Steamroll> we're not voting yet
01[16:03] <@NatCounciling> we don't have to reach a *consensus*
01[16:03] <@NatCounciling> yet
[16:03] <+cbb> I just want
[16:03] <+cbb> a general opinion
01[16:03] <@NatCounciling> first of three meeting
01[16:03] <@NatCounciling> s
[16:03] <+Djangoo> it was just a question
[16:03] <+cbb> i know
[16:03] <+Djangoo> lol
[16:03] <+cbb> lol
[16:04] <@Steamroll> tbh I put it in our final ballot
[16:04] <@Steamroll> *I'd
[16:04] <@DTC> Jynx will be on the major watch-list
[16:04] <@Steamroll> it's really been a top threat even in the gore hype
01[16:04] <@NatCounciling> yeah ofc
[16:04] <@Steamroll> just we were so gun ho about gore
[16:04] <@DTC> Here, let's look at it this way:
[16:04] <+Djangoo> well its a good gorebyss check too
[16:04] <@Steamroll> that we didn't even consider it
[16:04] <@Steamroll> it's a GREAT gore check
[16:05] <+cbb> its ok
[16:05] <+Djangoo> well
[16:05] <+cbb> I run hp bug these days
[16:05] <+Djangoo> I would say great
01[16:05] <@NatCounciling> jynx is a great gore check
[16:05] <+Djangoo> but HP bug
[16:05] <@DTC> actually eh
[16:05] <+Keiran> Bibarel is a legit gore counter unless lo
01[16:05] <@NatCounciling> not many run hp bug.....
[16:05] <+cbb> looking at it that way from now on dtc
[16:05] <+cbb> !
[16:05] <+Djangoo> I know me and cbb both run HP Bug
[16:05] <@DTC> right now I'm the most concerned about jynx
[16:05] <+Djangoo> and it should be more popular tbh
[16:05] <@DTC> then bambi
[16:05] <@DTC> then zard
[16:05] <@Steamroll> I haven't seen to many hp bug jynx
[16:05] <@DTC> hey, let's take a bit of a break
01[16:05] <@NatCounciling> ok
[16:05] <+cbb> good idea
[16:05] <@Steamroll> is ludi even broken?
[16:05] <@DTC> the next pokemon we'll discuss is braviary

Braviary discussion

@DTC> http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/628.gif
[16:31] <%Raseri> not broken
[16:31] <+cbb> yes better not think about adv ou
[16:31] <+Keiran> why is braviary a suspect
[16:31] <%shnen> braviary isn't really broken imo
[16:31] <+cbb> or the rage will take over again
[16:31] <%Raseri> ^^^
[16:31] <@DTC> see: choice band braviary
[16:32] <@DTC> It 2HKO's practically everything and barely has to predict
[16:32] <+cbb> yeah obviously CB is the only one that even comes close to being broken
[16:32] <%shnen> can regirock take superpowers
[16:32] <@DTC> Not well
[16:32] <%Raseri> see: SR Weak, recoil move, slow and needs perfect prediction
[16:32] <+Keiran> it tanks cc from band sawk
[16:32] <%shnen> well that 2hkoes
12[16:32] * pstats (~LuaIRC@my.pokemans.let.me.show.you.their.stats) has joined #nucouncil
15[16:32] * shnen sets mode: +v pstats
[16:32] <@DTC> You can just spam Brave Bird most of the time
[16:32] <@DTC> Not much resists that
[16:32] <%shnen> pstats, braviary
[16:32] <+pstats> Braviary [Normal/Flying] Keen Eye/Sheer Force/Defiant (DW, Unreleased) | 100/123/75/57/75/80 | NU | GK/LK: 60 BP
[16:32] <+cbb> 252Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Braviary (+Atk) Superpower vs 252HP/0Def Sturdy Regirock (Neutral): 62% - 73% (226 - 266 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
[16:32] <+cbb> it can take
[16:33] <+cbb> two superpowers once
[16:33] <+cbb> without rocks
[16:33] <+cbb> !
[16:33] <@DTC> Most matches you'll only have to predict with Braviary once
[16:33] <%Raseri> braviary dies really quick
[16:33] <@DTC> Maybe twice
[16:33] <%shnen> I actually like regirock with more def
[16:33] <%Raseri> and it is in an unfortunate speed tier
[16:33] <+cbb> braviary actually doesnt die that quickly
[16:33] <@DTC> It doesn't die very quickly
[16:33] <@DTC> Even if Sr is up
[16:33] <+Luck> BU braviary???
[16:33] <%shnen> but anyway that's irrelevant as no one runs that except for me
[16:33] <+cbb> if you spam brave bird all the time you#re doing it wrong
[16:33] <+cbb> frustration gets almost the same kills
[16:33] <%Raseri> I prefer swellow
[16:33] <+cbb> and doesnt have recoil
[16:34] <@DTC> Braviary can actually tank a hit, is slightly stronger, has Superpower, and doesn't die so quickly because of Toxic Orb
[16:34] <+cbb> yeah superpower is the
[16:34] <%shnen> it's just the horrible speed issue
[16:34] <+cbb> big one imo
[16:34] <+cbb> horrible?
01[16:34] <@NatGeo> i don't think braviary is broken imo
[16:34] <+cbb> sure its slower than stuff like sawk but
01[16:34] <@NatGeo> nor swellow
[16:34] <%shnen> I mean in comparison to swellow
[16:34] <%Raseri> if Braviry had base 90 speed id say ban it
[16:35] <+Luck> ???
[16:35] <+Luck> braviary hits very hard, has perfect coverage, has enormous bulk and 2 immunities
[16:35] <+Luck> what else do you want
[16:35] <+cbb> more speed
[16:35] <+cbb> !
[16:35] <+Luck> adaptability braviary???
[16:35] <%shnen> enormous bulk?
[16:35] <%Raseri> more speed
[16:35] <%shnen> pstats, braviary
[16:35] <+pstats> Braviary [Normal/Flying] Keen Eye/Sheer Force/Defiant (DW, Unreleased) | 100/123/75/57/75/80 | NU | GK/LK: 60 BP
[16:35] <+cbb> its not enormous
[16:35] <@DTC> Basically you're saying that underspeeding Sawk and Magmortar is the only thing that's keeping it from being broken?
[16:35] <+cbb> but 100/75/75
[16:35] <%shnen> decent bulk but not enormous
[16:35] <+cbb> is really good
[16:35] <+Luck> 100/75/75 is enormous for something like that
[16:35] <+cbb> for such a strong attacker
[16:35] <+cbb> pstats, Emboar
[16:35] <+pstats> Emboar [Fire/Fighting] Blaze/Reckless (DW, Unreleased) | 110/123/65/100/65/65 | NU | GK/LK: 100 BP
[16:35] <@DTC> When Magmortar isn't that common in NU right now and Sawk is scarfed or adamant a lot of the time
[16:35] <+cbb> about the same
[16:35] <@Steamroll> btw
[16:36] <@Steamroll> I already talked about the mons I'm worried about
[16:36] <%Raseri> and rotom-s/skuntank
[16:36] <@DTC> rotom-s is usually scarfed
[16:36] <@Steamroll> so I'll be out of this discussion and be taking care of other matters for now
[16:36] <@Steamroll> see you guys later
09[16:36] * @Steamroll (~Steamroll@I.aint.got.no.worries.cause.I.aint.in.no.hurry.at.all) has left #nucouncil
[16:36] <@DTC> skuntank doesn't run max speed
[16:36] <%Raseri> there have been fewer scarved ones
[16:36] <%Raseri> i run max speed skuntank
[16:36] <%shnen> I don't know why the analysis has that silly bulky spread
[16:36] <%Raseri> subroost braviary gogogo
[16:36] <%shnen> max speed skuntank is the way to go imo
[16:36] <@DTC> I like bulky much more
[16:37] <%shnen> it doesn't get roost
[16:37] <@DTC> it doesn't have roost
[16:37] <%Raseri> oh really?
[16:37] <%Raseri> gay
[16:37] <+cbb> yes
[16:37] <+cbb> thats the one problem
[16:37] <%Raseri> subBU
[16:37] <+cbb> with roost it would AMAZING
[16:37] <+cbb> instead of amazing
[16:37] <%shnen> yeah subroost would be briliant
01[16:37] <@NatGeo> lol
01[16:37] <@NatGeo> yeah def
[16:37] <@DTC> I'm not convinced that Braviary is broken
01[16:37] <@NatGeo> lets wait for bw2 for that!
[16:37] <@DTC> But you're not giving it enough credit
01[16:37] <@NatGeo> and yeah its not... broken
01[16:37] <@NatGeo> when has it ever been
[16:38] <+cbb> yeah I wouldn't say its broken
[16:38] <%Raseri> nor would i
[16:38] <@DTC> Alright, tell you what: Use Choice Band Braviary more
[16:38] <@DTC> We'll discuss about Braviary next meeting
01[16:38] <@NatGeo> ok!
[16:38] <%shnen> yeah tbh I've never used CB braviary
01[16:38] <@NatGeo> what's next?
[16:38] <%Raseri> absol time?
[16:38] <@DTC> yeah, absol time

 

[jake]

UM okay so smogon isn't letting me add more to that (probably because it's an enormous amount of text lool) so here are the rest

Absol discussion

[16:38] <%Raseri> absol time?
[16:38] <@DTC> yeah, absol time
[16:38] <%Raseri> ban that motherfucker
[16:38] <%Raseri> please
[16:38] <%shnen> nah
01[16:38] <@NatGeo> nah
[16:38] <+cbb> absol isn't that bad
[16:38] <%Raseri> strongest priority move in the game
[16:38] <@DTC> ban super luck imo
01[16:38] <@NatGeo> quagsire counters is, gurdurr
[16:38] <+cbb> I thought it would wreck offensive teams really hard
[16:38] <+cbb> but
[16:39] <+Luck> ban super me
[16:39] <+cbb> it really doesn't
01[16:39] <@NatGeo> most fighting types bar super luck
[16:39] <%shnen> I have no hard counter to absol
[16:39] <@DTC> Quagsire, Gurdurr, Amoonguss, Tangela, Emboar
[16:39] <%shnen> but I can usually work around it
01[16:39] <@NatGeo> basically
[16:39] <+cbb> yeah what shnen said
01[16:39] <@NatGeo> yeah what shnen said
01[16:39] <@NatGeo> ninja'd
[16:39] <+cbb> lol
[16:39] <%shnen> lol
[16:39] <%Raseri> absol so strong
[16:39] <@DTC> And there are always checks like faster Fighting-types, Intimidate Sub Tauros,
[16:39] <@DTC> Sub Cincinno, et
[16:39] <@DTC> etc*
[16:39] <%Raseri> mix absol the best
[16:39] <+cbb> the problem with absol is
[16:39] <%Raseri> Fire Blast that Tangela
[16:39] <+cbb> its strongest attack not working on the switch
[16:39] <@DTC> I also like Absol being in the meta because it's a good Psychic-type check
[16:39] <%shnen> I can normally predict with subroost zard
[16:39] <+cbb> and only if they attack
[16:39] <%shnen> yeah
[16:39] <+Luck> sub intimidate tauros lol
[16:39] <@DTC> but that's a different story
[16:39] <+Luck> do people even run that
[16:40] <%shnen> without absol in the meta
[16:40] <@DTC> rarely, luck
[16:40] <@DTC> lol
[16:40] <@DTC> it's actually quite good with hazards though
[16:40] <%shnen> things like gardy would be much more threatening
[16:40] <%shnen> speaking of which
[16:40] <%shnen> I need to get around to testing gardy
[16:40] <@DTC> 16:39 cbb its strongest attack not working on the switch
[16:40] <@DTC> exactly
[16:40] <@DTC> Well, there is one incredibly strong Absol set out there:
[16:40] <%Raseri> night slash is still strong
01[16:41] <@NatGeo> yeah true
[16:41] <@DTC> Psycho Cut / Night Slash / Sucker Punch / Stone Edge with Jolly
[16:41] <%Raseri> [14:39] <%Raseri> mix absol the best
[16:41] <+cbb> ...
[16:41] <+cbb> hey dtc
[16:41] <@DTC> lol
[16:41] <+cbb> fuck you.
[16:41] <%shnen> that set doesn't exist
[16:41] <+cbb> yes it does
[16:41] <@DTC> it beat cbb
[16:41] <@DTC> !
[16:41] <+cbb> and it swept me.
[16:41] <%shnen> ...does it??
[16:41] <+cbb> it outsped braviary
[16:41] <@DTC> some dumbass was running it
[16:41] <%shnen> who used that
[16:41] <+cbb> and donked it with stone edge
[16:41] <%shnen> oh
[16:41] <%shnen> random idiots
[16:41] <+cbb> it was -30
[16:41] <%Raseri> ok lets all use it
[16:41] <+cbb> I was
[16:41] <+cbb> mad
[16:42] <+Djangoo> you are still mad
[16:42] <+Djangoo> js
[16:42] <@DTC> ok so let's discuss about weather now

Sun discussion

[16:42] <@DTC> ok so let's discuss about weather now
[16:42] <+cbb> not at absol
01[16:42] <@NatGeo> hmmm!
01[16:42] <@NatGeo> weather!
[16:42] <+cbb> also I'm mad again
[16:42] <%shnen> weather
[16:42] <+cbb> not anymore
[16:42] <%Raseri> ban hail
01[16:42] <@NatGeo> tough one
[16:42] <@DTC> Rain or sun?
[16:42] <@DTC> Which one should we discuss first?
01[16:42] <@NatGeo> both?
[16:42] <%Raseri> sandstorm
[16:42] <@DTC> I'm thinking sun
[16:42] <+cbb> Sun
[16:42] <%shnen> rain and sun are close but not enough to go over the edge
[16:42] <%shnen> imo
01[16:42] <@NatGeo> ok sun
[16:42] <%Raseri> sun is a bitch
[16:42] <+cbb> Sun basically
[16:42] <@DTC> Okay so do we think sun as a playstyle is broken
01[16:42] <@NatGeo> eh
[16:42] <%Raseri> no
01[16:42] <@NatGeo> pretty close anyways
[16:42] <%shnen> I've used sun and seriously it was underwhelming
[16:42] <@DTC> With great abusers like Victreebell, Sawsbuck, Exeggutor, and Charizard?
[16:42] <+cbb> turns so many things from just good into unstoppable monsters
[16:43] <%shnen> to me anyway
01[16:43] <@NatGeo> it tips a lot of pokemon out of balance
01[16:43] <@NatGeo> yeah waht cbb said
[16:43] <%shnen> I was most likely using it wrong
[16:43] <+Djangoo> I thinks its broken with 8 turns
[16:43] <+Luck> tangela for sun abuser
[16:43] <+Luck> !
[16:43] <@DTC> I don't like using sun but it's a bitch to fight against
[16:43] <+cbb> sawsbuck and charizard are really hard to stop
[16:43] <%shnen> but it's not unbeatable at all
[16:43] <+cbb> and even harder to stop under sun
01[16:43] <@NatGeo> 8 turns is a lot
[16:43] <@DTC> nothing is unbeatable
[16:43] <%Raseri> ^
[16:43] <+cbb> yeah 8 turns
[16:43] <+Djangoo> well technically 7
01[16:43] <@NatGeo> what's your opinion on heat rock?
[16:43] <+Djangoo> but yeah
[16:43] <+Djangoo> it would be manageable with heat rock
[16:43] <@DTC> I wouldn't mind banning Heat Rock
[16:43] <+Djangoo> without*
[16:43] <+cbb> give stuff like sawsbuck JUST enough time to kill enough stuff even with predicted switches
[16:43] <%shnen> eh
[16:43] <%Raseri> neither would i
01[16:44] <@NatGeo> yeah if we didn't have heat rock
[16:44] <@DTC> Sun would pretty much disappear without heat rock
[16:44] <%shnen> I don't think it's bannable
[16:44] <+Djangoo> yeah its so much easier to predict for 3-4 turns
[16:44] <+Djangoo> then 6-7
[16:44] <@DTC> other than maybe sunny day lo eggy or something
01[16:44] <@NatGeo> i think weather
01[16:44] <@NatGeo> would be manageable
[16:44] <%shnen> although I'm very conservative with banning
01[16:44] <@NatGeo> ^
[16:44] <%shnen> I don't think most things are bannable
[16:44] <@DTC> I don't like running a bunch of weather checks
01[16:44] <@NatGeo> ^
[16:44] <@DTC> Like Altaria needs Cloud Nine to appropriately check Charizard
[16:44] <@DTC> Which is generally inferior to Natural Cure
[16:45] <%shnen> HP Ice charizard is the best anyway
[16:45] <@DTC> And it can hurt get hit by HP Ice (albeit bad to be locked into)
[16:45] <%shnen> speaking of which QC guys
[16:45] <%shnen> SET]
[16:45] <%shnen> name: Solar Power
[16:45] <%shnen> move 1: Fire Blast
[16:45] <%shnen> move 2: Air Slash
[16:45] <%shnen> move 3: Solarbeam / Focus Blast
[16:45] <%shnen> move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Grass
[16:45] <%shnen> item: Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
[16:45] <%shnen> ability: Solar Power
[16:45] <%shnen> nature: Timid / Modest
[16:45] <%shnen> evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
[16:45] <@DTC> Victreebell and Eggy are also monster sweepers
[16:45] <%shnen> is this the best set
[16:45] <%shnen> or should I change it a bit
[16:45] <@DTC> deslash hp grass
[16:45] <@DTC> not sure about using focus blast
[16:45] <+cbb> yeah hp grass is
[16:45] <+cbb> useless
[16:45] <+cbb> especially in sun
[16:45] <+Djangoo> separate specs and scarf
[16:45] <@DTC> move focus blast to ac imo
[16:45] <+Djangoo> they are completely different
[16:45] <%shnen> then I have to write 4 sets
[16:46] <%shnen> D:<
[16:46] <@DTC> wait, 4?
[16:46] <@DTC> don't you only have to write 2
[16:46] <@DTC> + choice scarf maybe
[16:46] <%shnen> superjocke kept bugging me to put SD on
[16:46] <@DTC> that's superjocke's problem
[16:46] <+cbb> sd is
[16:46] <+cbb> shit
[16:46] <+Djangoo> ^
[16:46] <%shnen> and the thing is why not
05[16:46] -blizzard.nl.eu.synirc.net:@#nucouncil- DTC invited Steamroll into the channel.
[16:46] <%shnen> if I put it on
[16:46] <%shnen> and it gets rejected
[16:46] <+Djangoo> unless they run Outrage too!!!
[16:46] <%shnen> no harm done
[16:46] <+Keiran> scarf, specs, lo, subroost,
12[16:46] * Steamroll (~Steamroll@I.aint.got.no.worries.cause.I.aint.in.no.hurry.at.all) has joined #nucouncil
[16:46] <@DTC> steamroll
[16:46] <@DTC> should SD be included on Zard?
[16:46] <%shnen> nah I'm doing LO roost
[16:46] <@DTC> the zard analysis
[16:47] <@DTC> Also, we're discussing sun atm
[16:47] <%shnen> steamroll also said it should
[16:47] <+Keiran> flame charge
[16:47] <%shnen> iirc
[16:47] <+cbb> FLAME CHARGE
[16:47] <%shnen> shush
[16:47] <+cbb> and cb
[16:47] <+cbb> !
[16:47] <@DTC> is scarf charizard actually good?
[16:47] <@DTC> I've never seen or used it
[16:47] <%shnen> I used it
[16:47] <%shnen> it's good
[16:47] <+Djangoo> yeah I used it a bit
[16:47] <+Djangoo> its better in sun
[16:47] <+Keiran> Outspeeding like everything is boss
[16:47] <@DTC> ok, put it as like the last set or something
[16:48] <@DTC> or before subroost
15[16:48] * NatGeo sets mode: +o Steamroll
[16:48] <@DTC> imo do: specs - lo roost - scarf - subroost
[16:48] <%shnen> I've had the most success with subroost actually funnily enough
09[16:48] * shnen was kicked by Steamroll (don't speak for me)
12[16:48] * shnen (shnen@fight.the.good.fight) has joined #nucouncil
[16:48] <@DTC> really?
15[16:48] * DTC sets mode: +v shnen
[16:48] <+shnen> LO roost has sub slashed on it
[16:48] <+shnen> move 1: Fire Blast
[16:48] <+shnen> move 2: Air Slash
[16:48] <+shnen> move 3: Roost
[16:48] <+shnen> move 4: Substitute / Focus Blast
[16:49] <+Luck> scarf zard isn't amazing but if you need a fast revenge killer with a lot of firepower and don't mind SR weakness is one of the best
01[16:49] <@NatGeo> ye
[16:49] <+Luck> ok that made no sense
[16:49] <@DTC> why use sub on lo charizard?
[16:49] <+cbb> it did not
[16:49] <+cbb> zebra is best scarfer
[16:49] <@Steamroll> lol
[16:49] <+cbb> js
[16:49] <+shnen> what
[16:49] <+Luck> remind the last part
[16:49] <+Luck> >remind
[16:49] <+shnen> subroost with LO is the best set
[16:49] <+Luck> remove***
[16:49] <@DTC> ok then
[16:49] <+cbb> I never used it but from what I've seen
[16:49] <@DTC> I hate lo + sub though
[16:49] <+shnen> I hated focus blast when I tried that but eh
[16:49] <+cbb> subroost LO is mad good
[16:49] <+cbb> js
[16:49] <@DTC> especially on something with a 4x weakness to sr
[16:49] <@DTC> but eh, that's my problem
[16:49] <@DTC> lol
[16:49] <+shnen> it also lets you get into blaze
[16:49] <+cbb> soooo
[16:49] <@DTC> anyways
[16:49] <+shnen> and fucking
[16:49] <+cbb> sun done??
[16:49] <+shnen> nuke stuff
[16:50] <@DTC> let's go back into sun
[16:50] <@DTC> So what is the general consenus?
[16:50] <+shnen> yeah there's more to discuss on sun
[16:50] <@DTC> spelled that wrong but w/e
[16:50] <+shnen> sorry for derailing
[16:50] <+Djangoo> sun is broken with 8 turns imo, should be manageable without heat rock
[16:50] <+shnen> so steamroll what are your thoughts on SD zard then
[16:50] <+cbb> ENSLAVE HEAT ROCK
01[16:50] <@NatGeo> :<
[16:50] <+cbb> etc
[16:50] <+shnen> if you don't want me to speak for you
[16:50] <@DTC> let's discuss a bit more on why you think it's broken
01[16:50] <@NatGeo> heat rock?
[16:50] <+shnen> I don't believe it to be broken
[16:50] <+Djangoo> the thing is
[16:50] <@DTC> do you think sun sweepers are noticeably better than normal sweeprs?
[16:50] <+Djangoo> no
[16:50] <+shnen> I've always found it to be managable
01[16:51] <@NatGeo> with the weather boost possibly
[16:51] <+Djangoo> without sun they are just as good
[16:51] <+cbb> charizard is
[16:51] <@DTC> no, I mean not them without weather
[16:51] <+Djangoo> but with the doubled speed they beomce that much harder to beat
[16:51] <@DTC> I mean normal sweepers outside the weather
[16:51] <+shnen> so like
[16:51] <@DTC> ok I think I'm explaining this terribly
[16:51] <@DTC> lol
[16:51] <+cbb> you mean
[16:51] <+Djangoo> yeah dtc are you on drugs
[16:51] <+shnen> the differences between
[16:51] <+cbb> is charizard better than magmortar??
[16:51] <+shnen> things like byss and jynx
[16:51] <@DTC> Morning Sun Rapidash is fun
[16:51] <+cbb> oh that was
[16:51] <+cbb> a shitty
[16:51] <+shnen> compared to sun sawsbuck
[16:51] <+shnen> ?
[16:51] <+cbb> comparison
[16:51] <+Djangoo> well like victrebell and eggy are not sweeping without sun up
[16:52] <@DTC> I usually use sunny day on eggy
[16:52] <+cbb> and yes I think charizard in sun is the best special attacker in the tier
01[16:52] <@NatGeo> i agree with this statement mostly
[16:52] <+shnen> yeah
[16:52] <+shnen> at least scarf cinccino beats it
[16:52] <+shnen> B)
[16:52] <@DTC> alright -- do you think that the support required to run these sun sweepers is worth it?
[16:53] <+shnen> that's my problem
[16:53] <+shnen> when I tried it it wasn't for me
[16:53] <+cbb> I wish I had used a sun team myself
[16:53] <+shnen> most likely my team was shit
[16:53] <+shnen> but eh
[16:53] <+cbb> but from what I've seen
[16:53] <+Djangoo> its not that hard to throw together 3-4 sweepers and some weather setters
[16:53] <+shnen> it's all the experience I have
[16:53] <+shnen> that's what I tried django
[16:53] <+Djangoo> not to mention stuff like volbeat exists
[16:53] <+shnen> it failed
[16:53] <+cbb> the 8 turns really let stuff like charizard and sawsbuck wreck everything
01[16:53] <@NatGeo> what djangoo said
[16:53] <+cbb> and I mean
[16:53] <+cbb> everything
[16:53] <+shnen> I used both volbeat and illumise
[16:53] <@DTC> LO Eggy is scary as well
01[16:53] <@NatGeo> basically 3 extra turns per setup
[16:53] <+Luck> lo eggy in sun
[16:53] <+shnen> so I was pretty much guarenteed to get sun up
01[16:53] <@NatGeo> is pretty scary
[16:53] <+Djangoo> yeah shnen don't use both lol
[16:53] <+Luck> stupidest shit ever
[16:54] <+shnen> but even then
[16:54] <+cbb> the 3 extra turns are
[16:54] <+cbb> HUGE
[16:54] <+Luck> use regirock as sun setter
[16:54] <+Luck> it's brilliant
[16:54] <+Djangoo> yeah I can predict most of the time for like 4 turns
[16:54] <@DTC> probo is also a good sun setter
[16:54] <+Djangoo> then something dies
[16:54] <+shnen> I also tried regi later
[16:54] <+Djangoo> because the predictions are 50/50
[16:54] <@DTC> but I like Regi's physical bulk
[16:54] <+shnen> but yeah I fail at playing sun
01[16:54] <@NatGeo> my team was
[16:54] <+shnen> I feel liek giving it another shot now actually
01[16:54] <@NatGeo> volbeat / illumise / zard / buck / victreebel / filler
[16:54] <@DTC> yeah, playtest it some more
[16:54] <+shnen> that was my team natgeo
[16:54] <+shnen> it sucked
[16:54] <+Djangoo> running both bugs is pointless imo
[16:55] <+shnen> badly
[16:55] <@DTC> yeah I agree with django
01[16:55] <@NatGeo> lol shnen
01[16:55] <@NatGeo> i used
01[16:55] <@NatGeo> ludicolo
[16:55] <+cbb> regirock over illumise
[16:55] <+cbb> !
01[16:55] <@NatGeo> as the fillet
01[16:55] <@NatGeo> *filler
01[16:55] <@NatGeo> it was actually decent
[16:55] <@DTC> My biggest beef with Charizard when I used it on a sun team
[16:55] <+shnen> ludicolo the best fillet
[16:55] <@DTC> Were those fucking Rapidash's
01[16:55] <@NatGeo> true
[16:55] <@DTC> And it was a bit challenging to get in
[16:56] <@DTC> But when it got in, it was incredibly dangerous
01[16:56] <@NatGeo> to sun yeah
[16:56] <@DTC> It's much more scary if you can get sr off the field as well
[16:56] <+Djangoo> well rapidash has died down a bit isnce no more research week
[16:56] <+cbb> incredibly dangerous as in
01[16:56] <@NatGeo> :(
[16:56] <+cbb> one KO per switch in??
[16:56] <+cbb> unless altaria??
[16:56] <+cbb> *cloud nine altaria
[16:56] <@DTC> ok so let's discuss rain

Rain discussion

[16:56] <@DTC> ok so let's discuss rain
[16:56] <+Djangoo> rain is just as bad imo
[16:57] <@DTC> Rain doesn't have 2 types that abuse it
[16:57] <+Luck> what abusers are there
[16:57] <+Luck> rain abusers
[16:57] <+Luck> seismitoad
[16:57] <+cbb> gorebyss, ludicolo
[16:57] <+Luck> ludi
[16:57] <+Luck> then?
[16:57] <+cbb> gorebyss is
[16:57] <+cbb> huge
[16:57] <+cbb> js
[16:57] <+Luck> oh gorebyss
[16:57] <+Djangoo> possibly worse because of STAB boost + speed on the same mon
[16:57] <+Luck> yeah
[16:57] <+Luck> umh
[16:57] <+Luck> luvdisc
[16:57] <@DTC> However, they get both stab boost + speed boost
[16:57] <+Djangoo> and yeah gorebyss in rain is holy shit borked
[16:57] <+cbb> the most reliable form of killing gorebyss is RK'ing it
[16:57] <+cbb> which is impossible at +2 in rain
[16:57] <@DTC> it's really hard to get gorebyss to +2 in the rain
[16:57] <@DTC> however, it doesn't even need to set-up
[16:57] <@DTC> it's still insane
[16:57] <+cbb> that too
[16:57] <+cbb> those surfs are
[16:57] <+cbb> really fucking strong
[16:58] <+cbb> especially if you run LO
[16:58] <@DTC> What about Ludicolo?
[16:58] <@DTC> It's very strong as well
[16:58] <+cbb> yes
[16:58] <+Keiran> You guys forget that Bibarel exists
[16:58] <@DTC> And it even has an additional stab in Giga Drain
09[16:58] * Keiran was kicked by DTC (DTC)
[16:58] <+cbb> its also faster outspeeding stuff such as scarf sawk
12[16:58] * Keiran (Mibbit@69B95DBA.25DA29B3.88A27BDB.IP) has joined #nucouncil
[16:58] <+cbb> which is really useful
[16:58] <+shnen> rain is great
15[16:58] * DTC sets mode: +v Keiran
[16:58] <+shnen> seismitoed/ludicolo/gorebyss/jynx/floatzel
[16:58] <+Keiran> It counters non-lo gorebyss x_x
[16:58] <+shnen> are the best abusers
[16:58] <+cbb> the problem is that the most common special "walls" all die to rain
[16:59] <+Djangoo> Ludicolo is amazing in rain
[16:59] <+cbb> cryogonal is 2hko'd by LO HPump, flareon and altaria don't stand a chance at all
[16:59] <@DTC> I like how the rain abusers aren't so dependant on rain
[16:59] <@DTC> Like Victreebell and Exeggutor struggle outside of the sun
[16:59] <+shnen> I've actually had more success with gorebyss
[16:59] <+shnen> than ludicolo
[16:59] <@DTC> (non specs eggy)
[16:59] <+Djangoo> Ludicolo is a great stand alone sweeper too
[16:59] <@DTC> especially since a lot of the grass-types use solarbeam > giga drain
[16:59] <@DTC> yeah that too
[16:59] <+Keiran> i havent used ludicolo in rain
[16:59] <+Keiran> only out of rain
[16:59] <+shnen> I did at the start of the round
[16:59] <@DTC> you're missing out man
[17:00] <+Keiran> its still great
[17:00] <+shnen> I used illumise+volbeat+ 4 swswers
[17:00] <+Djangoo> stop using that shit shnen
[17:00] <+shnen> it was ten times better than my sun team like that
[17:00] <+shnen> it was good
[17:00] <@DTC> Seismitoad is crazy
[17:00] <+shnen> I got like #5 with it last round
[17:00] <+Luck> seismitoad is amazing
[17:00] <+shnen> with jynx over ludi
[17:00] <@DTC> http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3464969
[17:00] <+Luck> amazing bulk
[17:00] <+Luck> good dual stab
[17:00] <@DTC> discuss what makes rain so strong
[17:00] <@DTC> !
[17:00] <+cbb> seismitoad is surprisingly underrated
[17:00] <+shnen> yeah seismitoed is the best
[17:00] <+shnen> also is it bad that because of politoed
[17:00] <@DTC> post in the rain and sun threads when you can, guys
[17:01] <@DTC> like what makes them really strong etc
[17:01] <+shnen> I always call it seismitoed
[17:01] <+Keiran> water-types stab basically doubled
[17:01] <+shnen> instead of toad
[17:01] <+Keiran> !
[17:01] <@DTC> specs basculin anyone
[17:01] <@DTC> ???
[17:01] <+cbb> seismitoed
[17:01] <+cbb> !
[17:01] <+shnen> besides Gorrebyss (who really needs a smash to be a huge threat) all of the swift-swimmers lack power.
[17:01] <+Djangoo> yeah water stab + speed is the killer
[17:01] <+shnen> I really don't agree with this statement
[17:01] <+cbb> it doesn't
[17:01] <+cbb> _need_ smash
[17:01] <@DTC> eh, you'd probably want to use band for aqua jet
[17:01] <+Djangoo> lacking power
[17:01] <+Djangoo> what
[17:01] <+cbb> its stronger than ludicolo by a LONG shot
[17:01] <+cbb> lol
[17:01] <+shnen> yeah
[17:01] <+cbb> and I mean
[17:01] <+cbb> LONG
[17:01] <+cbb> pstats, Gorebyss
[17:01] <+pstats> Gorebyss [Water] Swift Swim/Hydration (DW) | 55/84/105/114/75/52 | NU | GK/LK: 40 BP
[17:01] <+cbb> pstats, Ludicolo
[17:01] <+shnen> also
[17:01] <+pstats> Ludicolo [Water/Grass] Swift Swim/Rain Dish/Own Tempo (DW) | 80/70/70/90/100/70 | NU | GK/LK: 80 BP
[17:01] <+shnen> Floatzel
[17:02] <+cbb> lol 24 points
[17:02] <+shnen> is so good
[17:02] <+shnen> even better in this meta
[17:02] <+cbb> oh right floatzel exists
[17:02] <+shnen> what with the influx
[17:02] <+shnen> of altaria
[17:02] <+shnen> flareon
[17:02] <+shnen> cryp
[17:02] <+cbb> physical rain abusers are such a rare kind in NU
[17:02] <+shnen> cryo
[17:02] <+shnen> regirock
[17:02] <+shnen> etc
[17:02] <+shnen> no
[17:02] <+shnen> run mix floatzel
[17:02] <+cbb> or, well, mixed
[17:02] <+cbb> I know
[17:02] <+shnen> that is such a good set
[17:02] <+cbb> but physical as in
[17:02] <+cbb> its main attack is physical
[17:02] <+shnen> you only need 16 speed to outspeed everything
[17:02] <@DTC> ok so
[17:02] <+cbb> the only special attack is ice beam no?
[17:02] <+shnen> hp grass
[17:02] <@DTC> this is what we got from this council meeting:

tl;dr

[17:02] <@DTC> this is what we got from this council meeting:
[17:03] <@DTC> Charizard - on the semi-watch list
[17:03] <@DTC> Jynx - very strong; close to if not broken
[17:03] <@DTC> Absol - not strong enough to be banned
[17:03] <+shnen> to be honest I don't feel that anything is broken to the point of banning
[17:03] <@DTC> (this is the general consenus)
01[17:03] <@NatGeo> yeah what shnen said
[17:04] <@DTC> Sawsbuck - Very strong; close to if not broken
[17:04] <@DTC> (Although there's less pro-ban for Bambi than Jynx)
[17:04] <@DTC> Weather - fuck it
[17:04] <@DTC> Braviary - it needs to be tested more

Anyway, I fully expect the council members who weren't present to post their thoughts and opinions on the potential suspects. I'll post mine later, when it's not 2:20 AM. To everyone else: what do you guys think? What do you agree with? What don't you agree with? What's broken and what isn't? Discuss away!

 

[Django]

Well most of my thoughts are already in those logs but I would like to say something about Braviary. It is an absolute monster with a Choice Band, and beats pretty much the entire tier, bar a few niche checks and stupid stuff like Metang. Initially it appears like it should go, just because of its sheer force (euheuheuh), but there are a number of things holding it back.

The biggest one, imo, is the Stealth Rock weakness. Rocks are almost always up in NU, and this means Braviary is only switching in 4 times max, unless you manage to keep rocks away. This seems pretty unlikely to me since anyone seeing Braviary in team preview will rush to set up SR. On top of this, the recoil from Brave Bird means those 4 switches quickly become 2 or 3. Finally, with this few opportunities to wreck havok, it has to predict prefectly or be met with an opposing Rock or Steel type. Its an incredible Pokemon for sure, and great in the current metagame, but there is a lot more to it then just 2HKOing the entire tier.

 

[No Luck Involved]

I just wanted to say that cbb's Kangaskhan team is absolutely beast and I think he pretty much nailed NU down with that team. It's answer to offense is its bulk and its answer to stall is its coverage and power (with underused wall breaking monsters such as Emboar, Musharna and Braviary and flexible but hard to wall threats in Zebstrika, Sawk and Kangaskhan). cbb should write an RMT because it deserves a place in the archive as imo the best NU team I have seen so far.

Just posting to say respect and I'm putting Protect on every member of my team from now on to counter team the bastard! The sheer nerve of Choicing everything!

 

[DTC]

I'll share my stance on Sawsbuck for now.

Offensive teams against Sawsbuck:

While 95 base Speed isn't slow, it's not fast enough to sweep offensive teams until a few Pokemon go down. There will usually be at least 2 Pokemon who can outspeed and KO Sawsbuck easily. Revenging isn't the only way offense beats Sawsbuck either; at +0 Sawsbuck isn't that powerful, and Sawsbuck will struggle setting up against offense. Maybe against Regirock? Well, offensive tank Regirock actually beats Sawsbuck 1 on 1. Maybe against Golem? Well, Golem can KO with Rock Blast/Stone Edge + Sucker Punch. It's pretty much forced to set-up on the switch... and even then it can just be revenged afterwords or the switch was TO the Pokemon that can outspeed Sawsbuck. Now, I'm not saying that it's impossible for Sawsbuck to set-up, but it's hard, and a lot of the time the set-up will just be wasted as something can just revenge it. Of course, that doesn't mean Sawsbuck will never sweep; it's not that hard to sweep with Sawsbuck -- just that you can't feasibly do it in most matches. You may argue that it can just attack the Pokemon that is switched in, but then it's only +0, so it isn't as powerful and may fail to OHKO the Pokemon that switched in, and one Pokemon killed isn't that bad -- offense can afford to lose a Pokemon a lot of times.

Now, let's look at more defensive teams (think (semi)stall):

Defensive teams usually carry Toxic Spikes; if those are set-up, Sawsbuck will be in real trouble. If it carries Double-Edge and Life Orb it'll struggle to survive long as well... that's not to say that stall teams will have to resort to that often. Double-Edge Sawsbuck is countered by Tangela; Return can get past Tangela -- provided Sawsbuck has a lot of health left -- and doesn't kill Sawsbuck as fast, but Golbat, Gurdurr, Weezing, Amoonguss, Musharna, Torkoal, and a few other Pokemon will have a much easier time beating Sawsbuck when it doesn't carry the more powerful Double-Edge attack. There's also Armaldo, Acrobatics Drifblim, Will-O-Wisp Misdreavus, and Piloswine (defensive takes like 84% max from +2 Horn Leech, lol) who beat Sawsbuck no matter if it runs Double-Edge or Return. (SubSD Sawsbuck can beat Will-O-Wisp Misdreavus, but it has issues with a lot of other Pokemon.)

Overall, Sawsbuck has a nice diversity of offensive and defensive checks and even has some counters. Despite it being a very powerful threat, I don't think we should ban it right now. That's not to say I'm not concerned about it; other very good Sawsbuck sets could arise and make Sawsbuck even more broken. A Swords Dance Baton Pass could be very threatening... like DW Blaziken. (No Speed Boost, though.) It's still revenged by the same offensive Pokemon and Leafeon would probably be better at pulling that off thanks to its better bulk and easier time at setting up.

I'm interested in hearing your opinions about Sawsbuck. Do you think that Sawsbuck is broken or not broken?

 

[No Luck Involved]

I said this before and I stand by it still: Sawsbuck is a very good sweeper and incredibly versatile and dangerous Pokemon but not broken. It is an asset to any team and is both a joy to play with and against. A perfect NU Pokemon in my books and long may it continue.

 

[tennisace]

My opinion on Sawsbuck:

Yes, it is a great and versatile offensive Pokemon. However, just like every offensive Pokemon, if you don't carry something either offensive or defensive to revenge/check Sawsbuck, you will lose. If you misplay against it, it will punish you. However, this really isn't any different than any other offensive Pokemon.

For a Pokemon to be broken in my opinion, you need to be able to put it on any of your teams, and regardless of what your opponent does, it needs to be able to sweep. DTC listed all of the things that Sawsbuck doesn't like: Toxic Spikes, Tangela, Drifblim, Misdreavus, etc etc etc. You need support on your team in order to cleanly sweep with Sawsbuck. Sure, it can demolish unprepared opponents. But I don't think Sawsbuck can do it significantly better than say, Jynx, or Absol, or any other set-up sweeper.

It's a great NU Pokemon, and I have to say, it's a ton of fun to play with. It gave NU a kind of spark, a new weapon on offensive teams that can punish more defensive teams when running SD, or more offensive teams when using Chlorophyll. But that's just it, it's an NU Pokemon, not BL3.

 

[Raseri]

ok I'll share my opinion of Sawsbuck as well.

I do not believe that Sawsbuck is even remotely broken.

It is definitely a top-tier threat which needs to be prepared for in team building but without obvious flaws in your team you should not struggle significantly against it. Sawsbuck is the type of pokemon that needs half of the opposing team gone to sweep in this meta. With the pokemon that can outspeed and OHKO it or tank a hit and defeat it Sawsbuck becomes a nonfactor in many games. In reality Sawsbuck only has a decent attack stat, good speed and abusable dual stabs. Traits of a good pokemon, but definitely not one that is overwhelming in the metagame. A nerf to sun(possible heat rock) would be much more beneficial to the tier. Since the only Sawsbuck that I would even consider banning is one under sun; but that is only because of amazing teammates like Charizard and Victreebel.

So Sawsbuck is just a good pokemon in NU, sun is the only reason its suspect. And sun is what is causing a lot of Pokemon to be suspect.

 

[Ewil]

So sun can be considered suspect ? I don't have tested it yet, but i faced many, Victreebel is a real monster since you can't predict if he's physical, special or mixed and if he have sleep powd or sucker punch.

 

[DTC]

So sun can be considered suspect ? I don't have tested it yet, but i faced many, Victreebel is a real monster since you can't predict if he's physical, special or mixed and if he have sleep powd or sucker punch.

Sun is currently a suspect now, as well as rain. A lot of council members have been talking about banning the two weather rocks to nerf weather.

 

[November Blue]

I know that this has no bearing on the actual tiering, but I like that NU is a perma weather-free tier. One of the charms of the NU tier is its simplicity compared to, say, OU.

My thoughts on Sawsbuck:

It's too early to ban it, or even seriously consider banning it. It's been NU for twenty-three days people, give bambi some time to settle into the tier.

One thing that stand out to me is that people don't seem to be running specific Pokemon or sets to counter it. We seem to be handling it just fine with what we have now (i.e. the current metagame), and though it's difficult to handle by walling due to its awesome power, there are plenty of easy ways to handle it, such as status, offensive pressure (preventing the Swords Dance), faster Pokemon-of which there are many, including almost any Choice Scarf user, and Pokemon such as Cinccino, Swellow, Sneasel ect. Sawsbuck has no priority, which makes it much easier to deal with. The calcs for a +2 Double-Edge look really good, but I've never thought of Sawsbuck as broken.

 

[Ewil]

Sun is currently a suspect now, as well as rain. A lot of council members have been talking about banning the two weather rocks to nerf weather.

Oh ! Didn't know, sorry ! Where the council discuss this ? Only on IRC ? Or there is a topic that i miss ?

In any case, sun is a beast, rain is a bit weaker since the abusers are slower, but i really love tank Ludicolo :Q_

 

[DTC]

Oh ! Didn't know, sorry ! Where the council discuss this ? Only on IRC ? Or there is a topic that i miss ?

In any case, sun is a beast, rain is a bit weaker since the abusers are slower, but i really love tank Ludicolo :Q_

The discussions are usually on IRC, but the input you post here might influence our decisions if you have good reasoning. :)

Do come on the IRC if you have the chance, though!

 

[tennisace]

Sun is currently a suspect now, as well as rain. A lot of council members have been talking about banning the two weather rocks to nerf weather.

I wouldn't say that it's a suspect, but it is currently being looked at. Pre-suspect is better if you want to put a label on it.

Also we're holding our next council discussion in two days, time tbd. I'll announce it in this thread once I figure out what time works best for all council members.

Also, my opinion on Braviary:

Unfortunately, Braviary does have to predict, especially if you want to call the Choice Band set broken. You can't spam Brave Bird and Superpower all day since both have huge drawbacks (being forced to switch if you predict wrong, or just recoil from Brave Bird even if you predict right). Yes, Braviary has bulk. But CB is slow. You can easily revenge it and/or force it out with tons of Pokemon, and if you can get SR up, it's going to die very very quickly. So again, it hits like a nuke. It has the ability to 2hko almost everything in the metagame, with the caveat of having to select the correct move. There are tons of offensive checks in the metagame currently, and even a few defensive. It isn't able to just blow by entire teams if you plan well. You may lose a Pokemon if you predict wrong, but like my Sawsbuck bit, I can say that for a ton of other mons!

 

[Steamroll]

Braviary isn't broken imo, it's not like it can just go Brave Bird, Brave Bird, Brave Bird and win a game for you. It has real speed problems and it's really easy to just revenge kill after Brave Bird recoil or the Defense drop from Superpower. It does have power and it is definitely something to prepare for, but having Stealth Rock up and stout checks will definitely make the Braviary user think twice before they select a move or decide to switch out.

On to another stout offensive pokemon that people really need to keep an eye out for. Jynx is definitely a top 3 threat in the metagame because of the sheer variety of sets that she can use. The most important move in Jynx's arsenal is definitely Lovely Kiss. Jynx has the ability to play major mind games with the opponent, essentially leaving you with the decision to switch in your check and get slept, or stay in and get set up on. Jynx's ambiguity is further boosted by the fact that she has a variety of effective moves that will keep you or your opponent guessing until it might be too late...