np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - Run The Jewels

[zbr]

Now I just want to pick on some things that are mentioned here. Sorry in advance but here some mistakes I think are made in this statement.

Mega Sableye discourages originality.I'm sure most people have been faced the mega sableye teams whether they be Gothitelle stall or the team using shedinja, Dugtrio, Talonflame, seismitoad, and Togekiss.

First you say that M-Sab discourages originality, then you proceed to say that a team with M-Sab and Shed together is an unoriginal team? I can assure you that actually M-Sab promotes uniqueness in the metagame. The reason why we often think that M-Sab, which has a diverse set of choices it can go with, is stallish and whatnot is because of it's ubiquity on Stall. M-Sab, who boasts such amazing bulk, recovery and ability (both mega and prior), is a mon that in my opinion actually makes the gamestate more playable. Thanks to M-Sab's presence, one can't just go free plusing all over the opponent by spamming hazards, sacking the hazard setter and then proceed to go ham. It's also not as if M-Sab is super fast and boast recoveries outside of Recover.

Because of this one Pokemon anyone can build one of these teams without thought and get to the upper portions of the ladder. Yes you can credit the original team builders but in a game where part of the equation is team building, it's frustrating how one Pokemon can take away that part.

This is absolutely not true. As much as tried and tested M-Sab oriented Stall/Balance squads have a certain similar style of building, to get one team to work (esp stall) is not as easy as just slapping 6 walls on the team.

So maybe Mega Sableye is easy to overpower, but I think that banning would bring skill and thinking back to the team building process and to stall itself.

M-Sab is a huge reason as to why Stall teams are becoming increasingly consistent, however, if you notice, a lot of good stall teams that have been popping up recently have been straying from the standard Sab Goth builds but rather are moving towards (Bulky Mega) + Goth builds. Isn't this proof enough that despite M-Sab being available, it is not omnipresent on stall/balance and is not what reducing the skill level of team building for stall? It is Goth (Shadow Tag in this suspect) that is the demon amongst us.

 

[MikeDawg]

Now I just want to pick on some things that are mentioned here. Sorry in advance but here some mistakes I think are made in this statement.First you say that M-Sab discourages originality, then you proceed to say that a team with M-Sab and Shed together is an unoriginal team? I can assure you that actually M-Sab promotes uniqueness in the metagame. The reason why we often think that M-Sab, which has a diverse set of choices it can go with, is stallish and whatnot is because of it's ubiquity on Stall. M-Sab, who boasts such amazing bulk, recovery and ability (both mega and prior), is a mon that in my opinion actually makes the gamestate more playable. Thanks to M-Sab's presence, one can't just go free plusing all over the opponent by spamming hazards, sacking the hazard setter and then proceed to go ham. It's also not as if M-Sab is super fast and boast recoveries outside of Recover. This is absolutely not true. As much as tried and tested M-Sab oriented Stall/Balance squads have a certain similar style of building, to get one team to work (esp stall) is not as easy as just slapping 6 walls on the team. M-Sab is a huge reason as to why Stall teams are becoming increasingly consistent, however, if you notice, a lot of good stall teams that have been popping up recently have been straying from the standard Sab Goth builds but rather are moving towards (Bulky Mega) + Goth builds. Isn't this proof enough that despite M-Sab being available, it is not omnipresent on stall/balance and is not what reducing the skill level of team building for stall? It is Goth (Shadow Tag in this suspect) that is the demon amongst us.

To add onto the first point:

I would argue that hazards are far more limiting and centralizing, and I doubt that anybody would disagree. The existence of stealth rocks makes many mons into a liability from turn 0. This is irrelevant since sableye is being suspected, not hazards, but it is an important thing to consider leading into the next point. Thanks to defog and strong rapid spinners (to a lesser extent), a lot of these have a new lease on life--charizard and talonflame come to mind--but mons like volcarona, moltres, dragonite, rotom-h, entei, arcanine, victini (especially defensive cough Gardevoir), even shendinja, and many more offensive and defensive threats are severly hampered. Stealth rocks effectively limits your team to carrying 1 rocks user (of which there are few viable ones per playstyle), and either a dedicated hazard remover (again, very few choices. Almost always a lati or a skarm) or a team that just doesn't care about hazards (which is inherently limiting with, again, few options).

Sableye itself invalidates what stallbreakers? Medicham, stallbreaker mew, and Gallade I guess? Let's also ignore the fact that creative mew-esque mons like stallbreaker talon and gliscor have become popular as a result.

Looking past goth-stall (which will be dismantled in some form at the conclusion of this test), sableye opens the door for all of those fire, ice, bug, and flying types that can't function well in a stealth rocks infested metagame (on stall or balanced teams that choose to use sableye). Again, diversity isn't my favorite argument to use in a suspect test, but this post is a direct response to the common assertion that sableye actually reduces diversity and centralizes teambuilding.

On sableye's side, magic bounce facilitates the use of lots of colorful and uncommon mons that would otherwise be unviable.

On the opposite end, stallbreaker mew splits its use into multiple creative mons. Hazard spam + skarm trap/lure isn't a catch-all strategy to blow through stall or balance (extrapolate this to apply to similar strategies). Medicham can't just breeze through slower teams.

Sableye brings far more diversity to the meta than it takes away.

 

[Karxrida]

If Sableye was the herald of diversity you claim it to be, people wouldn't be spamming one of two teams with it for easy wins and we wouldn't be restricted to 3 consistent hazard users. It gives way too much control of the hazard game to the user and is thus incredibly centralizing.

 

[astroshagger]

Just a fyi, even the *act* of suspecting something subconsciously shifts user-opinion towards its ban due to some people's tendency to immediately align with administrator/faculty action. Not 1 month ago no one had a fuckin single problem with Sab but now that it was "chosen" as a suspect everyone reverts to mob mentality and claims "broken, centralizing". Lmao, no joke some of the people posting in this thread speak out of both sides of their face.

I said it before a million times I'll say it again this whole suspect process is flawed especially considering the fickle mindset of so many of the members and their inability to form opinions on their own.

 

[Karxrida]

Yeah, cause we totally banned Mega Metagross and Keldeo didn't avoid the hammer twice back in Gen V.

Some people have had issues with Mega Sableye for a while (I personally thought it was banworthy back at the beginning of ORAS), we were just quiet about it since asking for suspects in the forums isn't exactly allowed.

 

[Celticpride]

Just a fyi, even the *act* of suspecting something subconsciously shifts user-opinion towards its ban due to some people's tendency to immediately align with administrator/faculty action. Not 1 month ago no one had a fuckin single problem with Sab but now that it was "chosen" as a suspect everyone reverts to mob mentality and claims "broken, centralizing". Lmao, no joke some of the people posting in this thread speak out of both sides of their face.

I said it before a million times I'll say it again this whole suspect process is flawed especially considering the fickle mindset of so many of the members and their inability to form opinions on their own.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mega-sableye-and-its-effect-on-the-metagame.3554509/

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gothitelle-shadow-tag-suspect-test.3549908/

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-current-state-of-oras-ou.3547120/

Frankly saying this came out of nowhere is just wrong, I don't know what to tell you. Those threads are roughly six weeks apart and all carry a similar theme. Also, you are far from alone in your thoughts on the suspect process. It's not perfect, and you'd have to look pretty hard to find a person who thinks it is. That's not really relevant to the matter at hand but before you go blaming "the administration" I would look more carefully at the facts before making blanket accusations about the current suspect and the suspect process.

 

[branflakes]

With most of the discussion on Gothitelle there hasn't been much pro-ban talk for mega sableye. I want to bring up something no one has brought up to my knowledge. Mega Sableye discourages originality.

I'm sure most people have been faced the mega sableye teams whether they be Gothitelle stall or the team using shedinja, Dugtrio, Talonflame, seismitoad, and Togekiss. Because of this one Pokemon anyone can build one of these teams without thought and get to the upper portions of the ladder. Yes you can credit the original team builders but in a game where part of the equation is team building, it's frustrating how one Pokemon can take away that part.

So maybe Mega Sableye is easy to overpower, but I think that banning would bring skill and thinking back to the team building process and to stall itself.

eh well shit i tried

 

[baddummy]

With most of the discussion on Gothitelle there hasn't been much pro-ban talk for mega sableye. I want to bring up something no one has brought up to my knowledge. Mega Sableye discourages originality.

I'm sure most people have been faced the mega sableye teams whether they be Gothitelle stall or the team using shedinja, Dugtrio, Talonflame, seismitoad, and Togekiss. Because of this one Pokemon anyone can build one of these teams without thought and get to the upper portions of the ladder. Yes you can credit the original team builders but in a game where part of the equation is team building, it's frustrating how one Pokemon can take away that part.

So maybe Mega Sableye is easy to overpower, but I think that banning would bring skill and thinking back to the team building process and to stall itself.

This is actually a very interesting idea, and I'd like to add my own little bit to it. I was talking to somebody who typically plays bulkier builds recently, and he said that Sableye was very restricting for fatter builds too. More specifically, because of how it seems to outshine other megas in the case of matching against similar builds. A bulkier build generally wins games by setting up hazards, and spreading status, I'll discount trapping stuff with Gothitelle for this post. Unsurprisingly, a pokemon that can bounce those right back becomes absolutely key in the event of a bulky team facing a bulky team, a big part of these games revolves around keeping Mega Sableye healthy. So, a bulkier team that doesn't opt to run Mega Sableye will typically lose to one that does. Yes, I'm aware that there will be pokemon that can beat Sableye and have nice defensive synergy, but the fact remains that the Sableye player will be able to get hazard damage on the opponent, while the reverse will not happen. From that point on, there's already been some team members which have been established which work well with it, such as Quagsire, or Skarmory. Now, I'm not saying that those pokemon wouldn't otherwise be used on a bulkier build, but Sableye enforces a very rigid structure for certain builds now. I very rarely play fat builds now, if at all, and preserving playstyles hasn't been an argument I've been a fan of for a while now. However, if you do play them, aren't you just a little bit tired of Sableye having such an incredible boon in that it keeps hazards off the field, to the point where it makes you reluctant to run bulky teams that don't use it, due to the risk of getting outstalled by one that does?

 

[Sablenite]

Banning Shadow Tag will actually be much healthier for stall. You see offense doesn't have a problem with stall, stall has a problem with stall, because the stall with Gothitelle will always have an advantage over a stall team with out.

Again, this is true, but Gothitelle is generally able to be able to handled by the stall team's mega, AV holders, and Volt-Turn users, and if your team doesn't have this, just lure Gothitelle into a random Knock Off, or make sure it tries to trap your steel type, which either over-powers it or has a shed shell anyhow to avoild Magnazone

With most of the discussion on Gothitelle there hasn't been much pro-ban talk for mega sableye. I want to bring up something no one has brought up to my knowledge. Mega Sableye discourages originality.

I'm sure most people have been faced the mega sableye teams whether they be Gothitelle stall or the team using shedinja, Dugtrio, Talonflame, seismitoad, and Togekiss. Because of this one Pokemon anyone can build one of these teams without thought and get to the upper portions of the ladder. Yes you can credit the original team builders but in a game where part of the equation is team building, it's frustrating how one Pokemon can take away that part.

So maybe Mega Sableye is easy to overpower, but I think that banning would bring skill and thinking back to the team building process and to stall itself.

If you are missing a fire type or fairy type on your team, there is a lot more your losing to then Sableye, esp. all the Dragons, M-Lopunny, and other stuff right off the back


O.K. hopefully this is the last argument I'll make about this case:

Manaphy @ Shed Shell
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 96 HP / 252 SpA / 160 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Tail Glow
- Knock Off

Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 172 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Spe
Modest Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Fire]

This Manaphy set is perfectly usable, and paired with Magnazone, it gets rid of Ferrothorn and forces water types out or kills them. The best answers to Manaphy outside of Gothitelle. Knock Off lures Gothitele and prevents the Trick-Scarf, and still is capable of breaking past Chansey. I know this argument won't convince all of you that Sable-Goth isn't cancerous, but its not completely broken, just IMO it hasn't been adapted too yet. And nothing w/ the above set is bad in the meta, considering Manaphy is not item dependent, and it can fill its last slot w/ anything.

Also, Magnazone fills as a nice pivot w/o trapping, so don't argue at the fact it targets specific targets. Please don't hate on stall, just adapt; as we had to adapt to Hoopa and survived.

 

[astroshagger]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mega-sableye-and-its-effect-on-the-metagame.3554509/

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gothitelle-shadow-tag-suspect-test.3549908/

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-current-state-of-oras-ou.3547120/

Frankly saying this came out of nowhere is just wrong, I don't know what to tell you. Those threads are roughly six weeks apart and all carry a similar theme. Also, you are far from alone in your thoughts on the suspect process. It's not perfect, and you'd have to look pretty hard to find a person who thinks it is. That's not really relevant to the matter at hand but before you go blaming "the administration" I would look more carefully at the facts before making blanket accusations about the current suspect and the suspect process.

I guess I wasn't clear:

People have always had issues with Sab, just like there are people who have always had issues with manaphy, hoopa, metagross, or anything in particular. What I mean is that people's issue with Sab never came into fruition until someone decided to test it. And at that point, the suspect process just serves as a platform and an enabler for recurisve and rehashed arguments. People are saying the exact. same. shit. about M-sab that they've said before, but it's suddenly way more important now becasue there is a suspect thread for it. The other issue I have is that these tests seem like they pop up, not out of necessity for a change in the games environment, but for the sake of routine.

I never said the suspect process was flawed because of "administration", re-read my post and you'll see I believe it has way more to do with the userbase than the admins/mods/council members or whatever.

 

[bsu]

I guess I wasn't clear:

People have always had issues with Sab, just like there are people who have always had issues with manaphy, hoopa, metagross, or anything in particular. What I mean is that people's issue with Sab never came into fruition until someone decided to test it.

lol i think u have the cause and effect mixed up there. its because people have been having problems with sab/goth for so long that they decided to test it. at least I'm pretty sure thats how it works lol. also i mean with 12 pages people are bound to repeat some of the same things over bc nobody really has time to read the entire thing except for no-lifers (like me lol)

 

[brittney♥kitty]

well i just got my reqs so i guess i should post my 2 cents here

been telling McMeghan to test shadowtag for as long as i can remember, its sad it took this long -_-

my opinion on stag: this shit broken fam, like goth or wob can come in and i cant switchout? like WTF, thats stupid, i cant wait till it gone. goth come n and use psychic on my keldeo, wobb come in and use counter on my metagross, now a crucial member of my team is gone (though sumtime i be flinching wobb with metagross lulz) and there no counter play, whats fair bout tht

my opinion on sableye: aite sableye annoying AF to play against, but dont rly think it broken, it can stay i guess

shoutouts mush monkey one time know im sayin

RIP honus
#freebloo

I was just pointing out that offense is not irrelevant when talking about Shadow tag. While stall with stag is more common, well built and played offense with it can be devastating.

this another great point

ppl focus on tht one msable + goth stall team that honestly isnt even that great, but paired with the right sweepers, goth and to a lesser extent wobb can be scary, the main reason this gets overlooked imo is because there not many good enough to execute this well, so its not as common as that braindead stall team, so they havent been exposed to it via ladder or w/e

also on the topic of sableye

stealth rock probably the biggest part of the game

its the only move u need on basically every team

is it rly so bad to have a mon in the metagame to discourage rocks????

 

[WhiteQueen]

People who think stall isn't viable without using Mega Sableye or a Shadow Tag Pokemon obviously haven't run into me on the Suspect ladder yet. I'm a few games away from getting reqs and my 30 something victims so far can attest to how well my stall team functions.

Laddering has been rather enjoyabe minus the occasional Goth encounters. Shadow Tag is a dumb and noncompetitive ability and should be banned, otherwise Santa Claus will be pissed and won't go around town giving kids toys this year.

 

[Toljik]

Sableye brings far more diversity to the meta than it takes away.

Is diversity what we really want, though? Without a blanket check or two, it's nearly impossible to prepare for every threat in OU using 6 Pokemon and 24 moves. No one likes losing on turn one because of a bad matchup.

 

[branflakes]

People who think stall isn't viable without using Mega Sableye or a Shadow Tag Pokemon obviously haven't run into me on the Suspect ladder yet. I'm a few games away from getting reqs and my 30 something victims so far can attest to how well my stall team functions.

Laddering has been rather enjoyabe minus the occasional Goth encounters. Shadow Tag is a dumb and noncompetitive ability and should be banned, otherwise Santa Claus will be pissed and won't go around town giving kids toys this year.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but there are a few other factors on the ladder that may contribute to your team's success:
1. Most people arent bothering with stall breakers right now
2. You're obviously a good player and im sure you're making some good plays
3. Hazard offense is popular, and your team most likely capitalizes on the trends of the suspect ladder

That being said I'm sure stall can still be great in a settled meta. Mega Venusaur, Scizor, Altaria and even Zard X can all be great on stall/semi-stall builds. Stall's options would be limited by banning Mega Sableye and ST, but that doesn't mean the playstyle itself is getting nerfed.

 

[MikeDawg]

If Sableye was the herald of diversity you claim it to be, people wouldn't be spamming one of two teams with it for easy wins and we wouldn't be restricted to 3 consistent hazard users. It gives way too much control of the hazard game to the user and is thus incredibly centralizing.

Both you and I know that without Gothitelle, standard gothstall would not be successful; it is destroyed by every standard wallbreaker. So, you aren't spamming a cancerous team with Sableye (in the same sense that you aren't spamming a cancerous team with skarmory). You are spamming a cancerous team with Gothitelle.

The other team that you are talking about is more fair, but I would argue that Sableye is replaceable. At the end of the day, Sableye is nothing more than an excellent source of hazard control. Luckily, gens 5 and 6 brought us multiple hazard control mechanisms: enhanced trapping and defog, respectively. The way I see it, defog is a given when going for absolute hazard control. That leaves two options to fill the role of incapacitating the hazard setters themselves: trap/lure them early game, or directly engage them with sableye throughout the battle. For reference, in the Wonder Trio team, he used all three (since Shedinja does require so much support, and dugtrio doubled as a sand check).

I believe that Sableye is not neccesary in the Wonder Trio team. It can be replaced by (of course) Gothitelle.

There is a trade-off here: you lose a bulky utility mon and you have to play well in the early-game. In exchange, you can secure a huge early-game advantage, you have increased weather control (Hippowdown), and you gain a mega slot. A simple set of HP Ice, Grass Knot, Filler, and Trick @ Choice Specs can outspeed and eliminate almost every common hazard setter. Note that you also have the luxury of being paired with dugtrio to dispatch of mons like Chansey more easily. You do lose against HO leads like Azelf since you can't Fake Out + Magic Bounce from turn 1, but the popularity of Skill Swap/Dazzling Gleam somewhat invalidates this anyway.

For proof, I took Wonder Trio, replaced Sableye, and made some minor tweaks after testing. I didn't replace any other mons, because I'm bad at teambuilding, but the end result still functions just fine, even without a mega. Here's one of the games where Gothitelle manages both hazard and weather control:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-299033983 *


The point (other than to call-out Karxrida's shitpost lol) is that Sableye is not a necessity for stall, nor is it a necessity for hazard control. This shedinja team is literally the closest that you can get to needing Sableye, and you still don't need Sableye. It then follows that replacing Sableye in any other team will be even easier.

Of course, the replacement was another problem mon in Gothitelle, but that doesn't change the fact that the same purpose was accomplished without Sableye. The matchup issue here obviously comes from Shedinja itself, but this team is definitely beatable with or without hazards anyway. Again, this team is the most extreme example of hazard control because of how much support Shedinja needs; Gothitelle isn't going to be as much of a necessity in most other teams (you can accomplish the same thing with a Natural Gift (Ice) Talonflame and other similar lures).



May as well round this out with a few more thoughts:

Toljik in this case, I would say yes; diversity is a good thing. Keep in mind that we aren't really adding any more offensive threats than already exist. I'm referring strictly to mons that can now check those strong threats that everyone complains about. Defensive Victini vs Gardevoir/Char-Y, Rotom-H vs Talon/Char-Y/Scizor, etc.

Reiterating that there is no valid should. No, it isn't true that you should be able to use Mew to counter stall. It isn't true that you should be able to stack hazards. This isn't a matter of "use Dazzling Gleam Azelf or you lose". There are dozens of stallbreaking threats/strategies that have been around since ORAS started. Replace Mew with Gliscor or Talonflame, and accept that you absolutely don't need hazards to beat stall (and that Sableye isn't the only thing stopping you from using them). The quintessential Gardevoir/Heracross/Hoopa/etc. still work just as well as they used to, Sableye or no Sableye. Stop trying to live in XY.


*weird air balloon is because I was scared of spikes since I had no intention of trapping klefki. Just realized that klefki is trapped by dugtrio. Oops. Focus sash is much better, then.

 

[Tio Chico]

Mega Sableye is not so broken as they say they are, or how much would have us think it is. Many offensive Pokémon with neutral STAB can give 2 KO on Mega Sableye, and this is what we need to do: attack, just attack.

Mega Sableye has an extension of checks/switch-ins, any Fire, any Fairy ... and without Shadow Tag/Gothitelle, I could also add Crocune, Manaphy Rain Dance, Gliscor SD.

Mega Sableye is just the only solid counter of Entry Hazards (mainly Stealth Rock) of game, and his Ghost-Type gives you immunity to Rapid Spin. This neutralizes Donphan, Forretress, Shuckle, among others, but this does not make it broken. Heatran inhibits a lot of other Mon and is not broken.

In a generation where Fairy is one of the best types, if not the best, I do not see much reason for complaint against Mega Sableye, I know, it's annoying, but it is not invincible. With only one weakness, immunity to Rapid Spin, Trap, Trick, Taunt, Leech Seed, Will-O-Wisp, Toxic ... Just attack this mon.

We do not need use Stealth Rock in Turn 1, this movement is present in any Tier, any play style, any battle, since the generation IV, all build starts around Stealth Rock, that yes is to centralize, and Mega Sableye is just the only that can prevent it safely, and is still faulty at times. Mega Sableye need not be always the first Pokémon opponent to be defeated, the team has other five, right?

The game is full of powerfull Mega Evolutions and broken mons, as Hoopa-B and Serperior, simply choose some and break the stall of the opponent.

About Shadow Tag, the Pokémon with Shadow Tag simply fits the team, trapping threats, Key-mon and defeat/Trick the wincon of opponent, no switchs, no flaws, no fun. Shadow Tag has much greater options and purposes that Magnet Pull/Arena Trap. In short, it is broken and umcompetitive.

Without Shadow Tag in tier, I believe that many people will see that stall is just a play style viable (but it needs patience), and Mega Sableye is not as cancer to face.

Do not ban Sablenite.
Ban Shadow Tag.

 

[MANNAT]

Thanks to MikeDawg for the new laddering team lol. Actually, stall doesn't hurt in viability too much with msab gone since Gothitelle preforms its role regardless of who the mega is, and many other utility megas like megabro, mega venu, etc. work very well on stall builds and can check a myriad of threats just as sab does. However, the ability of Gothitelle to trap mons that would normally be a huge problem for stall is very uncompetitive in the way that it does it because basically the only counterplay on a team aside from prediction, which goes both ways, is specifically using sets with items or moves like shed shell/knock off that are literally dead weight any time that you aren't playing gothitelle stall.

 

[Xyldaz]

Hello everyone, I'd like, for my very first time in a suspect test, give my opinion about Shadow Tag.

I do not think it is broken.

I know Goth is cancerous and everything, that switching is one of the major mechanics in pokemon if not the most important, and that preventing a poke from doing so is, as some like to call it "uncompetitive".
However. The abilty in istself is not broken, as seen on the Wobuffet line. Shadow Tag isn't the true problem, Gothitelle is and this suspect that only gives us the possibility to vote for a ban on every poke having Shadow Tag is quite absurd. Wobbuffet is a niche pokemon, that only works on some teams due to its ability to remove certain key threats, but it doesn't have reliable recovery, doesn't learn any status move, doesn't even learn an attacking move, meaning it has to predict almost every time it tries to inflict damages. Every pokemon in the game has a way to bypass Wobb, be it by taunt or status, and I don't really thing it is centralizing the metagame in any way (like, seriously, have you ever run a Shed Shell on a pokemon to avoid getting trapped by Wobbuffet...)

I won't argue with the fact that Gothitelle is probably broken, but only time will tell us if it truly is.

Oh, and we banned Blaziken itslef a generation ago, and not Speed Boost, because it was supposed not to be broken on every pokemon having access to this ability. I think this is also the case here : if Shadow Tag is broken on certain pokemons, ban them, not the ability.

 

[espeonguy]

I'm honestly a little bit disappointed in the Mega Sableye suspect. To me, what I'm hearing is that everyone is so reliant on entry hazards that they can't win without them. Using my Sableye was refreshing because I didn't have to bring my own hazards, I could just punish those who did. This meta game is too overcentralized on one move, and the moment it becomes a challenge to use it, the masses lose it. I'm all for Sableye sticking around. As for Gothitelle and Shadow Tag, I'm in agreement there. Shadow Tag is one of the least skill based strategies in the game. At least with Sableye it takes some set up and timing to run him properly.

 

[Shruggy]

I guess i have my required coil in order to vote in the suspect test so i might as well put my opinion in. I was really tempted to post earlier in this suspect test as it is relatively important to me being a) probably my most used mega and b) my most disliked mon ever lol. However i waited until i had actually laddered at a decent level to form my opinion as like you cant really judge how the changes will pan out without actually participating first.

So, im going to start with M-sableye. This guy is a cheeky cunt alright and probably the most game defining 'S' rank threat out there, not saying the others arent potent but when you see this guy in the opp. team lineup you sorta give out a little groan and think "fuck. Fucking sableye. Fucks sake not again". Like he's really obnoxious lol he has decent stats, decent typing, above decent ability both pre and post mega and finally a nice deep movepool to boot. He cripples attackers he knocks items off and shuts down the hazard game which is a pretty huge deal overall no mistake as a lot of teams rely on hazard pressure to net crucial ko's on mons. If you dont prepare for him in some way then you deserve to lose, simple. In exactly the same way that if you dont prepare for manaphy or clefable you deserve to lose. I dont think anyone can or should argue that you dont have to prepare for 'S' rank threats as they are literally meta-defining.

But you can prepare for him relatively easily. Every fairy can deal with him relatively comfortably and can all 1hko or 2hko him without breaking a sweat and considering most are special attackers or have nice utility moves themselves the burns arent so much of a problem. Azu is the only one he can kind of beat if he gets a wisp off but cb play rough still does 60% after a burn. But lets say that you're teambuilding and you dont want a fairy type which is not a problem, plenty of teams dont. You also want to get them tasty hazards down, so you use a rocky helmet chomp, currently very good in the meta. If this is your method of getting hazards down and you dont have an additional mon capable of beating sableye to complement sableye then you deserve to lose. Thats probably an unpopular opinion but again its pretty much the same with every 'S' and many 'A+' rank threats.

There are plenty of stealth rockers out there who can beat sableye either straight up or via lure sets. EP lando-t, lum berry chomp, heatran, mold breaker exca, skill swap azelf, clefable, lum berry terrakion, seismitoad, empoleon and probably several more. Yes these all have a variety of different viability levels, yes some of them are a bit niche. Yes there are rockers who will probably never beat sableye like skarmory or chansey regardless of the set they run. No, these things are not a problem, you can run those non sableye-beating rock setters just fine but only if you in addition prepare a threat to deal with sableye. While its mixed defenses are decent it still goes down relatively easily to 2 decent neutral hits and its not all that hard to predict his switch-ins either as he will nearly always switch-in to a mon that can stealth rock as thats his job role.

Having said all that i actually fun on this ladder without sableye. Its was refreshing not see it on the ladder, i would undoutably feel the same way if manaphy or hoopa-u was gone because then my life would be much easier lol. The game is much easier when the hard things you have to deal with are no longer an issue. I made a nice and simple M-gyara stall which was relatively effective, i saw a few other stalls on the ladder which i generally had no problem beating. They all had either m-bro or m-venu as their mega which are nice safe standard options that can pull their weight. I saw a lot of spike teams, as all the main spikers are beaten by sableye so it makes sense that they start to become more popular now. A lot of people seem to be forgoing stall-breakers too which is hilarious and makes my job nice and easy. Saw a lot of random 5 HO mons + rocky hat chomp just splashed about but that would probably die down quite quickly on real ladder i guess. I dont feel the meta game has particularly improved without having m-sableye. Yeah its good to experiment with other megas on stall but you're basically doing the same thing as before, stall wont die without sableye and quite frankly its not ban worthy. Its just another mon at the top of the current metagame. Its not uncompetitive and its not broken its just very good at doing its job but there are a wide variety of ways to get around him if you prepare for him.

However that brings me onto exhibit B. The mon that i dislike most in the entire game, the one that i would sacrifice sableye to get rid of, Gothitelle. The basic problem here is that goth removes the methods people use to get around sableye, thereby making sableye unbeatable. The issue is not with sableye it is with the usage of goth to bullshit its way past its problems. Manaphy getting you down? trick it a scarf. Clefable putting up rocks on your sableye? trick it a scarf. Various stall breakers giving you a problem? Trick them a scarf. Opposing stall chansey pissing you off? trick it a scarf. There is not counter play to this. You cannot avoid it unless you play about 5x better than your opponents. I have faced goth stall with non-goth stall and it is 90% of the time unless you hax them an instant loss. Sure i can double-switch my chansey constantly but then its not doing its job, its completely dead weight.

The real problem is the removal of counterplay that goth provides. Here is an example of healthy and good counter play:

Team 1 has a mega Charizard Y and a scarf ttar, team 2 has a chansey and a skarmory.

Zard Y comes in on skarmory. Skarmory switches to chansey. Zard Y uses Fireblast. Zard Y switches to Ttar, Chansey heals. Ttar uses pursuit on Chansey as chansey switches to skarmory. Chansey is now too weak to take a fireblast from Zard Y on the switch and a second one next turn. Team 1 wins.

Well done team 1 you successfully predicted your opponent and performed counterplay measures that took some element of skill in order to win.

Second example:

Team 1 has a sableye and a gothitelle, team 2 has a clefable and a ferrothorn.

Sableye comes in on ferro. Ferro switches out to clefable. Sableye switches out to Gothitelle. Clefable cannot switch out, he has no options here for counterplay options here. Gothitelle gives Clefable the scarf and then proceeds to pp stall it until it dies. Threat to sableye removed. Team 1 wins.

This is not a good example of skill and counterplay measures because the skill element has been removed. In the previous example chansey has a choice, he doesnt have to switch out he can heal on the predicted pursuit and therefore effectively 'win' that round. Its skill and prediction based. Example two there is no skill or prediction here. Yes clefable could predict the switch and double out to another mon but generally this is only delaying the inevitable as eventually you will need to leave clefable in so it can do its job otherwise its the same as it being dead if it cannot switch in.

These are just generic examples, please dont read too much into them. They do not account for the other 4 team members or individual skill etc they are just merely representations of how many games proceed. The point here is that there are two examples of counter play, one is player driven and the other is mechanic driven. In the first both players have control over their options to win the game, in the second only team one has control over their options to win the game. This is unhealthy and broken. 90% of the problems people have with sableye are exacerbated by goth. You dont run shed shell manaphy/toge/whatever to bypass goth you do it to keep your stallbreaker alive to bypass sableye and win the game. The problem here is goth, not sableye. Goth is preventing your stall breaker from, well breaking stall. It is the issue and should be removed.

Sorry for the wall of text.

TLDR:

Sableye is an obnoxious shit but is not broken and uncompetitive. Do not ban
Gothitelle is a broken piece of obnoxious shit that everyone would prefer to leave the tier. Ban

Thank you for your time.

 

[Jeronado]

I don't really understand why people keep mentioning Sableye as a mon that discourages the use of hazards or that promotes entry hazard creativity when Sableye teams are just as capable of hazard-stacking as any other team. Looking at the sample teams thread CleanerThanRotom-W's Sableye stall team runs Spikes Skarmory, TDK and Dice's Sableye balance runs Spikes Ferrothorn, naturally Stealth Rock is on both these teams as well. How exactly is Sableye preventing the "spamming of hazards"? Seems to me that the only time hazards won't be a big deal is if both teams are running Sableye. The mon just controls the hazards game for its side, it doesn't encourage creativity by any means.

 

[ssjjynx]

I don't really understand why people keep mentioning Sableye as a mon that discourages the use of hazards or that promotes entry hazard creativity when Sableye teams are just as capable of hazard-stacking as any other team. Looking at the sample teams thread CleanerThanRotom-W's Sableye stall team runs Spikes Skarmory, TDK and Dice's Sableye balance runs Spikes Ferrothorn, naturally Stealth Rock is on both these teams as well. How exactly is Sableye preventing the "spamming of hazards"? Seems to me that the only time hazards won't be a big deal is if both teams are running Sableye. The mon just controls the hazards game for its side, it doesn't encourage creativity by any means.

When you're building, the idea of hazards stacking is generally considered a bad one when there is something like megasab running around. sab being in the tier discourages even incorporating hazards stacking in your team during the teambuilding stage. Otherwise, you could just freely spam spikes-ts-rocks on each ho team as shown in the suspect ladder, and throw hazards around willy nilly without any fear of consequences or repercussions. If you try doing the same thing in a sab-infested meta, you will get crushed. As such, sab being in the meta acts as a control for hazards, which normally don't have any risks when using them (other loss of momentum). Unless you have a sab on your team, hazards stacking in a meta with sab isn't the best idea. And yeah, it does only control the hazards game for its side, but this means that every non-sab team is forced to rely on strategies other than mindless hazard stacking, which can only be a good thing.

 

[Kav]

Spikes are being spammed on the suspect ladder just because its one of the more obvious ways to take advantage of his disappearance. People are way overexaggerating how difficult it is to get rid of hazards though.

And sab didnt exactly kill hazard stacking teams before the suspect either. The strategy was perfectly viable. You just had to dedicate a slot to taking out stall (which leads back to it being a major constraint on teambuilding).

 

[zbr]

Spikes are being spammed on the suspect ladder just because its one of the more obvious ways to take advantage of his disappearance. People are way overexaggerating how difficult it is to get rid of hazards though. And sab didnt exactly kill hazard stacking teams before the suspect either. The strategy was perfectly viable. You just had to dedicate a slot to taking out stall (which leads back to it being a major constraint on teambuilding).

From this sentence it seems that you don't normally prepare for stall on the ladder. Which is kinda weird considering that the ladder is pretty much filled with stall squads.. I don't think M-Sab is the major constraint on team building. The fact that it doesn't have recovery outside of recover and is as slow as a ferrothorn means that it can easily be outpowered/outmaneuvered. Especially if you're playing against a Stall team running M-Sab. Honestly, if you look at the trends that are going on right before the suspect test, common stall squads stray away from M-Sab on the team. However most of them have Goth on the team because Goth is such a lazy, no-brainer way to deal with threats for stall. Offensive threats can be dealt with by things like M-Sciz / Quag / Clef / Ditto, while Defensive threats are easily neutered by clicking Goth. As a result opposing stall teams not running Goth are at a huge disadvantage because Goth can easily come in multiple times in one game, trap majority of the defensive mons (which prefer to have external healing rather than using shed shell) and win.

tldr - sab isnt the problem here, goth is.