1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

np: NU Stage 8 - Who Let the Dogs Out

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Zebraiken, Jan 2, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. DragonBorn

    DragonBorn

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    95
    but the physicaly offensive Banette gives you a suprise factor which can score you the kill on Musharna because if the see it they'll think its the suicide lead which is the only set on Smogon so they wont expect it.
  2. skylight

    skylight the cold never bothered me anyway
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 14, 2011
    Messages:
    1,498
    @ ium: weird, sim calc must be off

    Anyway, in response to DragonBorn: But that's the thing if it's not leading then the logical assumption would be that it's using a different set and isn't going to perform the suicide lead duty. Even so, if Banette is switching in and Mushy CMs on the switch, Banette will die immediately (not killing Mushy) if SR is up (at least on the sim calc, but it can probably OHKO it after SR damage on another calc) meaning Banette still isn't countering it and is rather getting killed.

    Also Banette's only chance of overcoming it is if Mushy uses Moonlight on the turn Banette is switching in, or uses Signal Beam against a dark/psychic type, in which case you'd need to have those specific types of mons in order to confuse the Musharna user as to what you're doing, meaning that only 2/4 move options are really somewhat "safe" for Banette and still isn't countering it.
  3. DragonBorn

    DragonBorn

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    95
    Well theres nothing else i can think of that could fill the spot of the dark type absol to take on musharna. Cacturne will take 4x damamge from signal beam and its best weapon is Sucker Punch meaning if you predict wrong they could set up calm mind boost, Mightenyena doesnt have enogh initial power to realy get through it, Zweilous could probably get through it it has the power, but its move have shaky accuracy because of hustle.
  4. Fizz

    Fizz

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    964
    If you really want a good counter, use Specially Defensive Bulk Up Scraggy. Works like a charm, as it's immune to Psychic and takes very little from even a boosted Signal Beam, as well as the rare HP ground. Musharna occasionally carries Thunder Wave, which doesn't matter to Scraggy at all (in addition to Shed Skin eliminating paralysis). I don't know which is slower, but it may be necessary to run Crunch rather than Payback.

    [​IMG]
    Scraggy@Eviolite
    Ability: Shed Skin
    EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 SpD
    Careful Nature
    -Bulk Up
    -Drain Punch
    -Crunch
    -Rest
  5. DragonBorn

    DragonBorn

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    95
    can you put up some calculations for that? id love to see them and i can check them right now
  6. Fizz

    Fizz

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    964
    Sure. Keep in mind that many CM Musharna won't carry signal beam, opting instead for Heal Bell, in which case it can do nothing to Scraggy. Scraggy does indeed outspeed, and will have to opt for Crunch.

    0SpAtk Musharna (Neutral) Signal Beam vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Scraggy (+SpDef): 17% - 20% (52 - 62 HP). Guaranteed 6HKO.
    0SpAtk +1 Musharna (Neutral) Signal Beam vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Scraggy (+SpDef): 25% - 30% (78 - 92 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    If Scraggy comes in while Musharna uses CM (or anything else), Scraggy can boost up two or three times, Resting if necessary (keep in mind Shed Skin has a 30% chance of removing sleep each turn), and then 2HKO Musharna.

    0Atk +1 Scraggy (Neutral) Crunch vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Musharna (+Def): 37% - 44% (164 - 194 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    0Atk +2 Scraggy (Neutral) Crunch vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Musharna (+Def): 50% - 59% (218 - 258 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    This doesn't take Leftovers or Stealth Rock into account. But basically, if you let Musharna get enough boosts to take out Scraggy, you're not using Scraggy right.

    Edit: Oops. That doesn't even take into account Eviolite. Scraggy wins.
  7. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
    is a Community Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,659
    I use Liepard to check or outright counter Musharna. Should Musharna be using any move but Thunder Wave and Signal Beam (this applies to Trick Room as well), Liepard can Encore the move and force it out, getting a free sub and wreaking havoc. If Musharna is the last pokemon standing, killing any pokemon with Psychic means game over, but it will have to boost to have its coverage move (if it has one) do any real damage. If Liepard comes in on its CM it's still gg. Musharna is put in a pretty tight spot against Liepard, which may explain its high usage according to January 2013's stats.
  8. DragonBorn

    DragonBorn

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    95
    Well its obvious scraggly has gone and taken the dark spot missing sorry banette looks like ur not going to rise this time. But I do love.the scraggly idea
    Hollywood likes this.
  9. Wobble

    Wobble

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2012
    Messages:
    73
    Encore on Liepard is brutal.

    Every setup sweeper in the tier has to worry about Liepard switching into their setup mon and forcing them out.

    I think it should be used more than T-Wave or at least Swagger.
  10. skylight

    skylight the cold never bothered me anyway
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 14, 2011
    Messages:
    1,498
    It doesn't need to be used more than Swagger given it can fit on the same set easily and still be terribly annoying. T-Wave, yeah I agree Encore is way better but Swagger helps make it annoying. If you're only just Encoring a mon and not Swaggering them then it's kind of pointless as you gain no real advantage from the switch.
  11. cbt

    cbt doom
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,404
    While Encore may be useful at stopping setup sweepers or support mons in their tracks, Liepard just doesn't have the room for it. Since Swagger is primarily what makes it the effective annoyance it is, it shouldn't be dropped in favor of Encore. If added, it should be over twave, but even then, Twave is more useful imo.
  12. DragonBorn

    DragonBorn

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    95
    alright so ive been looking at slowpoke thinking he might be a good physcial wall in Nu im going to put up some calcs and ask your opinions on it.(it says custom because it wont let me use slowpoke in the Honkalculator against Nu in all of the different calculators so sorry if that confuses you)

    252 Atk Choice Band Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 178-210 (46.35 - 54.68%) -- 58.98% chance to 2HKO(Choice Band Braviary)
    0 Atk Scraggy Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 86-104 (22.39 - 27.08%) -- possible 4HKO(Nu Bulk Up Scraggy)
    252+ Atk Serperior Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 140-168 (36.45 - 43.75%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(Coil Sweeper Serperior)
    252 Atk Life Orb Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 149-177 (38.8 - 46.09%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(Dragon Dance Fraxure)
    252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 236-278 (61.45 - 72.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Choice Band Golurk)

    so as you can see he can take a hit or two and in the case of golurk scout and then switch out to heal some damage to and bring in something that resist is moves. Not to mention if he can get a burn with scald that would render them almost useless although scald will probably do about as much a wartortles scald

    if theres others that would be great to check on i would love to do some more calcs but those are the only ones i can think of at the moment
  13. cbt

    cbt doom
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,404
    Despite being somewhat bulky, the reason slowpoke isnt heavily used is it cant do much damage in return, and base 65 defense in conjunction with low speed isnt doing it any favors. A fast Taunt will make it a liability, making more of a reason not to use it.
  14. skylight

    skylight the cold never bothered me anyway
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 14, 2011
    Messages:
    1,498
    There's really better stuff that can fit that. Tangela has much higher defense, also has useful moves such as Knock Off, also has regenerator, can use eviolite, has better everything overall and can survive everything other than Braviary easily and just Giga Drain, sleep it or seed it.

    To most of those Slowpoke can't always switch without chances of it dying on the next turn whereas Tangela and Alomomola easily can.

    Even so for the Braviary part,
    252 Atk Choice Band Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 235-277 (44 - 51.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Meaning Alomomola can survive, Protect, Wish in the extra turn, Protect, throw on Toxic and stall it as well as let it passively kill itself with Brave Bird, whereas Slowpoke doesn't protect and has to rely on constantly Slacking Off with very little chance to Toxic stall/wear it down as it could potentially 2HKO it.
  15. DragonBorn

    DragonBorn

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    95
    It was just a thought and it does have regenerator to heal of the damage so i can survive the bravebird then switch out to a flying resist like golem.

    i think i could be a good partner with roselia
  16. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist PU! We don't stink though!
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,207
    The problem with Slowpoke is that it lack Leftovers. Without it, you rely solely on Regenerator and Slack Off in order to recover, which means that you cannot outstall CB Braviary and Golurk without letting another one of your Pokes take a hit. Slowpoke's Scald is only equal to Alomomola's, while Alomomola's Waterfall also does more (not that that matters too often). Also, Slowpoke does very little while its in play; at least Alomomola can pass Wishes and Toxic/Protect stall for a while. The best Slowpoke can do is inflict a huge variety of status (not bad, but not great enough).
  17. DragonBorn

    DragonBorn

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    95
    True..............................................................oh well do yall think a resttalk set with calm mind could work.

    Slowpoke@Eviolite
    Trait:Regenerator
    Nature:bold
    Ev:252 hp/ 252 def
    -Rest
    -Sleep Talk
    -Scald
    -Calm Mind

    Im pretty sure he can burn stall braviary along with Brave Bird Recoil lol
  18. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
    is a Community Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,659
    Alomomola and Relicanth get Calm Mind too and can hold leftovers while still retaining bulk. Guess why they don't use CM regardless?
  19. kniteowl

    kniteowl

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2010
    Messages:
    342
    Slowpoke has a niche as a trick room user, although it prefers supporting a trick room team

    Slowpoke@Eviolite
    Trait:Regenerator
    Nature: Brave
    EVs 252 HP, 252 Attack, 4 Def
    - Trick Room
    - Belly Drum
    - Aqua Tail
    - Return / Zen Headbutt/ Slack off

    Come into a physical attack and tank it then set up trick room. if you have less then 50% health, switch out and regenerate, if you have more then 50% health then use belly drum to either suicide yourself so a trick room sweeper can come in and sweep (assuming your opponent stays in and attacks you). If they don't attack you then Slowpoke can sweep itself being faster in trick room and with a +6 attack stat of 753, Aqua tail is mandatory stab, Return gives you good coverage as you're only walled by frillish while Zen headbutt gives you a second stab and possibility to flinch hax, slack off gives slowpoke more of a defensive role while a mono-water Stab does a adequate job.
  20. DragonBorn

    DragonBorn

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    95
    thats a very intresting set kniteowl when i get my hands on a female slowpoke with regenerator ima gonna try that although i would use waterfall over aqua tail because of the nifty flinch rate and perfect accuracy event though it has 10 less basspower
  21. kniteowl

    kniteowl

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2010
    Messages:
    342
    Slowpoke can't learn waterfall sadly, or else the set I made above would've had waterfall instead of Aqua tail
  22. DragonBorn

    DragonBorn

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    95
    realy it cant? wow just checked and he cant thats kinda wierd

    Someone posted an idea about a defensive staravia set and i think i have a ok one.

    Staravia@Eviolite
    Trait:Intemidate
    Nature:Impish
    Ev:252 hp/252 def/4 spDef
    -Roost
    -Protect
    -Toxic
    -Return/Whirlwind/Endeaver/U-turn

    the last move is up to preference Return is just to nock some damage around and make sure you not complete taunt bait. Whirlind can be used to shuffle if you choose to but losses its advantage after that pokemon leaves because Intemidate wont activate again. Endeaver can be used to bring a pokemon to really low health if your really low on hp and are just a sitting duck atm and u-turn can be used if you want to just toxic-protect-then switch out to somethign else.

    Here are some damage calcs that i think i good.

    -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Gigalith Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 85.98 - 101.27%
    -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Armaldo Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom):
    80.89 - 95.54%
    252 SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite (custom): 79.93 -94.26%
    -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Sudowoodo Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 69.42 - 82.16%
    252 Atk Regirock Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 63.05 - 74.52%
    -1 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 57 - 67.83%
    -1 252 Atk Choice Band Flash Fire Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 56.68 - 66.87%
    -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Piloswine Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 53.5 - 64.96%
    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 54.77 - 64.64%
    -1 252+ Atk Armaldo Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 53.5 - 63.69%
    -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 54.14 - 63.69%
    +1 0 Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite (custom): 53.5 - 63.05%

    it can take hits well but it wil still lose to alot of things switching in. All though being able to survive ,stab ,choice band, adamant, and 252 atk evs rock type attacks comming from monstrous attacks like gigaliths is pretty respectable
  23. ZandgaiaX

    ZandgaiaX

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2009
    Messages:
    564
    I'm afraid I have to open up discussion of a very broken pokémon if played right.

    Riolu with Prankster

    Riolu@Focus Sash
    Prankster, Timed
    252 HP/252 Speed/ Whatever
    -Roar
    -Copycat
    -Toxic/Drainpunch
    -Protect

    Basically this riolu set boils down to one thing: use roar when you have an opening, either because something just fainted on your side or thanks to a succesful double switch. And watch the fireworks as you continue to spam copycat, with prankster. This Riolu produces tears and rage all over the NU-players. Toxic for the last pokémon that will remain either by sheer luck (if it wasn't shuffled enough) and protect for opposing ditto's (trust me, with proper thinking it is possible to even beat ditto with this set), as well as some below-average scouting.

    Support is not anything 'really' special: Stealth Rock, maybe Spikes and Rapid Spin. That's it. Easily provided with a golem lead and a cacturn in your team. Or an Armaldo, who also provides rapid spin, maybe a spinblocker, but seriously: what can spin in NU?. They don't even need to do a whole lot, just using the hazard is enough to watch the fireworks.

    A sort of defensive set is possible with eviolite and a different EV spread, but I feel that Focus Sash is a slightly more reliable way of doing things.

    For proof, here is the team I currently use to 'test' this set, it also uses a above-average useful Voltturn-combo of Fearow and Raichu, who can also wear down an opponent rather well, whilst at the same time creating more openings.

    Riolu@Focus Sash
    Prankster, Timed
    252 HP/252 Speed/ Whatever
    -Roar
    -Copycat
    -Toxic/Drainpunch
    -Protect

    Fearow@Choice Scarf
    Sniper, Adamant
    6 HP/252 Atk/252 Speed
    -Drill Peck
    -Drill Run
    -Return
    -U-turn

    Raichu@Choice Scarf
    Lightingrod, Modest
    6 HP/252 Sp. Atk/252 Speed
    -Thunderbolt
    -Hidden Power Ice
    -Focus Blast/Focus Punch
    -Volt Switch

    Golem@Lefties
    Sturdy, Adamant
    252 HP/252 Atk/ 6 SpD
    -Earthquake
    -Rock Blast/Stone Edge
    -Stealth Rock
    -Sucker Punch

    Golurk@Lefties
    Iron Fist, Adamant
    178 HP/168 Atk/164 Speed
    -Earthquake
    -Stone Edge/Shadow Punch
    -Shadow Punch/Substitute
    -Toxic/Icepunch/Focus Punch

    Cacturne@Lefties
    Water Absorb, Hasty/Timed
    6 Atk/252 Sp. Atk/252 Speed
    -Giga Drain
    -Dark Pulse
    -Sucker Punch/Nasty Plot
    -Spikes

    Obviously this team has flaws, no real 'walls', no real direct synergy (except for Cacturne + Golem and Fearow + Raichu), four weak to ice, and no resist to said ice. Overreliance on Riolu and the two scarfers, overreliance to hazards (then again, most teams are). Weak to rapid spinners if they manage to get a single one off, most notable Rapid Spinner being Wartortle, who other than golurk (whose fears a scald) or cacturne (where it manages to get a rapid spin off) is the biggest 'threat'.

    However, imagine this Riolu with pokémon that fully compliment it's set: Armaldo, Mr. Mime (Shut up, healing wish is so cool), Munshura, Sawk. Yeah, it would be a true terror if the 'general' playing field actually discovers this set.

    replay where I was obviously losing, I wasn't even trying that hard to win until I got rioulu in =S

    http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-nu9395461

    replay against a standard team who actually did try something to stop it, but wasn't capable to in the end, why? Luck mostly.

    http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-nu9396836
  24. Nyara

    Nyara

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    287
    Too bad priority users are excesive common from the Generation III, otherwise Riolu can autowin games without problem, but, yeah, don't carry priority is a bad idea for any team, as you can even autowin a game with just Endeavor + Flail/Reversal + Pinch Berry.
  25. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
    is a Community Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,659
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3476974
    I can easily say Focus Sash Riolu is inferior to Eviolite Riolu, the main reason being Eviolite Riolu can continue to phaze against priority moves, while Focus Sash Riolu's pretty much done. There's also the problem with hazards, while you're trying to set them up yourself, one layer is all the opponent needs to break the Sash. Nice attempt, but there are opponents Riolu can start the Roar chain against without resorting to Sash, mainly Piloswine and unboosted Gurdurr.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)