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np: NU Stage 7 - Free Bird

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Zebraiken, Nov 23, 2012.

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  1. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken what's important
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    kacaw. thx to razzledazzle for bringing this one up! :o)

    Braviary has been freed by a vote of 1-10 - if you're interested, you can read through the results here. Despite having few drops from RU last tiering shifts, there are a couple of new shakeups on the horizon - Dream World released Simipour, Simisage, and Simisear with their respective DW abilities a couple of days ago. Mold Breaker Sawk (and Throh, but who cares about Throh) has also been released, and Sturdy SR setters everywhere are now probably cowering in fear.

    There are still a few more DW abilities yet to be released, like the fabled Contrary Serperior, Reckless Emboar, and Shadow Tag Lampent (oh also Iron Fist Gurdurr!). The next round of tier shifts are also going to be posted in a little over a month (hopefully Durant doesn't actually end up dropping to NU...), so you can certainly expect a lot of changes to the meta in the next month or so.

    Feel free to use the new and potential DW releases as a starting point; however, you don't have to post about them if you don't want. This thread is for current metagame discussion so even if you are talking about things like Contrary Serperior, no cries for insta-banning or anything, thanks. We'll get over that hump when it happens.

    POST DISCUSS ETC
  2. Ewil

    Ewil

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    SERPERIOR ! INSTABAN NOW !

    jk, i think that we have to test him first, since MAYBE he can fit well in the tier, like Amoongus, sure he probably leave us after the first tier shift that happens after his release.
    Now that i think better on him, maybe a scarf Leafstorm, boosted in the process is too powerfull even for the sturdiest special wall. I think that the better counters will be the Sap Sippers.

    Lampent probably going to leave us too for a tier of RU or even UU (Since Chandelure gonna leave the UU obv) since he's not that bad in NU and with a good trapping ability in Shadow Tag, i think that his usage skyrocket at least in RU.

    Emboar will become even more threating, not that much to go RU, but i think that we, at least, going to do a suspect test for him. A Reckless Banded STAB Flareblitz coming from a 123 ATK is a serious shit, not counting that even his coverage (Head Smash/Wild Charge) got their power increased.

    For the Simitrio i think that Simipour will raise a bit in usage thanks to a Torrent boosted Hydro Pump/Surf and his good speed.

    Has for the meta in general, i think that now is pretty balanced and maybe a bit boring since with don't have huge changes for a lot of time. Hope that the next tier shift will bring us some new toys or, who knows ? Maybe someone will discovers some good set on an underwhelming poke, never stop hoping :D
  3. superbadd

    superbadd

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    Once Serperior does get released, every team would need to pack a sap sipper or amoongus. Scarf milktank would get popular, as with a scarf and an attack boost she can OHKO both serpeior and emboar(serperior's expected partner) with earthquake. I think NU can survive once serperior ever gets released... Also, hail is pretty mediocre in the uu suspect test, so I think it'll probolby be unbanned. Due to snover being in nu as of now, we'll have hail in all three lower tiers. What's going to happen with hail once it gets unbanned?
  4. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    With Contrary Serperior out I would expect a higher usage of Scarf Dittos, Sap Sippers, and mixed bulk Amoonguss to try and deal with it. With Scarf Ditto on the field it would teams in a Second Strike situation, basically the one who unleashes their nuclear Leaf Storms first loses as Ditto can copy their boosts, be it +2 o +4) and star doing work from there. Sap Sipper such as Miltank, Zebstrika, and Sawsbuck would become more popular although Sawsbuck has to watch out for the faster LO Hidden Power Ice. The reason I mentioned mixed bulk Amoonguss is because switching a 252 HP / 252 Def Amoonguss onto LO Leaf Storm after Stealth Rock leaves it open for a OHKO with +2 Hidden Power Ice. A mixed spread would be able to avoid dying and hit it for good damage with Sludge Bomb or put it to sleep with Spore. I can actually see Gothorita being kind of a cool partner to trap potential Specially Defensive or Mixed Defensive Amoonguss and take it down. I actually wanted to try something along the lines of Serperior + Gothorita + TSpikes Garbodor. Gothorita could trap Poison-type Pokemon and Garbodor's Spikes and TSpikes would make it very easy to wear down Sap Sippers, especially Miltank who has good bulk and Milk Drink. Might be gimmicky, but I think it sounds like a cool idea to try.

    I absolutely hate quickbanning so I would of course be against it. I do not doubt that Serperior would be an extremely powerful force, but I think letting it stay its run for a little to see how our metagame handles it would be interesting to see. I can definitely see it getting banned by NU (or RU and UU possibly) in the future, but when it happens let's try to stay calm.

    EDIT: FLCL pointed out on IRC that Amoonguss could also start running Clear Smog for Serperior.
  5. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    I don't think any of the new releases will have a big impact on the metagame really. Mold Breaker sawk is cool, but it's really just for sturdy and weezing and his other ability just seems more useful. It'll still be nice to fake the moldbreaker lead though. The fact the simi's finaly have a useful ability is nice for when they fill the niche your team needs, but the pinch abilities will definately not redefine them and they will probably barely rise in usage.

    Iron Fist gurdurr can help him nab some KO's when he's started sweeping I guess but not having guts really leaves him with a plethora of new will-o-wisp counters. Not having guts will also give alomomola an easier time countering gurdurr.

    The day serp gets released, he will definately get banned pretty fast. Sure it'll be fun to play around with it for 2 weeks, but he'll define the meta so badly it'll probably get extremly boring. I'll probably be the first to want it out of the tier. Unlike Ebeast, I think he'll stay OU forever (happily enough since serp counters so many of my teams and I never manage to use it succesfully).

    EDIT: nvm faking moldbreaker, it writes sawk breaks the mold when he runs it.
  6. Axa

    Axa

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    Amoonguss seems like a decent check to Contrary Serp - a 4x resist to Grass allows him to take at least one +6 Leaf Storm, and it can Clear Smog to wipe out any boosts, as long as it doesn't let Serp setup all the way. Sap Sipper 252/252+ Miltank also takes its hits fairly well, as it's only 2HKO'd by a +6 neutral HP with SR. Cincinno will still outspeed it and deal huge amounts of damage with Tail Slap, so he's still revenge-able even with a Sub up.

    (Interestingly, I think one of the most efficient Serp items might be Miracle Seed - for starters, physical Amoonguss will now be 2HKO'd with Leaf Storm, and has to invest some EVs in SpD even with Calm to definitely avoid the 2HKO.)

    On the other hand, Reckless Emboar sounds very interesting - Flare Blitz will be even more potent than before, and Banded Wild Charge will now 2HKO Alomomola. Unfortunately he's going to be worn down extremely quickly, and I can see Samurott giving him a hayday, as he needs to predict well or fall to Aqua Jet - not even a Scarfed Wild Charge is a guaranteed OHKO.
  7. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    I also wonder how much of contrary serp's counters are killed by the goth family and eventually the undead candle family (official new name plz). The question really seems more suitable for OU though since serp certanly won't stay here long. Once those are out, I would see scarf serperior being very viable if trappers could take out his counters.
  8. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    @SJ

    I actually put "back" instead of "banned" when talking about Contrary Serp, if that clears up the misunderstanding in your first post. I don't actually think Serperior will be gone from NU due to OU usage, but rather by one of the lower tiers (NU,RU,UU) banning it in due time. About Gothi line getting rid of Serp counters, like I made in my first post I actually think that Gothorita will do a great job a this. It gets rid of Garbodor, Amoonguss, Sap Sipper Miltank (sets up on it fairly well), Muk (I can see this becoming more popular with Serp), and Wormadam-Steel (This might become used, although it's more niche than Muk). Everything else such as Sawsbuck, Skuntank, and Emboar are not counters at all and cannot switch into all of Serperior's attacks. Sawsbuck gets 2HKOed by Hidden Power Ice, and Skuntank & Emboar go down to 2 Leaf Storms. (PS: Don't use Hidden Power Psychic unless you like getting walled by the mighty SpD Unaware Swoobat ;) )

    Sorry Zeb about the theorymoning, I know you said you kind of regretted giving permission for this. I'll give my thoughts on current metagame with Mold Breaker Sawk and DW Monkeys after PS implements it and I get a chance to play it.
  9. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken what's important
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    I honestly don't mind - good discussion is good discussion, especially since this is sort of a catch-all thread. Obviously it shouldn't be the main focus here, but I don't mind people talking a little bit about things that will likely show up sometime in the future! I have a little bit I'd like to add myself, but I'll save that for later when I have more time to sit down and put my thoughts together.
  10. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Mentor

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    You can play with the recently released DW abilities on PS now.

    I am most interested in Iron Fist Gurdurr. I wonder how Iron Fist will change how people play around Gurdurr: should you status Gurdurr, or try to beat it with something else? A Guts boost Gurdurr is scary but a burned Iron Fist Gurdurr is pathetic.

    I think I am going to make a team around Iron Fist Gurdurr soon. I will miss being able to switch it into crippling status and destroying stuff like Alomomola but I am sure that extra attack boost is useful in some situations.
  11. rlyn99

    rlyn99

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    I see amoonguss usage increasing with Serperior getting Contrary, and possibly Altaria, although it gets destroyed by Hpice and +2 Dragon Pulse.

    Iron Fist Gurdurr is going to mess with peoples minds.
  12. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome

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    SubPunch Gurdurr has a godly Focus Punch with Iron Fist,Status absorption is nice and all but ,having the strongest Focus Punch in NU right off the bat is awesome.Mold Breaker sawk is awesome as that attack,fighting type,and a boosting item such as a life orb lets it beat all of the SR setters in NU.Simisage is awesom its like a mini NU Sceptile and all of sceptiles special attacking sets fit on it now(exept for my subpetaya unburden set I made)Leaf Storm/Giga Drain/Focus Blast/HP Ice LO is the best Mini Scep. Set that simisage can run.I actualy just tested these all on PS a while back today on the same team,they were cool I ran LO Braviary,Scarf Zard,and Swellow since Mold Breaker Sawk would always prevent SR from bieng set up they worked great.Ill post more later because my tablet is on red battery.
  13. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    If you want Simisage to be a mini NU Sceptile you can also try a Sub + 3 Attacks set in the same way that Sceptile is most commonly used in its tier. Substitute / Giga Drain / Focus Blast / Hidden Power Ice. I won't go into too much detail here, but if you want to see more I covered a bit of it here.

    Mold Breaker Sawk is definitely going to be cool. With Choice Band it becomes a nice anti Stealth Rock Pokemon and in general is a powerful wallbreaker. Mold Breaker also allows it to hit Haunter and Misdreavus with Earthquake which is pretty sweet that it doesn't have to rely on Stone Edge to get the stronger hit against them. It also comes in handy in situations where the opponent has a Probopass, Lairon, maybe even a Klang with Haunter in the back. You no longer have to worry about being put in a prediction game between whether Haunter will come in or not; you can just Earthquake away.

    I'm not really a big fan of SubPunch Gurdurr because since it uses Eviolite it only get to make 4 Substitutes maximum and its main STAB is not reliable unless you're great at predicting switches or are safely behind a Substitute. The addition of Substitute and Focus Punch on the set also mean you're going to be ditching Bulk Up and either Drain Punch or Mach Punch to fit everything in your moveslots. Mach Punch is valuable priority while Drain Punch provides valuable recovery. I think with Wish support from the likes of Lickilicky or Alomomola this would work a lot better, but on its own I just not a fan of it. Iron Fist without SubPunch on the otherhand is a different animal. A lot of people avoid giving Gurdurr a status so in a large portion of situations not having Guts won't be a huge deal and Iron Fist would just be beneficial. It boosts the damage of Gurdurr's Drain Punch, Mach Punch, and Ice Punch which is quite nice but it's at the expense of a status absorber. Since Gurdurr doesn't have Leftovers recovery getting statused is still not fun even with Guts, but at least there you can take advantage of it. If you do a bunch of calcs of Iron Fist Gurdurr, it doesn't actually give it any key OHKOes with Mach Punch against Pokemon such as Absol, Cinccino, or Sawsbuck however this is only in a vacuum and in a real match it could definitely come into play in many occasions. For now I think I will stick with my safe approach and keep Guts on my Gurdurr, but I'll give Iron Fist a shot sometime soon too. I use Heal Bell on Musharna constantly so it shouldn't be too bad if my Gurdurr happens to catch a burn.
  14. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome

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    Yeah I use the sub set I would have mentioned too if it wasent for my low battery I also like that set,I just like having my own nuke button in LO Leaf Storm.The Main Attraction with Iron Fist is dat superpowerfull Focus Punch and I actualy used Musharna on that team before I relised I needed a Scarfer and Musharna was the first choice to be replaced,Anyway A resisted focus punch is as strong as a neutral drain punch,and In the same sense Focus Punch is twice as strong as Drain Punch(Im also sure a +2 Drain Punch is as strong as a +0 Focus Punch but im not too sure about that).so That set is definatly worth a try and Focus Punch DENTS even RESISTES(obviously not stuff like musharna but you know what I mean like kadabra etc.).And also Braviary be jelly of its pre evos DW abillity js.
  15. FLCL

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    One thing about Contrary Serperior is the fact that it outruns most of the tier. Outside of Scarfed Pokemon, there's a small list of viable Pokemon that can be used to check Serperior. However, it is still very easy to check with a defensive Pokemon such as Amoonguss, Flareon, or Sap Sipper Miltank, so there definitely are options for teams to use against it. Pokemon like Skuntank, Emboar, Braviary, or Regice can take a hit and do massive damage, but I wouldn't advocate switching them in on Leaf Storm. I definitely think that Serperior is going to affect how people build their teams, but I don't think that it's unmanageable.
  16. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome

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    One thing that always stook out to me was Shadow Tag Lampent . Remember how annoying gothi was when she came in at the right time,and SubCMed to +6?Yeah think of Lampent as Gothitelle on steroids: Amazing dual STAB that is unresisted in NU,STAB Fire Blast obliterating evreything,Bulkier(Eviolite),Flame Charge,More SpA,no 2MSS with subcm,acid armor,A lure set in the form of WoW+CM,Deadlier After a boost,Actualy Usable SpA for a Trick Room Set,etc.
    Im not talking about a insta ban but it needs a look at when its released,because that thing WILL make NU boring and,Ebeasts future core of DW Serperior+Lampent makes me scared.I remember when I brang up Shadow Tag lampent like almost a year ago and nobody in NU cared,Shadow Tag Lampent definatly needs to be disscused.
  17. superbadd

    superbadd

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    I remember way back in dw uu, ST lampent was banned on po. That's just how good it was. I think it'll likely move up to uu or ru, so I doubt nu will have to worry about for too long. But if it gets released at the same time serperior does, they'll be killer partners.
  18. Django

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    I'm just gonna go ahead and say that the decision to ban it in DW UU was ultimately down to some very, very poor leadership, and it was never properly adapted to. Also Fire / Ghost is resisted in NU, both Zweilous and Bibarel exist. Lampent + Serperior can still be stopped by stuff like Flareon, so let's not get too panicked.
  19. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome

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    Forgot about those two and how can flareon stop the core when Lampent can switchin almost for free and SubCM its ass off,just a quick question.and DWUU was like django said usder poor management and was a very very diffrent as a metagame.
  20. Machineae

    Machineae

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    Roar.

    Django edit because not worth a full post: ^what he said. Flareon can just Roar away Lampent, likely racking up SR damage and keeping itself healthy with Wish. Also Machinae please post more than one word in the future ^_^
  21. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~

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    I was testing out some of the DW abilities (Overgrow Simisage, Mold Breaker Sawk). Mold Breaker Sawk did great for OHKOing many of the Sturdy Stealth Rockers, but the benefit of Sturdy is really important for Sawk. Since Sawk will mainly be on offensive teams, Sturdy is extremely important when you need to take a hit since you don't have walls to take them. There was even a time when I thought I had Sturdy, but I lost my Sawk because I didn't have it. Overall, I think Mold Breaker is getting a bit overhyped and that it comes down to personal preference.

    Overgrow Simisage is actually really cool. I used a "Subtile" set consisting of Substitute / Giga Drain / Focus Blast / Hidden Power Ice with a Life Orb. You just sub down to overgrow, then hit with a really hard Giga Drain and repeat. It was pretty fun and Simisage is actually decent with its high base speed and special attack. It worked really well with Spikes, but you have to watch out for priority and faster threats.
  22. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome

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    When Lampent comes out you have to have no choiced fighting and normal types and 6 anti lampent 'mons so Lampent does not come in and take advantage of your mons and set up considering nothing wants to take a +6 stab move and nobody wants be steamrolled by flame charge + calm mind lampent,and no doubt it will make the keta boring like gothitelle did,exept worse.
  23. ebeast

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    I wouldn't really say that you can't have Choiced Fighting or Normal types with DW Lampent around. It's really the same thing as when Gothitelle was in the tier; just don't play carelessly around it and you should be fine. When using Choiced Fighting- and Normal-types you do not have to lock yourself onto those kind of moves. Pokemon like Sawk, Emboar, and Braviary have a lot of options they can lock themselves into without giving Lampent the advantage. Sawk's redundant coverage with Earthquake means it can hit the same targets without worry of Lampent, Emboar still has Flare Blitz and Head Smash, and Braviary has Brave Bird and U-turn. You simply just should not do things that would open yourself up to a would be threat. If you decide to lock yourself into a move Normal or Fighting move and Lampent decides to set up on you, you have nobody to blame but yourself. Besides if you really need to take down a Pokemon you still have 5 other Pokemon to do it without having to actually use your Choiced Fighting or Normal type. If you only have a single Pokemon (in this case being the Choiced mons talked about) to take out some threats, then there is a flaw on your team right there. If you had others to take it other down, but lost them and it has opened yourself up to a Lampent you are just victim of good teambuilding.

    I don't see how Lampent would be worse than Gothitelle, (who I did not think was bad at all to begin with) they don't even work the same way. Lampent's SubCM set is in no way comparable to Gothitelle as Lampent would be using Eviolite limiting its amount of Substitutes it could make. Lampent's completely inferior bulk means that pretty much anything physical can break through it. That's another thing, if the opponent was careless enough to allow a Gothitelle to get a Sub and +6 due to Leftovers it was able to be near full health by the time Gothi went onto the offensive. Lampent on the other hand will be at minuscule health by the end of the ordeal and not that hard to revenge kill either. I do not think that SubCM will be its best set, but I'll leave that to the day when it actually comes out and I get to properly test the set I had in mind.

    Even though Zeb did allow theorymoning, it would be better if nobody made such blunt statements about things that haven't come out yet making other Pokemon unviable.
  24. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Even if Lampent does get up to +6, it is not the end of the world. It is slow and has a typing that carries a lot of weaknesses so it is easy to pick off after Lampent kills whatever it set up on. There are also a select few Pokemon that can avoid the OHKO, such as specially defensive Miltank, Mantine, Regirock, and Altaria.

    One thing that is annoying about using Shadow Tag on Lampent is you lose out on that awesome Fire-type immunity that is useful for switching in on stuff like Emboar and Rapidash. Shadow Tag will still overall be more useful than Flash Fire despite this, but this tidbit is worth noting.
  25. Wobble

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    I remember when Simipour was in RG, I used a set that eschewed Grass Knot and I was really thinking how useless Gluttony was and how much I really wished it had Torrent.

    Now it has Torrent and Simipour is an absolute wrecking machine at +2.


    Substitute/Nasty Plot/Hydro Pump/Ice Beam is the set and the reason you don't need Grass Knot is because the only thing it does is beat things like Water Absorb Lapras.

    The only common counters it has is Bulky Ludicolo and of course Mantine.

    It 2HKOs absolutely everything in the tier without Water Absorb not named Ludicolo(pesky 4x resist) with Torrent Boosted Hydro Pump and OHKOes all but a select few resists.

    It KOs nearly everything without rocks minus some really uncommon stuff like Regigigas and it KOs that with rocks. But it seriously destroys every special wall in the tier, and under Salac it isn't easily outsped, outspeeding base 80 scarfers with Modest.

    Priority as usual is an issue, so try to have a sub up if you seen an Absol or a Gurdurr...

    Setup isn't as hard as you'd imagine.

    Most good players won't switch out because of the incoming Sub + NP, but against lesser players it works...and it does setup on walls like Aloma as per anything with Substitute really.

    It's still strong even without a Nasty Plot boost...so simply subbing down to Torrent + Salac is still an effective strategy....



    Water Absorb Frillish, Lapras and Mantine wall the set, so deal with them if you see them, but quite obviously they are uncommon.

    Either Ludicolo can beat it, but it can't switch into it as it is still 2HKOd by Ice Beam.



    Speaking of Ludicolo....the main issue obviously with this mon is that it faces competition from it, and at the end of the day Ludicolo is much easier to set up....however it is not as strong, and Simipour can pull off longer sweeps as Ludicolo can be frequently stalled out. Since Simipour OHKOs things that Ludicolo 2HKOs, some of the tier's dedicated neutral special walls also can't disrupt it once it's setup(like for example, Lickilicky coming in and Wish + Protect stalling Ludicolo's rain away)


    No chance against Simipour.

    +2 252+ SpA Torrent Simipour Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 93.39 - 109.9%
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