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np: NU Stage 8 - Who Let the Dogs Out

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Zebraiken, Jan 2, 2013.

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  1. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken
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    song, thanks to dongle & raz!

    If you haven't noticed already, we've had basically the most drastic tier shift period yet: we lost Emboar, Amoonguss, Absol, Cinccino, and Snover (completely negating our supermajority Do Not Ban votes) to RU, while we get Roselia and Stoutland in return. I don't think the tiering shifts have been implemented yet on the sim but if you're eager for a battle with the changes, feel free to jump on #neverused and ask around. :P

    Anyway, there's a ton of stuff to discuss even just theorymonning what will be good and bad with the new shifts. How do you think our newcomers will perform, and will they leave a big impact on everything else? What about the oldies but goodies that never had their shot with big names like Amoonguss around (I'm thinking of Tangela especially, but there are many others too!). A lot of oft-seen Pokemon will be excellent this time around, and there's a lot of room to explore what we've got left. Any discussion about the stats in particular should go into the December stats thread, while this is primarily to discuss the roles of Pokemon and the metagame in general.

    Votes:
    Zebraiken (open)
    ban snover because i got swept by scarf wood hammer

    DTC (open)
    do not ban snover cause i love xmas... little 10 yr old boy's favorit holiday

    FLCL (open)
    tree is so kawaii~ :3 do not ban

    Django (open)
    ban hail because some of it got in my pants, and it ruins my mullet

    Raseri (open)
    do not ban snover because i use it in lc

    Annoyer (open)
    paco

    EBeast (open)
    we already have trees like torterra and maractus... free tree pls

    ium (open)
    i um not gonna ban snover

    Sweet Jesus (open)
    ban hail because people forgot that christmas is really about jesus


    and cbb who is not even on council anymore:
    CrashinBoomBang (open)
    fuck hax i quit NU


    POST DISCUSS ETC
  2. Raseri

    Raseri musharna fan
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    it was me i let the dogs out im sorry.


    Psychic spam + Trapinch is something I'm looking forward to trying out more, without Absol it is a lot easier to throw them around. There's just Cacturne always ruining my day :(. Psychics got even better this round though, for sure.
  3. FLCL

    FLCL
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    musharna can run hp ground now and 3hko skuntank even with a defensive spread while skuntank can't even 2hko back. gardevoir has a good chance to ohko skuntank with hidden power ground as well. swoobat can now safely run substitute without fear of cinccino breaking through it. exeggutor no long has to fear for its life every time cinccino, absol, or emboar comes in. yeah psychics just got a hell lot better
  4. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken
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    haha yea, cacturne is something that i'm really eager to use considering that everything that left was a thorn in its side, and that now it does really well against most defensive cores - ohkoes roselia at +2 with sucker punch! subsd with dark gem was the set i was using, and it does some cool things like luring skuntank (a 40% chance to ohko after SR is pretty awesome) and being able to check important stuff like ludicolo pretty well. of course gurdurr is always going to be a pain in the ass, but now that mushy has a few less checks...

    i also see both samurott variants doing much much better now. amoonguss is no longer the pain in the ass that it always has been, and sd samurott can freely run over a lot of teams without anything to really slow it down, bar possibly a lucky tangela.
  5. ium

    ium rowan is an ape
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    offensive grass-types will also be pretty cool this time around. exeggutor and cacturne will be cool alongside sawsbuck and simisage. all of them won't have to deal with the likes of cinccino, emboar, and amoonguss, although they will be quite bothered by tangela and roselia. however, they're easier to manage than amoonguss in my opinion.

    we talked about simisage a bit last round, but it hasn't been getting that much attention because of all the choice band mold breaker sawk and hail discussion flying around. however, i've been itching to try out simisage just because it's underrated, and it's pretty good.

    [​IMG]
    Simisage @ Life Orb
    Ability: Overgrow
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Substitute
    - Giga Drain
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    base 101 speed is fucking fantastic. some cool things include outspeeding stuff like charizard and +2 adamant carracosta. it's not particularly strong or anything, but with overgrow, it can fire off a stronger giga drain and gain a chunk of that hp back. i've used simisage during a few games so far and it's neat. it's just a shame that it takes a ton of damage from piloswine's ice shard.

    as for psychic-types, they'll be neat to try out although some of them need to watch out for skuntank. musharna will be a bit more threatening since skuntank can't get a clean 2HKO. absol was the best thing to 2HKO a musharna already setting up since everything else that could do the same are either unorthodox or choiced (like cb lickilicky explosion...). speaking of choiced, emboar was one of the offensive behemoths in the tier that could score a 2HKO on pretty much anything as well. those two leaving means that musharna can only get better. also, gardevoir's substitute + calm mind set might not be as effective anymore but it's still damn good. offensive variants of gardevoir in general put a hurt on skuntank trying to switch in as well.

    amoonguss leaving will obviously mean that tangela could start seeing more usage, and samurott could fear less when using a swords dance set. heck, even special samurott gets better because it has to predict less with the lack of amoonguss.

    overall, i like these changes. the metagame was kind of getting stale and these changes open up some stuff to try out.
  6. Worldtour

    Worldtour left: Hitmonchan right: rest of RU
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    lol I'm scared to play NU right now.

    Coincidentially just in time for Roselia to get into NU, Emboar, Amoonguss, and Hail left. Roselia looks like an excellent addition to the tier for a number of reasons. It has a great Special bulk, and the loss of Blizzspam and Emboar makes it harder to take down with Special Attackers. It is also a similar, but imo better, Spikes user than Garbodor when it comes to a defensive perspecive. With the same typing as Amoonguss (extra resistances), instant recovery in Sythesis or a Natural Cured Rest (which is further helped since there is no Hail to make Synthesis unreliable), and access to those awesome Spikes, it really helps out both offensive teams and defensive teams alike. Being one of the best checks to Special Attacking Water-types such as Samurott is also something the tier needed a replacement for (it gets 2HKOed by a Modest LO Ice Beam rarely and it does around 70% damage back to it with Giga Drain). Sadly Sleep Powder + Spikes isn't legal but other than that Roselia looks really useful.

    Stoutland is sort of really wierd, and I don't know if it is viable with Tauros and Kangaskhan running around. Even Granbull gives it some legitimate competition. However, a defensive Stoutland, as dumb as that may seem, may run into some occasional use since it has access to Roar, Thunder Wave, Yawn, and some nice bulk, but offensively it gets a load of competition from Tauros thanks to its higher speed if it decides to run Intimidate and Kangaskhan since they are almost identical but Kangaskhan is a little faster and has priority, as well as more variety because it has arms I guess.


    Other things I predict
    • Oddly enough I see Golem regaining some popularity since it lost to Cinccino so easily, could struggle against Amoonguss, and hated Hail so much. With all 3 of these obstacles out of the picture Golem has an easier time overall.
    • Cacturne probably going to rise in use becuase lets face it its really similar to Absol (I see I got ninja'd but w/e). Roselia is a jerk but even then its a legit offensive threat.
    • Garbodor is probably going to fall in usage due to being mostly outclassed by Roselia as a defensive spiker. The latter's higher bulk and addition of a Grass-typing sink it further.
    • Tangela bla bla bla
    • Musharna is going to kinda be iffy. Of course now Duosion doesn't have many reasons to be used over it, but now Skuntank is probably going to get more common, who can't be dealt with by Signal Beam like Absol and Cacturne. Hidden Power Ground means that you lose out on hitting Cacturne very hard, and now you are set-up fodder for it. It probably is going to gain usage though.
    • Choice Band Braviary is probably going to rise in usage in order to combat Grass-types like Roselia and Tangela. It also takes the place of "Strong Pokemon with Strong Dual STABs."
    • Substitute in general is most likely going to go way up in usage, and wll probably help Baton Pass teams and Ninjask accomplish more without being stopped nearly cold by the #1 Pokemon in the metagame (Mawile was there to help with Cinccino but regardless)
  7. Nyara

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    Cinccino's leave is the most important thing that happened. Absol will be missed, too, but there're other Pokémon who can acomplish it's role, too. The other shifts are not-so-important, Snover's leave will hurt a bit to the Ice-Type Pokémon on the tier, again, but they can always summon hail for it's Ice Body abusse sets, it works kinda decent, too.

    Emboar's leave will make some Grass-Type Pokémon and the Regis more popular, but the difference is still not that great, we still have Charizard for the job! (Jokes aside, Charizard and others Fire-Type Pokémon deals a excelent job, too). Roselia will be used where Amoonguss leaved behind, and Stoutland will make a sand team a good deal on the tier again, or just to give more variety on the role of bulky offensive teams.

    Cinccino is the great difference, now people can use substitutes and focus sashs with less fear of him, and now there're is not a high need to have checks for fast physical attackers, at least not so many like before. I'm seen an uprise of Articuno and Golem with him's leave, too. I think Braviary will be banned on the near future with those changes, too.

    I'm not seen a great uprise of Baton Pass teams, with Cinccino's leave and Roselia's uprise on the tier, we will have a higher increse of Roar/Whirlind users to abuse of hazard (and now, without Cinccino, a good number of those abussers doesn't have too many things to fear, now), also, Golem's uprise will still check Ninjask to acomplish it's job, I'm not seen any huge difference with Baton Pass, then.
  8. cbt

    cbt voodoo mon amour
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    musha will become so much more dangerous, as nu loses some mons that could dent musha heavily. stoutland is just another outclassed normal type, and rose should take up some of the work amoonguss did before. sawk and skunk will probably rise to even more prominence in the new nu meta, and will likely be frequent partners on offensive teams due to their great synergy.
  9. Agent Gibbs

    Agent Gibbs Rule 51
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    Yeah, I was kinda wondering about Stoutland myself. I've been trying to think of some sort of NU niche it could fill ever since Sand was banned from UU (let's be honest, it was obvious that he was going to drop), and I guess the best thing I can come up with is some sort of bulky Intimidate user. You're right about Granbull in that they're pretty similar. I guess Stoutland could run a similar support set with a lot more bulk and speed, although the loss of power and Heal Bell would still give Granbull an edge. Maybe he could run some sort of bulk attacker set? That would be kinda a tough niche to fill, though, since Kangaskhan is overall bulkier once Intimidate stops being a factor and is a lot faster. Kanga even has Scrappy too, which kills that option.

    It'll definitely be something to test in the next couple of weeks.
  10. kniteowl

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    I'm more interested in who's gonna replace Absol.

    Although I see Skuntank will be picking up the majority of Absol's slack, which pokemon will take up the second dark type pokemon choice is up for debate for me.

    It'll probably be between Cacturne and Shiftry.

    Cacturne has the stronger offense with it's base 115 attacks and special attack.

    Shiftry has more speed beating Cacturne 25 base points 55 to 88. and slightly more bulk.

    neither have a reliable physical dark stab besides sucker punch to deal with Musharna. sure there's payback but Musharna is way too slow for them.
  11. FLCL

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    im pretty sure nothing in the tier can murder psychic-types and take care of steel or rock types like absol did. the closest you can get is nasty plot shiftry with focus blast and dark pulse, which doesn't look bad at all on paper. bug and ghost types such as pinsir or golurk will also take on the role of breaking through musharna on a lot more teams now than before.
  12. Nyara

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    I bet more for Shiftry, actually. Cacturne have some uses, too, but Shiftry is more flexible, thus, making him viable for more teams.
  13. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken
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    Nothing will be able to directly fill the gap of any of these Pokemon. You shouldn't be looking for other things to fit into the places of these Pokemon on your team; replacing Absol with Shiftry isn't going to work simply because they are violently different, just the same as how trying to replace Emboar with Combusken won't work either. Don't focus on replacing these because such a feat is next to impossible - try instead to look for new niches or Pokemon that will have a lot of success in the new metagame.
  14. Nyara

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    ^ I'm just talking about the role of Anti-Psychic abussers, of course Absol had others uses apart from it, and of course, Shiftry and others can't fill all those uses, but they can offer different things in exchange while they can still check Psychic, too.

    Anyway, it is not a thing of "oh noes, they leaved me without one of the Pokémon of my team! I need to fill the gap!" because they were unique, and you'll most probably needed to make more than just a simple fill to make up for it. I din't used any of them, anyway, so, it's not a trouble for me (I never use top-used Pokémon because they tend to get a ban soon or later), but some people have problems to check certain Pokémon, thus, needed of a new Dark-Type Pokémon to use on their teams, or just like Zebraiken told, just use Pokémon that will have success on the new metagame.
  15. Axa

    Axa

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    Arbok's gonna be pretty cool now that Cincinno and Absol are gone. Golurk still walls it well but it's a lot better than before, especially since it's a TSPikes absorber and laughs at Roselia.
  16. Tyrano

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    Now with Roselia and without stallbreakers like Emboar, Cinccino or Absol, I can see more stall coming. Roselia, Alomomola, Tangela, Frilish, Regice, Lickylicky, Garbodor, Bastiodon... anyone can make a great team with 6 of them and even defeat the almighty Musharma taunting or phazing it.

    I also think another fire type will get the place of Emboar, and it may be Rapidash, since it's fast and it have flare blitz along some other physichal atacks (and even recovery). But taking the place of Absol seems a lot more dificult. Skuntank is a nice trapper, but it relies on pursuit or sucker punch to hit Musharma which can be tricky sometimes. The same happens with Cacturne, but him at least can break some stall cores with seed bomb or drain punch. Another option could be Mightyena but I actually don't see him coming.

    And finally we had Musharna back now it doesn't have to fear hail nor Absol. I think it will be the most useful pokemon in the tier. It can counter Sawk, and without dark pokes or taunters, it can boost to infinity and destroy the whole rival team easily. I think it could be the next suspect in the tier, not for abusing, but for centralizing since it makes you to have something to stop it (something very concrete) or you are lost.
  17. Sidfrid

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    [​IMG]Major Changes!

    Musha fear almost nothing now, so i changed my old conservative Musharna playstyles to a middle way between Hyperoffensive and Bulky Offensive. I always found that Musharna have to pick a role to fit for a moveset, since she can range from dedicated supporter to choice specs sets.

    Now i will try Moonlight + 3 attacks and a Life Orb attached, since only skuntank left in the Overused deparment of NU, people need to find other way to pick on Musha. Pinsir is the number one option, since X-Scissors hurt a lot and if manage to grab the KO and the moxie boost regaining the momentun would be hard. But there always patners like the revange killer Rotom-S or the underrated Rapidash.

    I already talked about Rapidash, and now without hail the Morning Sun +3 attacks and a life orb (yep same as musha but now is a physical attacker) is becoming more easy to use.

    i really expect this np stage to be less centralized around a few pokemons. And I will never miss Cinccino, he stinks hard...
  18. kniteowl

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    I think people should think twice about using toxic spikes in the meta game, even though Amoonguss has left the tier, I believe Skuntank may take it place in terms of toxic spike absorber. Mostly because odds are Musharna is likely to be centralizing the game which will force more players to use Skuntank as a counter/check. Sure I guess you could use other dark types but that my prediction. ( I could be wrong though lol)
  19. The Quasar

    The Quasar

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    My cent

    My cent (perhaps less, I'm a novice)...

    Five pokemon up to RU and two pokemon down to NU are surely some changes in metagame NU.
    The first things I think Roselia is not at all the Amoonguss' substitute (no regenerator ability, no spore,the only 100% accurate sleep inducing move in the game).
    Also Life Orb Attacker Cinccino has always given me a lot of problems
    when I had to deal with. Both pokemon are always in team you could found until a few days ago, so I think we will no longer need to be too "afraid" of them.
  20. skylight

    skylight for the first time in forever,,,
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    Agreed, plus there's going to maybe be opposing Roselia (for people to try it out idk though I don't think it'll be used that much more than Garbodor already is for spiking anyways)... and Vileplume for those who don't want to use Tangela as the new Amoonguss. ;(
  21. kniteowl

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    ^ I guess you could use Shadow Tag Gothorita to trap opposing Roselia, Garbodor & Vileplume. Although skuntank is still around to ruin your day and the only trappers I can think of are focus sash trapinch and digett lol.. and not many players are gutsy enough to use those lol.
  22. sickweare

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    I agree with TheQuasar. Roselia has far less merit than Amoonguss who had Spore and regenrator. Rosie does have natural cure which can be useful, although it causes lots of switches. Nothing will be able to fill Amoonguss's void in this meta, but at least now we have less to worry about in the walling department.

    I'd also bring up Arbok, like someone else did above. Arbok is a great option for any team thanks to Intimidate and Coil. It has access to great coverage with EQ and sucker punch. That being said, this meta is going to want to revolve around Mushy who will not hesitate to bring Arbok down quickly. I think Arbok should get more usage, though, because it's #1 wall is gone. (seriously guys it's in PU right now which is a disgrace even if it's not a real tier ;; )

    Also, before you agree to Roselia taking Guss's place, take a moment and consider the other bulky grass types, namely Tangela and Serperior. Tangela has superior physical bulk, but Serperior has better defenses and speed. These two could honestly use some love anyway, so consider them. I've used Serperior to a ton of success lately as it totally shuts down the coming popularity of Jumpluff (why is jumpluff a thing)
  23. FLCL

    FLCL
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    roselia's biggest selling point is spikes; every team using roselia should be using it for spikes. there is no other spiker that can perform roselia's role, which is to tank special attacks and set up on the opponent. you shouldn't be using it as a dedicated special wall or even a defensive grass-type, since it's stats and typing do not fit that category. grass/poison is much more suited to walling on the physical side, and roselia is a poor choice for that.

    tl;dr: there's no reason to compare amoonguss and roselia because they perform different roles on a team
  24. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    I agree with FLCL that Roselia's role cannot be compared to Amoonguss just because they have the same typing. Roselia has Spikes, better Speed, and better Special Attack at the trade off for a lot of bulk and Regenerator. The difference in bulk between Amoonguss and Roselia regardless of EV spread is bigger than most people think, and this is not even including Regenerator. I personally really dislike Roselia as a defensive Pokemon and would only use it as an offense Spiker.

    Anyways, Roselia being in the tier does not mean that Garbodor usage will just disappear. Garbodor still has considerably better physical bulk and makes a much better check to Sawk and Gurdurr than Roselia ever could. Like I've said on the Dec 2012 stats, I can see Roselia being more of an offensive Spiker and in a sense a stallbreaker with its STABs and Spikes breaking defensive cores apart such as Alomomola + Tangela. Garbodor's Aftermath is still amazing when you finish setting up Spikes and you need some last ditch damage on the opponent. Due to experimenting with Roselia I would say that Garbodor usage will decrease a bit this month, but eventually it will even itself back up.

    Psychic-type Pokemon losing checks is going to increase the popularity of Skuntank even further and with the loss of Absol some Musharna might start using Hidden Power Ground. At the same time Cacturne lost strong checks in Emboar and Amoonguss and could see a rise in popularity and take advantage of Musharna switching over to Hidden Power Ground. I would rather be safe than sorry and stick with Signal Beam on Musharna as I would rather prevent a dangerous boosting threat from coming in than Skuntank, who is generally beaten by the common users of Stealth Rock. (Revenge of Golem pls)

    All this pressure on Skuntank means that teams revolving around Psychic and Ghost spam could be very effective with all the Psychic/Ghost member having a way of beating Skuntank one on one. (Think Colbur Berry Golurk, Focus Sash Magic Guard Kadabra, and Destiny Bond Haunter/Gardevoir) With Skunk out of the way these teams could wreck some havoc with their main check out of the way. Trapinch + Psychic spam was my idea, (or was it Raseri's? I'm not really sure) but I think a team of lures like I mentioned above would be more effective.
    Hollywood likes this.
  25. FLCL

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    i've been using psychic spam even before absol left, since teams usually don't carry more than one dark-type. destiny bond haunter or gardevoir in conjunction with duosion or musharna is extremely devastating to all forms of teams, especially balance and stall since they can't hit the latter two hard enough. you could even go on the offensive and run cores such as haunter plus exeggutor if setting up is not your thing. there are so many versatile psychic-types in the tier that all perform different roles, which makes it much harder to stop than flying or normal spamming. you also have to worry a lot less about sawk—arguably the biggest threat in the tier right now—from running over your team since most psychic-types can take it on very well.
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