Magmortar was here, Zebraiken is a loser Hi there. Jynx is gone. The rocks aren't. So what else is new? Magmortar reigns supreme for the second month in a row, but arguably the best deterrent to offensive Water-types is now the first Pokemon in BL3. Bulky Offense and Stall in general immediately receive a boost, while faster Offensive teams lose a nuke. How will this shake out? As an update: We're doing great on activity both on the forums and on the ladder. NU is consistently one of, if not THE most active non-OU metagame forum and I'd like to thank everyone for making that happen. Let's keep it up! Normally, I would say that once nominated and declared not broken, you can't nominate a suspect for at least a round. However, Damp/Heat Rock are fair game to nominate if people feel they are very overpowering. So let's discuss! Did the metagame change for the better or not? Edit: suspect paragraphs. Jynx - 7-0 Ban Weather Rocks - 1-6 Do Not Ban DTC (Move your mouse to reveal the content) DTC (open) DTC (close) Jynx - Ban With access to an amazing STAB combination, 95 base Speed, and Lovely Kiss, Jynx is an amazing threat in NU. Jynx can easily wreck through a team with its amazing STAB's and Lovely Kiss anything it can't beat in one shot. Thanks to the new sleep mechanics in BW, hitting something with Lovely Kiss is effectively is killing it. It's not very hard for a competent Jynx user to defeat at least 1-2 Pokemon with Jynx, and the worst part is Jynx doesn't even have many checks. These 5 things eliminate nearly all of Jynx's checks: 1) Stealth Rock 2) Psyshock 3) A little bit of prior damage 4) Nasty Plot 5) Pursuit support. All of these things aren't very rare, and make all of Jynx's checks very shaky. Often the best way to beat Jynx is to revenge it, which isn't a very good way to beat it when Jynx has 95 base Speed and OHKO's pretty much everything that tries to switch-in. Also, the Jynx user could always just switch out. Jynx is too much for NU to handle. Damp Rock - Do Not Ban It's hard to say whether a playstyle is broken or not. Rain is an incredibly powerful playstyle; however, it's not like it's incredibly over-powering. Rain is largely based on team match-up; while it does well against some teams, other teams, if they carry a few checks, will do well against it. A lot of the Pokemon on rain teams are good, but not amazing without rain set-up. As such, rain teams are often forced to set-up right away. While they are setting up, you can set-up yourself or just hit them as hard as you can. It's not like there is a wide variety of abusers; many are also weak to the same things. Pokemon such as Ludicolo are good rain checks. There are also super fast Choice Scarf users. For stall teams, often they will have Toxic Spikes, which really cripples rain teams unless they're using Rain Dance Amoonguss. Not only that, but they can stall out the rain turns with Protect. Rain is a killer; once set-up, it can easily devastate you. However, if you can stall it out, and carefully pick away at the team, you can beat it. I'm not convinced that it as a playstyle is broken as of now. Heat Rock - Do Not Ban Heat Rock is the same deal. Once set-up, it can easily destroy teams, but the playstyle is very limiting and it's not like they can just set-up for free. Sun abusers are even more dependent on their weather than rain, and also don't get the power boost + speed boost on the same Pokemon. The Fire-type abusers are also weak to Stealth Rock. There are a few checks to sun teams out there, such as Flareon and Altaria, and again, you can always stall it out. Sun has the advantage of having more of a variety in abusers both type-wise and quantity wise; rain has the advantage of having both the power and speed boost on the same Pokemon. Both I'm not convinced that they are broken as of now. Time will tell. It's not like weather is a truly urgent matter with its low usage. Zebraiken (Move your mouse to reveal the content) Zebraiken (open) Zebraiken (close) Jynx | Ban Not a whole lot to say outside of what I've already said in the suspect thread. To summarize, though: Jynx is one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier, and has excellent coverage, power, and a 75% accurate sleep move in Lovely Kiss. Jynx also has a few non-attacking options available to it, in the forms of Substitute, Calm Mind, and Nasty Plot (of which only the first and third see a whole lot of usage). Jynx has very few counters, and the Pokemon that check one set easily fall to another, meaning you may lose a Pokemon or two simply identifying Jynx's set. A simple set of Psyshock / Focus Blast / Ice Beam @ LO will be able to 2HKO the entire tier save a few Pokemon who are basically utterly useless outside of beating Jynx (Hypno and Grumpig, pretty much). Out of every faster Pokemon, hardly anything can easily switch in (Slaking and Miltank are the exceptions, and they only count if Jynx has no Focus Blast). Basically, if played correctly, Jynx will eliminate at least one Pokemon on the opposing team and take another with Lovely Kiss - the metagame simply cannot handle Jynx. It can be revenge killed, but then you gotta consider: how do you get your revenge killer in? You can take it out with priority like Absol's Sucker Punch but then it could just go "lol sub" and bypass it. We have very few Pursuit users to take advantage of its monster weakness to Pursuit and none of them can successfully switch in. Jynx shreds through offensive and defensive teams alike, and nothing can switch into it -and- outright KO it. Welcome to BL3, you broken fucker. >:( Damp & Heat Rock | Do Not Ban IMO it's far too early at this point in time to nominate the weather rocks. My point that I emphasized throughout their suspect threads (I think mostly the rain one but idk it counts for both) is that they aren't used. If they aren't used, who's to say that their effectiveness isn't simply because we aren't prepared for them? To me, trying to ban the weather rocks at this stage is basically us getting rid of something we don't like to play with... which goes totally against the goal of banning things anyway. If weather becomes overwhelming at some point I will advocate re-nominating it for suspect, but at this point in time I feel like it's just an underused strategy that apparently people aren't prepared for. I want to wait and see if, when it becomes more popular, the metagame will adapt. If it doesn't, okay, we can nom the rocks again - but if it does, then we just preventing ourselves from banning something that wasn't broken. Weather teams may be unliked, but that doesn't mean they're broken. Steamroll (Move your mouse to reveal the content) Steamroll (open) Steamroll (close) Damp Rock, beyond giving seven turns of rain and making mons like Gorebyss, Huntail, Ludicolo and Floatzel totally behemoths is definitely a benefit. But beside this point it's the least common of playstyles and very few teams are remotely prepared for it as such. If this was a total threat I'd say we be seeing this a lot more than last month, especially with it being suspect. I understand that there's a lot to abuse with it but it's not worth banning something for being a potential threat, let's wait and see if it becomes more common and judge it from there, not theorymon. Heat Rock, quite similar to Damp Rock. Has a list of abusers, two that recently dropped in Charizard and Sawsbuck and is also sadly not all that common. I seriously don't want to ban something because of theorymon reasoning and the fact that the metagame hasn't properly adapted to weather in general as a threat. We can always pull the "overwhelming threat card" for when and if these strategies become more common. Jynx is a bitch, I'll get this out there now. A great speed stat and an even better Sp. Attack stat help Jynx muscle through pokemon in the tier. Dry Skin as an ability helps Jynx switch in on common water-type moves Scot-free beyond Stealth Rock damage. Jynx's main crux though, is Lovely Kiss. This allows Jynx to take out at least one mon for an extended period of time in the game, likely making it death fodder in the match. Magmortar can switch in on a Lovely Kiss, but rocks damage and the potential for Psyshock on the switch can easily send Magmortar reeling. Jynx's offensive movepool also makes it incredibly hard to check, leaving only Grumpig, Hypno and Metang to try and wall Jynx's attacks. To be totally honest the best of the three is Grumpig, which even then needs a lot of team support to function properly (and this is ignoring the possibility of jynx lovely kissing it). With this huge offensive presence and lack of reliable, viable checks is a bit too much for this tier to handle. I vote for Jynx to be banned from NU. Raseri (Move your mouse to reveal the content) Raseri (open) Raseri (close) Jynx is broken. The many sets she can run are all capable of overwhelming every style of team with very few sets. The mono-attacker can run over any team that is not extremely hyper offensive. The Offensive NP set can be stalled out my really defensive teams but rips through more offensive ones. The LO set dismantles anything not ridiculously bulky. Combined with Jynx's great movepool and speed stat her lack of bulk can be overlooked since you will never get a chance to hit her. Lovely Kiss is what seals the deal; she is able to turn everything but statused pokemon and Magmortar into setup fodder with one move. And seeing as she can dismantle common cores with a boost I believe she is broken. Damp Rock is not broken. Rain does not see enough use to accurately determine if it is to much for the metagame. The few rain teams are handle-able by common Pokemon like Jynx and Absol. Seeing as rain has to use many less then steller pokemon to sweep it is not an overwhelming force in the metagame. If it saw more use I would like to see a revote in the future. Heat Rock is not broken. Sun teams are rare in this metagame; and the ones that are used share to many common weaknesses to effectively sweep. Sun teams rely to much on momentum that is impossible to maintain since each sweeper has stops(except charizard) and is reliant on the weather to sweep; which they rarely do well anyways. If sun became more common a revote might be neccesary. amarillo (Move your mouse to reveal the content) amarillo (open) amarillo (close) Damp Rock: no ban Heat Rock: no ban Jynx: Ban I believe I told DTC last night about what I thought, but here goes the paras: Weather: I'll put these together b/c im running low on time. I believe the recent fiasco in the rain suspect thread simply sums up what I have to say about this ban. Reason #1- It's never seen: why ban it? Granted, usage does not define viability--but I went ahead and laddered with the stereotypical 2 damp rock users + 3 swift swim users no-brainer-team. Of course I got a boring-ole result when you don't put much thought in your team: you get somewhere, but it's not the best. Then, I ask: if it's broken, shouldn't it mow down teams even though I didn't put much thought in the team? Even though I'm just playing through like a drone? (This is a legitimate concern against 'weather doesn't see much success in ladders' because weather really makes you play like a drone unless you're really really mentally strong. I'm not.) I am using much of the 'broken' part of the rain, after all! You don't really get anywhere with a formulaic weather team--that's reason number 2 that I believe rain isn't broken. Just like any other team prototypes, you need thought and good plays in order to win. Maybe after the Jynx ban, people might using really situational things to counter water-type spam, and that might lead to overpreparation. But that's not my concern at the moment, is it? As for sun, I think it's quite similar. Besides the subpar usage, (i see it more than rain, though) sun teams are a little more diverse, but you still need good plays and a well thought-out team in order to win. Jynx: First, we start off with the fact that nothing can ever reliably wall Jynx. SubNP and 3-attacks, or any other combination of its great moves gives it so many different options. It's on a good speed tier, and a good ability on top of that. All this simply means Jynx is 'just a great Pokemon,' but... Sleep. Sleep is just way too strong in BW. Think about it this way: even without sleep, the 3-attacks Jynx is quite the beast, it may as well be a Magmortar-type special sweeper (excellent coverage, great offensive STAB, lacking defense but /passable/ special defense, speed, etc. Jynx does not flat-out lose out to Magmortar in any of these categories, and is sometimes even significantly superior.) Sleep just puts it over the edge. In order to contain Jynx, you need a large majority of your team faster than 95 base (which is pretty darn hard, and eliminates a large portion of even the offensive metagame.) Sleep essentially is a kill-perhaps even better because it gives you setup turns. If you look at prominent sleep users in other tiers, you see some problems: most commonly predictable counters, slow speed. Jynx has neither of those weaknesses. The most worrisome part is that you don't know what its counter is until it's slept something. Basically, you have two ways to contain Jynx: either you guess its set right so that you have the proper counter still functioning, or you run everything that outspeeds it and stick lum berry on everything that doesn't (this basically means overpreparation, which is in my opinion bannable offense) Addressing the other side of the coin, it does suck that Jynx can be revenge-killed. But i thought... so did a lot of other Pokemon that has been banned throughout the history of Pokemon. It does suck that Jynx is weak to entry hazards. But if entry hazards are integral part of how you beat Jynx, you won't get anywhere against a team with a proper spinning core and/or a team that just pressures you against early SR and makes good use of Jynx before they're out. My para thus far has mostly been a rant, and I'm sure it has a lot of unaddressed holes because it's so rushed, but really, the argument for (and against) banning has been all laid out in the thread, and it's our job to make the difficult call. NatGeo (Move your mouse to reveal the content) NatGeo (open) NatGeo (close) Jynx: I personally was very against Jynx’s banning for some time, mainly because of its terrible defensive typing and the fact that some of its revenge killers were fairly common (I’ll give into the fact that these weren’t nearly as common as Gorebyss’s revenge killers were r1). However, I’ve had a few conversations with DTC a while back and quite frankly my opinion changed regarding Jynx. You could almost make a case of Jynx paralleling Durant in RU because of their similar characteristics, but that’s a whole different argument in itself. The sheer amount of sets Jynx can run alone is a headache for teams to face - any set can almost ALWAYS bluff one or more other sets for a turn or two by using Lovely Kiss or some other move. Furthermore, each of its sets are incredibly deadly in their own right. All variants of NP sweep slower teams at +2, while sets with Lovely Kiss (in this case over Nasty Plot) don’t really need the boosting move because a sleeping move on a Pokemon like Jynx really makes things difficult. I personally don’t even think the SR weakness matters *that* much at this point, considering there are plenty of other sweepers in NU who do just fine with a weakness to Stealth Rock (Charizard / Magmortar?). I personally vote for a ban. Weather Rocks: I’ve held by this opinion for a long time - weather rocks should not be allowed in NU. Sun and Rain are both much more manageable with only 3 / 4 turns to attack with a boost. Three extra turns may not seem like much, but imagine trying to hold off a mixed Floatzel when it has a good 3 or 4 turns left to attack you. That’s just one example; all of the prominent weather sweepers get a few extra turns to batter the opponent with Damp and Heat Rock. tennisace (Move your mouse to reveal the content) tennisace (open) tennisace (close) Jynx - Ban Personally, as the leader of NU, I tried my best to avoid jumping the gun and banning things because solely because people didn't like playing against them. However, there comes a point where a Pokemon gets to be too much in a metagame, regardless of whether or not it can be revenge killed or checked. Jynx had gotten to that point. It wasn't any one particular set, as many have said, it was the fact that it was almost guaranteed to put at least one Pokemon on the opposing team out of the match, whether through sleep or through a KO. In addition, all of the different Jynx sets have almost completely different checks and counters, from LK + 3 Attacks to SubNP to NP + two attacks to the rare but devastating SubCM; these are all large threats in and of themselves. The fact that you only know Jynx will be carrying Lovely Kiss and Ice Beam adds to the problem. As to the argument of "it can be revenge killed": almost every single Pokemon banned this generation in ANY tier could be revenge killed. However to be able to revenge kill something, you need to let a Pokemon on your team die, which isn't a reliable method of handling a threat, especially since there is no good way to trap Jynx outside of a Pokemon using Pursuit (of which the only one is Skuntank), and that isn't reliable since Jynx can just attack to further weaken your opponent's team. But I digress. Jynx is too versatile and too powerful to stay in NU. Weather Rocks - Don't ban I've swayed a bit on these, but the most telling thing is that outside of a few very well built weather teams, I haven't really seen much of them at all. (Not to use anecdotal evidence to make my decision, but I was able to stall out a sun team twice out of 8 turns of weather, where my only Fire resists were Golem and Magmortar, and my only Grass resists were Magmortar and Sawsbuck.) If weather teams were truly centralizing and broken, we should be seeing tons of them on the ladder. As of right now though, we aren't seeing this. There are plenty of checks for weather, be it specific Pokemon or just general users of Priority moves, or even moves like Protect; the clock ticks on for weather teams, and every turn spent switching around to get a good matchup is another turn of Sun/Rain gone. We can revisit these in the future if they get too overpowering but the fact of the matter is NU doesn't have the powerful sweepers to overpower their checks like in other tiers.