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Personally I'd like to see this thing stick around for awhile, cause I don't think it's as broken as everyone thinks. Sure, its a heck of a pokemon, but it is quite possible to play around it.
HO, defensive, and balanced all have tools to do so. these have been mentioned in the posts above me, so I won't elaborate too much. It's boosting abilities are luck-based, it can't regenerate health well, especially since it doesn't pack leftovers, and it cant run every coverage move at once. Not to say it isn't very, very dangerous against people who take it lightly, but it simply isn't quite good enough to be broken IMO. Plus, has anyone thought of Hydregion as a check? he has amazing coverage, and a good deal of utility outside of killing megagross. (yeah, i know megagross could obliterate him with hammer arm)
With stealth rock or just a little prior damage, many things viable in OU can suddenly check MegaGross when they couldn't before. MegaGross is a pokemon that gets forced out often, mainly by Scarf Land-T which is omnipresent. Taking advantage of these switches, MegaGross becomes exponentially non-threatening.
Bisharp
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 283-338 (94 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Gengar
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 312-369 (103.6 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Scarf Heatran
252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 428-506 (142.1 - 168.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Defensive Hippowdon
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 152-180 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- 96.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 186-222 (61.7 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Jolly Scarf Lando-T
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 278-330 (92.3 - 109.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Mega Manectric
252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 268-316 (89 - 104.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Mega Aggron
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 76-91 (22 - 26.4%) -- 15.6% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Mega Aggron Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 150-178 (49.8 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Swords Dance Talonflame
252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 291-346 (96.6 - 114.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Defensive Zapdos
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 163-193 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
68 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 162-192 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Zapdos can attack the first turn, Roost the second turn, then switch out if MegaGross hides behind its friends.
Edit:I forgot Meta is faster. Forget I said that part! Mew does that job better anyways.
First off I'm sorry about my english vocabulary and grammar, I am not from England or any other country speaks english as their first language.
OK so here is how it goes, I will give you some feedback on the Pro's and Con's of running Mega Metagross, you may or may not agree with me but i still beg you to bear with me.
But first, lets sum up what metagross exactly gives you when you use/face it.
A short sumarization of Mega Metagross
Metagross is a physical monster which has extreme physical bulk and above avarage special bulk, it also brings a ton of power to the table and has a good speed stat. It also has the option to go mixed or choose to be a set-up sweeper. Its a very hard to switch into pokemon that has as much checks as it has moves that it can possibly run.(This is a joke)
What are the Pro's and Con's of Mega Metagross
Pro's
-It has amazing bulk with 80 HP, 150 defence and 110 special defence. -It already has a good attack stat of 145 and a passable special attack stat of 105 to go with its bulk, to top that off it also has the ability Tough Claws, this boosts it attack t rediculous levels
-It has a good speed tier of 110 that allows it to outrun common threats like Keldeo.
-It has an wide movepool that allows it to run a multitute of sets, it can run a set-up sweeper set with rock polish or hone claws, it has a variation of coverage moves and Bullet Punch for potential priority, to top it off it gets Grass Knot, this is a special move move that, get this, gets boosted by tough claws, this disallows Slowbro Mega and Starmie to counter it.
-Its typing, this typing is decent defensively and offensively, one notable feature is that steel type's wall fairy type's, which are a huge problem in the current meta
-There are virtually no pokemon that can safely trap it, it takes out both Bisharp and scarfed Tyranitar, it takes on Gothitelle and Magnezone also cant trap it, the only thing magnezone can do to it however is trapping it so it can safely use Volt Switch to wear it down
-resists the move Stealth Rock, this can make it very hard to wear down.
-It gets the ability Clear Body before Mega evolving, this makes it so that Landorus Therian can't try to take a hit for the team on the turn it Mega evolves.
-Thanks to the fact that it resists both of the Lati@s' STABs and the fact that it gets the move Pursuit, it can easily get rid of them for the rest of the team. Con's
-Its speed before Mega evolving is a whopping.... 70, this is not that fast and hinders it tremendously, luckily enough it has the bulk to take most hits so it can still get off the Mega evolution.
-Even though it has a wide movepool, the amount of moves that are actually run are quite shallow, this can make it quite predictable.(This can also be see as a Pro as it allows less common sets to suprise the opponent)
-It does not have any recovery what so ever, this means that it cant run a defensive set effectively.
-Takes up a Mega slot, though this is not a huge problem as it is well worth the Mega slot.
So out of this what can we conclude, its a Pokemon that provides us with a Low risk High reward scenario, it also affects the metagame to such an extend that it nearly made running Fairy type pokemon un-viable, this allows sableye to run rampant and also affects venusaur and amoonguss as these two pokemon now have less pokemon they can wall, this pokemon also punishes not being prepared properly for it too hard, allowing it to sweep too easily. Because of this reason i think that it SHOULD BE BANNED, but hey, this is just an oppinion that you can agree or disagree with, and happily encourage you to share your thoughts with me.(as long as they are reasonable).
Some Calculations to show you what i was talking about before.
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 249-294 (82.7 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 223-264 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 257-304 (85.3 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 188-224 (62.4 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 240-284 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 180-214 (55.5 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 372-440 (94.4 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 188-222 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Metagross is unhealthy and broken in the current metagame.
It is blessed with great defense and special defense allowing it to take multiple hits when it comes in, great speed which allows it to outspeed top threats like keldeo, gengar and hp fire latios. The most threatening thing about metagross is its attack, super cool ability and a huge movepool. With this huge movepool, its checks/counters have a hard time dealing with it like thunder punch for skarmory, hammer arm for ferrothorn, grass knot for hippowdon, quagsire, suicune, ice punch for gliscor. Even if there are counters like scizor, it can switch out and go into something that checks scizor.
Metagross threatens every playstyle in OU due to all these things it has. The meta would be so much better if this thing got banned.
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 258-304 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 265-315 (88 - 104.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 270-318 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 201-237 (66.7 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Deoxys-D: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kind of seems to me that it's an incredibly recursive loops starting to form. Getting rid of one thing causes another to become overpowered relatively. Maybe the problem isn't necessarily in the individual strength of the pokemon itself, but OU as a whole is getting, well, "stronger"? Mega Metagross can get either OHKOd or takes a severe amount of damage from plenty of things that have been banned recently. Deo D can force a 3HKO. Mega Metagross can't switch in on three of the above.
Now I'm not saying that it'd all be fine and dandy to reinstate Mawile, Greninja, Aegishlash and Kangaskhan. Obviously not. But the trend of suspects and banning seems to be hitting certain mons who, while not Uber material, are very good in OU and form sort of a balance in and of themselves. Like I said, a recursive loop that is feeding itself over and over almost.
All righty, bout time I spoke on behalf of this monster.
I know 99% of this has been stated time and time again, but whatever, it's coming from me.
Now, we all knew this was coming. That thread we opened up about a week and a half ago really allowed us to air out some things that needed to be said. For the most part, at the top of everyone's list, was this monster.
This thing right here. . . Is just, ridiculous. It has immense bulk, immense power, immense speed, and an awesome typing. If you can name me one practical thing this doesn't have, you will get a cookie. With the coverage it has access to, nothing is safe. With, from what I've seen, the most popular set of Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt, Hammer Arm, Grass knot, nothing is able to come in without taking a pretty big chunk of damage, damage that in many cases leads to 2HKOs.
0- SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 244-288 (58 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(whoever said MegaGross needed to run a - def/spdef nature if they run Grass Knot is wrong)
Now, looking at it strictly in power, it can be misconceived as balanced. It's powerful as shit, it's got amazing coverage, much like a few other Pokemon in the current OU tier. However, we have yet to include it's obnoxious bulk. It has insane bulk, almost on par with some of the more bulky Pokemon in OU. Living attacks from its checks, and easily either Killing or dealing a massive amount of damage to this "check". What is the cherry on the top of this sundae is that amazing speed tier that it has the privilege of obtaining through mega evolution. So let's look at it this way, nothing can switch in on it reliably outside of a couple things that, are a clear indication of centralization, so let's not use those two as means to keep this thing in OU, and it has the chance to out do its few and far between checks and possibly kill it off in return.
TLDR; Nothing is safe from this monster outside of a couple Pokemon depending on its moveset (something that is not okay, ask Greninja) which you should not need to carry to reliably stop this thing. Its speed is amazing, its power is even better, and its bulk pushes it several levels above its fellow OU members. So, as of right now, I'm leaning towards Ban.
EDIT:
On a bit of an ironic note.
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blaziken in Rain: 1080-1272 (357.6 - 421.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Because Broken beats broken is a good argument.
Plenty of arguments have already been said. I'll just add my personal feelings about battling and team-building.
I frequently battle on the high ladder, and I have never been constrained by Mega Metagross. The current metagame is quite "playable." Even if some Pokemon are more powerful than others, we know all the sets--we know how to counter them. Regarding said counters, I read that Gross has no counters in offense. Firstly, there are no safe counters in offense, only checks. On the other hand, Metagross is predictable. One can predict a Meteor Mash/Zen Headbutt, go to Bisharp and put pressure on Gross. Besides, Metagross is walled by any balanced/stall team with a Slowbro, Skarmory, etc.
"Mega-Metagross is bulky, powerful, fast..." --> it's a mega. That's why only one of these monsters is allowed per team. It's also why you have to consider it during team-building.
Comparing to other suspects, Metagross does not cause as many problems as Mawile and Greninja did (switch-ins ?). Indeed it's bulky and can, thanks to its steel typing, easily switch in on things like Lati@s and Gardevoir, but he can't regenerate, and, after one or two switch-ins, quickly goes in KO range (Manectric flamethrower, HJK Lopunny, Diancie, Bisharp, Landorus-T...)
Ultimately, I would consider Mega Metagross as a dangerous top tier, but not as an Uber.
I'd like to start playing on the suspect ladder whenever I can to compile a more accurate opinion on whether or not Metagrossite is ban-worthy or not, but what I can do at the moment is express my views on The Terminator (Megagross).
Arnold Schwarzenegger here is obscenely powerful, with little to no opportunity cost whatsoever. The ex-governor of California has Landorus-T's Attack stat, Tough Claws that can boost all of its contact moves, even GRASS KNOT of all attacks, the coveted Speed tier of 110, a higher Defense stat than Skarmory (which I know really makes no difference because Arnold never invests in Defense, but 80/150 is still higher than 65/140 naturally) and a Movepool that can cause significant damage to a vast majority of the tier.
He does have downsides, however. No access to recovery means that Terminator over here is very easily worn down by hazards and VoltTurn, and all you can do is Wish for there to be any sort of maintenance service to be available at the ready. Arnold also can't run all of its coverage moves, but that's a slippery subject because just like Greninja before it, it can choose what walls it based on what the rest of its team is running in terms of coverage. That also makes the ex-governor extremely good at keeping a Poker Face.
I keep reading about how Fairies will become a dominant force in the ORAS metagame if Arnold does in fact get banned. Here's the issue I have with this argument. Were Fairies like Gardevoir, Clefable and Azumarill all that dominating in the XY metagame when Mawilite and Aegislash were banned to the point where they became a legitimate problem to the development of the OU tier? Not from what I remember. If I remember correctly, OU still has plenty of Steel types to choose from, such as Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Heatran, Scizor and its Mega, Skarmory, Magnezone, Excadrill and Bisharp as Fairy spam checks, not to mention some of the lower tier Steels like Mega Aggron and the less-useful brother Mega Steelix, Bronzong and Doublade that can still fare useful against a wide range of Fairy types. Arnold just happens to be the best option, but to say that all is lost and fairies will rule the OU world is a bit questionable, if you ask me.
Again, I really can't say whether or not I'm down for this thing to be banned yet, because I haven't experienced the suspect ladder yet, so once I've played around there for a while, I'll make a second post here with my thoughts on the matter.
I've been reading and discussing quite a bunch about OU and its current state as a competitive tier for a while now, and I want to share my thoughts on the matter.
As usual, I'd like to mention that what I'm gonna advance is only my personal point of view and I'm the only one bound by this view, I don't mean it as an established fact.
As usual, the OU tier loses its stability when we move to a new generation or when a lot of big changes are brought in at once (read: lot of new top tiers, usually due to the release of a new cartridge). The tier kinda turns upside down for some time. It's been the case with ORAS and Mega-Salamence/Greninja got pretty much unanimously and rigthfully banned because they were way too good at what they could do.
Greninja has been banned for a good month now, and I feel that ORAS is genuinely unstable right now (I repeat: this is only my opinion here). Not only did I feel it through my own experience on the tier (by playing and building in it), but I also noticed a lot of players shared my point of view on the matter, whether they are ladder heroes or tournament players. It seems that the general consensus is that ORAS is a tier where match-up is a huge issue, and that it's hard to avoid it, even if you do your best to adapt to it from a teambuilding point of view. There are also very few players who manage to get inherently better and more consistant (tournament-wise) in ORAS (unlike XY), which is typically a major problem you can observe when a tier is unstable.
This is very important, it's the main reason that pushed me to "launch" a suspect after some discussion with the Council members as well as many players beforehand. My opinion emerges from the principle that ORAS shouldn't stay in its current state, and that something must happen to cause some changes that will, hopefully, turn out to be steps in the right direction.
Where should we start though? After spending quite some time conversing on the matter, I reached the conclusion that Mega-Metagross is currently one of the most annoying Pokemon to deal with, from both a playing and teambuilding standpoint, and for a multitude of playstyles. Consequently, I -as well as the Council- thought that it deserved to be the first suspect as an attempt to fix the tier.
As for MMetagross itself, I'm 100% for its ban. However, I'd like to mention that I don't think Metagross is outright broken, like the previously banned Pokémons before it in XY/ORAS (think Mawile, Aegislash or Greninja). I just think it's one of the main culprit behind the match-up issue that I described earlier (and I'd like to to add that I personally think Sableye is absolutely not at Metagross level in this regard, but let's disgress).
I'd like to compare Metagross to Excadrill in BW1, not for their inherent traits as Pokémons, but rather for their influence on the tier and particulary its development. Excadrill was one of the best Pokémon in BW1. As such, everyone was rightfully prepared to face it. There were "classic" checks/counter which were clearly overused like Gliscor, Rotom-W or Skarmory, and there were more obscure checks/counters such as Bronzong or Virizion, to only name a few. Excadrill was still a top-notch Pokémon, but wasn't (in my humble opinion, I insist) as broken as the previously banned Pokémon. Yet, I was completely for its ban for the simple reason that it was totally blocking the metagame evolution because of its weight on the teambuilding (on top of everything else that was popular obviously) and its faculty to be amazing against pretty much every Offense and a good amount of Balance (and you could even argue Stall didn't like facing the Air Baloon SD Set at all).
I think MMetagross is one of the threat preventing the tier to evolve to a more stable state, and that's why I want to ban it (not for its individual qualities, albeit they're excellent, but many people have touched upon them already in the thread).
I'd also like to think that MMetagross leaving will increase the utilization of fairy-type, which should make people thinking Mega-Sableye is still a potential suspect think twice about it. In general, I'd like to see how the metagame and teambuilding will evolve once we will be freed from Metagross's heavy shackles (I hope, and I believe we can reach a more stable ORAS, a la XY, with some changes, even if I know some people don't share my opinion here).
Can you please elaborate on your definitions of "unstable metagame" and "fix"? You utilized those terms multiple times in your post, however, I still do not have a clear understanding of what you specifically mean. One thing you mentioned was that Metagross stifles the team bulding process for multiple play styles. Which playstyles are you referring to specifically? It is well known and has been said ad nauseum that M-Meta is a gigantic threat to offensive teams. I've already touched up on why I think that is erroneous thinking and how the limitations a pokemon may or may not impose on one individual facet of the game should never be enough to warrant a ban. If you are also saying that M-Meta is dangerous towards Defensive and Balanced playstyles (or any other team styles that I'm not mentioning), please give specific examples to counter the numerous defensive counters and checks that have been mentioned dozens of times in this thread already. People have posted multiple things such as Celebi, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Cofagrigus, Slowbro variants, etc. and have shown that there currently is no M-Meta set that can simultaneously handle its offensive and defensive checks. However, I have not seen anything that specifically disputes this. Pokemon has been and always will be a matchup dependent game - trying to "fix" this is like trying to change the fundamental aspects of what makes this game unique and interesting. If matchup was never an issue, there would be no point to the specific sets, strategies, and ideals that this community works so hard to develop. No matter what comes and goes in a metagame, there will always be certain matchups that have advantages over others. This is a hallmark sign of a healthy game; one that necessitates brainpower and creativity for efficient threat management.
People who complain that M-Meta hampers the development of offensive teams indicate a larger problem with playstyle distribution. Before M-Meta was even a thing, offense was the dominant team style that pretty much shat on everythin - are you saying that a pokemon who shifts the focus AWAY from such myopic teambuilding is toxic/unstable? Because to me, a metagame dominated by one playstyle is inherently unhealthy to begin with. If M-Meta is taking the focus away from this and forcing people to adapt and change their team building strategies, how is that not the definition of healthy? I think the hyper-focus on offensive playstyles is blinding people to the actual benefits that M-Meta induces in this game - change is not always bad and if some teams need to adapt to a more balanced/defensive style if they want to handle Metagross, then there is nothing wrong with that. Offensive shouldn't be scrambling for a switch-in anyway and saying otherwise completely counters the whole idea of that playstyle to begin with.
The amount of speculation here is getting pretty crazy. "Fairies are gonna run wild" "Diancie is gonna be banned next if Metagross goes" Isn't that why we have the suspect ladder? To experience the metagame without Metagross and actually see what happens, rather than theorizing about what will happen.
Also all the comparisons to former suspects.. ugh. We should be trying to figure out if Metagross is an Uber level threat in the current metagame. Comparing it to previous threats with vastly different characteristics that were or weren't banned in different metagames is not a feasible way to do this. No comparison is parallel and most either come from or lead to false assumptions.
I'll elaborate on my ever-evolving opinion on Metagross' placement once I have played enough on the suspect ladder.
On a bit of an ironic note.
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blaziken in Rain: 1080-1272 (357.6 - 421.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Because Broken beats broken is a good argument.
Lol I'm glad you had the coherency and fortitude to read the rest of the post. The point was that OU is getting stronger on average, I mean there's been an obvious power creep trend through the generations and it's only going to continue, so without being fey about it I think it's something to address and think critically about rather than being deliberately misleading
Lol I'm glad you had the coherency and fortitude to read the rest of the post. The point was that OU is getting stronger on average, I mean there's been an obvious power creep trend through the generations and it's only going to continue, so without being fey about it I think it's something to address and think critically about rather than being deliberately misleading
The issue with this argument is that we aren't trying to balance future generations: we're trying to balance THIS generation. Also, the idea that bans we instate now will impact the next generation is unfounded. Name one ban we instated this generation that was based on ANYTHING instated in generation 5. With the possible exception of complex bans, no bans in older generations have impacted the decisions we have made up to now, so I don't see why we need to worry about newer generations: there will be a power creep next gen to be sure, but we don't know what will happen next gen in terms of meta changes nor is there any sign that what we ban this generation will impact the following generation. For all we know, OU next generation will only have like 10 new threats that are reasonably easy to handle. Therefore, there is ZERO reason to not ban something this gen based on speculations about what we ban in later generations.
I don't really want to say too much, as I want to get my rating up on the ladder first to actually qualify and to get experience on a Meta-less meta, but as of now I'm leaning towards letting Metagrossite stay in OU. Metagross is definitely the top tier right now, but I don't think it is overpowered enough to warrant a ban. Most of what I believe has already been said, so I won't waste my time and yours by repeating it right now. But I do want to offer some food for thought. For the people claiming that Metagross requires multiple checks, keep in mind that many if not all of the top tier threats also require that; it's to be expected of what are arguably the most dangerous threats in the metagame. For example, you would be hard-pressed to find successful teams that don't have multiple checks for birdspam (which is just talonflame at this point, since MPinsir dropped to BL). When you consider that the multiple checks for it are common pokemon in the tier that also serve multiple other roles other than specific checks, it isn't unreasonable to think that you might need more than one to handle what is essentially the top of the OU food chain. That's pretty much how the metagame has been with the massive power creeps of this generation, I don't think it's grounds for a ban when there are actually checks and counters to be found in the tier.
Also, thought it should be mentioned that SpDef Bro actually beats every metagross 1v1 barring the thunder punch variants which don't exist.
4 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Switch in, paralyze it, recover, and chip until it dies. Note that you don't even need leftovers, so rocky helmet can be used. You could even slap on a mega stone and simply refrain from Mevoing. If you're extremely worried about killing Gross right away, Fire Blast is a guaranteed 2ko after stealth rocks with no investment and a neutral nature.
Oh, and I don't want to give any credence to the argument that we shouldn't ban things based on other things being too powerful afterwards, but do keep in mind people that two of the most devastating fairy sweepers in the game right now didn't exist in XY. Whether they need to be banned is a separate issue entirely, but don't compare the metagame now to how it was before ORAS.
I am baffled to all these arguments about how Metagross "restricts teambuilding", particularly offense. People have argued that offensive teams have no switch ins or checks for it. If you are building an offensive team with switch ins to every threat then you clearly have failed to build an offensive team.
Yes, Metagross can feast on some HO teams, but honestly, so does literally every other fast hard hitter. In fact, I would argue Lopunny is a bigger threat since it outspeeds more things like Thundurus, a HO staple. Lopunny is much more threatening and "restrics" my team building for HO teams more than Metagross, but there seems to be no eagerness to ban her (but I digress). In other words, banning Metagross since it limits offensive teams is incredibly stupid, and also not true (Bisharp, Scarf Lando, Thundy, Lopunny, Mega Scizor, Gengar can revenge it).
Defensive teams also have many answers for it as well, such as Rocky Helm Skarm (imo the best answer for it after Scizor), Defensive Victini, Bronzong if you are desperate, Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, SpD Slowbro, even Phys Defensive AV Slowking can probably handle it (I admit I haven't done calcs). I honestly do not see how it limits teambuilding more than other threats, as most of the mons listed can do much more than revenge or wall Metagross.
Can you please elaborate on your definitions of "unstable metagame" and "fix"? You utilized those terms multiple times in your post, however, I still do not have a clear understanding of what you specifically mean. One thing you mentioned was that Metagross stifles the team bulding process for multiple play styles. Which playstyles are you referring to specifically? It is well known and has been said ad nauseum that M-Meta is a gigantic threat to offensive teams. I've already touched up on why I think that is erroneous thinking and how the limitations a pokemon may or may not impose on one individual facet of the game should never be enough to warrant a ban. If you are also saying that M-Meta is dangerous towards Defensive and Balanced playstyles (or any other team styles that I'm not mentioning), please give specific examples to counter the numerous defensive counters and checks that have been mentioned dozens of times in this thread already. People have posted multiple things such as Celebi, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Cofagrigus, Slowbro variants, etc. and have shown that there currently is no M-Meta set that can simultaneously handle its offensive and defensive checks. However, I have not seen anything that specifically disputes this. Pokemon has been and always will be a matchup dependent game - trying to "fix" this is like trying to change the fundamental aspects of what makes this game unique and interesting. If matchup was never an issue, there would be no point to the specific sets, strategies, and ideals that this community works so hard to develop. No matter what comes and goes in a metagame, there will always be certain matchups that have advantages over others. This is a hallmark sign of a healthy game; one that necessitates brainpower and creativity for efficient threat management.
People who complain that M-Meta hampers the development of offensive teams indicate a larger problem with playstyle distribution. Before M-Meta was even a thing, offense was the dominant team style that pretty much shat on everythin - are you saying that a pokemon who shifts the focus AWAY from such myopic teambuilding is toxic/unstable? Because to me, a metagame dominated by one playstyle is inherently unhealthy to begin with. If M-Meta is taking the focus away from this and forcing people to adapt and change their team building strategies, how is that not the definition of healthy? I think the hyper-focus on offensive playstyles is blinding people to the actual benefits that M-Meta induces in this game - change is not always bad and if some teams need to adapt to a more balanced/defensive style if they want to handle Metagross, then there is nothing wrong with that. Offensive shouldn't be scrambling for a switch-in anyway and saying otherwise completely counters the whole idea of that playstyle to begin with.
I'd just like to say that this isn't necessarily true, in past generations (mostly those before 5) most playstyles had ways to cover most of the threats in the meta on one team, outside of specific mons and sets run to break down specific playstyles or cores, which ideally leads to a more skillbased game overall. Probably the most obvious example of this is Gen 2 Ou where a centralizing force like Snorlax that creates a more closed off meta allows for less reliance on team match up and more on the actual play.
I'd just like to say that this isn't true, in past generations (mostly those before 5) most playstyles had ways to cover most of the threats in the meta on one team outside of specific mons and sets run to break down specific playstyles or cores which ideally leads to a more skillbased game overall. Probably the most obvious example of this is Gen 2 Ou where a centralizing force like Snorlax that creates a more closed off meta allows for less reliance on team match up and more on the actual play.
I see your point, but juxtaposing a past generation to the current one is no longer an apt comparison - and its been that way for a while. The game has evolved significantly in terms of individual mechanics and sets not to mention the slew of new pokemon that have been brought to the table. The specifics revolving around each team style have changed significantly as well.
Also, your last sentence confuses me, if snorlax was centralizing isn't it good that it creates a meta that "allows for less reliance on team match up and more on the actual play"? That is literally the exact problem McMeghan was addressing.
I don't really want to say too much, as I want to get my rating up on the ladder first to actually qualify and to get experience on a Meta-less meta, but as of now I'm leaning towards letting Metagrossite stay in OU. Metagross is definitely the top tier right now, but I don't think it is overpowered enough to warrant a ban. Most of what I believe has already been said, so I won't waste my time and yours by repeating it right now. But I do want to offer some food for thought. For the people claiming that Metagross requires multiple checks, keep in mind that many if not all of the top tier threats also require that; it's to be expected of what are arguably the most dangerous threats in the metagame. For example, you would be hard-pressed to find successful teams that don't have multiple checks for birdspam (which is just talonflame at this point, since MPinsir dropped to BL). When you consider that the multiple checks for it are common pokemon in the tier that also serve multiple other roles other than specific checks, it isn't unreasonable to think that you might need more than one to handle what is essentially the top of the OU food chain. That's pretty much how the metagame has been with the massive power creeps of this generation, I don't think it's grounds for a ban when there are actually checks and counters to be found in the tier.
Also, thought it should be mentioned that SpDef Bro actually beats every metagross 1v1 barring the thunder punch variants which don't exist.
4 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Switch in, paralyze it, recover, and chip until it dies. Note that you don't even need leftovers, so rocky helmet can be used. You could even slap on a mega stone and simply refrain from Mevoing. If you're extremely worried about killing Gross right away, Fire Blast is a guaranteed 2ko after stealth rocks with no investment and a neutral nature.
Oh, and I don't want to give any credence to the argument that we shouldn't ban things based on other things being too powerful afterwards, but do keep in mind people that two of the most devastating fairy sweepers in the game right now didn't exist in XY. Whether they need to be banned is a separate issue entirely, but don't compare the metagame now to how it was before ORAS.
The problem with that Slowbro it's that it is terribly outclassed in its role by the physically defensive counterpart, heck you may even use Slowking at this point and spare some p. defensive evs.
To make a point: Choice Scarf Lantherian now have high chances to 2hko you with Knock Off and Stealth Rocks on the field, along with other stuff like orb excadrill always 2hkoing you without even sr, even sharp beak talonflame has some chances to ohko you after a swords dance and stealth rocks on the field.
Megabro is actually okay, but well, it's a mega, you shouldn't use a mega just to stop another mega, due to their unique nature and restriction.
You basically diminish Slowbro's purpouse in the tier only to have better chances against a single threat, I'm pretty sure that it isn't the right way to defend a threat's placement on a tier, especially in a metagame such as ORAS OU, who has many top threats you need to watch out for, and; while it's true that Megagross has its fair share of checks the problem as already stated by MCM, isn't it being broken (because tbh Metagross isn't "broken"), but the overpreparation it requires you to face when teambuilding, which brings later the Matchup Issue.
So I'm Pro-Ban, don't know if I will have enough spare time to get reqs just like the Greninja one, but I'm interested in the direction the tier is going.
I see your point, but juxtaposing a past generation to the current one is no longer an apt comparison - and its been that way for a while. The game has evolved significantly in terms of individual mechanics and sets not to mention the slew of new pokemon that have been brought to the table. The specifics revolving around each team style have changed significantly as well.
Also, your last sentence confuses me, if snorlax was centralizing isn't it good that it creates a meta that "allows for less reliance on team match up and more on the actual play"? That is literally the exact problem McMeghan was addressing.
I wasn't juxtaposing anything I was only responding to what you said that I bolded in the quote, I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. "Pokemon has been and always will be a matchup dependent game"
Though there is an argument for something like aegislash having both tremendous offensive and defensive capabilities being healthy since it shaves whole groups of mons out of the equation and limits the playing field which makes it less difiicult to build reliably for most if not all relevant or common threats, it really just depends on your idea of what a healthy metagame looks like. People also cite things like King's Shield's promotion of 50/50s as something that can detract from the level of skill in a match so it's kind of a gray area.
The problem with that Slowbro it's that it is terribly outclassed in its role by the physically defensive counterpart, heck you may even use Slowking at this point and spare some p. defensive evs.
To make a point: Choice Scarf Lantherian now have high chances to 2hko you with Knock Off and Stealth Rocks on the field, along with other stuff like orb excadrill always 2hkoing you without even sr, even sharp beak talonflame has some chances to ohko you after a swords dance and stealth rocks on the field.
Megabro is actually okay, but well, it's a mega, you shouldn't use a mega just to stop another mega, due to their unique nature and restriction.
You basically diminish Slowbro's purpouse in the tier only to have better chances against a single threat, I'm pretty sure that it isn't the right way to defend a threat's placement on a tier, especially in a metagame such as ORAS OU, who has many top threats you need to watch out for, and; while it's true that Megagross has its fair share of checks the problem as already stated by MCM, isn't it being broken (because tbh Metagross isn't "broken"), but the overpreparation it requires you to face when teambuilding, which brings later the Matchup Issue.
So I'm Pro-Ban, don't know if I will have enough spare time to get reqs just like the Greninja one, but I'm interested in the direction the tier is going.
The slowbro was actually for it to be using its mega form, I was just offering the rocky helmet as an alternative for more chipping. I believe SpD MegaBro saw some use in early ORAS as a fantastic mixed tank, helping it deal with other things like keldeo. In that way, Lando-T will never 2 shot you with knock off in base form, and Bro could Mevo against the threats you mentioned in order to handle them. And the whole point of me offering that set was simply to add another Mon to the hard counter list, since I was tired of the "no counters" argument flying around earlier. Bro obviously doesn't fit on every team archetype, and if you are using offense (which is the type of teams that are most affected by Gross atm), checks are the best you can get anyways. Although, I have to say that if you want a 100% counter to the best mega in the metagame, using your mega slot for that purpose isn't exactly unfair.
I can't comment on the overpreparation factor, as I have yet to do extensive testing on the suspect ladder. However, I don't believe banning Gross will fix that issue, as I think it is due primarily to the relative power creep that is Gen 6. Whether that's true or not remains to be seen, but I can't in all good faith support the banning of a pokemon for the sole purpose of "shaking things up" so to speak. Like I said, if my experience laddering leads me to believe that Gross leaving would create a more diverse metagame, then I may change my opinion.
I usually don’t bother too much with these discussions, but since Metagross is probably the most controversial suspect since Aegislash I figure I’ll throw in my two cents. For what it’s worth I’ve supported the idea of a suspect test on this since not too long after Greninja left, but I was always on the fence as to whether or not I felt it should actually be banned until recently.
While Metagross might not be inherently broken, I believe it has an overall negative impact on the tier. As McMeghan mentioned in his post the tier is noticeably much less stable than it was during say the late period of XY, and quite a bit of this can be attributed to the effect Metagross has on teambuilding. Between its most common moves Metagross has only a select few viable checks, and fewer counters, though most of these checks are limited in terms of either effectiveness or which teams they can viably be used on. As an example of checks which are the most part ineffective things such as Rotom-W or Landorus-T come to mind. Both are easily worn down and are incapable of switching in aside from on specific moves, and if you’re using one of these, or potentially even both, chances are you will still struggle against most competent Metagross teams. Rotom-W can be easily weakened into range for Zen Headbutt (which it gets 2HKO’d by after SR a majority of the time anyway making it an unreliable answer to begin with) and can do little back other than burn it, which doesn’t always solve the problem as some teams will carry support in the form of Heal Bell or Healing Wish. Landorus-T takes massive damage switching into Metagross a majority of the time since it doesn’t resist either of its STABs, especially if it has yet to mega thanks to Clear Body. Defensive variants of Landorus-T are also too weak to KO a healthy Metagross with EQ, and are outsped and 2HKO’d a majority of the time with SR up provided Clear Body came into effect. Even if Metagross already has mega’d it’s still a one-time check at best anyway. Scarf variants can revenge it fairly reliably, but have much more trouble finding chances to switch into it. Also being forced to lock yourself into EQ can give free turns to a majority of teams due to the prevalence of ground immunities on teams.
Other checks such as Slowbro, Suicune, Hippowdon, Starmie, Jirachi, and Ferrothorn are largely reliant on the combination of prediction on top of which sort of coverage Metagross carries in order to deal with it. Living So Zambian brought up the point that using these in cores such as Slowbro+Ferrothorn can check Metagross fairly reliably (granted prediction is still a two way argument), however these checks and the cores they form are limited in terms of which sorts of teams they can fit on (mostly limited to balance/stall) and this only helps illustrate the negative impact Metagross has on teambuilding. Judging on observations from recent tournament matches, namely from SPL, some of the most consistent teams have been increasingly defensive in nature largely because most ways of reliably checking top threats such as Metagross are viable primarily on these types of teams. This is also true for its few counters such as Alomomola and Counter Skarmory. Simply put offensive teams tend to lack the ability to fit these sorts of checks onto teams and are forced to rely primarily on revenge killing, which might be natural for certain offensive teams, however few things possess the combination of power to break through its tremendous bulk and speed to outrun it without resorting to being Choice locked into a move that can be easily taken advantage of. The potential for Metagross to run Agility/Rock Polish sets further limits the amount of things that can reliably revenge kill it since being able to take a hit becomes required unless you have Bisharp which still fails to OHKO a healthy Metagross. Mega Scizor stands as perhaps one of the most reliable Metagross checks around as it has only the elusive HP Fire to fear, and it can work well with nearly any playstyle, however it still has trouble finding its way onto most teams due to being a mega.
In summary while there are still ways in which Metagross can be dealt with effectively, these means are fairly restrictive which places immense strain on teambuilding to the point where it has a clear unhealthy effect on the metagame. In my opinion banning Metagrossite is the first step that should be taken towards reaching a more balanced metagame, and as a result I plan on voting for a Ban.
The slowbro was actually for it to be using its mega form, I was just offering the rocky helmet as an alternative for more chipping. I believe SpD MegaBro saw some use in early ORAS as a fantastic mixed tank, helping it deal with other things like keldeo. In that way, Lando-T will never 2 shot you with knock off in base form, and Bro could Mevo against the threats you mentioned in order to handle them. And the whole point of me offering that set was simply to add another Mon to the hard counter list, since I was tired of the "no counters" argument flying around earlier. Bro obviously doesn't fit on every team archetype, and if you are using offense (which is the type of teams that are most affected by Gross atm), you shouldn't be looking for hard counters anyways.
I can't comment on the overpreparation factor, as I have yet to do extensive testing on the suspect ladder. However, I don't believe banning Gross will fix that issue, as I think it is due primarily to the relative power creep that is Gen 6. Whether that's true or not remains to be seen, but I can't in all good faith support the banning of a pokemon for the sole purpose of "shaking things up" so to speak. Like I said, if my experience laddering leads me to believe that Gross leaving would create a more diverse metagame, then I may change my opinion.
The damage calc refers to non Megabro, I agree that Megabro is a fantastic win condition, also able to protect you against Megagross, but it's a mega slot, you're not supposed to add on every team Megabro in order to feel safe against a single threat (especially here on ORAS OU), be it that you build a Stall, Balance, Bulky Offense, Hyper Offense, etc team.
Anyways it's not that players wants to ban Mega Metagross only to "shake things up" the logic for this ban (overpreparation) is actually very similiar to Aldaron's stance on Aegislash: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ost-of-perdition.3511596/page-21#post-5591004
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 258-304 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 265-315 (88 - 104.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 270-318 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 201-237 (66.7 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Deoxys-D: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kind of seems to me that it's an incredibly recursive loops starting to form. Getting rid of one thing causes another to become overpowered relatively. Maybe the problem isn't necessarily in the individual strength of the pokemon itself, but OU as a whole is getting, well, "stronger"? Mega Metagross can get either OHKOd or takes a severe amount of damage from plenty of things that have been banned recently. Deo D can force a 3HKO. Mega Metagross can't switch in on three of the above.
Now I'm not saying that it'd all be fine and dandy to reinstate Mawile, Greninja, Aegishlash and Kangaskhan. Obviously not. But the trend of suspects and banning seems to be hitting certain mons who, while not Uber material, are very good in OU and form sort of a balance in and of themselves. Like I said, a recursive loop that is feeding itself over and over almost.
Small nitpick, but most Mega Metagross run Naive over Hasty. The Gamut calc defaults to Hasty, but you lose more in total stats due to natures being percentage based. And when you take that into consideration, Mawile becomes a very shaky check.
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 258-304 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 258-304 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 232-274 (77 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 177-208 (58.2 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
^and yes, I know Mawile hardly ever ran max bulk. But even with max HP, it can't switch into whats probably Meta's most spammable move. Even Mash and Hammer Arm guarantees a KO at minimum rolls. Granted, that makes Aegi and Greninja stronger answers, but they were already the strongest out of the checks / RKers you listed.
The damage calc refers to non Megabro, I agree that Megabro is a fantastic win condition, also able to protect you against Megagross, but it's a mega slot, you're not supposed to add on every team Megabro in order to feel safe against a single threat (especially here on ORAS OU), be it that you build a Stall, Balance, Bulky Offense, Hyper Offense, etc team.
Anyways it's not that players wants to ban Mega Metagross only to "shake things up" the logic for this ban is actually very similiar to Aldaron's stance on Aegislash: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ost-of-perdition.3511596/page-21#post-5591004
Just clarifying that the calc is for non mega bro because non mega bro is the only one eating up GK, so you wouldn't want to evolve right away. And besides, MBro is only preferred because of its ability to deal with the rest of the metagame, not metagross itself. Fair enough on that point, hence it was simply an addition to the list of hard counters, not the only one. And on the Aegislash stance, I disagree in that I don't believe it has as much of an impact on the metagame as Aegislash did, I.E. rendering dozens of otherwise OU grade pokemon unviable or requiring extreme specialization to handle. But again, I will reserve my ultimate judgment until after I have seen what the metagame will look like without it. That, to me, is the most important deciding factor in a case such as this.
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Slowbro: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Because it's not like you can run SpD Slowbro, which counters both Mega Metagross and Keldeo.
NO BAN
Preface: You guys here scare me, I swear every time a suspect test rolls around its like you are copying and pasting the same arguments without thought. Throwing around words like "overcentralize" and rambling on about calc's that are completely irrelevant to the discussion. It is silly that this thing is really being put up for a suspect. It's like were trying to chop off the left end of a stick here. There is always something we are trying to ban because we claim it's making the meta unstable, when maybe THE BANS are what is making things unstable.
Metagross is only really limiting, or "overcentralizing" to offensive teams, as other play styles naturally have answers for him. How does that make him broken? That sounds like a balanced meta to me. No one play style goes unchecked. He is a hard hitting tank, same way salamence was (I use him because people actually compared the two earlier in the thread), but unlike salamence, there are enough reasons against him to actually justify running something else. Unlike Greninja and Salamence before him, you don't need to dedicate a member of your team or resort to niche' gimmicky tricks to handle mega metagross. Many of his checks and counters also are checks and counters to half of the meta. And if you have and offensive team that is weak to Metagross but you shred right through anything else then wanting to ban him is selfish and is unhealthy for the meta. He Is a very good pokemon, and maybe even the best mega available right now. That doesn't make him ban worthy. He has natural team building synergy in that Most of his walls have poor special defense, and most of his best team mates are special attackers. Also, most viable special walls are weak to metagross. This combination makes him tricky to deal with for conventional teams, but does not make him broken. Ground, Fire, Dark, And Shadowball are all common offensively, so he has plenty weaknesses. Banning mega Metagross is just a lazy attempt to fix a meta that I don't even feel is broken or unstable right now.
