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np: NU Stage 5 - Won't Get Fooled Again

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Zebraiken, Jul 1, 2012.

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  1. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~

    Apr 3, 2012
    My favorite defensive core right now is Mawile and Grumpig. Even though both are extremely unorthodox, Mawile walls some of the prominent threats in this meta such as Cinccino, Swellow, Zangoose if it has something to take on a Close Combat, and Skuntank. Grumpig can take on most special attackers well and Thick Fat allows him to resist Fire type attacks that Mawile fears. Add Haunter to the mix and you have a great core. I haven't been seeing many Haunter in this meta even though it is amazing. It is immune to 3/4s of Zangoose's movepool and can easily disrupt many popular defensive and offensive cores with SubDisable. His biggest threat is Cinccino since it can basically OHKO him even behind a sub which I guess is the decline of his usage. I've used this core to great success on one of my teams. Btw Beheeyem is too powerful. I haven't faced one yet but after seeing what it did to cbb's Regirock, I'm afraid.

    Can people start using Fraxure? Any set (CB or DD) is amazing right now, but I haven't even played against one in the past two weeks.
  2. Alex_Arthur


    Mar 29, 2010
    So has anyone used Tauros this round at all. I think i've faced maybe one. I have used 3 different sets recently Sheer Force Life Orb , Choice Band and Choice Scarf all of which are quite good. Sheer Force LO has some serious accuracy issues Rock Climb seems to hit less than Hydro Pump but maybe it just seems that way because it misses when it matters more. Choice Scarf was a great cleaner as there are very few things that can outspeed , we are talking Choice Scarf Zebra / Cinni that can, and it doesn't exactly lack power. Choice Band is just amazing so far, i haven't used it much but using Intimidate has allowed me to win so many more games by weakening physical attackers and forcing more switches(and more hazard damage).

    It does face some big competition from Zangoose , Kanga and Cinni (amongst others) for the spot of Normal Type on a team but I really think the combination of speed and intimidate carve a bit of niche for him. I haven't tried Sheer Force on the choice sets yet but god even Zen Headbutt missing on them can be devastating so I'd rather not.

    As a side note retaliate isn't working on Showdown which is why I ditched Scarf after I failed to OHKO Gorebyss because of this.
  3. ChaoticaMortis


    Jun 24, 2011
    Choice Scarf Tauros would be a legitimate option for teams needing a Normal-type revenge killer / cleaner if Retaliate would actually work right on PS. I'd definitely give it a spin over Until that's fixed though, Tauros is going to see dismal usage simply because its niches are arguably filled better by most other offensive Normal-types.
    Speaking of Normal-types, they're actually pretty good right now. With Tauros, Zangoose, Cinccino, MOTHERFUCKINGLINOONE, Kangaskhan, and Ursaring as offensive 'mons, and with Lickilicky and Audino as defensive 'mons, there's almost no reason not to be running a Normal Pokemon right now. Hell, even the never-used of NU like Persian, Vigoroth, and Exploud are somewhat viable (oddly enough I've seen more of those three than I have of the good ones).
  4. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken underdog of the year
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Oct 7, 2011
    I still haven't received votes from shnen or Amarillo, but I'm going to post the results anyway because their votes aren't going to change them (I still need your votes, though!). Also sorry to everyone that I told I would have this up yesterday, since I got fairly lazy and didn't do it. :(

    edit: got everyone's

    key; dnb = do not ban, ban = ban, abs = abstain

    [U]Amoonguss[/U]     [u]Cinccino[/u]      [u]Zangoose[/u]    [u]Voters[/u] ([i]rotating[/i])
       dnb          dnb           dnb       Zebraiken
       dnb          dnb           ban       DTC
       dnb          dnb           dnb       Amarillo
       dnb          dnb           ban       Raseri
       abs          dnb           dnb       Django
       dnb          dnb           dnb       CrashinBoomBang
       dnb          dnb           dnb       FLCL
       dnb          dnb           dnb       [I]Keiran[/I]
       dnb          dnb           dnb       [I]ChaoticaMortis[/I]
       dnb          dnb           dnb       [I]MMF[/I]
       dnb          dnb           dnb       [I]shnen[/I]
       0-10 ([B]dnb[/B])   0-11 ([B]dnb[/B])    2-9 ([B]dnb[/B])  

    individual paragraphs:

    Zebraiken (open)
    Amoonguss -

    It's been said time and time again, so I'll keep it short and to-the-point. Amoonguss is unrivaled as a defensive Pokemon in the current metagame, and access to Regenerator + Spore is a strong niche. Aside from arguably better typing and 25% more accuracy on its sleep move, Amoonguss really isn't that much of a far cry from Tangela, who has never ever been considered 'broken'. There are a ton of ways that Amoonguss can be handled; powerful Psychic-types like Gothitelle / Gardevoir can set up on it, it's 2HKOed by some of the stronger physical Pokemon available (ie Golurk, Sawk, etc) and is flat-out OHKOed by stuff like Emboar and Braviary. While it is a centralizing Pokemon, Amoonguss still leaves a ton of room to work around it and its omnipresence can honestly be used as an advantage in teambuilding. I don't see what the cry for banning this was, and I really don't think it's broken in the current metagame.

    Do Not Ban

    Cinccino -

    Despite being one of the best offensive Pokemon available, Cinccino is clearly not broken. It's got a few complete counters and a ton of checks, both offensive and defensive. Every Steel-type available (Probopass, Bastiodon, Klang, Lairon) can keep Cinccino in check, as they resist all of Cinccino's coverage moves (Wake-Up Slap is incredibly weak...) and Cinccino's so frail that it will be 2HKOed by even the weakest of moves. Offensive Pokemon with any semblance of bulk (I'm talking about stuff like Eelektross at worst) can tank a Tail Slap and OHKO in return. It's incredibly prone to opposing Choice Scarf users and faster mons like Swellow, as well as priority in general. Defensively, Tangela and Misdreavus do a fantastic job keeping it in check, and even just bulkier Pokemon like Regirock can do well. Rocky Helmet is also always an option.

    Do Not Ban

    Zangoose -

    Easily the most controversial of the three suspects, and the only one I was borderline on all the way through. I made an enormous post in this a few days ago and I don't really feel like sitting here and trying to reword myself, so I'm just going to drop the link to that post and you can read through my reasoning if you want. here

    Do Not Ban
    DTC (open)
    Zangoose - Ban

    It's not an unknown fact that Zangoose 2HKO's pretty much everything in the tier, and guess what: it doesn't have to sacrifice Speed or the ability to switch moves to do it. Its Facade is so powerful that even most walls take upwards to 70+% damage from it. Even worse, most of the Pokemon that can actually avoid being 2HKO'd by Facade are swiftly defeated by a Close Combat or Shadow Claw. Even Regirock takes 25% minimum from Facade. You can keep on switching your Pokemon around, but eventually you're probably going to mess up with predicting. Either way, Zangoose weakened a fuckton of Pokemon on your team. It's extremely hard to prevent Zangoose from killing something because there aren't even many reliable checks; very few things can switch into any of Zangoose's attacks and then tank its strongest attack against them. In addition, most of the Rock-, Steel-, and Ghost-types that resist Facade are very easy to ware down; they will often be down to about 80% by the time Zangoose comes out.

    Sure it's a bit difficult to get Zangoose out, and you might have to sacrifice something to do so, but once it's out, there's not much stopping it from killing something. 90 base Speed is pretty fast, so there isn't all that much that is outspeeding Zangoose, and Zangoose always has that somewhat powerful priority in Quick Attack that does at least 40% damage to most Pokemon that actually outspeed it. "Forcing it out" might even be a good thing for the Zangoose user, because switching out Zangoose resets the Toxic counter.

    Zangoose's ability to wallbreak and smash through teams is too overwhelming in the tier; it's not an exaggeration that it's pretty easy to get at least 2 kills with Zangoose. I believe the tier would be better off without Zangoose.

    Amoonguss - Do Not Ban

    Amoonguss is definitely a fantastic pivot, but I don't think it's broken at all. If you look at the top 10 Pokemon in the stats, you notice that 7 of them can beat Amoonguss, and that 3 of them do it with ease. Amoonguss' typing isn't bad defensively - in fact, it's pretty good defensively - but it opens up Amoonguss to a ton of abusable weaknesses. Fire, Ice, Flying, and Psychic weaknesses are all very crippling in the NU metagame. Especially Psychic with all of the fantastic Psychic-types around such as Musharna and Gardevoir. Amoonguss truly doesn't wall that much, and many Pokemon it needs Synthesis to reliably wall, which there isn't much room for. Another thing greatly cripples Amoonguss: it's not really threatening offensively at all. Once it uses Spore on something, it's very easy to switch-in to. It won't be OHKO'ing anything. It won't even be 2HKO'ing most things. In addition, many Pokemon can set-up right on Amoonguss, such as Substitute + Swords Dance Lickilicky, Substitute + Roost Articuno, and Calm Mind Musharna. I agree that Spore is very annoying, but luckily NU does have a few Pokemon that can switch-in to Spore, such as Magmar, Sawsbuck, and Miltank.

    Cinccino - Do Not Ban

    Cinccino has plenty of solid checks and counters in NU. Tangela, Cradily, Probopass, Shelgon, Klang, and Misdreavus are all good Pokemon that easily counter Life Orb Cinccino. Choice Band Cinccino isn't that better, especially considering the fact that it can't switch moves. You can easily switch into something like Amoonguss to see what move Cinccino is using and if it's Tail Slap, switch out to any Rock-type. Unlike Zangoose, Cinccino can't bypass priority without using Substitute which it has little room for.

    Cinccino's presence is arguably bad for the metagame, in the fact that it makes frail Substitute users somewhat unviable; however, Cinccino's presence also increases item diversity: it made Rocky Helmet more viable. Rocky Helmet isn't just used to greatly weaken Cinccino; it's just a great item that saw significantly more usage when Cinccino got Skill Link. It's just another thing the NU players came up with in meta shifts and another thing that makes NU unique compared to other tiers.
    Amarillo (open)
    Amoonguss: Do not ban, unless sleep itself is determined to be broken. Without the sleep aspect, Amoonguss is just a great wall that's easily set up on --if you have the right team composition. Without Sleep, Amoonguss is not strong enough to force anything--quite a contrast with Jynx, who was strong enough to force lots of things, and then have Sleep on top of that.

    Cinccino: Do not ban. Cinccino just replaces the common Normal sweepers. It beats Golem, but really that's not enough of a reason for anything. Lets ignore the Rocky Helmet business, it's easily revenged through scarfers and priority. It gets walled depending on what moves it carries, or gets left without U-turn, a good utility. For defensive teams its dealt with a combination of strong physical walls (and there's lots of viable ones in NU) and not switching around mindlessly.

    Zangoose: Do not ban. Zangoose, along with Cinccino just replaced the common normal sweepers. It beats Rock/Steel, but so did lots of EQ'ing normals. Easily worn down, priority and Scarfers revenges it. For defensive teams its dealt with a combination of strong physical walls (and there's lots of viable ones in NU) and not switching around mindlessly. Zeb has more eloquence than I can muster in my recent days.
    Raseri (open)
    Zangoose is Broken. I've gone over it many times but it is just far to hard to stop in NU - perfect coverage, STAB Facade, potential to use Swords Dance (which even though non of the council members use, when I used it it was deadly). It gives the user momentum just by switching in, and the harm for a misprediction is generally less deadly than the opponent mispredicting. It is a huge threat in the NU metagame and nearly impossible to prepare for without either sacirficing something and revenge killing it (news flash: It can switch out of revenge kills, it already has toxic orb activated). Or running A combination such as Probopass and Haunter, and hoping you never mispredict. Ever. Zangoose is absolutely ridiculous in the metagame and should be sent to BL3 because of it.

    Cinccino - As much as I want to ban it I can't. There are enough ways to both check and counter it in the tier to make it not broken. Such as Alomomola, Piloswine, Probopass, Bastiodon, even Regirock. The rise of Rocky Helmet to check it also makes it even easier - since one misprediction means a dead Cinccino. It is fast and annoying to deal with, but is not broken in this metagame.

    Amoonguss - Amoonguss is similar to Cinccino in that I don't want it in the tier but it isn't broken. Spore is the only part of Amoonguss that is remotely broken, as a well-timed Spore can be more deadly to the opposition then a kill. Outside of Spore Amoonguss isn't that great, Regenerator makes it hard to wear down, but enough Pokemon can OHKO it anyways. Many prominent metagames absolutely destroy Amoonguss, such as Emboar, Braviary, Swellow etc... It is really only threatening when paired with Alomomola, but as an individual Pokemon Amoonguss is not even remotely broken.
    Django (open)
    Amoonguss: I feel that Amoonguss 100% does not belong in NU. It is almost certain that it will be moving up in the next tier shifts, and waiting for it to do so because of formalities seems counter productive to me. Spore is, in my opinion, one of the worst moves to happen to competitive Pokemon (particularly with Gen 5 sleep mechanics). When a Pokemon with such incredible survivability such as Amoonguss uses it then the problem just gets compounded. Despite this, it is not broken in the traditional sense. The problems I stated with it are primarily personal though, and as such I feel I am too biased to vote on Amoonguss hence: Abstain

    With the release of Skill Link, Cinccino has gone from yet another NU threat to perhaps the most defining Pokemon of this round (Amoonguss outstanding). The need to run a Normal resist / immunity has shot up, as have niche counters to Cinccino like Rocky Helmet (which is a great item anyway) and Pokemon like Klang. Coverage moves which allow it to hit most troublesome opposition also make it somewhat difficult to predict around and switch into. Carrying a Rock-type like Regirock or Carracosta and any Pokemon capable of taking Grass attacks (read: Amoonguss) will completely stop Cinccino, especially if you run Rocky Helmet on any of them. For more offensive teams, a number of Ghost-types make acceptable checks while other Pokemon like Serperior or Vileplume can make fine switchins.

    The main problem with Cinccino is that it is incredibly frail. It does not enjoy switching in to anything but Choice locked Ghost moves (which are basically limited to Haunter, and even then Cinccino cannot really risk switching into it). Because of this, its usefulness in actually breaking down teams in real game situations is severely limited, and often it finds itself struggling to make an impact at all. This situation is not helped by the fact that many of the checks to Cinccino were already very popular in NU to check Swellow and Braviary, and now also double up to check Zangoose. All in all Cinccino has certainly affected NU, but not to the point of breaking it. Do Not Ban.

    Zangoose has been the suspect I had the most difficulty deciding on. On one hand it hits incredibly hard virtually straight off the bat, can change move and has great coverage + priority to boot. On the other hand it is frail, hard to get into a battle and readily checked by a number of popular NU Pokemon. The most dangerous and indeed popular set is the 4 Attacks set, one of the best late game sweepers in the current metagame. However, provided you think about how you are playing and carry some decent Zangoose checks (i.e. have a decent team) then losing to it should be rare. As I stated in my Cinccino paragraphs, Rock and Steel types are essential on virtually every NU team, as being able to switch in to Braviary, Swellow and Cinccino is absolutely essential. Being prepared for these threats will also prepare a team for Zangoose. Zangoose does have the luxary of switching moves and breaking through most of the checks with Close Combat however, and this is where the main reasoning behind my decision on Zangoose lies: Zangoose forces players to predict, both the user and the opponent. One solid prediction against Zangoose can easily swing a match in your favour (switching Haunter in on any move but Night Slash, for example), and the same can be said for the Zangoose user (using Night Slash on the Haunter switch). Forcing prediction like this is, in my opinion, an incredibly positive thing for the metagame. Getting players to use their head and play around something which is quite honestly a borderline case can only have positive repurcussions.

    Anyway, as I mentioned Zangoose is very much borderline for me. It does have a number of solid checks in the form of Regirock, Carracosta, Haunter, as well as a whole slew of revenge killers and priority users. Carrying one or more of these on a team is not difficult, and will often end up happening without considering Zangoose, such is the usefulness of priority, speed and Rock or Ghost typing in NU. Conversely, Zangoose posseses the necessary tools (Close Combat / Night Slash) to get around these checks by predicting. It struggles to avoid revenge killing (and priority not named Sucker Punch) as it cannot afford the luxary of switching in multiple times, mainly due to its fraility and lack of useful immunites / resistances. To top it all off, Zangoose is always Poisoned, meaning wearing it down through smart switching and simply not giving it opportunities to have the free turns it wants is relatively simple. Even attacks from walls will cripple Zangoose to the point where it is not useful anymore, all due to that Toxic poison.

    Overall, Do Not Ban Zangoose. Its close, but no ban.
    CrashinBoomBang (open)
    Amoonguss: Do not ban

    While the addition of Regenerator definitely took Amoonguss to a whole new level, I don't think that it is broken in the current metagame. It is, in many aspects, very similar to Tangela; while the latter has a lot more physical bulk, the former has Spore, a resistance to Fighting attacks as well as more Special Defense. However, even its great bulk doesn't protect it from being 2HKO'd by Pokemon such as special Samurott, Zangoose, Cinccino or OHKO'd by Pokemon such as Exeggutor, Braviary and Emboar, all of which are common threats nowadays. Spore is also a great move, but most users of sleeping moves have the bulk to fire it off more than once, meaning it really isn't all too special. All in all, Amoonguss is a fantastic wall in the Neverused metagame, but is by no means unbreakable or even banworthy.

    Cinccino: Do not ban

    While Cinccino is a very fast and, thanks to Skill Link, pretty powerful attacker, it does have some issues. For one, it needs a boosting item to do significant damage which means that it either loses health thanks to Life Orb or can't switch moves thanks to Choice Band; in the former case residual damage will stack extremely quickly while walling its move is incredibly easy in the latter case. Either way, Cinccino needs a huge deal of prediction to work successfully. It can U-turn out, sure, but that just means it'll take more damage from entry hazards. It also has some incredibly solid switch-ins such as Bastiodon, Probopass, Lairon and even Regirock while Amoonguss and Alomomola, two of the most common Pokemon around, also beat it one-on-one as long as they don't switch into a wrong move (and even that can be healed off through Regenerator). Furthermore, Cinccinos paper-like defenses mean that revenge killing it with a faster Pokemon such as Scarfed Emboar/Sawk/Braviary is easily done. Priority from the likes of Absol and Zangoose also shortens its lifespan dramatically. Overall, Cinccino can be a real offensive threat if used effectively, but its bad defenses, reliance on spot-on prediction, weakness to entry hazards and residual damage in general as well as a number of very solid switch-ins mean that Cinccino has a tough time to do anything at all in most battles; that's why I'm of the opinion that it isn't even close to being broken.

    Zangoose: Do not Ban

    Zangoose, which is arguably the best Pokemon in NU right now, is on a very, very fine line between broken and not broken for me. On one hand, Zangoose is an offensive powerhouse with a great speed tier and able to 2HKO pretty much everything in the tier while also carrying extremely powerful priority. On the other hand, it takes damage from Toxic Orb every turn and both offensive and defensive teams have the tool to deal with it without getting damaged too badly: more defensively inclined teams have Pokemon such as Amoonguss and Regirock which, even though they take a great deal of damage, survive a hit while hurting Zangoose greatly in return; even though sacrifices may have to be made in the process, defensive teams really shouldn't need more than one to take Zangoose down in most cases. If it ends up sweeping a weakened team then chances are most other sweepers would have done the same at that point. If nothing else helps, defensive teams can also try to play around Zangoose as a last resort but that should, as previously stated, not necessary in a great majority of cases. Offensive teams, on the other hand, should have multiple Pokemon that can take it down one-on-one such as faster Choice Scarf users, Cinccino, Tauros, Offensive Regirock, Carracosta and even the occassional Electabuzz. Again, offensive teams may need to sacrifice Pokemon in the process, but Zangoose doesn't get free switch-ins against such teams anyway, meaning the Zangoose player has to make sacrifices of his own at some point. All of the Pokemon I listed are great and saw use even without Zangoose in the tier so it definitely doesn't force people to run unusual Pokemon just to deal with it. While Zangoose is probably a step above most other sweepers, there is a very interesting thing about it: it forces people to prioritize their sacrifices and makes thinking more elementary than ever. That is why Zangoose should, in my opinion, not be banned: It doesn't have any visible negative impact on the metagame and might even extend the thought processes of many players, making the Neverused metagame as a whole a better tier.
    FLCL (open)

    Do not ban. Disregard my comments in the Zangoose Suspect Discussion thread. Zangoose should not be banned simply because it cannot run through a team unless the opponent is a completely inadequate player. There are multiple ways deal with it, such as switching around and resisting its extremely obvious attacks or revenge killing it with a healthy Pokemon that is faster. Well built balanced and offensive teams generally have at least two or more Pokemon that are faster than Zangoose while defensive teams are usually filled with extremely bulky Pokemon such as Amoonguss, Alomomola, and Misdreavus, which commonly carry Protect and can take a hit from Zangoose, if the player predicts incorrectly. In these scenarios, Zangoose will commonly get none or one kill before going down, which does not justify it as being broken.


    Do not ban. Cinccino is a powerful attacker, but it has multiple counters in the tier, such as Probopass, Bastiodon, Mawile, Tangela, and Misdreavus. The former three forces Cinccino to use the highly situational Wake-Up Slap and forgo a precious move slot while the latter two can simply wall it. It is also extremely vulnerable to priority, and can be picked off easily by Absol, Skuntank, or Samurott after a bit of prior damage. Rocky Helmet Pokemon such as Carracosta, Regirock, and Amoonguss forces Cinccino to think twice about using Tail Slap, and are completely viable outside of countering Cinccino.


    Do not ban. Outside of Spore, Amoonguss is simply a solid physical wall that cannot take super effective hit very well, comparable to Musharna, Alomomola, and Tangela, all of which are solidly NU. There are many viable Pokemon such as Substitute plus Calm Mind Gardevois and Swords Dance Lickilicky that can use it as set-up bait while common physical attacker such as Choice Band Emboar or Braviary can OHKO it with ease. Spore is Amoonguss' main selling point, but the accuracy doesn't differ from Sleep Powder too much. I'm sure nobody relied on Tangela or Exeggutor missing Sleep Powder to deal with them. There are many ways to play around Amoonguss, such as using a weakened Pokemon or something that won't be as effective in the current match for fodder, or using Sap Sipper Miltank or Sawsbuck, both of which are great Pokemon in their own respect.[/QUOTE]
    Keiran (open)
    Cinccino: Do Not Ban

    Despite all the initial hype Cinccino received during BW2's release, it's proven to be somewhat underwhelming in my opinion. Unlike Zangoose, it is not without its counters, Steel-types such as Probopass, Bastiodon and Klang can easily take anything Cinccino has to throw at them, while all Cinccino can do is take Life Orb recoil. Additionally, items such as Rocky Helmet on Pokemon like Amoonguss have become popular solely to beat Cinccino. Its defenses don't do Cinccino any favours either, with 75 / 60 / 60 defences, Cinccino isn't taking even weak attacks. Unlike its cousin Zangoose, Cinccino doesn't have any priority moves under its belt, meaning the abundance of priority users in the tier, such as Skuntank, Absol, Gurdurr, Samurott and Zangoose, all have an easy time against Ciccino.

    Amoonguss: Do Not Ban

    Amoonguss is only a threat while Sleep Clause is disengaged; which isn't enough to be banned in my opinion. Unlike Jynx - who was banned for its sleep inducing move Lovely Kiss - Amoonguss doesn't have the offensive power that Jynx has. After sleep clause has been engaged, its numerous weaknessses can be exploited, such as its weakness to Fire, Flying and Psychic. All of which are common in the tier. In addition, its mediocre offensive stats lead it to be set up on by various bulky attackers such as SubSD Lickilicky, Klang, and Articuno. In addition, the newly released Gothitelle can trap it and eliminate Amoonguss with Shadow Tag and its Psychic STAB moves.

    Zangoose: Do Not Ban

    Personally, I am not sure as to whether Zangoose is broken or not. On one hand it posseses frightening power and nothing truly counters it. While on the other, due to Toxic Boost, it is constantly on a timer, limiting its potential as a sweeper. Especially given that its Normal-type STAB is commonly resisted.

    ChaoticaMortis (open)
    Okay, let's get it.

    Amoonguss: Ah, Amoonguss. One of my best friends last round, and for good reason: He's one of the best walls in NU. Very good? Definitely. Broken? Absolutely not.
    The only factors about Amoonguss that would even make it a suspect would be Regenerator and Spore, both of which aren't that hard to work around. I mean, Tangela has basically been able to do the exact same things that Amoonguss can do now since the first round of NU, and nobody was calling for a ban on Tang. Yeah, Amoonguss has a better defensive typing and Spore is more accurate than Sleep Powder. So what? He's Tangela 2.0, a nice upgrade that is noticeably better than the previous version. That doesn't make him broken, that makes him good.
    Digging deeper, Amoonguss's real power lies in Spore, which is probably the main reason he's a suspect. The thing about Spore is that it can be beaten by Sap Sipper, Vital Spirit, Insomnia, or a Pokemon already inflicted with a status condition. Even if Spore hits, that makes Amoonguss a hell of a lot less threatening, because now you don't have to worry about it sleeping more of your Pokemon; it's basically down to 3 attacks that aren't going to do shit damage-wise. Speaking of Amoonguss's other attacks, they aren't that great. Its SpAtk stat is pretty average, and won't be taking down anything big that threatens it. Let's not forget that he's outsped by virtually every viable Pokemon in the tier.
    Even when used in a core with Alomomola, Amoonguss still isn't broken because there are plenty of viable 'mons (such as Rotom-F) that can take the core down without breaking a sweat. Good prediction skills and solid team-building / preparation also reduce Amoonguss's effectiveness.
    If it wasn't apparent by now, I'm voting no ban on Amoonguss.

    Cinccino: Cinccino definitely suffered from Gorebyss syndrome this round; everyone hyped it up, claimed it was broken, and few players really tried adapting to it until the end of the round. Skill Link does give Cinccino three attacks with 125 bp, but does that really push it over the edge compared to when it used Technician? It still does virtually the same thing it used to do, except now it's more reliable. Again, we have an upgrade situation. Cinccino 2.0 is simply a better version of the original. The only set Cinccino even runs that's worthy of being suspected is the LO set, which takes a fuck-ton of damage just from the constant switching and LO recoil. Priority rips it apart and defensive 'mons can beat it with good prediction. Let's also not forget how easy it is to revenge kill, as all common Pokemon that we already used to revenge kill other threats take care of Cinccino as well. Like Amoonguss, I used this quite a bit this round and found it to be a great Pokemon, just not one that was game-breaking.
    No ban, Cinccino is not broken, it's just close to the top of the good Normal-type pile.

    Zangoose: Mother of God, this thing is powerful. The love-child of Ursaring and Swellow, Zangoose has an excellent balance of Atk and Spe, which have allowed it to become the largest offensive threat in the entire metagame. A simple 4 attacks set has the ability to 2HKO practically every Pokemon in NU while maintaining the ability to switch attacks as well as dish out priority. I'll be quite honest, I thought it was pretty broken until I started looking into it a little more.
    The problem with Zangoose is that you have to play with it perfectly to get more than 1 KO with it, otherwise it just blows up on itself without being able to do anything. Yes, it is hard to play around, but that doesn't make it broken either. Zangoose cannot afford to lose any of its HP as Toxic Orb is constantly draining it, which makes switching in somewhat difficult unless your opponent is being stupid or you lose a 'mon to bring it in. Hazards are a pain in the ass as well, as most Zangoose can't just come in and sweep, which forces them to switch in and out a bit. Priority cuts Zangoose down. Quick 'mons can revenge kill it. We have a few counters such as SubDisable Haunter that just do not give a fuck about anything Zangoose can attempt to do to them.
    The funny thing about this is that I'm still on the fence about Zang. I think his offensive power is just a little too high when grouped with his speed, but he dies almost as fast as Cinccino does. I was instructed to vote for not banning if I wasn't completely convinced that Zangoose was broken, so that's what I'm going to do. No ban.
    MMF (open)
    Amoonguss: Do Not Ban
    Oh Amoonguss you annoying shroom, why must you be so good? I know a lot of hype has been around Amoonguss with it leaving to OU soon(I think?) and a few people have wanted it gone mainly for that reason but to be honest Amoonguss isn't broken in the slightest. If anything its moderately annoying because of Spore but frankly if you don't have something to handle Sleep status then you need to play a tad bit more. Things like SubCM Gardevoir have no problems with Amoonguss and by extension the Regen core since it can just sub up and go to town. Not to mention the newly acquired Shadow Tag Gothitelle can also beat Amoonguss pretty handily. I think that if you are having troubles with Amoonguss after all this time then you need to rethink how you're team is structured.

    Cinccino: Do Not Ban
    I'm not gonna lie I had been on the fence about Cinccino when it first came out and I was hopping on the ban train pretty quickly after the first few days. But then I realized Cinccino is pretty underwhelming. Its frail as all hell and it has to predict absolutely perfectly to even cause damage to some of NU's physical walls. And even then Pokemon like Regirock and Bastiodon can either go for the Drain Punch to recover HP or Roar to make Cincy take hazards damage on the next switch in. Did I also mention that priority is absolutely everywhere right now? That makes it incredibly hard for Cinccino to function properly when moves like Mach Punch, Sucker Punch, Aqua Jet are thrown around willy nilly. Oh but MMF, Cinccino is so fast? Help what do I do if I hate priority? Use a scarfer. I'm not even joking. Scarf Rotom-S, Scarf Gardevoir are still good Pokemon and both outspeed and smash Cinccino. There are multiple ways to deal with Cinccino(Rocky Helmet!) and all of those ways are good for other Pokemon as well not just Cinccino. Cinccino is a good fit for the metagame and should stay right where it is. That cute bastard.

    Zangoose aka THE BOSS: Do Not Ban
    The man. The myth. The legend. ZANGOOOOOSE! Goose has had some serious discussion around him lately and with good reason. Zangoose is a very powerful Pokemon and deserves to be suspected. However having said that I don't think it should be banned and here's why:

    Its kinda in the same boat as Cinccino but slower and stronger. The thing is with Zangoose is that its on a clock with poison damage slowly draining its health so as long as you switch smart and have resists to his attacking types(which isn't too hard as most people have a normal resist/immunity as is) you can take down a good portion of his HP. Secondly Zangoose is also vulnerable to priority,granted it can bypass Sucker Punch with Quick Attack but it can be hit very hard by Mach Punch and opposing Quick Attacks. To me Zangoose is like our Terrakion. It hits like a train but can be beaten if you play smart and have a solid team. But that also means that if you let your checks die, you'll be swept. Thats why you have to play smart against Zangoose users.

    Yeah I copy and pasted that from the Suspect Discussion thread but my view hasn't changed at all. But I will add some stuff to that, mainly the fact that most offensive teams have something that can revenge Zangoose and also have a lot of priority and defensive teams can take a few hits from Zangoose and usually have one or two mons that can avoid the OHKO and strike back for some damage. Thats kinda my view on Zangoose. Its very strong and makes you really think but the things that check it and revenge fit easily onto to most teams so Zangoose gets a no ban from me.
    shnen (open)
    This really isn’t ban worthy in any way in my opinion. While it is a great defensive Pokemon, it is nothing more; the only thing that could possibly break it is Spore and that can be played around semi easily. There is so much common shit in the metagame that can kill Amoonguss, such as Emboar, Swellow, Musharna and of course mother fucking Gothitelle (even if Amoonguss was broken before Gothitelle’s release which it wasn’t Gothitelle would probably single handedly change that) et al that arguments for it being broken are just pretty silly. At its core it’s a less bulky Tangela with a Fighting resistance and a more accurate sleeping move, and I don’t think that goes anywhere near breaking it ( I actually prefer Tangela but yeah that isn’t too relevant lol); the bulk loss actually means that it’s unable to beat some of the top NU physical mons, i.e. Zangoose and Cinccino (252Atk Choice Band Cinccino (Neutral) Tail Slap vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Amoonguss (+Def): 52% - 62% (225 - 270 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. Or 252Atk Life Orb Cinccino (+Atk) Tail Slap vs 252HP/252Def Amoonguss (+Def): 48% - 60% (210 - 260 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 28% chance to 2HKO.
    252Atk Toxic Boost poisoned Zangoose (Neutral) Facade vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Amoonguss (+Def): 65% - 77% (283 - 334 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.) Definitely do not ban.


    While Cinccino is strong and fast, the metagame has adapted to it and it really hasn’t lived up to the original hype. Us NU players are too prone to hyping stuff up x_x (see: Gorebyss). Cinccino has a fair amount of hard counters (Lairon, Bastiodon, Klang, Probopass, Missy and Tangela kind of etc) and a decent number of checks (rocky helmet Amoonguss/Regirock, Gurdurr etc), in addition to the fact that it just dies so damn fast from hazards, possible LO recoil and horrible frailty. Also the fact that scarfers are on every good team and Absol/Skuntank are common as well as Samurott and Gurdurr means that Cinccino is constantly in danger of death. Anyone who is good at NU can play around Cinccino fairly easily. Do not ban.

    Zangoose is definitely the most iffy of the suspects. It has perfect coverage and a free CB boost at the cost of being on a Toxic timer. It has almost no hard counters (only really Synthesis Tangela and Alomomola could count as that but even then hazards can get it past them), and has quick attack to do severe damage to stuff trying to revenge it. Despite this, it is obviously extremely frail and basically is only ever used in conjunction with a Toxic Orb meaning it is always on a ‘timer’. It is also slower than Cinccino, meaning stuff like Tauros, Sawsbuck, Rapidash, Swoobat, Haunter et al outspeed it and do heavy damage. Despite its power and coverage however, if you are a good player who knows how to prioritise sacrifices and with a well built team it is extremely hard to straight up lose to it. Every good team has a few plans for it, and at the end of the day Zangoose relies heavily on prediction; if you predict well then you will not lose to it. The Zangoose user has to play perfectly pretty much to be able to do really significant damage with it (i.e. more than 1 kill per game). Zangoose necessitates smart playing, but it can definitely be played around. Do not ban.

    Anyway, this np: thread is dead and gone so I'm going to open a new one soon. Gimme suggestions for songs! :D
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