np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]

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silver97

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we're finally gonna see how aegi will affect the oras metagame. When it was banned from xy i was quite sure about how it was too much for the ou environment due to the molteplicity and variety of his sets and the roles it performed on a team. Tbh at the moment i don't think anything relevant changed putting a limit to hit, but i'm interested in how it will affect this meta; what i hope is that aegi with its incredible utility and capabilities as a glue mon will limitate the prominence of powerful attackers such as diancie and metagross, making the metagame more stable and easy to deal with in teambuilding.
 
The 50 50s argument is such bs as the entire metagame is based on those, should i use earthquake or u turn with lando t, should i stay in or switch, should i predict a switch, should i use knock off or sucker punch etc. Stop pretending everything that happens in this game is skill, you can try to get to know your opponent but sometimes you just have to guess what they will do. Finally everyone overrates king shield, trick the opponent into using it while you use a fighting move or special attack and you are pretty much free to hit them the next turn. It does not have base 720 total stat. Stance change is a cool ability but it can be rather easily exploited as well. Yes guys there are mind games involved in pokemon and aegislash causes some, lets get over this phobia and look at the facts. Next lets stop acting like it is impossible to hit, earthquake, probably the single most common physical attacking move in the game. It also happens to be super effective and gets around KS. Running this or fire blast or earthpower really isn't that big of a constraint on team building. You can even run it on your mega metagross you are so worried about being less effective. Also it was barely banned from XY (more because of peer pressure than because it was actually broken) and honestly it will help take fairys such as mega altaria, clefable and mega diance down a notch which is, in my opinion, a good thing. I wouldn't say it got better though as mega Loppunny, already a dominant pokemon is a problem for it. The truth is aegislash really isn't broken now and wasn't before. I am glad we are getting a chance to try it back out.
 

MZ

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The 50 50s argument is such bs as the entire metagame is based on those, should i use earthquake or u turn with lando t, should i stay in or switch, should i predict a switch, should i use knock off or sucker punch etc. Stop pretending everything that happens in this game is skill, you can try to get to know your opponent but sometimes you just have to guess what they will do. Finally everyone overrates king shield, trick the opponent into using it while you use a fighting move or special attack and you are pretty much free to hit them the next turn. It does not have base 720 total stat. Stance change is a cool ability but it can be rather easily exploited as well. Yes guys there are mind games involved in pokemon and aegislash causes some, lets get over this phobia and look at the facts. Next lets stop acting like it is impossible to hit, earthquake, probably the single most common physical attacking move in the game. It also happens to be super effective and gets around KS. Running this or fire blast or earthpower really isn't that big of a constraint on team building. You can even run it on your mega metagross you are so worried about being less effective. Also it was barely banned from XY (more because of peer pressure than because it was actually broken) and honestly it will help take fairys such as mega altaria, clefable and mega diance down a notch which is, in my opinion, a good thing. I wouldn't say it got better though as mega Loppunny, already a dominant pokemon is a problem for it. The truth is aegislash really isn't broken now and wasn't before. I am glad we are getting a chance to try it back out.
Those aren't exactly 50/50s because there are other clues you can use, such as team preview to know what people are using. Some are, like sucker vs pursuit, but the argument is that slash causes excessive 50/50s, not just that they're caused. Not necessarily against your point, just pointing out the differences.
 

Voltage

OTTN5
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Well at least everyone got what theyy wanted. Honestly though, I can really see Aegislash once again redefining the meta. All these amazing new megas are going to be thrown into the trash in favor of a select few. Sure, Aegislash might check a good portion of the meta, is that exactly healthy? I mean, Sure Mega Lopunny beats this thing pretty well, but things like Mega Metagross, once broken, now forced to run EQ to avoid being hard walled by Aegis. I defeintely have mixed opinions on this and will ladder to figure out my opinion since I'm a blank slate right now.
 
Mmmh unbanning aegislash means give even more relevance to threat like landoi, zardy, mega lopunny, bisharp and gliscor, and at the same moment, put another huge threat in the OU metagame. Also, fairys except mega altaria are nerfed, same for fights except keldeo and lopunny. After those typings, some OU newcomers like starmie, jirachi and serperior are useless now.

Something about the hazard control: using starmie means no spinning and give a free sub/sball to aegi, same for latwins. Except mandibuzz and excadrill (inb4 AB aegislash) i don't know how to remove the hazards without being fucked by that shield. And no, tentacruel is shit.

About the 50/50 coin flip/no skill concept: i think is too much saying "coin flip", is a simple prediction, nothing more; even if exist differents kinds of 50/50, i don't think that aegi can force more than five or six 50/50 in one match, probably if u fight against a team with one volturn chain, u are forced to do more coin flips, so really this is not an argument, pokemon isn't chess.

Even worse is the "durrr, u don't know the set, u are forced to sacrifice a pokemon to scout". After DPP the match up is a huge problem in pokemon. Even without aegi in OU, a lot of pokemons are able to destroy a check simply using a coverage move (just think about eq/hp fire latios, or even worst, trick).

Outside this, i'm really happy to use another time this pokemon, so thanks smogon.
 
Plus, all aegi sets hate para/burn.
While no doubt that Aegi wouldn't appreciate a status effect I wouldn't agree that it is as hampered by status effects as you make out. Popular sets of Aegis were mixed attackers or pure special attackers, hitting with Shadow Ball/Flash Canon/Secret Sword (other sets were toxic stall). Those sets wouldn't particularly care or mind about Burns/Paralysis in so much that it won't hamper in functioning its role. It isn't crippled so to speak by those status effects.

Its speed may be sub-par but that never particularly hampered its performance since it has 150/150 defenses and unique typing to easily stomach a hit and retaliate hard, and priority to clean off what is needed or gain momentum via Kings Shield. I think you've put too much emphasis on the lack of speed when from experience that has hardly been an impediment to its performance, same can be said about status effects (they don't cripple him just inconvenience Aegis).
 
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Valmanway

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Well at least everyone got what theyy wanted. Honestly though, I can really see Aegislash once again redefining the meta. All these amazing new megas are going to be thrown into the trash in favor of a select few. Sure, Aegislash might check a good portion of the meta, is that exactly healthy? I mean, Sure Mega Lopunny beats this thing pretty well, but things like Mega Metagross, once broken, now forced to run EQ to avoid being hard walled by Aegis. I defeintely have mixed opinions on this and will ladder to figure out my opinion since I'm a blank slate right now.
I wouldn't exactly say Mega Lopunny beats it pretty well, as King's Shield can turn High Jump Kick into a severe liability, not only because the recoil of not directly hitting the intended target, but also because of King's Shield's Attack dropping effect.
 

Karxrida

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Aegislash very much cares about Burn because it will slowly kill it, making checking threats harder because it cannot keep itself alive (especially if it's not running Leftovers). Losing the ability to hit things meaningfully on the physical side make it much easier for a Ghost resist/special tank to switch into it and prevents it from finishing things off with Shadow Sneak. Paralysis only matters if it get paralyzed trying to hit something with Shadow Sneak or block a move with King's Shield (Stance Change happens before paralysis kicks in), but that's more of a hax issue.
 
Finally glad this is happening. A lot of the justification for banning Aegislash back in XY was "50-50 coinflip" nonsense (in my opinion) about King's Shield and how it increased arbitrary decisions in the game. TBH there are many other scenarios / pokemon that create this 50 / 50 dicotomy (Pursuit, s, U-turn, Strong Choiceed users, etc...) that punish just as hard as King's Shield yet we do not go for bans on those game elements. Aegislash was never really a poke that swept teams outright, unlike some ridiculous sweepers we have now (ex .Mega-Metagross).

Another thing to consider is how much the game has evolved since Aegislash and new threats that can cover it. People have gotten more comfortable with using lower tiers pokemon that could check Aegislash like Hydreigon and Crawdaunt + newly introduced pokes that could check it like Mega-Loppunny (Encore it into a Ghost-move or King's Shield)
I will have to completely disagree with that first paragraph. King's shield has an unique way of punishing that either wins you the 1v1 or deals a ton of damage unless you are going first and are able to 0hko him. Pursuit trap its usually aimed to the same mons and its normaly easy to counter, bout the other so called 50/50 i really wont call them like that... And talking about the "ridiculous sweepers" they were made to be like that of course Aslash wont sweep you in its first chance... but he will slowly do if.

The thing is that rigth now it can be countered quite easily sinse we have a lot of new megas ir old ones with new toys to check/counter him.

-Malt may not be able to switch on him(unless he is encored taunted) but god damn that fluffy thing takes him away
-Gallade kills his blade form like 4 times with a single knock off, aegi cant do nothing back but to shield up
-Mega bunny kills him 4 times in shield stance and over 10 on blade forme

The list goes on but im standing on a bus typing on my cellphone which is quite uncomfortable. I am for now all in to see him get back to OU.
 

Thisbemyalt

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I just don't think Aegi is any less broken than he was when we first banned him tbh. Fact is the meta has only changed to the favor of aegislash as it walls/beats many of the best mons in the tier. Most notable being mega altaria, mega meta, and most Lopunny sets. Aegi is an answer to many offensive threats however that has a lot to do with why it was banned in the first place, it forces 50/50s. I don't really see how someone could justify Aegi being a mon healthy for the meta when it it turns any play its involved in into a coin flip. I have already started laddering and will hopefully see my way to reqs through a busy few weeks but I am already confident that my opinion will not change from what it was in XY, this mon is simply unhealthy.
 
Aegislash very much cares about Burn because it will slowly kill it, making checking threats harder because it cannot keep itself alive (especially if it's not running Leftovers). Losing the ability to hit things meaningfully on the physical side make it much easier for a Ghost resist/special tank to switch into it. Paralysis only matters if it get paralyzed trying to hit something with Shadow Sneak or block a move with King's Shield, but that's more of a hax issue.
Yes but the point is whether it outright cripples him from performing his role no doubt status effects aren't welcome but they won't outright cripple him or make him redundant the way certain mons would be if they were burned or paralyzed, at the very least it is more forgiving on Aegis end since he isn't reliant on being a physical attacker nor necessarily hampered by a reduced speed.

As for the loss of HP or chance to not move of course those aren't appreciated but again the point is whether it cripples him out of his role, in which case arguably it does not. It simply does not outright neuter him, simply inconvenience or slow him down.
 
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Voltage

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I wouldn't exactly say Mega Lopunny beats it pretty well, as King's Shield can turn High Jump Kick into a severe liability, not only because the recoil of not directly hitting the intended target, but also because of King's Shield's Attack dropping effect.
I guess I mean when I say that, it's kind of like it's pretty much the only physical fighting type that can even remotely touch it. While Lop does fear KingShield, it can handle the otherwise awful type matchup thanks to Scrappy. Though, you're right, I should've worded that better.
 
I guess I mean when I say that, it's kind of like it's pretty much the only physical fighting type that can even remotely touch it. While Lop does fear KingShield, it can handle the otherwise awful type matchup thanks to Scrappy. Though, you're right, I should've worded that better.
Are you forgetting Diggersby XD Well more or less Diggers and Lop are on the same boat for checks.
 
Are you forgetting Diggersby XD Well more or less Diggers and Lop are on the same boat for checks.
They both have a good chance of losing to variants running Sacred Sword, though. In fact, from the few matches I've seen on the suspect ladder so far that actually involved Aegi, Sacred Sword may be one of its best moves (at least for offensive variants) for this meta, since it does pretty well against many things attempting to check or counter it.
 
Actually Sub Encore Lopunny uses Aegi as setup fodder.

Regarding this suspect, my feelings are pretty mixed. On one hand, the current meta is spead far too thinly with so many dangerous threats with select counters to the point where matchup means everything and Aegi solves this. On the other hand, Aegislash will to a certain extent centralise the meta around him like last time. So far I am enjoying the suspect ladder far more than regular ORAS, contrary to most of the things people say on here, Aegislash isnt invincible and while its undeniably good, its hardly broken and bringing it back is what I believe to be one step closer to a better meta. Say what you want about 50/50s and all that other crap but really this suspect is about the meta we want to play in and I'd rather play in one less determined by matchup.

To the people saying Lando-I will be an even bigger problem with Aegi back I just want to point something out. Landorus is borderline Uber as is, if its deemed broken afterwards then itll be banned, Aegislash shouldnt be copped out because you want something even worse than it to stay OU.
 
They both have a good chance of losing to variants running Sacred Sword, though. In fact, from the few matches I've seen on the suspect ladder so far that actually involved Aegi, Sacred Sword may be one of its best moves (at least for offensive variants) for this meta, since it does pretty well against many things attempting to check or counter it.
Context of the post was saying MLop was the only good physical match up against Aegis, when Diggersby is also an option (albeit an old one), otherwise yes they are both reliant on proper prediction. A lot of caution will still be necessary, which some people are disregarding since he can hit either with Secret Sword on the Switch or Flash canon still leaves quite a dent (if it gets behind a sub well ya know).
 
Actually Sub Encore Lopunny uses Aegi as setup fodder.

Regarding this suspect, my feelings are pretty mixed. On one hand, the current meta is spead far too thinly with so many dangerous threats with select counters to the point where matchup means everything and Aegi solves this. On the other hand, Aegislash will to a certain extent centralise the meta around him like last time. So far I am enjoying the suspect ladder far more than regular ORAS, contrary to most of the things people say on here, Aegislash isnt invincible and while its undeniably good, its hardly broken and bringing it back is what I believe to be one step closer to a better meta. Say what you want about 50/50s and all that other crap but really this suspect is about the meta we want to play in and I'd rather play in one less determined by matchup.

To the people saying Lando-I will be an even bigger problem with Aegi back I just want to point something out. Landorus is borderline Uber as is, if its deemed broken afterwards then itll be banned, Aegislash shouldnt be copped out because you want something even worse than it to stay OU.
What else is sub encore Lopunny useful against? If it must use subpar moves just to beat Aegi then we have a problem (and yes, sub and encore were never used before Aegi showed up)
 

AM

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Yeah I'd argue that Lopunny is actually even better than it was now because of Aegislash's presence, and it was already a strong threat to begin with but the fact most legitimate Lopunny answers are Aegislash prone is just one factor in why I think Aegislash isn't healthy from a support standpoint. It's only been a handful of matches I've played with Aegislash implemented on different builds but it just comes back to myself seeing that it just enhances stuff to a much higher degree than I would think is healthy.
 
What else is sub encore Lopunny useful against? If it must use subpar moves just to beat Aegi then we have a problem (and yes, sub and encore were never used before Aegi showed up)
idk what game youve been playing but sub encore was always a set lopunny used. Heck, you could use encore + PuP as well and be given a sweep opportunity.
 
I am truely thankful that we are finally doing this retest.

Now to actually give reasoning why aegislash should be brought back into the tier.. for starters, why was aegislash banned?

Forcing 50/50 situations

Overcentralization, being a blanket check to the entire tier

Having no true counters or hard checks that could reliably switch in

I'm going to narrow down exactly whether or not any of these describe aegislash specifically, cause there is ALOT of bias with these claims from both sides, anti-ban and pro-ban alike.

For Starters, what is a 50/50 situation? Basicly, it's a coinflip.. you either choose move a, or move b, if you choose the wrong one, the opposing player gets an advantage and can cost you the game. If the correct move is chosen, the opposing player could suffer extreme consequences. Does aegislash cause 50/50s? No, infact the 50/50 argument is very stretched for and overdramatized. The move king's shield halves your attack if you use a contact move on it.. however the only time the player is using a contact move is when they're spamming knock off (which the most viable user with it OHKO's and has defiant to ignore the drop), or they're going for a move like waterfall/aqua jet from azumarill (who shouldn't stay in regardless)... other times it's flare blitz or the like from zard or something, which aegislash is never to be up against 1v1 anyway. These 50/50s are incredible rare since most pokemon will only be spamming hard hitting EQs, and special attacks on aegislash for the most part. 50/50s are also in the metagame whether we like it or not.. we have 50/50s everytime we do double switches, even the move sucker punch has just as much mindgame playing and prediction as king's shield.. both only work if you attack, both give setup and status oppertunties, and both put pressure on the player forcing them to choose between move a, move b, switch, or stay in. Likewise, pursuit can see a similar function, stay in and attack, switch out and risk pursuit.. or on the user's side.. go for another attack thinking they won't switch, or predict the switch and actually pursuit.

This "50/50s" are present in the metagame all the time. Aegislash is just a lesser evil of the 50/50 situations, however, I do not believe it is frequent enough to justify him staying out of the tier. Especially when it's more skill based and the player actually has to predict, rather than RNG skillhax like serene grace or flinching that is in neither player's control (looking at jirachi and togekiss).

Is Aegislash overcentralizing? This is a difficult one to answer.. actually the metagame hasn't changed, THAT much since his ban. Gardevoir is still mediocre, M-medicham went to BL without him anyway, same with heracross.. the three pokemon we wanted to remove aegislash for so they can shine. Gallade is the biggest reason medicham dropped.. but even he is starting to see his days now that the hype died down. So the question is, what exactly would lose viability, that didn't already? The only pokemon worthy of this argument is altaria, metagross, diancie, and starmie since everything else is mediocre to begin with or benefit from aegislash's synergy on the team. Aegislash cannot switch into analytic starmie anyway, not to mention scald makes aegislash a very shakey choice to spinblock starmie. I do feel the star would still be alright in the metagame. Metagross and altaria certainly will have a huge issue with aegislash, but to be fair, when something is reintroduced into the tier, it's only what you can expect.. one or more things to be checked or countered by the new addition. Diancie is a bit of a shakey one.. aegislash can't switch into earthpower, and diancie checks the stall aegislash set if it lacks flash cannon.. which it then has mediocre coverage.

One thing people wanted when they banned aegislash, was versatility in the tier... but tbh, higher on the ladder, teams are just lando+keldeo+metagross anyway.. I hardly see any versatility unless they're gimmicks. HO teams look very similar, stall teams look similar, and balance teams pretty much use the same pokemon but try them out in a different way. Even with the introduction of aegislash, lando will still be dominate, and keldeo will still rip teams apart... only metagross will be hurt by his presence.

Does Aegislash have counters? Hippowdon. That's honestly the only one. However with the power creep being such an issue, I don't think checking or RKing aegislash is that difficult.. the majority of the time he is taking chip damage, and with garchomp, lando(t+I), keldeo, sableye, list goes on, being so commonly seen on teams, I doubt aegislash will have many opportunities to cause teams problems. Switching aegislash into anything is going to still force him to take chip damage without recovery. To say the least, it's fairly underwhelming against this gen's power creep. Ghost/steel seems like good typing, but fire, dark, ghost, and ground are some of the most common offensive typings used in OU right now, that his bulk becomes mediocre.


I think the question we ask ourselves is, how much the metagame really change from the first aegislash one? I know a lot of people here will vote ban just because they do not want to shake up the tier again in it's current state, but realistically, it's time we do so as this current meta is staler than any over centralized one I've experienced so far. It's our choice, do we want to keep things the way they are, or do we want to actually shake up a metagame we've being playing the same state? Is aegislash's overcentralization, if there is one, any more stale then what we're experiencing with lando, metagross, keldeo, and sableye right now?

Personally, I think he should be unbanned.
 

DarkNostalgia

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I'm all for trying out Aegislash, since I joined after it was banned (also thank you aim for leaking the suspect test on twitter lol), but my problem with it is the overcentralization argument many people have already brought up. Suddenly things like Mega Gallade, Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross will become much less viable. Also, Aegislash has the tools to get around many of its checks and counters. It adapts to them. Mandibuzz? Jolly SD Head Smash deals with that. Pursuit Bisharp? Jolly Sacred Sword.
I'll hop on the ladder when I can and make a longer post about my opinion.
 
Also, Aegislash has the tools to get around many of its checks and counters. It adapts to them. Mandibuzz? Jolly SD Head Smash deals with that. Pursuit Bisharp? Jolly Sacred Sword.
I'll hop on the ladder when I can and make a longer post about my opinion.
To be honest, those sets don't work in this meta as well as they did last time. Headsmash was always seen as gimmicky, it basicly made aegislash kill itself, and once he attacks, he didn't run KS.. leaving prone to RK, also mandi can just foul play the SD, or stall the HS with roost and let aegi kill himself. Jolly Sacred sword isn't that great since now bisharp runs max speed to handle altaria anyway.
 
Aegislash is quite an interesting case. Personally, I would have liked to see a Landorus-I suspect test before this, but that's besides the point.

Aegislash itself has a numerous amount perks that lead me to believe its broken at first glance. Thanks to its fantastic typing, which is beautifully complemented by its pseudo 720 base stat total, it is able to soft check 3/4s of the entire metagame while also being immune to toxic and being able to spinblock. This is on top of being able to run a multitude of different sets such as LO SD, Tank, SubToxic, The Crumbler, and Autotomize, each of which has numerous options to utilize depending on the team. Not only this, but Aegislash is able to provide an immense amount of utility to any team thanks to its ability to spinblock as well as its access to Pursuit and Shadow Sneak. Pursuit and shadow Sneak it particular make aegislash an excellent response to nearly every Psychic type in the tier and its arguably the best pursuit trapper in the tier because of its god like typing. Not only does it have excellent supportive aspects, but a numerous amount of excellent offensive aspects as well. Shadow Ball has excellent coverage and can 2HKO nearly the entire if Aegislash is equipped with a Life Orb and what few switch-ins the move has are slaughtered by one of Aegislash's many coverage moves (Flash Cannon, HP Ice, and Sacred Sword to name a few). This powerful Ghost coverage is coupled with Priority and two boosting moves, making Aegislash an incredibly formidable offensive threat on top on being a ridiculous supportive threat.

Oh, and thanks to King's Shield, Aegislash is able to create 50 / 50 scenarios vs a multitude of physical attackers, particularly Tyranitar, Charizard X, and Mega Gallade, while also easing prediction against a numerous amount of Pokemon utilizing a Choice item.

Conclusion:
 
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