np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Genie in a bottle

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silver97

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got reqs and eventually reached a decision about my vote.
As i said in my previous post, while extremely powerful, lando is not in my opinion really centralizing or restrictive in teambuilding, there are ways to play around it even if it almost doesn't have counters; however i think that its ban could bring some positive effects on the metagame: balanced cores which are the basis of the overall most reliable playstyle are now more solid and easy to build, this should give hopefully more stability to the meta. We still have ways to beat said cores tho, like neglected threats like kyu-b gaining usage even if they are way less "broken" and easier to handle than lando. To solve the matchup issue (which will never be solved completely obviously but can be mitigated) we should start somewhere anyway, banning lando is a step towards this goal imo, therefore i'm voting ban.
 
I'd like to pose a question to the anti-ban side. What reasons are there that are in-arguable that lando-i should stay in the tier? If your first thought is "because it's just not broken" and not a specific reason then it just shows that there is a lack of any strong reason as to why lando-i is not broken or unhealthy for the tier. The only arguments I have seen that fit this description are that it can get revenge killed/checked by a lot and can't run everything on one set giving it a few decent set specific counters or hard checks if you will. Meanwhile the pro-ban side's answer to it's version of this question has more responses such as that lando-i has only two counters the are either playstyle specific or cost a mega slot, it is a step above breakers that are already difficult to handle, you agreed to lando having little counter-play so that can fit here as well, it has the ability to destroy two of the three major playstyles, and it's extremely versatile which makes it so you require different checks to successfully cover them all putting a bit of strain on teambuilding in the process. See the problem I'm seeing with this is a majority of the things brought up by the anti-ban side are just counter arguments to these points while not actually proving their own points to be countered by the pro-ban side. Can you guess why this is? It's because there really are no strong reasons as to keep lando in this tier so the arguments are forced at attempting to disprove the pro-bans arguments. The pro-ban side has some strong evidence pointing to lando-i being broken in the tier while the anti-ban side has none of their own and is really just saying "but... but..." in an attempt to find some ground in the discussion. Hell your argument to that statement will probably be something along the lines of "but you fail to mention this, this, and this" proving my point further. Due to all of this and all my specific points about lando-i in the previous posts I find there to be no reason as to why lando-i is not broken and doesn't deserve to receive the ban hammer.


Traditionally when one is making an argument, whether it be an informal one or in a court of law, the prosecutor, or in this case the pro-ban side, is the one who needs to make the good argument. The default position is that there is no ban, because that's how the metagame originally was, so the burden of proof is on your side. The anti-ban side has to diminish the value and relevance of pro-ban arguments, but does not need to create its own arguments as to why Landorus should stay.
 

AM

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Lol this isn't a court of law it's a community created suspect test over a pixelated monster. Let's not act all so serious as if this was some sort of legitimate legal case.
The anti-ban side has to diminish the value and relevance of pro-ban arguments, but does not need to create its own arguments as to why Landorus should stay.
?_?

They need to make arguments why it should be allowed in the tier, as in staying in the tier. So no, not one side is devoid of a certain criteria of debating simply for some preconceived notion that said side doesn't need to engage in legitimate counter arguments. Debating is a two way thing, both sides need to create arguments.
 
I'm surprised that not a lot of people have brought this up, but Landorus-Incarnate is also somewhat reliant on its item, as a lot of its power comes from Sheer Force + Life orb. If you were to knock off its item, most of its coverage moves and its two STABs lose ~70% of their power. With knock off spam being prevalent in the form of Scarf Landorus-T, Mega Gallade, Banded Scizor, Bisharp (doesn't really want to stay in on an earth power, though), and several other threats, any one of them can cripple Landorus-Incarnate and strip it of most of its power. I'm not really inserting an argument here, but it's just food for thought, and fuel for the arguments.

Another thing to go along with this is that Mega Gallade and Scarf Landorus-T do more than only check Landorus-Incarnate and are employed by balance teams. While on the defensive side, Mandibuzz and Gliscor (Specially defensive Gliscor can survive an HP Ice; 252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 291-343 (82.6 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal), plus, Knock off is just a good move in general, so there isn't usually a lot of opportunity cost in using it.
 
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Mur

If you're not first you're last
I'm sorry but there are so many things that you said in your post that are just horrifically unacceptable to read, even if we are both pro-ban.



Let's all get on the tournament player bandwagon! Choo choo!! Whether or not "tournament players" think Manaphy deserves a suspect has literally zero to do with anything, period. Using support for a Manaphy suspect among a handful of arbitrary users to justify banning Landorus is just not a precedent I can vote alongside in good conscience. Landorus should go because Landorus as traits which make it separate from other healthy & balanced offensive pokemon that, together, make it too potent for OU.



Once again, we are banning Landorus because Landorus is a broken pokemon as per all the reasons pro-ban has stated in this thread, myself included. If it wasn't broken, we wouldn't be banning it. Your entire statement doesn't make sense because if anti-ban actually could prove Landorus wasn't broken, why are we banning it? Just because? Despite being on opposite sides I totally agree with ABR , it is the responsibility of the playerbase to adapt to more offensive threats in the metagame and teambuild accordingly. I just happen to think Landorus is an exception to that rule. The best line in your entire post was that Landorus is "a step above the other breakers", which sums up what pro-ban's general point is/should be.
You're right whatever the thoughts on manaphy are don't affect what happens to lando. The part where you're wrong is assuming I'm making a main argument with this statement. I'm not trying to go all out and use that as a main argument as to back up why lando should be banned, it was merely a comment to the gentlemen I was having a debate with since he said that lando is only better than manaphy by a small margin. By no means was I screaming "LOL manaphy is suspect worthy and lando-i is better so ban it!!"
I have no idea what you're trying to say though when you say "again we are banning lando because it's a broken pokemon like the pro-ban side has stated" when in that entire post did I say we are banning lando for no reason? Also did you even read the rest of the post or my previous two? I have no idea where you got this idea that I want lando-i banned "just because" and go as far to cherry pick two parts of my post without even acknowledging the rest of it or the previous posts where I talk a lot about how lando is a low risk/high reward mon and has little counter-play on slower teams which makes it broken. I honestly have no idea what provoked you to attack me for no reason and go as far as to say my arguments are "horrifically unacceptable to read" and that I had only one good line in that whole post which you clearly didn't read if that is all you got from it. Like wtf do you not want me to talk about how lando bodies 2/3 major playstyles, how it lacks acceptable counter-play, or centralizes the tier? Are those arguments "horrific to read" as well? I'm not exactly sure what your reasoning is for attacking me since you clearly decided to only pick out one comment I made responding to something another individual was talking to me about(the manaphy thing) and then blindly stating that I think we are banning lando because there is no reason to as if I have no idea what I'm talking about? Maybe you should actually read the main arguments of my posts instead of trying to put me down for cherry picking only the bottom half of one post.
 

Gimmick

Electric potential
Traditionally when one is making an argument, whether it be an informal one or in a court of law, the prosecutor, or in this case the pro-ban side, is the one who needs to make the good argument. The default position is that there is no ban, because that's how the metagame originally was, so the burden of proof is on your side. The anti-ban side has to diminish the value and relevance of pro-ban arguments, but does not need to create its own arguments as to why Landorus should stay.
I've watched Legally Blonde twice and How to Get Away With Murder so I'm well versed in the field of law practice and it seems to me that many of the prosecutors defended their clients from accusations made from the anti-ban/not-guilty. So network television proves you wrong. (But in actuality, AM is right here. This is a suspect test. If the anti-ban side had to wait for the pro-ban side to make an argument before even suggesting that Landorus-I should stay in OU, it would be a really passive thread. From reading this thread, it actually seems like the anti-ban side makes posts that get debunked and taken apart by facts from the pro-ban side).

I'm surprised that not a lot of people have brought this up, but Landorus-Incarnate is also somewhat reliant on its item, as a lot of its power comes from Sheer Force + Life orb. If you were to knock off its item, most of its coverage moves and its two STABs lose ~70% of their power. With knock off spam being prevalent in the form of Scarf Landorus-T, Mega Gallade, Banded Scizor, Bisharp (doesn't really want to stay in on an earth power, though), and several other threats, any one of them can cripple Landorus-Incarnate and strip it of most of its power. I'm not really inserting an argument here, but it's just food for thought, and fuel for the arguments.
1.) 70% of its power lost is, well, just kind of untrue:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 230-270 (56.9 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

70% of 66.8% is ~47%. Subtract 47 from 66.8 and you get 19.8%. Thus, losing 70% of its power means that without LO, it would only deal 19.8% max, which as you can see, is also untrue. Besides, the definition of what Life Orb does tells you that you gain 30% of your power. I seriously hope someone didn't read that and then mindlessly see that losing LO makes you lose a whopping 70% of your power. Sheer Force is still in effect when your Life Orb is gone. Also, two STABs? HP Flying and Fly are the only two Flying type moves it learns (lol I never knew that until I looked it up).

2.) Anything will hit less hard after it loses it power-boosting item; I thought that was a given. And everything but Mega Pokemon can get Knocked Off, so I'm not really following your point. If Latios' Life Orb gets Knocked Off, yeah it'll do less damage too. You may as well say that everything with a Life Orb is crippled by Knock Off.
 
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I've watched Legally Blonde twice and How to Get Away With Murder so I'm well versed in the field of law practice and it seems to me that many of the prosecutors defended their clients from accusations made from the anti-ban/not-guilty. So network television proves you wrong. (But in actuality, AM is right here. This is a suspect test. If the anti-ban side had to wait for the pro-ban side to make an argument before even suggesting that Landorus-I should stay in OU, it would be a really passive thread. From reading this thread, it actually seems like the anti-ban side makes posts that get debunked and taken apart by facts from the pro-ban side).


1.) 70% of its power lost is, well, just kind of untrue:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 230-270 (56.9 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

70% of 66.8% is ~47%. Subtract 47 from 66.8 and you get 19.8%. Thus, losing 70% of its power means that without LO, it would only deal 19.8% max, which as you can see, is also untrue. Besides, the definition of what Life Orb does tells you that you'd only lose 30% of your power. I seriously hope someone didn't read that and then mindlessly see that losing LO makes you lose a whopping 70% of your power. Sheer Force is still in effect when your Life Orb is gone. Also, two STABs? HP Flying and Fly are the only two Flying type moves it learns (lol I never knew that until I looked it up).

2.) Anything will hit less hard after it loses it power-boosting item; I thought that was a given. And everything but Mega Pokemon can get Knocked Off, so I'm not really following your point. If Latios' Life Orb gets Knocked Off, yeah it'll do less damage too. You may as well say that everything with a Life Orb is crippled by Knock Off.
That was a typo. I meant to write ~40%. I should go back and fix that. Same thing with the two STABs part.

The main point I was trying to make was that most of its power comes from life orb and sheer force stacking.

(1.3 x 1.3=1.69)

When you lose one of the 30% boosts, you're only doing 1.3 times the damage that you would have without sheer force or life orb, as 1.69-1.3= .39

So in essence, knocking off the life orb causes a notable decrease in Landorus-Incarnate's wall breaking ability.
 
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Thanks to a decent speed that allows him to outspeed many of the threats in the meta such as the base 100 Charizard, M-Gardevoir, Manaphy or others like Kyurem-Black, Altaria etc, combined to its dreadful Fire Power due to the Sheer Force+Life Orb combo(which makes it takin no orb recoil for moves with secondary effects), I strongly believe that Landorus-I deserves the ban, let me explain why:
As already mentioned, the combination of Sheer Force+Life Orb and his amazing deep Move-Pool, make Landorus-I extremely broken, as it cannot be countered (except for M-Latias and Cresselia, which is absolutely not viable in the tier except in full Stalls, where it is used mainly to contain the Koff/CM Landorus' set, which gives stall itself tremendous troubles) as potentially everything is 2HKOed by one of two of his most viables moves;
For exemple, I'm showing you right below how Landorus' most common checks can lose to other sets, all of them pretty much viable (no gimmicks & stuff) makin this pokemon ban worthy.

vs AV Tornadus-Therian:
4 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 268-317 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

vs SpDef Skarmory:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 183-216 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

vs SpDef Talonflame:
4 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 588-697 (163.7 - 194.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs SpDef Zapdos:
4 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 255-302 (66.5 - 78.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

vs AV Slowking:
4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 208-247 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

With his decent bulk (89 / 90 / 80), Landorus can also easily set up on a lot of the current meta, both Calm Mind or Rock Polish variants can easily beat some of his most common revengekillers, like Keldeo and Thundurus, or more simply is able to either outspeed & OHKO or eat up hits (after 1 or 2 Calm Mind), from all the fast offensive threats in the tier like the 110s M-Metagross, M-Diancie or even faster such as Alakazam, M-Lopunny, M-Manectric, Raikou and Serperior.
So, considering all the points above-listed, I strongly believe Landorus-I to be just a kinda of broken pokemon, capable of destroying most of playstyles thanks to its previous mentioned Fire Power and his vast Move-Pool, and therefore in my opinion it definitely deserves the ban.
 
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Vote = Ban. Landorus-I is extremely powerful, and is extremely over centralizing. With high stats in both Attack and Spa, as well as excellent special and physical coverage, Landorus is almost as hard to switch into as Greninja was. It's best checks (Lati twins) are hit hard by knock off, which is run on mixed sets often, and are easily pursuit trapped by t-tar and bisharp, two pokemon commonly teamed up with Lando. Chansey and Blissey are taken out with knock off/superpower, and other landorus and landorus T are taken out with hp ice. The rock polish set allows it to outspeed things that would normally revenge kill it such as Keldeo or Gengar. It also has access to rock slide, which even without investment 2HKOs a max def zapdos after rocks damage, and straight up knocks out Charizard Y. The versatility of this pokemon allows it to beat almost every pokemon slower than it, and any pokemon looking to revenge kill it has to wait to come in safely. Landorus Is too much of a threat in this metagame, and the OU Tier would be much better off without it.
 
Thanks to a decent speed that allows him to outspeed many of the threats in the meta such as the base 100 Charizard, M-Gardevoir, Manaphy or others like Kyurem-Black, Altaria etc, combined to its dreadful Fire Power due to the Sheer Force+Life Orb combo(which makes it takin no orb recoil for moves with secondary effects), I strongly believe that Landorus-I deserves the ban, let me explain why:
As already mentioned, the combination of Sheer Force+Life Orb and his amazing deep Move-Pool, make Landorus-I extremely broken, as it cannot be countered (except for M-Latias and Cresselia, which is absolutely not viable in the tier except in full Stalls, where it is used mainly to contain the Koff/CM Landorus' set, which gives stall itself tremendous troubles) as potentially everything is 2HKOed by one of two of his most viables moves;
For exemple, I'm showing you right below how Landorus' most common checks can lose to other sets, all of them pretty much viable (no gimmicks & stuff) makin this pokemon ban worthy.

vs AV Tornadus-Therian:
  • 4 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 268-317 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
vs SpDef Skarmory:
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 183-216 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
vs SpDef Talonflame:
  • 4 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 588-697 (163.7 - 194.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs Zapdos:
  • 4 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 192-229 (50 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
vs AV Slowking:
  • 4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

  • 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 208-247 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
With his decent bulk (89 / 90 / 80), Landorus can also easily set up on a lot of the current meta, both calm mind or rock polish variants can easily beat some of his most common revengekillers, like Keldeo and Thundurus, or more simply is able to either outspeed & OHKO or eat up hits (after 1 or 2 calm mind), from all the fast offensive threats in the tier like the 110s M-Metagross, M-Diancie or even faster such as Alakazam, M-Lopunny, M-Manectric, Raikou and Serperior.
So, considering all the points above-listed i strongly believe Landorus-I to be just a kinda of broken pokemon, capable of destroying most of playstyles thanks to its previous mentioned Fire Power and his vast Move-Pool, and therefore in my opinion it definitely deserves the ban.
Surprise surprise! You can OHKO talonflame with a rock move!

I'm just joking. I'm not trying to be rude or anything.

The other thing is that you're also dismissing the offensive capabilities of the opposing Pokemon in question.

164+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP/ 0- SpD Landorus: 300-354 (94-110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

68 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP/ 0- SpD Landorus: 296-352 (92.7% - 110.3%) -- 62.5% Chance to OHKO

(with stealth rock, both are guaranteed)

With it having 101 base speed, it's not too difficult to bring in Slowking or Zapdos with a slower U-Turn.
If it happens to switch out, then the switch in risks being burned by scald or Zapdos can just Volt Switch out of the new match up, which could cause the team using the landorus-i to lose momentum.
 
Surprise surprise! You can OHKO talonflame with a rock move!

I'm just joking. I'm not trying to be rude or anything.

The other thing is that you're also dismissing the offensive capabilities of the opposing Pokemon in question.

164+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP/ 0- SpD Landorus: 300-354 (94-110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

68 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP/ 0- SpD Landorus: 296-352 (92.7% - 110.3%) -- 62.5% Chance to OHKO

(with stealth rock, both are guaranteed)

With it having 101 base speed, it's not too difficult to bring in Slowking or Zapdos with a slower U-Turn.
If it happens to switch out, then the switch in risks being burned by scald or Zapdos can just Volt Switch out of the new match up, which could cause the team using the landorus-i to lose momentum.
We are talking about what switches into landorus-i, not what can force it out in a 1v1 scenario. Who stays in with landorus against a slowking? No one. And the calcs I provided show us how even common lando switchins get melted and 2hko'd from his different coverage moves.
 
We are talking about what switches into landorus-i, not what can force it out in a 1v1 scenario. Who stays in with landorus against a slowking? No one. And the calcs I provided show us how even common lando switchins get melted and 2hko'd from his different coverage moves.
Actually, no. Your calcs prove that nothing can directly switch into landorus and get in an attack before without dying (which is more likely than not a OHKO with the calcs I provided) you can pivot into it with Slowking or Zapdos.

Recall that Slowking has regenerator and can switch back out to recover most of the HP lost, and being 2HKOed means you can still attack once provided that you were already in.
 

Merritt

no comment
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That was a typo. I meant to write ~40%. I should go back and fix that. Same thing with the two STABs part.

The main point I was trying to make was that most of its power comes from life orb and sheer force stacking.

(1.3 x 1.3=1.69)

When you lose one of the 30% boosts, you're only doing 1.3 times the damage that you would have without sheer force or life orb, as 1.69-1.3= .39

So in essence, knocking off the life orb causes a notable decrease in Landorus-Incarnate's wall breaking ability.
Hide is a note, nothing else in here applies to your posts.

Hi, quick math thing, you're doing it wrong. The best (and by far easiest) way to look at it is by assuming that Sheer Force and Move are a package deal, not that Sheer Force is a variable multiplier. Unless you're running something like Gastro Acid it's safe to assume Lando's going to be hitting with Sheer Force.

So this end up being a thing where you have 100% damage being increased by the approximately 30% more of Life Orb. This gives you a new damage of "130%" to use. When you remove LO then you're back to normal 100% damage. This is a simple ratio problem to figure out the new percentage of damage you do – 100%/130% = X%/100% where you solve for the X. It comes out to 76.92%, if you don't want to do it out yourself, and from there it's just 100-76.92 to figure out the percentage of power "lost" from lack of Life Orb. It's 23% less power to Landorus' moves. While it seems like this is very counterintuitive, since you're adding 30% with Life Orb, it's because language is very weird, since you work from a base of 100% both when you add and when you subtract.

In conclusion, it's a noticeable decrease by any measure. Lando's now working at 77% of full power, and so has a harder time breaking. However it's still powerful, and although it loses some wallbreaking power it still has the equivalent of a LO attached to its 115 base SpA already.

Incidentally this math works for all mons who lose LO if you want to do on the fly approximations of how much damage you'll take/do next turn.


So this isn't all just MATH here's my opinion. Landorus is obscenely powerful, and it's never let me down in a battle. Except in situations where the opponent seized control and got to wrecking Landorus always pulls its weight. By adding it to my teams it instantly covers so much of the metagame, alone almost covering stall entirely. It doesn't fit on every team, which is why it's not overly centralizing, but on teams it works with it's a valuable member. While this certainly makes teambuilding easy and I'd miss it, that's not healthy for teambuilding.

Possibly the biggest thing about Landorus against competent players who aren't running HO is how Landorus influences their playing in a way that's entirely beneficial for me, even when Lando never comes out to play. They must preserve their Landorus check/counter, it can't come out early and get slammed. This makes 50/50-esque situations much easier, since they have to prioritize keeping their Landorus check alive. Their Latios that could counter my current mon can't come out, because if it dies Landorus could run through them. Counters to the set I'm running, like SpDef Zapdos on my non-Rock Slide, can't come out because Landorus might be running it and suddenly their answer is dead and they lose. This makes my job as a player easier with no cost.

Landorus has the power, it has sufficient bulk to take weaker neutral hits (its bulk isn't spectacular but it's more than good for a mon with this much power), and its speed tier is still really good. Sure, 101 and 102 aren't the insanely great stats that they were last gen and the one before, but they still outspeed the majority of the metagame, even before factoring Rock Polish.

Lando reminds me a little of Mega Lucario actually, with insane power, great boosting options, a variety of very viable sets, and crazy coverage. Mega Lucario and Landorus-I obviously aren't perfect comparisons, but I feel like that's the banned mon Lando is closest to.
 
That was a typo. I meant to write ~40%. I should go back and fix that. Same thing with the two STABs part.

The main point I was trying to make was that most of its power comes from life orb and sheer force stacking.

(1.3 x 1.3=1.69)

When you lose one of the 30% boosts, you're only doing 1.3 times the damage that you would have without sheer force or life orb, as 1.69-1.3= .39

So in essence, knocking off the life orb causes a notable decrease in Landorus-Incarnate's wall breaking ability.
I don't find this idea that landorus relying so much on life orb makes a strong argument towards it being healthy in the metagame. I recall this argument being similarly made during the greninja suspect (greninja relies on life orb and gets worn down in the process, therefore it is certainly managable). However, I don't know of any decent players who would have their Lando-I stay in and take a knock off or switch in on mons that commonly carry knock off. And also I would think it pretty obvious that why landorus is so powerful is because of life orb and sheer force stacking, I mean that's kinda the point that people address is one of the problems it has, mainly that it is simply too powerful, combined with resilience and the ability to tailor its moves to wreck nearly any check to it. Essentially when landorus gets a safe switch in (which isn't very hard at all) something is going to die or at least in the case of a very defensive answer, heavily damaged or crippled. I don't know who would switch in on a knock off or let their landorus' s lo get knocked off, not too mention that it is certainly not deadweight when it loses its lo and still hits hard as hell, especially when the landorus users typically makes use of landorus' s ability to punish switch ins with how hard it hits with its moves not only courtesy of lo+sheer force, but the excellent coverage it gets in earth power+ sludge wave, focus blast, knock off, etc. that does well in punishing special sponges.
 

Always!

WAGESLAVE
is a Tiering Contributor
The idea of Landorus losing its Life Orb and then suddenly being significantly easier to handle is somewhat true, if only one could actually make it lose its Life Orb. Currently, as Magis4Life said, no competent Landorus player would stay in or let it take a Knock Off before it has accomplished its job on a team, thus that is a poor argument for it to stay. It was further expounded on that Landorus is being suspected with the Life Orb attached, as no one would use it without an LO to create such a monstrosity. Furthermore, this is a list of all Pokemon that can learn/utilize Knock Off in OU/BL/UU:

Absol, Alakazam, Azelf, Azumarill, Beedrill, Bisharp, Clefable, Conkeldurr, Crawdaunt, Diggersby, Donphan, Empoleon, Ferrothorn, Gallade-Mega, Gengar, Gligar, Gliscor, Heracross, Krookodile, Landorus, Machamp, Mamoswine, Manaphy, Mandibuzz, Mew, Mienshao, Pinsir-Mega, Sableye, Scizor, Serperior, Smeargle, Tentacruel, Thundurus, Tornadus-Therian, Toxicroak, Venusaur, Weavile, Whimsicott


Notice how a good portion of this group either has better options to hit Landorus with, or is simply flat out destroyed anyways. The ones that can check it also get totalled by Landorus's coverage moves, so they have to find a way to actually get a switch in on Landorus without having one of their teammates KOed/severely crippled.

In my opinion, discussing Landorus without Life Orb seems like a large waste of time when you're already hard pressed to make it lose the item in the first place, coupled with the fact that this suspect test is assuming you're running Life Orb anyways...
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Lol this isn't a court of law it's a community created suspect test over a pixelated monster. Let's not act all so serious as if this was some sort of legitimate legal case.
?_?

They need to make arguments why it should be allowed in the tier, as in staying in the tier. So no, not one side is devoid of a certain criteria of debating simply for some preconceived notion that said side doesn't need to engage in legitimate counter arguments. Debating is a two way thing, both sides need to create arguments.
What he means is that the question "Why SHOULDN'T we ban lando?" is invalid.

It "is" in the tier just because. Smogon's policy is to only ban what is necessary or whatever. Lando was never before deemed necessary.

It would be different if Smogon worked differently (ie. Arbitrary shifts or super lenient bannings... 'What does it add to the tier' (tho it showed its face in aegi test), etc.), but it doesn't.

semantics and policy, though, is irrelevent to the fact that there is no "that is wrong, because" without a preemptive "that."

The only "that": landorus is not broken, so it is allowed in OU.

There needs to then be an argument from the pro-ban side, because there is literally nothing for the anti-ban side to argue.

Really doesn't matter, but worth clarifying
 
The idea of Landorus losing its Life Orb and then suddenly being significantly easier to handle is somewhat true, if only one could actually make it lose its Life Orb. Currently, as Magis4Life said, no competent Landorus player would stay in or let it take a Knock Off before it has accomplished its job on a team, thus that is a poor argument for it to stay. It was further expounded on that Landorus is being suspected with the Life Orb attached, as no one would use it without an LO to create such a monstrosity. Furthermore, this is a list of all Pokemon that can learn/utilize Knock Off in OU/BL/UU:

Absol, Alakazam, Azelf, Azumarill, Beedrill, Bisharp, Clefable, Conkeldurr, Crawdaunt, Diggersby, Donphan, Empoleon, Ferrothorn, Gallade-Mega, Gengar, Gligar, Gliscor, Heracross, Krookodile, Landorus (at least scarfed Therian), Machamp, Mamoswine, Manaphy, Mandibuzz, Mew, Mienshao, Pinsir-Mega, Sableye, Scizor, Serperior, Smeargle, Tentacruel, Thundurus, Tornadus-Therian, Toxicroak, Venusaur, Weavile, Whimsicott


Notice how a good portion of this group either has better options to hit Landorus with, or is simply flat out destroyed anyways. The ones that can check it also get totalled by Landorus's coverage moves, so they have to find a way to actually get a switch in on Landorus without having one of their teammates KOed/severely crippled.

In my opinion, discussing Landorus without Life Orb seems like a large waste of time when you're already hard pressed to make it lose the item in the first place, coupled with the fact that this suspect test is assuming you're running Life Orb anyways...
I've bolded the things that can either outspeed Landorus and knock off its life orb, or the things that can (usually) take a hit and knock off the life orb, and have a reason to run knock off. Now, a few of these things, like Weavile, and possibly Azelf won't bother, as they can just kill it anyway with the appropriate move. Beedrill is too frail to take a hit, even after knocking off the life orb. I usually see diggersby with scarf, but it generally doesn't like to lock itself into knock off.
Now, you said that no one will let Landorus take a knock off before accomplishing its job (except for the people who call your bluff), which implies what? That they will switch out. You've forced the opponent to switch out of an unfavorable matchup and switch into either the appropriate check to one of the above, or a pivot, etc. When you do this, you cause the opponent to lose momentum, as you can play to them fleeing to avoid crippling landorus by making a switch yourself into a favorable match up, or set up (in the case of weavile, Mega Gallade, etc.) with swords dance. Now your opponent is at a disadvantage, they now have to deal with a +2 something, have to sacrifice something, and/or possibly even switch again (if you predict their switch correctly) giving you more opportunity to set up or deal chip damage.
What does this ultimately mean? The Landorus has cost you a lot of momentum and places you in jeopardy, now what?

Well, just like any wallbreaker, this risk can occur when you are forced out. Now, it was said that a pokemon should be uber if it can consistently create a disadvantageous situation by filling its role (in this case, it's wallbreaking) and is unreasonably overcentralizing, but as I just stated, it cannot consistently fill its role because it risks being defeated before it can break through something for its team.

When I built my semi-stall volt turn team, or whenever I build a team that's not HO, I do have Landorus in the back of my mind when I'm considering which pokemon to put on it; however, unlike greninja, I wasn't overly concerned about having several checks to it (crouching frog, hidden virtual duck2) as it has several checks that are B- and higher in the viability rankings. Now, outside of cresselia and Mega Latias, you're right in saying that it has no counters, but, Aegislash had counters, and it wasn't not overcentralizing. Mega Mawile had counters depending on its set, too, but that didn't stop it from being overcentralizing in XY (retest anyone?), yet, we look at the other end of the spectrum, Mega Garchomp has few counters at best (Togekiss? But Togekiss is steamrolled by stone edge, skarmory with Fire Blast, etc.) but, it's not overcentralizing. The point I'm trying to make is that having checks/counters is not proportional to being unhealthy.
 
I've bolded the things that can either outspeed Landorus and knock off its life orb, or the things that can (usually) take a hit and knock off the life orb, and have a reason to run knock off. Now, a few of these things, like Weavile, and possibly Azelf won't bother, as they can just kill it anyway with the appropriate move. Beedrill is too frail to take a hit, even after knocking off the life orb. I usually see diggersby with scarf, but it generally doesn't like to lock itself into knock off.
Now, you said that no one will let Landorus take a knock off before accomplishing its job (except for the people who call your bluff), which implies what? That they will switch out. You've forced the opponent to switch out of an unfavorable matchup and switch into either the appropriate check to one of the above, or a pivot, etc. When you do this, you cause the opponent to lose momentum, as you can play to them fleeing to avoid crippling landorus by making a switch yourself into a favorable match up, or set up (in the case of weavile, Mega Gallade, etc.) with swords dance. Now your opponent is at a disadvantage, they now have to deal with a +2 something, have to sacrifice something, and/or possibly even switch again (if you predict their switch correctly) giving you more opportunity to set up or deal chip damage.
What does this ultimately mean? The Landorus has cost you a lot of momentum and places you in jeopardy, now what?

Well, just like any wallbreaker, this risk can occur when you are forced out. Now, it was said that a pokemon should be uber if it can consistently create a disadvantageous situation by filling its role (in this case, it's wallbreaking) and is unreasonably overcentralizing, but as I just stated, it cannot consistently fill its role because it risks being defeated before it can break through something for its team.

When I built my semi-stall volt turn team, or whenever I build a team that's not HO, I do have Landorus in the back of my mind when I'm considering which pokemon to put on it; however, unlike greninja, I wasn't overly concerned about having several checks to it (crouching frog, hidden virtual duck2) as it has several checks that are B- and higher in the viability rankings. Now, outside of cresselia and Mega Latias, you're right in saying that it has no counters, but, Aegislash had counters, and it wasn't not overcentralizing. Mega Mawile had counters depending on its set, too, but that didn't stop it from being overcentralizing in XY (retest anyone?), yet, we look at the other end of the spectrum, Mega Garchomp has few counters at best (Togekiss? But Togekiss is steamrolled by stone edge, skarmory with Fire Blast, etc.) but, it's not overcentralizing. The point I'm trying to make is that having checks/counters is not proportional to being unhealthy.
I take issue with the bolded statements.

To threaten Landorus with the potential Knock Off, the KO user has to get into Landorus under circumstances that allow it to use the move before/without Landorus KOing them while he has the Life Orb. This would mean either something else fainted and they switched in for the Sac, they were brought in by Slow U-Turn and the pivot took a hit, or a fast U-Turn and they're risking the hit. And despite the utility and decent power of the move, I don't feel like Knock Off is quite as hard to switch into as a neutral attack from Landorus is. And you bring up the possibility of setting up or double switching, but that goes back to the prediction concept that has already been established to be a 2 way street. What if the Landorus player feels fighting a +2 Mega Gallade is more dangerous to them than Landorus losing his LO, so they stay in, call your response, and something gets smacked with Earth Power? Or hell, what if Landorus goes for Rock Polish on your set up turn?
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gallade: 220-261 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

He'll outspeed and you just lost your Mega, possibly your win condition at that. You can't assume the opponent is going to switch, because even ignoring the idea of predicting, they might simply think keeping Landorus in for a potential sac is their best option. Heck, it has to be considered you're risking a Pokemon as potent as SD Gallade or Scizor just for the possibility of threatening to cripple Landorus. Landorus always generates momentum by getting onto the field, and it takes some smart (and to an extent lucky) playing to get him off the field, whether that's bringing momentum back to your side or not.

In response to the last paragraph
- Aegislash's issue is that he lacked consistent counters: anything that countered one set was basically steamrolled by another, equally viable set he could run. Landorus is in a similar lane to a lesser degree, since knowing what checks him requires you to scout him and risk incurring significant damage either by luring or just by nature of the moves he can use.
- Mega Garchomp may lack defensive switch-ins, but he's plagued by other problems, such as a Fairy, Dragon, and 4x Ice weakness, lower speed tier (Landorus does get the jump on the still important Base 100's), and most notably requiring the Mega Slot, which hampers what Pokemon he can form cores with. Garchomp struggles with offensive pressure in trying to enter, and though he will kill something, he lacks tools like Landorus's boosting moves to allow him to 6-0 a team reliably.

Landorus has a low opportunity cost for having viability that equals or exceeds even the Mega Wallbreakers, which makes him ridiculously easy to put on teams and support things without requiring significant support himself.
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 226-267 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 230-270 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This thing hits harder than Gardevoir's Hyper Voice, generally considered one of the hardest mons for Stall to find switch ins to, and not only is Landorus easier to fit onto a team, but he has equal if not better coverage, the ability to boost his speed, or just annoy his checks with things like Knock Off, or even Stealth Rock/U-Turn if you want to try them.

The issue with Landorus to me is just not a lack of checks and counters. It's the fact that Landorus's level of versatility and effectiveness in what he does makes counter play an uphill battle by default. I have to make the sacrifices necessary to scout Landorus just so I can fight it on even grounds, because until I can be sure what it's running, I have to assume none of my checks will work lest I lose the one(s) that work(s) due to misreading the set, if I had effective answers in the first place. Fighting Landorus requires you to play smart and reactively just to reach the point where you could counter play it with potential prediction like you could Gengar or Keldeo or Metagross or most other Pokemon from turn 1.
 

kumiko

formerly TDK
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Four-Time Past WCoP Champion
I've bolded the things that can either outspeed Landorus and knock off its life orb, or the things that can (usually) take a hit and knock off the life orb, and have a reason to run knock off. Now, a few of these things, like Weavile, and possibly Azelf won't bother, as they can just kill it anyway with the appropriate move. Beedrill is too frail to take a hit, even after knocking off the life orb. I usually see diggersby with scarf, but it generally doesn't like to lock itself into knock off.
Now, you said that no one will let Landorus take a knock off before accomplishing its job (except for the people who call your bluff), which implies what? That they will switch out. You've forced the opponent to switch out of an unfavorable matchup and switch into either the appropriate check to one of the above, or a pivot, etc. When you do this, you cause the opponent to lose momentum, as you can play to them fleeing to avoid crippling landorus by making a switch yourself into a favorable match up, or set up (in the case of weavile, Mega Gallade, etc.) with swords dance. Now your opponent is at a disadvantage, they now have to deal with a +2 something, have to sacrifice something, and/or possibly even switch again (if you predict their switch correctly) giving you more opportunity to set up or deal chip damage.
What does this ultimately mean? The Landorus has cost you a lot of momentum and places you in jeopardy, now what?

Well, just like any wallbreaker, this risk can occur when you are forced out. Now, it was said that a pokemon should be uber if it can consistently create a disadvantageous situation by filling its role (in this case, it's wallbreaking) and is unreasonably overcentralizing, but as I just stated, it cannot consistently fill its role because it risks being defeated before it can break through something for its team.
And how, pray tell, are any of those things not named Gliscor/Tornadus-T/Mandibuzz switching in? Here's a hint: they aren't. Your point for saying if a Pokemon with Knock Off forces Landorus out is literally the same thing as Landorus getting in vs half the metagame and forcing you out and to either sac something, go to your TornT, Gliscor, or Latios, or use bad 'Mons like Mandibuzz to beat Lando. None of the 'Mons you listed will ever actually Knock Off a Lando, excluding Ferrothorn and Clefable should they lure it, because Landorus will either switch out or OHKO that 'Mon as it switches in.

And if someone is using Landorus and struggles with common answers, such as Tornadus, Weavile, etc then that's just flat out poor team building or battle execution. You listed Mega Gallade as something that'll force Landorus out, which is a really poor example. Gallade struggles to get off a Mega Evolution in the first place and, even though it survives an Earth Power after Rocks (73-86%), it'll get easily revenged or maybe they'll just have a better way to handle it than losing their Landorus.

Mega Mawile had counters depending on its set, too, but that didn't stop it from being overcentralizing in XY (retest anyone?), yet, we look at the other end of the spectrum, Mega Garchomp has few counters at best (Togekiss? But Togekiss is steamrolled by stone edge, skarmory with Fire Blast, etc.) but, it's not overcentralizing. The point I'm trying to make is that having checks/counters is not proportional to being unhealthy.
Mawile was not even close to overcentralizing, it was just ridiculously broken. It had no counters, and no, Skarmory/Heatran aren't counters. It's completely different than Mega Garchomp, Mawile has a wide diversity in sets, fits on many teams, requires no support, unlike Garchomp, and had priority. Garchomp is easily revenge killed while you were forced to sac a mon and bring in your Dark resist to kill Mawile, and then there are those Bisharp + Mawile HO Teams that wear down your Keldeo easily and punish you late game. Garchomp isn't even in the same league as Mawile, which was a completely ridiculous 'Mon.
 

Vryheid

fudge jelly
There needs to then be an argument from the pro-ban side, because there is literally nothing for the anti-ban side to argue
What a different meta ORAS might have turned out to be if these bans were based on freedom, justice, and "innocent until proven overpowered". Alas, while I appreciate your idealism, this is not and has never been a criminal court. Anyone can vote for any reason- or no reason at all- and there is absolutely no restrictions for voting beyond hitting those qualifications. If you want to change anyone's mind who wants this thing banned, you must not only argue that Landorus is not broken, but that the metagame would be better with it than without.

As far as I've seen in this thread that's a bit of a tall order.

Reasons to keep Landorus:
-After the banning of Greninja and Genesect the meta was severely lacking in a "stupid fast special attacker that can 2HKO pretty much everything in existence", Landorus picks up the slack
-Novice players deserve a way to beat down stall and balance teams too
-Who doesn't love more ground/flying types?

Reasons to ban Landorus:
-Everything else in this thread

Personally I've had a rather interesting experience laddering quite a bit on both the no mega ladder (where lando is allowed) and on an alt on the suspect ladder (where lando is banned). I would have to agree with one of the more interesting comments I've seen about no megas in that despite all common sense to the contrary, Landorus is pretty much a non-factor near the top of the ladder. This is because EVERYONE who is actually decent is running three to four checks to it. I know on my team at least I have Dragonite, Scarf Kyurem-B, Mamoswine and Cresselia, all of which reliably beat it 1v1. Even the stall teams are loaded with Mew, specially defensive Gliscor, specially defensive Clefable, and even random shit like Magnet Rise Klefki not only because they're good but because they take on Lando well. It's kind of funny, in that above something like 1300 ELO I basically stopped seeing Landorus being used, but everyone sure as hell built teams to stop it like it was the most common thing since Stealth Rock.

But in the ou suspect test? It was the most amazing thing, not having to keep my Keldeo in reserve the entire match whenever I saw Landorus in the team preview. It was such a wonderful feeling, not having to waste a huge amount of SpDef EVs on my Wash Rotom just to survive the 2HKO from Psychic. And I believe I may have shed a small tear of joy realizing that Skarmory was once again a reliable switchin to every common ground type attack.

I dunno, mate. Landorus is cool and all, but man is the meta more fun without it.
 
What he means is that the question "Why SHOULDN'T we ban lando?" is invalid.

It "is" in the tier just because. Smogon's policy is to only ban what is necessary or whatever. Lando was never before deemed necessary.

It would be different if Smogon worked differently (ie. Arbitrary shifts or super lenient bannings... 'What does it add to the tier' (tho it showed its face in aegi test), etc.), but it doesn't.

semantics and policy, though, is irrelevent to the fact that there is no "that is wrong, because" without a preemptive "that."

The only "that": landorus is not broken, so it is allowed in OU.

There needs to then be an argument from the pro-ban side, because there is literally nothing for the anti-ban side to argue.

Really doesn't matter, but worth clarifying
As many have stated, this isn't a court of law.

What that means is, people dont have to convince someone "without reasonable doubt" that lando is banworthy, nor is the rule to not ban unless it is proven that lando is banworthy.

There is no burden of proof; one doesnt have to prove anything because even with the same facts, one can vote however they please. They could suspect mega ray for all it matters, and someone could vote to bring it to ou because they think its cool looking.
Since it does not matter if anyone "proves" it, it is up to the no ban side to provide arguments, lest everyone who is capable of being swayed decides to ban it.
 
Baharoth
Hard to wear down because no rocks weakness (Zard Y, Kyurem-B) and an immunity to Spikes (Kyurem-B, Manaphy)
Doesn't take up a mega slot, so really low opportunity cost (Zard Y)
Immediate Power (Manaphy, Kyurem-B also does less damage)
A nice typing including 2 immunities which helps finding switchin opportunities (Kyurem-B)
A way to improve its speed tier (Manaphy, Zard Y, Kyurem-B)
Possibility to run different sets / Diversity (Zard Y's SpD set is not threatening as a wallbreaker, same as Manaphy's CM set)
To be fair just for the sake of argument Zard Y can use Dragon Dance to boost its speed if it so desires.

And just so this isn't a one-liner, a few pages back someone asked for a list of one or multiple pokemon that can not only safely handle Lando-I but also the common cores associated with Lando. Now I'm assuming this is a 1v1 situation, in other words I'm suggesting a check not a counter.

And that's standard AoA LO Weavile. Bops Lando obviously but also wrecks Scarf TTar with Low Kick, as Scarftar is an amazing Pursuit trapper to run in tandem with Lando-I. Bonus points: Scarftar doesn't even outspeed max Jolly Weavile so even if you don't nail it with Low Kick on the switch you still naturally outspeed so you don't have to worry about taking a SE Stone Edge or anything.

Come to think of it LO Mamoswine also dismantled at least this particular Landotar core. Pretty much every OU viable Ice Shard user wrecks that core at least. Any other common Lando cores we can attempt to dismantle with one pokemon?
 
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MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
I'm not trying to be idealistic lol. I'm not arguing "shoulds". If someone argued that lando should stay because <reason that isn't 'this broken aegument is wrong'>, then they would be met with "smogon doesn't work that way/check broken with broken/etc.".

There is no real-world idealism to be had here. Perhaps it's more correct to say that there aren't any /good/ arguments to be made prior to the pro-ban side making one of their own?

Yes. I could say "keep lando because it makes stall easier to handle and it isnt as strong as mawile and it would suck in ubers" (ie. Arguments that are not strongly founded upon countering pro-ban arguments), and yes, this would be reasoning to sway a decision.

However, in the context of smogon, it would either be deleted or flamed for two pages for going against the in-ground idealism of smogon (also the rules).

I have no problem with banning/not banning for ulterior motives.... Smogon does. So, there aren't many arguments to be made that aren't simply countering the pro-side.

Again, though, it really doesn't matter. Just clarifying. This isn't about "lol innocent til guilty burden onus". It's was an observation on what works and what doesn't
 
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To be fair just for the sake of argument Zard Y can use Dragon Dance to boost its speed if it so desires.

And just so this isn't a one-liner, a few pages back someone asked for a list of one or multiple pokemon that can not only safely handle Lando-I but also the common cores associated with Lando. Now I'm assuming this is a 1v1 situation, in other words I'm suggesting a check not a counter.

And that's standard AoA LO Weavile. Boos Lando obviously but also wrecks Scarf TTar with Low Kick, as Scarftar is an amazing Pursuit trapper to run in tandem with Lando-I. Bonus points: Scarftar doesn't even outspeed max Jolly Weavile so even if you don't nail it with Low Kick on the switch you still naturally outspeed so you don't have to worry about taking a SE Stone Edge or anything.

Come to think of it LO Mamoswine also dismantled at least this particular Landotar core. Pretty much every OU viable Ice Shard user wrecks that core at least. Any other common Lando cores we can attempt to dismantle with one pokemon?
lol DD Zard Y new meta.

As for Weavile and Mamoswine, they can only get in after Lando has already taken a Pokemon out. And when they switch in, the Lando-I user can simply you know, switch out instead of saccing his win condition like a fool. Oh, btw Keldeo easily takes the Ice Shard and OHKOes the ONLY TWO RELEVANT Ice Shard user in OU (don't pretend that there are any other Shard user. )

Every single Pokemon has things that can force it out, even our Lord Mega Rayquaza isn't invincible. However, Lando-I simply creates a situation such that whenever it enters the field, it can completely swing the momentum in its user's favour because of how threatening it is to all teams. Say, Lando comes in on a Pokemon it can force out (let's use a 70% Clefable as an example ). So, Clefable is in KO range of Sludge Wave and is outsped. You really can't do anything meaningful here so you are forced to sac the Clefable to bring in your Mamoswine. Yes, you have forced Lando out but you have just sacced one Pokemon and is now weaker to my CM Keldeo which can still defeat your Mamoswine.
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
ZardY doesnt neccessarily need Roost; Flame Charge is decent for breaking offensive teams lategame - fc is better then dd but lack of sun turns and rock weakness makes roost much better on a broad scale but a HO zardy might appreciate the speed boost.

Just food for thought.

Back to discussing Landorus: Im surprised the u-turn set isnt popular or discussed as much; its highly efficient because it supports VoltTurn style teams (which can offer OTHER POKEMON ASIDE FROM LANDORUS switch innitiative and it helps pressure its counters and checks in general).

I mean, Im still on the fence, but having u-turn makes Land pretty versatile even tho it was pretty versatile to begin with.

(Please excuse grammar typed on a phone.)


edit: @Gros ortell Just because the ice moves are supereffective doesn't make them any less supereffective against Landorus. Landorus is still x4 weak to ice moves even if you, the player, "predict" them. Since the prediction argument rolls both ways, it's insufficient to use it in suspect threads (not necessarily only directed to you, since lots of users have been saying this, too).
 
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