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np: NU Stage 6 - Magic Black Woman

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Zebraiken, Aug 18, 2012.

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  1. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

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    I prefer HP Ground - it goes really well with Blizzard (which is still a good move, even with 70% accuracy) and Volt Switch/Thunderbolt/Thunder, and allows Rotom-F to handle most Steel-types adequately. As a TrickScarfer I view Rotom-F to be the best in both NU and RU. Electric/Ice may not be terrific defensively, but it does allow you a lot of offensive merit both STAB-wise and coveragewise (you could even run HP Fire, or HP Fighting, and not lose any coverage potential).
  2. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken what's important
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    to be honest, though, everything that you want to hit with hp ground can simply be volt switched out of bar stuff like golem, but that's decimated by hp ice anyway. having additional coverage outside of STAB boltbeam in NU is really unnecessary imo since there's nothing in particular you need to hit. a reliable stab move is preferential - there are scenarios where you simply cannot rely on that 70% accuracy to bail you out when simply using hp ice would have sufficed.
  3. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    @Zeb
    I agree completely on Rotom-F, I've been using it over Spin forme because my team appreciated an Electric-type resist over a Fighting one (I had Musharna for crying out loud to deal with those!) and never looked back. I generally don't like Scarf Pokemon in general, much less a Stealth Rock weak one, as I would much rather grab some Specs and Band Pokemon and start spamming their STAB attacks. However Rotom-F has totally brought new light to Scarf user towards me, it's truly been a fantastic Pokemon every time I have used it. I have been using the set I mentioned on IRC that I've been using this for a while now:

    [​IMG]
    Rotom-F @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Volt Switch
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Trick

    When I used it with Blizzard over WoW I never really used it ever, and I was hearing similar cases with other people such as FLCL and Incon so after a bit I decided to change it. Will-O-Wisp was chosen because I have had many situations after I Tricked elsewhere where my Rotom was pitted against an Absol or Skuntank, who were ready to Sucker Punch, and Rotom was too weak to be useful if I attempted to switch it out due to Stealth Rock. In those situations and many others WoW has come in handy a lot of the time to the point that I can can it clutch. As an example I have gone for Trick as my opponent switched to a Choice Band Eelektross. After trading items I burned it, weakening it tremendously with its Attack being cut in half and it losing its boosting item. Rotom-F lived the Drain Punch and was free to live and Trick its new item off to a different wall whenever needed, while giving the rest of my team an easier time switching into Eel.
  4. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~

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    Rotom-F is a pretty great Pokemon that often gets overshadowed by his cousin, Rotom-S (even thought the two shouldn't really be compared.) I think that both are great Pokemon, but Rotom-S is easier to fit on teams since most of the time the Fighting-resistance and Grass-resistance is more appreciated than an Ice-resistance and Electric-resistance, but this isn't the situation always. Other than the obvious scarf form posted above, I think that Rotom-F can run a very effective SubSplit/SubWisp set with its amazing dual STABs.

    [​IMG]
    Rotom-F @ Life Orb / Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid / Modest Nature
    - Substitute
    - Pain Split / Will-O-Wisp
    - Blizzard / Hidden Power Ice
    - Thunderbolt

    This set makes use of Rotom-F's amazing STABs and its ability to force switches. Pain Split allows it to recover HP while Will-O-Wisp can be used to spread burns. Blizzard and Thunderbolt are strong STABs, but HP Ice can be used if you hate misses. Max investment in Special Attack and Speed allows it to hit hard and fast. A possible bulky investment can be used, but it doesn't make the best of this set's attributes.

    Other than Rotom-F, CB Sawk should be used a lot more. It decimates teams with its great coverage, power, and speed. Piloswine is also really great, and it always does really well in every match. I also find it kind of funny how Rotom-F resists Piloswine's STABs while Piloswine resists Rotom-F's STABs due to Thick Fat.

    What are your guys favorite underused Pokemon that perform well in this metagame? I'd really like to see some new potential kn Pokemon that don't cross my mind.
  5. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    Did someone say underused? While we're talking about Rotom-Frost, I'll bring up 2 other Ice-type Pokemon that could use more love: Piloswine and Regice. I'll talk about Piloswine for today and anybody that has used Regice and can follow this post up with their experiences are more than welcome to do so.

    [​IMG]
    Piloswine (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Icicle Spear
    - Ice Shard


    Piloswine is one of the manliest Pokemon and best users use Stealth Rock in the tier. With 100/80/60 backed up by Eviolite and Thick Fat Piloswine is set to take hits like they were nothing while being capable of dishing hits with its STAB Ground- and Ice-type attacks coming off its good base 100 Attack. Piloswine's unique Ice/Ground typing and Thick Fat make it one of the 2 Ice-type Pokemon with more resists and immunities than weaknesses. This typing makes it so that Piloswine is not weak to Stealth Rock and give it a cool resist to BoltBeam. It does suffer from being a little bit of a Ludicolo bait, as it resists Earthquake and takes neutral damage from Icicle Spear. However the positives highly outshine the negatives as Piloswine is an excellent Bird check and a useful member of any team since it has priority. Piloswine's STAB combinations achieve perfect coverage in NU barring one somewhat common Pokemon, Rotom-F (which Annoyer, Zeb, and I talked about a bit back!) Piloswine and Rotom-F are an awkward position against each other as they can't hurt each other with solely their STAB attacks. Piloswine will generally lose due to Rotom-F being able to Trick away its Eviolite or in the case of my Rotom-F set, burning it with Will-o-Wisp. Piloswine can use Superpower if it really wants to deal with Rotom-F, but its utility in Icicle Spear and Ice Shard is too good to give up. Piloswine's EVs allow it to outspeed Standard Golem and Shell Smash Torkoal while giving it maximum Attack and bulk to fulfill its role as a bulky offensive Pokemon. Overall Piloswine is a great Flying-type check, excellent user of Stealth Rock, and a fantastic bulky offensive Pokemon that should be used way more often that it is at the moment.
  6. Detective Dell

    Detective Dell Winter Hibernation of the Yarnasauruses
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    I'm a little confused of what purpose that 12 EVs would serve, other than just giving it a little more speed. Piloswine can run 16 Speed EVs to outpace Max Speed Torkoal, or otherwise I'd be clueless about any other options.
  7. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    FLCL will be mad reading that ;_; 12 Spe Evs is the generally accepted EV spread that Pokemon near that speed range use to outspeed Standard Golem and base 50 Pokemon. (This was a lot more important back in BW1 NU where Golem, Regirock, and Vileplume where everywhere and outspeeding them was so beneficial it became a national speed creep competition) Since SMASHKOAL is becoming more popular I will change the spread on my post to 16 Speed to hit 140 and outpace it. (I already do this, but we take our pride in incognito speed creeping AgentDeli)

    guess I'll have to speed creep even further ehuehuehue
  8. Awmgnoob

    Awmgnoob

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    Oooft, might have to give that Piloswine a go, thanks EBeast.
  9. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~

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    Since we're on the topic of Ice-types, let me introduce you to one of the most overlooked Ice-types in the tier: Articuno.

    [​IMG]

    Although it has a 4-times Stealth Rock weakness, its access to Roost mitigates that problem slightly while reliable spinners such as SD Armaldo or SMASHKOAL can get rid of Rocks. Its amazing stats lets it use many sets varying from Defensive to Offensive. Phenomenal STAB moves in Hurricane and Ice Beam allow Articuno to hit the majority of the metagame hard while sporting a pretty good base 85 Speed stat allowing it to outspeed opposing base 70s and speedtieing with other base 85 Pokemon such as Sawk. A Specially Defensive set can be used taking advantage of moves such as Heal Bell and Roar. A SubRoost set also be utilized to take advantage or pressure and its good dual STABs. Even gimmicky sets such as Tailwind or Choice Specs work well with the correct team support.

    Articuno definitely deserves more usage than it is getting at the moment since a 4-times Stealth Rock weakness doesn't make it a terrible Pokemon, it just limits its capabilities. Play to its strengths, and you will certainly not be disappointed.
  10. ium

    ium dein haar riecht gut
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    articuno is definitely a cool pokémon. its offensive set is extremely underrated yet ice/flying hits so much aside from steels that it's just ridiculous. but anyway, for the life orb set, what's the last move of choice for you guys? substitute or hidden power ground? i find that since articuno scares so many things out, substitute on the switch is pretty cool to mitigate the fact that it's outsped by a lot of threatening things (if only its base speed was slightly higher), but i'd really like to hit stuff like klang harder just in case. :( i just want to see other reasons for choosing one move over another and what you guys think.

    oh, and i'm actually quite interested in the scarf wisp rotom-f. i definitely want to try that out sometime soon. i've always found that i need something to switch into ice and electric attacks anyway since the fighting resistance that rotom-s gives isn't really as helpful (at least for me).
  11. WhiteDMist

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    Well, when I used Articuno a couple of months ago, I chose HP ground over Substitute due to the prevalence of Cinccino and other Rock Blast users in the tier. I also preferred a more offensive approach, and dealing with Steels was very useful. I feel it depends on the nature: I chose to use a Modest nature for the power, so HP Ground was more effective. If Timid is your nature of choice, Substitute would be the better move because you outspeed more, and so can set up on a wider variety of Pokemon (like Adamant Banded Sawk). Will-o-Wisp on Scarf ROtom-F sounds very interesting though, so I plan on trying it the next time I use Rotom-F.
  12. IceSpade

    IceSpade

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    I once used a non-Choiced Rotom-F with Wide Lens. It is a nice surprise against a lot of things.

    Rotom-F @ Wide Lens
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Blizzard
    - Thunderbolt / Thunder / Volt Switch
    - Toxic
    - Will-O-Wisp

    You no longer have to deal with Blizzard's low accuracy with this set. Thunderbolt can be used to fake a choice set, Thunder can take advantage of Wide Lens, and Volt Switch can be used for scouting or faking a choice set. Toxic is used against walls while Will-o-wisp is used against physical sweepers, both taking advantage of Wide Lens too.
  13. citro

    citro

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    Well since Sand Veil is now banned, it's time to think of new Cacturne sets. He's still my favorite spiker in NU because of his sheer power and the utility of Sucker Punch. I've been using him on an offensive spikes stacking team with stuff like CB Sawk, Special Samurott, and Golurk to wear down rock & steel types and open up a path for Swellow to sweep. (yes I stole Molk's idea from his swellow team) Anyway Cacturne has been working really well for me, the support and offensive presence he provides is well worth a spot on a team imo. This is the set I've been running, it's kind of weird and there might be a better way to take advantage of his movepool now that Encore and Bullet Seed are gone, but that's where you come in :)

    No Brain (Cacturne) @ Life Orb / Leftovers / Yache Berry / whatever
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Lonely Nature
    - Substitute
    - Giga Drain
    - Sucker Punch
    - Spikes

    Takes advantage of the switches it forces to set up Subs. Even with just 4 SAtk EVs I'm pretty sure Giga Drain outdamages Seed Bomb on stuff like Golem, Regirock, Alomomola, but its main draw is the great healing it provides. Substitute is such a useful move to have - forcing stuff to attack you (I think Cinccino dies to LO Sucker Punch for example) and blocking status, which is really handy. You can often get up 2-3 layers of Spikes just from a well-timed Alomomola switch. I think I could possibly invest more EVs in special attack, but i'm not really sure what are good speeds to hit so yeah. Any tips for using the cool cactus would be appreciated :)
  14. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist PU! We don't stink though!
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    Well that IS an interesting way to use Cacturne, but I see no reason to go mixed with it. The standard set is still just as useful, and can still set up Spikes pretty well.

    Cacturne @ Leftovers/Yache Berry
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Substitute
    - Spikes
    - Sucker Punch
    - Seed Bomb

    The Speed EVS let Cacturne outspeed max Speed base 45s (Golem) since most base 55s don't usually run max Speed (or else they run a +Spe nature regardless). Leftovers is the norm, but Yache Berry has situational use since at full health, it lets you live an Ice Beam from even Modest Ludicolo (you even have the tiniest of chances to survive an Ice Beam from +2 Timid White Herb Gorebyss). Seed Bomb is much more effective than Giga Drain simply because it hits much harder due to the Atk investment.
  15. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    What else does Yache Berry accomplish that Focus Sash does not? Focus Sash allows you to not get OHKO'd by much more attacks besides Ice-type attacks and you do not have to worry about situations where really powerful Pokemon with Ice-type attacks OHKO you anyways. Either way, I would not use any item besides Leftovers on a Cacturne set with Substitute, besides maybe Dark Gem.

    My personal favorite Cacturne set is Spikes / Swords Dance / Seed Bomb / Sucker Punch @ Focus Sash. It allows Cacturne to have a choice of spiking against some teams or setting up Swords Dance against others depending on which accomplishes more against the opposing team. You might even be able to do both in one match, but usually you cannot. I actually like using Swords Dance on Spikes Cacturne more than Encore.
  16. tennisace

    tennisace
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    Wide lens is a 10% increase of the original accuracy, which means 77% accuracy for Blizzard/Thunder (less than Hydro Miss and Fire Miss and Stone Miss).
  17. Awmgnoob

    Awmgnoob

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    There's such a huge gap inbetween pokemon in NU, I'm really shocked, and slightly dissappointed Amoonguss didn't leave us.
  18. IceSpade

    IceSpade

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    Well seems that Wide Lens doesn't really increase accuracy a lot, thanks for letting me know! :) It still is better than other item choices: Leftovers are easily revealed by SR, Choice + Trick means you have to forgo one status move, and well those are the viable items that I can think of atm. Also 77% is better than 70% so it means that my Rotom -F's Blizzards hits more often than other Rotom-F. ;)
  19. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    To be honest it really isn't worth it. 77% accuracy isn't much better than 70% especially when you have to use up an item slot for it. Rotom-F could be using other items such as Leftovers, Life Orb, Choice Scarf, or Choice Specs that benefit it so much better. Leftovers and Life Orb are usually associated with SubSplit and they each are great items for it. Leftovers gives Rotom-F more survivability while Life Orb increases the stopping power of its attacks allowing it to net some key KOs. Choice Scarf and Specs both serve are great revenge killers who can then use their Choice items to abuse Trick. Tricking a wall with a Choice item can pretty much be considered them being disposed of and is extremely useful in many situations. Choice Scarf sets in particular also hold the utility is being capable of being able to outspeed +2 Timid Gorebyss, which could change the outcome of a match.

    TL;DR: Wide Len's 7% increase in accuracy isn't worth losing the utility of other items. If you really don't want to miss your Ice STAB you can always use Hidden Power Ice.
  20. DTC

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    This is going off onto a different tangent, but I think it is worthy to address.

    Is beating Alomomoonguss really such a big deal? Yes, they are two great Pokemon. However, it is not as if they are truly that hard to break. It seems as if in most NU topics we, including me, are boasting about x Pokemon and one of the big reasons in why they are so great is that they completely destroy Alomomoonguss. This is not bad reasoning; it just is not that big of a deal in my opinion.
  21. FLCL

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    Due to the lack of entry hazards in NU, Alomomooonguss is really hard to wear down without something that beats both of it. For example, even if you have Choice Band Emboar and Sawsbuck, you'll still have a hard time breaking through Alomomoonguss because they can just keep switching around and healing off any damage they take through Regenerator. What makes this even more frustrating is the tendency for at least one of them to run Protect, which eliminates prediction.

    With that being said, it's probably not a good idea to run a Pokemon that beats Alomomoonguss and does nothing else (random Poison-types come to mind). Luckily, most Alomomoonguss killers such as Substitute Bulk Up Braviary, Exeggutor, or Gardevoir are extremely useful otherwise, which makes them very useful in the metagame. Their sweeping capabilities increase dramatically when they are able to break through Alomomoonguss because many teams use that as their only defensive core.
  22. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    So to add some more discussion, has anybody else used dedicated weather teams in the current metagame? These kind of teams are very offensive and if played correctly are extremely difficult to stop due to their various abusers that can take control of matches such as Rain's Ludicolo & Gorebyss and Sun's Victreebel & Charizard. DTC and I have made a powerful Rain hyper offense team that fully incorporates some of the best users and abusers of Rain to the fullest. Our team is constantly setting up Rain without delay and abusing it to no bounds such as in the case of our multiple special Rain abusers making opponents ditch their physically bulky Pokemon in favor of their specially defensive ones only to fall victim to a surprise physical Rain abuser, Swords Dance Samurott.

    Has anybody else used dedicated weather teams? If so how have they been performing for you in the current metagame and do you think that it's a potent force that teams in the future must watch out for? What would you recommend to people who are starting out in making one of these teams and what pitfalls they should avoid?
  23. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Yep, I know exactly what you're talking about EBeast. Rain and Sun offense is so easy to win. Agent Dell's mixed Floatzel 2HKOs walls of NU, while still holding a respectable speed of 270 outside of Rain. It sucks that Sucker Punch ruins it, though, so fitting Aqua Jet would be cool. Ludicolo is a no-brainer, with 3 perfect offensive coverage to have a spare slot for Substitute to foil Sucker Punchs. Prankster Rain Dance and Encore support from Volbeat helps a ton, and is a key to Rain offense's success, imo. I think EBeast and I talked before about how Swords Dance Samurott fits well on these teams, because Swift Swimmers are often specially based, forcing the opponent to fodder physical walls to keep special tanks healthy. Once physical walls are replaced, let SD Samurott rip loose! Special Samurott in Rain is certainly frightening on its own, though.

    I haven't tried using a Sunny Day Team, but I can only imagine it working even better than Rain, since it can easily bypass Amoonguss and Alommomola that can trouble Rain teams. Victreebel and Scarf Solar Power Zard rips through RU, and I can imagine doing an even easier job down here, seeing how there are lesser answers to them. Nothings short of Carracosta is going to stop CB Emboar's Flare Blitz while sunny! Speaking of Emboar, Sunny Day teams needs to fend themselves from opposing Emboars, which may take advantage of the weather. Flash Fire mons like Morning Sun Rapidash and mixed Guts Flareon sounds like potent threats that can deal with Emboar. Giving Charizard Air Slash would help, too. Sun Teams have their own Prankster Summoner in Whimsicott, which also has Taunt to prevent Rocks from going up, which is vital for Sun teams.
  24. EonADS

    EonADS

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    I tried a similar Rain team, though my "surprise" physical sweeper was an SD Armaldo. I also made use of Swanna and its powerful Hurricane and Surf attacks.

    While I do think that HO Rain teams are powerful and potent forces in the current metagame, I have to say that you have to predict almost perfectly if you want to keep your momentum up. If you just blindly spam attacks, you will get stopped sooner or later. Plus if your opponent doesn't let you set up rain (either through Taunt or killing off your Rain setters), you're S.O.L.

    In answer to Pocket, Sun is better than Rain against the general metagame, but it carries its own pitfalls, particularly trying to deal with annoyances like Probopass and Emboar, as well as more frail sweepers. Rapidash is a god among horses, and Solar Power Charizard is, in a word, terrifying. Between Charizard and Victreebell, you can pretty much OHKO the entire metagame.

    EDIT: Also, no, they don't have Whimsicott. That's RU.
  25. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    lol Pocket, we already told you Whimsicott is RU :)

    Anyways, Rain teams are incredibly strong, just because of how spammable Water-type moves are in the tier.

    Ludicolo was voted the best Pokemon in NU, because of how amazing it is under rain. Not only can it get by most of the best rain switch ins, its also ridiculously fast and can muscle its way through the metagame.

    What really makes rain teams good is how hard they are to prepare for. There is Absol, which is great against most rain teams, but thats just one Pokemon. Even a team well prepared for rain can find themselves being weakened by the pure offensive nature of them. One of the best ways I've found to get around Absol is to run Substitute on a random sweeper, I like to use it on Mantine because it isn't expected :). Mantine is also an amazing rain sweeper in its own right, just because its so specially bulky, and can hit Amoonguss with a super effective STAB. I'm much more interested in Sun, just because I rarely see it, there have not been nearly as many great sun-based teams as there have been rain-based teams. Why is that?
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