np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - Run The Jewels

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This is pretty much the core of the business here, people hate stall and like lazy team building. Some folks just don't want to take account stall at all when they want to make a HO vs HO one night stands teams for streaming purposes or to cover lunchbreaks.
I'm sorry what?

This whole idea of "you're wrong you're just lazy" is perhaps the most ludicrous anti ban statement I have heard from any suspect test ever. Because it is very clearly based on a lie.

We're not lazy players. Pokemon that limit teambuilding to the extent MSableye does (I mean come on, you're literally forced to use a fairy/specific breaker and it's switchins are relatively limited, particularly with Goth around but it's bad enough on it's own) are blatantly unhealthy for the metagame, and something that makes stall so skill-less (I mean it's less auto-pilot with Gothitelle but it still has a similar teambuilding-limiting effect, and a stagnant metagame is a bad one) isn't very competitive either. We'd never suggest to bad something because "we don't like the play style it promotes", as yes, that is a stupid reason. So please, let's not make out that is what we're saying to make pro ban arguments sound stupid, because that isn't what's being argued. There's a difference between lazy players and a poorly affected metagame due to unhealthy factors in the form of certain Pokemon.

Tune in later when I talk about how important of a factor teambuilding is! (Should be an accurate representation of the metagame, shouldn't be skewed, shouldn't be limited etc, and why)
 

Aberforth

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"Fairy or specific breakers"

First of all, when was using a fairy a bad thing? Clefable is great for a huge number of reasons, not just sableye. Also there are a bunch of Fairies for all playstyles and they are all good choices in OU. Fairy is an excellent defensive typing and a pretty decent offensive typing too.

Second of all, specific breakers for Sableye? No. Lots of breakers break right through Sableye. Its the rest of the stall team they have something that walls them. That is the point of stall, what one mon gets crushed by, another walls. That's the way stall's been since GSC. Non-goth stall teams will often come down to who played better, as can be seen since there were few to no voices to ban sableye (that I heard at least) from the start of Oras until the point where ABR stall became popular, and I'm sure examples of this can be found in the WCOP and SPL replays threads.

EDIT: Since I have no life I decided to go through WCOP replays and find all msab but no goth teams used to get replays for them. Then I realised there were 120 games round 1 so I only went through the first 6 or so groups. If I feel like wasting more of my life I'll go through the other groups and add them to the hide tag.

 
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"Fairy or specific breakers"

First of all, when was using a fairy a bad thing? Clefable is great for a huge number of reasons, not just sableye. Also there are a bunch of Fairies for all playstyles and they are all good choices in OU. Fairy is an excellent defensive typing and a pretty decent offensive typing too.

Second of all, specific breakers for Sableye? No. Lots of breakers break right through Sableye. Its the rest of the stall team they have something that walls them. That is the point of stall, what one mon gets crushed by, another walls. That's the way stall's been since GSC. Non-goth stall teams will often come down to who played better, as can be seen since there were few to no voices to ban sableye (that I heard at least) from the start of Oras until the point where ABR stall became popular, and I'm sure examples of this can be found in the WCOP and SPL replays threads.
See I wasn't actually trying to dismiss the good arguments such as these, all I was trying to do was to point out that our reasoning (which can be explained far better than I have) isn't this "laziness" lie that exists. I mean most of what's been said only ever applies to Sab in this specific metagame but that can be discussed by someone better than me rofl.
 
Haven't posted in one of these in a while, but will give my thoughts. I can not find any way to justify keeping shadow tag, it can be used on way too many Pokemon I mean the only mons that do not get affected by it in OU are basically sableye, gengar and goth. This is a huge difference from mons like dugtrio or magnezone who usually only have about 3 targets. I mean just from personal experience I use breloom a lot and it is very good at dismantling stall but the second it gets a kill, boom dead breloom and now I have no way to beat like half the team. How can I combat this? It takes the game out of my hands unless you suggest running shed shell breloom. Not only that but then goth is literally untouched and is free to take away my ability to switch again later in the game and hinder at least one other member of my team. Even in just a general sense though, shadow tag is just uncompetitive and it is apparent from the very first step which is team-building, if you want to "prepare" for shadow tag you need something like shed shell togekiss+ a pursuit trapper, that is two mons pretty much solely dedicated to handling shadow tag, that just isnt how it should be. I think there is a pretty clear consensus on shadow tag so I will be voting BAN shadow tag, and I think we will get that gone.

The more controversial suspect is mega sableye, the question is "Is sableye-mega indicidually broken/uncompetitive/overcentralizing?" I would say that sableye-mega is not broken or uncompetitive, but is however over centralizing. I think I can best describe my thoughts on this by comparing it loosely to Aegislash, by talking about how many mons sableye just makes unviable, there are obvious ones like medicham gallade, but then it goes way deeper than that, do you guys remember how many stallbreakers used to be at our disposal? We could use so many mons with taunt and status or something and it was good counter play to stall, now instead of preparing for stall we need to prepare for mega sableye and stall, so what used to be able to be handled/prepared for in one slot now takes two or one very unique set. So even though there are plenty of things that can beat sableye like most mons with sub, immune, to willo, fairies, etc... I think sableye is such a unique mon to have to prepare for that it overcentralizes the metagame too much for a single mon, it has too big of an impact on teambuilding and limits usage of previously viable mons single handedly. This is a tough call but I will also be voting BAN on mega sableye.
 
The more controversial suspect is mega sableye, the question is "Is sableye-mega indicidually broken/uncompetitive/overcentralizing?" I would say that sableye-mega is not broken or uncompetitive, but is however over centralizing. I think I can best describe my thoughts on this by comparing it loosely to Aegislash, by talking about how many mons sableye just makes unviable, there are obvious ones like medicham gallade, but then it goes way deeper than that, do you guys remember how many stallbreakers used to be at our disposal? We could use so many mons with taunt and status or something and it was good counter play to stall, now instead of preparing for stall we need to prepare for mega sableye and stall, so what used to be able to be handled/prepared for in one slot now takes two or one very unique set. So even though there are plenty of things that can beat sableye like most mons with sub, immune, to willo, fairies, etc... I think sableye is such a unique mon to have to prepare for that it overcentralizes the metagame too much for a single mon, it has too big of an impact on teambuilding and limits usage of previously viable mons single handedly. This is a tough call but I will also be voting BAN on mega sableye.
I feel like you're contradicting yourself here.

You're saying there are plenty of things that can beat Sableye but then proceed to say that it overcentralizes the Meta.

I mean going by viability ranks alone, the other 3 S-Ranks alone have favorable matchups against up.
 
I feel like you're contradicting yourself here.

You're saying there are plenty of things that can beat Sableye but then proceed to say that it overcentralizes the Meta.

I mean going by viability ranks alone, the other 3 S-Ranks alone have favorable matchups against up.
Well S rank mons are S rank because they have favorable matchups verse most things, so thats not saying much. But I guess my point is that you could say the same thing about aegislash that plenty of mons could beat him, but its not about those mons, its about the mons that cant be used just for fear of ever running into mega sableye, it perpetuates the already known matchup problem we have in OU. So if anything banning mega sableye will lessen the games that are won from matchup and create a more competitve and enjoyable meta
 
My first post in a thread yay!
I think its great smogon is listening to the community's complaints about stall. I personally think that shadow tag is the biggest problem as it traps a majority of the mons that can counter stall and can even be a huge threat when not used in conjunction with msab. (See Profesional2341's rmt) Not to mention it makes you resort to using shed shell on non steel types in hopes of avoiding getting 6-0d by stall. Shed shell is basically a wasted item slot in every other match up. I strongly believe shadow tag needs to go.

As for Msab I'm a bit unsure. It is without a doubt meta defining but i think it owes much of its success to goth. I believe smogon should ban s tag and then wait to see if msab is still a huge problem. On the other hand it can completely 6-0 offense and its variants if played right which means all you see on the high ladder is stall and balance which can get a tad boring. In conclusion once i (hopefully) get my reqs i am for sure voting ban s-tag and reluctantly voting ban m sab
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/unorthodoxd-zygarde-semi-stall-peaked-1-1960-elo.3555939/
 
Well S rank mons are S rank because they have favorable matchups verse most things, so thats not saying much. But I guess my point is that you could say the same thing about aegislash that plenty of mons could beat him, but its not about those mons, its about the mons that cant be used just for fear of ever running into mega sableye, it perpetuates the already known matchup problem we have in OU. So if anything banning mega sableye will lessen the games that are won from matchup and create a more competitve and enjoyable meta
When I said S-Rank alone, I was implying that just not only are there S-Ranks Pokemon handle it but their are definitely other top and commonly used Pokemon that handle Mega-Sableye just fine. (And for the record, Aegislash did not have a lot of Pokemon that could reliably beat it but I'm not going to get into that)

That a good amount of commonly used offensive threats can muscle through Mega Sableye begs the question on how its suddenly overcentralizing. Oh its not because of Mega-Sableye. Its because its being paired with Shadow Tag.

What mon are you talking about that people can't be used are we talking about? Preferably I'm expecting a list from you including a lot of good Pokemon like how Aegislash prevented Jirachi and Starmie from being run.
 
Shadow Tag needs to go without a doubt. As far as the people arguing Wob should stay, you can almost mindlessly throw it in with custap/destiny bond and immediately remove a threat to your win condition. You can argue the what about taunt Gyarados or insert another mon here with non attacking move but that is forcing you to run things you may not optimally otherwise run in case Wob shows up.

I'm not entirely convinced Mega Sab needs to go. I haven't really decided how I feel about banning it yet.

I have seen people saying set up sweepers can just set up in it's face. Well almost all the physical sweepers are going to fear the wisp so that's not entirely true.

It's ability to control hazards so well as well as crippling somewhere near half the sweepers possibly trying to break through stall teams with wisps makes it nearly impossible to overcome on stall teams if you don't specifically have something prepared for it.

I do think there is a bit of a problem with players wanting to mindlessly throw out stealth rock/spikes. A ton of players just throw their hazard setter out first no matter the other team has and it's just sad.
 
Sorry to quote the entire post, but could you give examples of the advantages the other ST users would give in to almost every team in OU if Goth was banned? Sorry for repeating this but I can't understand why one pokemon is causing an entire group of pokemon to get shipped to Ubers.
Encore can still be used on a passive or utility pokemon to lock it into a move, gaining similar momentum to Goth. Further, as others have pointed out, Counter/Mirror Coat and Custap Destiny bond make Wob a fairly severe anti-offense threat too - different to Gothitelle but similar in that it can quite trivially take out other pokemon (remembering that Counter and Mirror Coat double the HP damage done, as Wob has huge HP and middling defenses this easily overwhelms a ton of stuff in OU - and then there's the Custap Destiny Bond for when the HP us low enough to faint something else).

Is it as bad as Gothitelle - probably not. Is it still bad enough to be banned? I'd say it still has huge ease of use and offers more advantages to the player than the cost of putting it haphazardly on a team - ergo, yes I think it's still bad enough to be banned.
 
Well S rank mons are S rank because they have favorable matchups verse most things, so thats not saying much. But I guess my point is that you could say the same thing about aegislash that plenty of mons could beat him, but its not about those mons, its about the mons that cant be used just for fear of ever running into mega sableye, it perpetuates the already known matchup problem we have in OU. So if anything banning mega sableye will lessen the games that are won from matchup and create a more competitve and enjoyable meta
When I said S-Rank alone, I was implying that just not only are there S-Ranks Pokemon handle it but their are definitely other top and commonly used Pokemon that handle Mega-Sableye just fine. (And for the record, Aegislash did not have a lot of Pokemon that could reliably beat it but I'm not going to get into that)

That a good amount of commonly used offensive threats can muscle through Mega Sableye begs the question on how its suddenly overcentralizing. Oh its not because of Mega-Sableye. Its because its being paired with Shadow Tag.

What mon are you talking about that people can't be used are we talking about? Preferably I'm expecting a list from you including a lot of good Pokemon like how Aegislash prevented Jirachi and Starmie from being run.
OK to address this.
I personally think that putting sableye in the same boat as Aegislash is quite a blasphemy on its own.

The first reason is opportunity cost, while there was no reason to not run Aegislash, mega sableye has to mega evolve to go from decent bulk to good and it comes with a slow on its ability to reliably heal or burn stuff, this also means you are losing the use of another mega Pokémon BTW.

Second, both have access to reliable stab with neutral coverage, but again sableye is used as a win con to abuse it, it doesn't pose an immediate threat on its own and it is immediately recognizable that foul play it's too match up reliant to be 100% usable if he is used as the win con of its team, although foul play is a valid option to stop DD zard X or tflame from abusing you as set up fooder, but there are better options on stall that don't require you to jeopardize your moveset.

Third pivoting with typing and fairy types, steel type vs dark type, even with sableye immediate fix to avoid being toxic he is still a subject to secondary poison measures, it is limited in its amount of switch ins due to neutral damage way more with ghost/dark than ghost/steel was. This is extremely important as it exacerbates stall playstyle weakness against common wallbreakers, sableye is very limited on the amount of times it can switch even on neutral hits. This is alleviated by gothitrap up to the point it is suspect worthy, without it however it has a tendency to stick out like a sore thumb.

I could go on with sableye being a very good one trick pony given how passive it is, and how Aegislash had the ability to run different sets and items(air ballon, LO, leftovers) while still being fully functional as a pivot, but that is an add on to the qualities already stated and would be beating the horse too much, I can't honestly compare Aegislash to msableye even though both are S rank mons that can't be trapped reliably, pursuit still hits them but no one would risk to switch in a pursuit user on Aegislash without scouting or on WoW central, and no physical houndoom doesn't count.

I don't think I can't compare the strain on team building both have either, sableye is a deterrent to teams that want to put hazards on turn one all the time, or that straight up depend on them, yet it doesn't completely stops the hazard game altogether given sableye nature of being really susceptible to chip damage to a decent chunk of offensive SR users if they are saved to midgame. Whereas Aegislash being a Pokemon able to run items without the need to compromise it's mega pretty much meant it could be on every team all the time without much thought about it, and that completely invalidated some species from OU.

Here we are seeing an issue caused by a Pokemon being able to destroy counters and checks, making another Pokémon look better than it actually is, and that's goth to be honest, I can't straight up say it chooses what to remove like Greninja, but I can assure you that her presence on team preview is deterrent already for certain Pokémon to even hit the field given how an item is required to prevent her from sniping a desired target(heck I tend to run energy ball to remove Diancie and quaggy immediately even thought quaggy can't do much back to goth, that's a mega that poses a huge threat to stall removed without much thought).
 
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'Sableye makes the matchup issues worse' yes this is true and it's not because of Sableye alone. It's because as today there are about 500+ potential threats out there and six slots are no near enough to make a really solid team. No matter what there will be something ready to shit on your team.

If anything you should first prepare for the S tier theats giving less priority to the random Beedril and Toxicroak

Checks to Sableye and mons who can break it are commonly seen in the tier, you make it look like you need CB Relicanth to take it down
 
The more controversial suspect is mega sableye, the question is "Is sableye-mega indicidually broken/uncompetitive/overcentralizing?" I would say that sableye-mega is not broken or uncompetitive, but is however over centralizing. I think I can best describe my thoughts on this by comparing it loosely to Aegislash, by talking about how many mons sableye just makes unviable, there are obvious ones like medicham gallade, but then it goes way deeper than that, do you guys remember how many stallbreakers used to be at our disposal? We could use so many mons with taunt and status or something and it was good counter play to stall, now instead of preparing for stall we need to prepare for mega sableye and stall, so what used to be able to be handled/prepared for in one slot now takes two or one very unique set. So even though there are plenty of things that can beat sableye like most mons with sub, immune, to willo, fairies, etc... I think sableye is such a unique mon to have to prepare for that it overcentralizes the metagame too much for a single mon, it has too big of an impact on teambuilding and limits usage of previously viable mons single handedly.
1. Sableye is nowhere near Aegislash in terms of overcentralization. Aegislash can setup faster, has better bulk, better typing (debatable), and hit much, much harder than M-Sable could ever hope to do (also, there was King's Shield.) Truth is, that Aegi had significantly less counters, and forced a lot of Pokes that had no business running EQ to run it, because 1 free turn for Aegi meant a potential sweep. I think you are comparing apples to oranges here, unless I misinterpreted.

2. I don't understand why having a single Pokémon that dismantles stall with no opposition is such an ideal scenario. The fact that M-Sable actually gives stall players a fighting chance is a positive thing for a playstyle that has to constantly put up with extremely retarded stuff like Manaphy, M-Medi, M-Meta, and co.

3. Ask a stall player how many checks/counters they have to use to prevent stuff like BU Talonflame, Manaphy, M-Gardy, M-Zard X, etc. from munching all over their teams. And even then, ask them how many other holes they create because 6 slots cannot take on the whole metagame.

How is offense preparing for M-Sable any different? It's Pokémon.
 
Some things I wanted to further clarify:

1) To say that Shadow Tag was fine and peachy until Mega Sableye came along ignores the fact that there were many other more immediate threats that had to be handled first (Landorus-I, Aegislash, Greninja) When you have immediately threatening Pokemon that were capable of stymieing defensive teams all on their own, the concept of trapping and whittling down specific Pokemon was not as important as other priorities.

2) People who promote Mega Sableye being removed from the game claim that its presence alone forces teams to run specific Pokemon to run otherwise unoptimal sets or risk losing at Teambuilder without explicitly saying what is it about Mega Sableye that forces this upon the other team. Is it the fact that it is a bulky Magic Bouncer that has immunities to three common attacking types? Is it the fact that the other team instantly crumbles when Stealth Rocks don't get put up because otherwise it doesn't have enough power to break through the defensive Pokemon that commonly support Mega Sableye? Is it the risk of Will-o-Wisp + Knock Off on a Pokemon that can't be Taunted? Just saying how much Mega Sableye forces other people to run specific strategies is unfounded when the onus is on the pro-ban side to prove not only why Mega Sableye's presence alone prevents other Pokemon from being used (as opposed to said Pokemon's own shortcomings), but why the absence of hazards is such a detrimental factor (Who dictates that a competitive Pokemon game necessarily requires Stealth Rock to be present at all times? Stealth Rock and Spikes can easily cripple teams that use pivoting as their strategy, and it will obviously be in their interest to use as many threats to discourage the use of hazard laying as possible).

3) Considering the problems are exacerbated when Mega Sableye and Gothitelle are paired together, something that needs to be considered is the fact that Gothitelle (and by extension the other trappers) instantly nullify the concept of a lure and provide completely free switches to other teammates that make fighting Mega Sableye so much harder. Pokemon that commonly run hazards such as Heatran, Landorus-T, and Garchomp can very viably run offensive sets that threaten Mega Sableye in ways the defensive sets cannot (Life Orb, Sub + Swords Dance). The very presence of Gothitelle on the team removes that possibility by Tricking Choice Scarves onto them, a tactic that succeeds against every single Pokemon under Base 121 Speed and isn't a Mega. Even if Gothitelle dies without removing the Pokemon in question, it reduces the other Pokemon to one move which is usually completely walled by the rest of the team. More importantly, Pokemon that might have been able to muscle past Mega Sableye with an offensive item now lose to it because they are now not strong enough to get past it. Again, this is completely unavoidable and removes a large segment of strategy from the game.

The free switches Shadow Tag users bring is also a problem because any strategy that had succeeded in putting hazards on the field or statusing Mega Sabeleye can be completely unraveled by allowing the Shadow Tag user to bring in the Defogger/Heal Beller for free on a Pokemon that can't threaten it. In teams with Mega Sableye and no Shadow Tag, there isn't anything stopping the other team from using smart double switching to threaten Pokemon attempting to remove hazards or cure status that understandably took a lot of effort to lay in the first place. With Shadow Tag, the defensive team can switch in Gothitelle or Wobbufett on anyone that can't harm Pokemon like Skarmory or Chansey, and without any effort, bring in these Pokemon because they know that the other player can't double switch to someone that threatens them. Facing Mega Sableye on its own is bad enough- when you know you can bring in Chansey and pass Wishes to Mega Sableye with nearly no opportunity cost because your Gothitelle/Wobbufett trapped a Pokemon you know can't harm Chansey, it makes facing Mega Sableye that much more difficult.
 
I haven't been on the "better players" in OU but I guess I'll leave my opinions.

On MSable, I think this thing has to be banned. It's been a split decision for me on this but seeing how well it's gotten over the course of a few weeks or months, I guess a ban's worthy. It has the reputation of singlehandedly reviving stall, so I guess we already have an idea of how great this thing is. The reason why I think so is that it checks a multitude of Pokemon in the meta already, like almost all Psychics without Fairy coverage, most physical attackers, some balance builds and hazards stacking. Also, its movepool is not too shabby with things from Foul Play to Protect to Toxic to Metal Burst, which greatly complements its typing, bulk and ability. In most cases, if you pack a check like, say, Heatran, the team it's on will almost always bring a check/counter to it, or worse, your said check is sub-optimal in a way that other playstyles (or even worse, its teammates) will stomp through it. Also, it limits you to a lot of stuff - for example, you always have to think twice in even using a Pokemon that Sableye checks/counters, like Mega Medicham.

tl;dr MSable has all the tools (and teammates) it needs to reliably check (or even counter) most of the metagame, so I guess ban.

Now, for the Shadow Tag issue. I gotta say ban on this, too. As said before, Shadow Tag takes away an integral part of 'mons which is switching. First, your only way out is by Ghost-types, Volt Switch and U-Turn types of moves and the honestly niche Shed Shell. This often limits you to completely smart playing or running a VoltTurn or momentum team of sorts. Second, its users Gothitelle (and Gothorita to some extent) and Wobbuffet (and Wynaut to some extent) excel a lot in reliably taking down Pokemon all by themselves; Wobb for most offensive mons and Goth for the passive ones. Also, the rise of SableGoth put a massive constraint in teambuilding recently.

tl;dr STag trappers are honestly good enough, and MSable made it better

With that I can say we should ban both of them. I honestly am not into ladder so I'll let the voters decide on this. I missed some other argument points but I guess that covers all I want to say right now.
 
It has the reputation of singlehandedly reviving stall, so I guess we already have an idea of how great this thing is. [reasons Msab is good]

In most cases, if you pack a check like, say, Heatran, the team it's on will almost always bring a check/counter to it,

or worse, your said check is sub-optimal in a way that other playstyles (or even worse, its teammates) will stomp through it. Also, it limits you to a lot of stuff - for example, you always have to think twice in even using a Pokemon that Sableye checks/counters, like Mega Medicham.
I kinda have some issues with this. I'm not gonna argue Sableye doesn't carry stall - Stall has occasionally wheezed a death rattle since XY, and if each new game brings out more viable Mega Wallbreakers, it days are probably numbered. There's only so much you can stop in six slots, and stopping threats is what stall does. That's practically its win con. MSableye helps out stall by patching up some of its weaknesses, both to specific threats and to hazards in general, providing an excellent support role via stats, ability, typing and movepool, like you've said and like many other people have said. But! That doesn't necessarily make it broken? Sure, it checks and counters a lot. But it's a very highly ranked Pokemon on a Stall team, so that's a given. There's nothing intrinsically wrong about checking and countering a lot. Lots of Pokemon do that. And if it carries a dying playstyle, that's not in itself broken either. We could argue MSableye provides too much support to it, sure, but you could also argue that it balances out Stall's increasingly worrying flaws.

Additionally, most team styles if not all of them have several viable outs to Sableye; having to use Garchomp/Clefable/Heatran is hardly a penance, and there are more besides - I'm just noting those for their SR capabilities. It's not like Baton pass where teams would have to run Quagsire or HazeNinja despite shitty matchups across the board caused by using these mons. It's just not a very strong point to build a pro-ban case. Working more on the last bit about limiting during team building is probably a better angle, but you haven't gone into much detail. To an extent, this happens for all high-rank Pokemon? You have to think twice about slapping on a Chesnaught or Serperior in fear of Talonflame or Heatran, for example.

And finally (related), the counter-play thing, that your MSableye counter/check will in turn be checked/countered by a team mate... That's just good building! Unless that thing doing the counter-countering is Gothitelle of course because that's a real can of worms :V
 

bludz

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This. In my own opinion, and you don't have to agree, THIS is what's wrong with OU (actually, Pokemon in general) since the release of Diamond and Pearl.

I thought the point of Smogon bans was to take over-centralizing threats out of a tier? Is that wrong?

Then, by that logic, isn't Sableye-Mega the best cure to the most centralizing thing in Pokemon these days?

If more and more people use Sableye-Mega, then maybe, just MAYBE people will stop uncreatively spamming Stealth Rock and rely on their brains instead.
The point of bans is to remove broken or uncompetitive stuff. Being an overcentralizing threat is only one part of this. I don't want to get into a whole issue about whether Stealth Rock is the right thing for the metagame because this isn't really the place for it, but please tell me in what way do you want me to be creative about using Stealth Rock? Do I need to run Will-O-Wisp Heatran to Flash Fire boost myself on Mega Sableye to force it out? Should I be running SR Mold Breaker Excadrill or Mega Diancie?

These are "creative" ways to set Stealth Rock, but they're also fairly poor options (barring Heatran I guess but it might want another moveslot) every time you don't go up against Sableye. For comparison, this is like when people were suggesting Float Stone Slowbro to beat Grass Knot Metagross. Granted, that example is far more extreme and totally stupid, but the point is how far we have to go to adapt to a certain threat. For Charizard X, something we consider to be one of the biggest threats in the tier, teams have to adjust by packing checks to it. However this doesn't mean using wonky lures or subpar sets on every team just to prevent it from doing its job - standard sets of certain pokemon such as Hippowdon will do just fine. I get that running standard all day every day is boring but the fact is that you should be allowed to run standard things and get away with it - they're standard because they're the best sets for X, Y and Z reasons. Standard stuff is always going to exist, creativity shouldn't be your primary concern with the metagame unless it's completely stale and nobody runs lures or anything non-standard at all which clearly isn't the case right now.
 
The point of bans is to remove broken or uncompetitive stuff. Being an overcentralizing threat is only one part of this. I don't want to get into a whole issue about whether Stealth Rock is the right thing for the metagame because this isn't really the place for it, but please tell me in what way do you want me to be creative about using Stealth Rock? Do I need to run Will-O-Wisp Heatran to Flash Fire boost myself on Mega Sableye to force it out? Should I be running SR Mold Breaker Excadrill or Mega Diancie?

These are "creative" ways to set Stealth Rock, but they're also fairly poor options (barring Heatran I guess but it might want another moveslot) every time you don't go up against Sableye. For comparison, this is like when people were suggesting Float Stone Slowbro to beat Grass Knot Metagross. Granted, that example is far more extreme and totally stupid, but the point is how far we have to go to adapt to a certain threat. For Charizard X, something we consider to be one of the biggest threats in the tier, teams have to adjust by packing checks to it. However this doesn't mean using wonky lures or subpar sets on every team just to prevent it from doing its job - standard sets of certain pokemon such as Hippowdon will do just fine. I get that running standard all day every day is boring but the fact is that you should be allowed to run standard things and get away with it - they're standard because they're the best sets for X, Y and Z reasons. Standard stuff is always going to exist, creativity shouldn't be your primary concern with the metagame unless it's completely stale and nobody runs lures or anything non-standard at all which clearly isn't the case right now.
I get what you said, but the point of this is to say isn't SR to hindering for a lot of stuff to stall? Knock Off is everywhere too, and are Steels are running shed shells that keep as from dying to simple the MagDiancie(M) core so why isn't it fair to us to have something to be able to sorta deal with this? Sable(M)Talon is really one of the few things keeping stall alive anymore with the plentiful wall breakers such as Serperior, Manaphy, Talonflame, Lopunny, Thunderus-T, both Charizard forms, and the ect. And then there's the fact that there are plenty of Megas that break Sableye and cannot be trick scarfed and kill both these common threats. Whats the point of allowing SR all the time when it just worsens match up even more?
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
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Suspects are done to make sure the metagame is healthy, but that doesn't mean we have to try to balance the viability of all playstyles. A healthy/balanced metagame does not necessarily mean that stall, balance and offense are all equally viable. Thus, we shouldn't be hesitant to ban stuff on the basis of "oh stall will die without it."

That said you'll notice I never said I am pro-ban on Sablenite. I am simply excited to play this ladder because I want to be able to run defensive Lando-T, Hippo, Ferrothorn, etc without having to worry about being cockblocked. If it ends up being too chaotic with all the hazard stacking then I will take that into account when making my decision assuming I meet the requirements to vote.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
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Why is the supposed hazard stacking issue even an argument against a ban when we have Defog and didn't have Mega Sableye before ORAS? Serious question here.

We lived with it before and we can live with it again, esspecially since, last time I checked, XY was considered a solid meta towards the end of its life. This is oddly similar to those stupid old anti-ban arguments for Aegislash where some feared Mega Medicham and co. would dominate the meta once it left.
 
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I thought I'd mention that ElGomo managed to get top tier by hazard stacking (with a really nice archetypal hazard stacking team at that, see here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/hazard-stacking-balance-by-gomo-1787-peak.3550849/) before the Sablenite suspect was put in place. This is in no way saying that hazard stacking these days with Mega Sableye out there is easy, just that there is empirical evidence that it has been done successfully (and reasonably recently) without a great deal of over compensation for Sableye as a threat (Gomo states it's the reason banded Victini is on the team, however it's not like Victini is some sort of trash pokemon with no other use in the first place - to me it seems "normal" team building has taken place to account for a top OU threat).

Part of the reason why Deo-D was banned was that it was just too easy to hazard stack and use something like Bisharp to get a nasty boost of the back of that (not to say that we'd have a return to that if Sablenite was banned, just to demonstrate that the opposite end of the spectrum is equally unhealthy). If Mega Sableye presents an obstacle to trivial hazard stacking, yet does not prevent a team for reaching the top of the tier by using those tactics, to me that represents a balanced and healthy situation. If hazard stacking was completely dead due to Mega Sableye then I think that would be a good case for a ban, but empirically here is a team that still used that strategy to great affect.

I thought I'd make mention of it more to substantiate arguments, as it's nice to have a clear example when discussing these issues rather than rampant speculation.
 
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Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
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I'm going to make my standpoint on Shadow Tag very clear in this post, and I know for a fact that I am going to get a lot of backlash for what I am going to say. So before I make my post I'm going to say that I don't want to completely derail the thread. Please don't get hotheaded if you choose to respond to me, and I am giving express permission for anyone to flat out sling abuse at me through PM during the next few days - just don't derail the thread to do so. Anyway, here goes nothing.

I don't think that Shadow Tag itself should be banned. While I respect why it is on suspect, and I get the stigma surrounding it, I personally don't really understand why Shadow Tag should be considered noncompetitive while other trapping abilities get of scot-free (I will elaborate on this better than this during my post, so don't let this crappy first paragraph put you off). STag is being suspected on the basis that it prevents the opponent from switching out... but doesn't this also apply to Arena Trap and Magnet Pull?

While I'm not saying that we need to ban Magnet Pull any time soon, the point I was trying to make there was that it is not actually the trapping element of this game which I feel is problematic. At the end of the day, switching out is one mechanic and having an ability that prevents doing so is another. We are on a fourth generation of Magneton/Magnezone trapping steels and Dugtrio trapping anything grounded, and they neither have or ever will get the same treatment as I see today with Shadow Tag. Why? There is one reason:

The mechanic of switch prevention is only as noncompetitive/broken as its user.

As far as users of trapping abilities go in all stages of generation 6 OU, there have been six viable users (Mega Gengar, Gothitelle, Wobbuffet, Dugtrio, Magnezone and Magneton) and two which only see use on tri/quad trapper teams (Gothorita and Wynaut). In PU, we have Trapinch, and I won't bring up LC as it is out of the "hierarchy" of tiers. Of these nine Pokemon, one has been banned (Mega Gengar), and two are hated by the OU community (Gothitelle and Gothorita). What do these three have in common, and what makes the other six different? The difference is this: Mega Gengar, Gothitelle and Gothorita are all capable of doing more than just trap.

In my opinion, a trapper is only a problem if it is capable of either beating all archetypes without sacrificing effectiveness or if it can actively take advantage of what it traps without sacrificing effectiveness. Gengar's ability to both outpace and eliminate basically everything not blob-shaped in the tier made it broken/noncompetitive as a supporter, while Gothitelle and Gothorita's ability to cripple the opponent's answer to stall with TrickScarf while also potentially taking advantage of them with Calm Mind makes them noncompetitive. These are not healthy Pokemon for the metagame. However, these are the only things that give switch prevention this percieved noncompetitiveness. Beyond this, trappers need to either sacrifice effectiveness to take advantage of what is trapped While you could argue that Magnezone is uncompetitive due to its ability to abuse Ferrothorn with its fifth gen Sub+Charge Beam set, the argument mostly falls apart because, unlike Gothitelle, it needs to sacrifice important tools, such as Choice Scarf, that make it more consistent when its not trapping something. While Wobbuffet can use its fast set with Tickle and Encore to bring basically any wall into KO range for Pursuit, it sacrifices the ability to consistently combat offense in the process, and it comes at the cost of the ability to use Safeguard or Destiny Bond to improve its supportive capabilities. If it uses its bulky set, it struggles v.s. anything which doesn't have trouble with CounterCoat, and while the support it provides for sweepers is something to consider it does not guarantee victory in the same way that Gothitelle does. Dugtrio's frailness stops it from actively taking advantage of what it traps, and it struggles to break anything which isn't either extremely frail or weak to one of Earthquake or Reversal while being foiled for the most part by Stealth Rock. I could continue with Magneton and Trapinch (I think Wynaut comes under the Bulky Wobb description tbh), but you get the picture.

What I am trying to get across here is that there are six trappers which do not face the same charges as Gothitelle and Gengar do. This is where I think the idea that preventing switching isn't competitive reaches a roadblock, because as much as you try you won't find many reasons to convict Dugtrio or Magnezone of the same charges as Gothitelle beyond "it trapped and killed my Heatran/Ferrothorn", but having them available to trap Heatran and Ferrothorn contradicts the logic plugged onto Shadow Tag. The counterplay for them is the same as it is for Gothitelle (escape with a Shed Shell), yet suddenly Shadow Tag is deemed noncompetitive due to one Pokemon while they get sidelined.

Don't get me wrong: I have been waiting a long time for Gothitelle to be put on the chopping block and I hate it as much as the next guy. However, I don't personally think it has been put on at the right angle; you could say it is being cut into triangles as opposed to even slices. I personally think that trapping is a lot like Swift Swim in early BW (and, as of recently, weatherspeed as a whole in gen 5) in that there is no simple ban that actually fixes the problem in an ideal way. We could ban a specific element of it, but that would have unnecessary collateral damage as a result. My next paragraph is acting as a bit of an illustration to aid my comparison, so bare with me.

Before Alderon's proposal in BW, the problem faced was that banning Swift Swim would lead to unneccessary nerfing of weather in lower tiers, banning Drizzle would lead to a decrease in viable archetype options, banning all Pokemon with Swift Swim would lead to dumb bans like Luvidisc while also unnecessarily depriving lower tiers of certain Pokemon, and banning individual Swift Swimmers would lead to too large a pool of Pokemon being banned. A similar situation is visible with both Shadow Tag and trapping. Banning trapping abilities as a whole leads to heavy collateral damage and banning Shadow Tag leads to collateral damage and banning consistently viable and competitive Pokemon+sub-playstyles (Wobbuffet+wobboffense/wobbalance, which has enough flaws to constitute as not being noncompetitive) and banning Gothitelle and Gothorita leads to PU losing Pokemon unnecessarily (although it isn't like its losing an entire playstyle with it gone or anything, as goth is extremely mediocre in PU tbh). There is no "right" answer.

I don't want to derail the thread by discussing future suspects (I can think of something which balances Gothitelle, but I won't bring it up as that basically counts as discussing a future suspect), and I need to go somewhere - so I will just say this: merely banning Shadow Tag does not achieve the desirable outcome, while the supposedly noncompetitive aspect of trapping is contradicted by the presence of other trappers. In my opinion, there is no way of achieving a perfect fix of the problem without utilising a complex ban, much like with Baton Pass clause and Alderon's proposal. Trapping as both a strategy and mechanic is not noncompetitive, but rather the issue comes from how it is utilised and what is utilising it.

I will close out by saying this:
I personally do not think that Shadow Tag should be banned
I hope I have gotten through to at least one person, and I completely understand if you do not agree with me. I don't want to completely derail the thread with this post, so please be sensible, and thank you anyone who took the time to read this long-ass post.
 

AM

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gamer boy STAGs scope of what it is able to trap and the users of it is a higher extreme than the implication that all trapping falls under the same spectrum as STAG, hint, they don't. Pretty much every point you stated we acknowledged when deciding what to actually suspect. For the betterment of the meta we're reviewing STAG along with M-Sableye. There's been plenty of valid points but implying a complex ban isn't one of them.

This is, 4th + time I've addressed this? Yeah, mods can direct users to this and my previous comments when they refer to complex banning here whichever feels suitable to provide reasoning. I won't be responding to posts similar to gamer boys post about asking for complex bans or anything similar.

Ladder and get reqs, that's what matters here in the end.
 
I want to address a few issues in this post, and do not feel like repeating what other posts said. Please bear with me if this post infringes on your dearly held opinions because I am stating my own.

On Shadow Tag: This is a tough one. On one hand Gothitelle is extremely unhealthy and uncompetitive, while on the other hand a rather harmless Pokemon in Wyanut needs to get the banhammer. Gothitelle, as I will address later, is the issue here and I would like to see it go. And since I haven't got a convincing argument aside from theorymon (replay please) where wynaut appears to be uncompetitive, I have the right to not be convinced about its capabilities. Since the moderators repeatedly stated that we are not willing to complex ban, I will vote to ban Shadow Tag. Hopefully, find some good justification to ban Wynaut but Goth is such a big problem now that I am willing to remove a few other mons just to get it out.

On Mega Sableye: This is going to be the meat of this post. This mon has only been a problem ever since the rise of Goth stall, which I believe has exacerbated the issue of mega Sableye. We have a clouded view of what they do individually because all we know about the issue is that the two in conjunction are broken. Our goal of this suspect test is to establish which of the two is the problem in the metagame and ban the one that will lead to a better metagame. I have concluded that the issue here is Gothitelle and that Mega Sableye is its partner in crime, not the other way around. For example in BW when we banned Landorus, Tyranitar was one of the best mons to support it since it trapped all of its best counters. But we banned Landorus, not Tyranitar because it was the mon that led to an unbalanced metagame. Say we had removed Tyranitar (lol), Landorus would have been a little more manageable but it would still be the menace it had always been. Drawing a parallel to the situation at hand, Gothitelle brings out the broken characteristics in Sableye and if goth is gone, sableye will be a lot more manageable. However, if we banned just Sableye, it wouldn't change much; Gothitelle would continue to wreck havoc in teams and we would end up having another suspect test at the end.

So far in this post I have eliminated three outcomes: Ban Sableye, Ban None, Ban Both.

That leaves us with one: Ban Shadow Tag.

Mega Sableye can easily be dealt with. A lot of the bad ban arguments have been "I can't hazard stack, so ban this thing". You need something better than this. Mega Sableye in fact prevents hazard stacking offense from dominating the meta. Without a trapper, there is an incredible variety of pokemon that terrorize Sableye and its partners. Gardevoir, SD talonflame (non foul play), Taunt Gyarados, (RD) Manaphy (6-0s stall), Zard Y, DD Zard X (non foul play), Clefable, Heal Bell Altaria, and many more. If you feel "forced to run one of these" then welcome to pokemon, where you lose if you don't check threats. Mega Sableye doesn't force you to run obscure sets like Scarf Greninja or Float Stone Slowbro, it allows you to use common pokemon which you might already have on your team. It is an S ranked threat, you need to prepare for it like you do for Zard-X, and in my opinion harder to prepare for than something like Manaphy but I will leave that for another time. 3 S ranked threats beat it. If you think you are forced to run an S rank mon or a ton of A+ or A mons to check it, then maybe this isn't the right game for you.

I would like to conclude this post by saying that not a single player possesses the "right to lay hazards" and I don't think that has ever been a part of the smogon banning philosophy. There are a myriad of ways to check sableye and Goth is the problematic mon that prevents players from using those common checks therefore it should go.
 
IMO, Shadow Tag shouldn't be banned.

There is enough Checks and Counters in the OU tier to deal with Pokemon like Gothitelle. Everytime I play Showdown, someone always has mons like: Latios, Latias, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Scizor, and etc. on there team to handle it. If Gothitelle is used to cripple mons like Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and other stall threats, then I don't mind.

MSab on the other hand is a problem. Having not 1 but 2 useful abilities in Prankster and Magic Bounce gives it so much momentum in crippling your opponents or preventing hazards.

At least make a clause that states that MSab and Gothitelle can't be used on the same team in the OU tier. Banning them wouldn't solve the problem.
 
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