np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - Run The Jewels

[Kav]

Reading this thread I learnt that the stall player can easily cover sableyes weaknesses with the other 5 slots while the offensive player plays only with one pokemon with which either he 6-0s the stall team (which is possible anyways, Manaphy cough cough) or loses.

its not exactly fair to compare a player using his 5 extra slots to cover every matchup to a player whose last slot is dictated heavily by basically one team. not that manaphy and other wallbreakers are bad mons but its not like you can just slap it onto a team to beat stall and not expect to open up problems against other types of teams.

even so HO already could have a pretty solid matchup against stall already since the entire team is geared to put out huge damage. bigger problems can arise for things like balance which can really only afford to dedicate one slot to wallbreaking, which is why goth is such a pest for it.

 

[Anacleto]

suspects tend to always be filled with HO most of the time since it is fast to ladder with, not everyone does it but yh.

I know, like I said I was referring to the pre-suspect-ladder. Stall was a shit tier playstyle; sableye made it undeniably better but not on par in viability with the other playstyles.

 

[Sir Azelf]

Got reqs so time to post something.
The suspect ladder was a blur of Azelf/Suicide leads, HO spike stacking, Medicham spam, insults for playing stall, getting swept by RDTG manaphy 10 or so times (why haven't we banned that thing yet?), and the 3 other stall teams I faced and lost to. Given the high influx of HO as well as hazard spam, the whole thing felt kind of overwhelming at times. Gothitelle was still there, and it still ripped defensive teams apart with trickscarf stalling. Sadly, I don't remember any Wobbuffets.

Sounds like a riveting metagame dominated by skill, intellect and amazing plays and totally not bias, mindless or unbalanced in any way at all!

On a serious note, I think the fact that you were insulted for using stall speaks volumes about this metagame and the bias of alot of players in regards to this, which also draws up the hilarious coincidence that it is in fact more often than not, those players also have god awful illogical fallacy ridden arguments, but hey "thats none of my business". ;)

On another side note, ive seen ABR'S team with Zard-Y or x, MDos or w/e over msable and goth is STILL just as aids with or without sable. I just find it astounding how people are still blaming sable when the simple fact is if you pair goth with ANY pokemon, its still going to be aids, it still removes what ever the hell it wants to mindlessly make things easier for your team and open up sweeps, cripple basically every wall in the game, remove threats and cripples breakers etc lol. :|

 

[Wheezer]

Ok, sorry. I had some irl problems going on that I was really frustrated with because I can't find answers to them, and it kind of filtered through onto my posts, so I wasn't really the most logical with my posts, sorry for making you list out all of those mons.

Let's get back to the actual argument, if you will allow us to. In this post, I will attempt to address all of the main arguments for keeping Mega Sableye in OU, and show the flaws. If I missed any points or if I did not provide enough support please notify me and I will fix it. I would hope that you all keep in mind that reqs are more difficult to get than ever, unlike the other suspects that we have previously had, so your vote counts so much more this time. Because of this, I suggest that you all approach this suspect with an open mind, and think thoroughly to gain a deeper understanding of what the right decision to make is. If you have thought through all possibilities and viewpoints, then I will understand whatever decision you choose to make.

It is also important to keep in mind that this suspect test is unlike a majority of suspect tests that usually take place, so I would recommend not trying to relate this suspect to any previous ones when making your decision. The main reason behind this is that this suspect has taken place because both Mega Sableye and Gothitelle are found to be uncompetitive, not because the OU Council thought that it was necessarily "broken", or at least not what we usually think of as broken. Most people associate being "broken" with being strong, powerful, impossible to counter, has many potential sets, overcentralizing, etc. Think of other mons that the OU Council has suspected, like Greninja, Landorus-Incarnate, Aegislash, and Mega Mawile; for these reasons, it does not bode well to attempt to associate Mega Sableye with the word "broken". Instead, I advise you to see how Mega Sableye fits into the category of being uncompetitive. Uncompetitive mons take away from skillful aspects of the games such as, switching (Gothitelle), attacking (evasion moves and Swagger), teambuilding (Baton Pass), and with the advant of Mega Sableye, hazards. I believe that switching, attacking, teambuilding, and hazards are all components that are skill-based, and that is what I will be basing my argument on. If you don't believe this things involve skill, I will not attempt to persuade you otherwise. In this post I propose to you that you think about how Mega Sableye may be uncompetitive in the aspects of teambuilding, switching, and hazards. If you are convinced in at least one of these points that it is uncompetitive, I urge you to vote ban on Mega Sableye because these previous uncompetitive mons and ideas have been banned for being uncompetitive in only one category.

Now some of you may argue that hazards do not involve skill because they do not need to be on the field in order to win every game, even though they certainly play a large role in the outcome of the game if played correctly. While this may have some truth to it, I believe that the real reason that preventing hazards is uncompetitive comes from the fact that it does not reward players for making good plays by forcing Mega Sableye stall to switch in and out. Mega Sableye takes out the reward from switching because there are very likely no hazards up on the field to damage any Mega Sableye stall mons. I realize that Mega Sableye will not always prevent hazards, but this is not a good argument to it not being uncompetitive. Baton Pass takes away from the teambuliding component, but not all teams are weak to Baton Pass. In this same way, Mega Sableye has a negative impact on the metagame. Taking away this aspect of reward from the game truly makes Mega Sableye uncompetitive, just like Gothitelle takes away the aspect of switching and is uncompetitive; both of these mons take away large components of skill in the game due to their abilities. Merely forcing Mega Sableye to switch around is not going to be damaging it enough for a player to win. If the Mega Sableye stall is built decently, then it stands to reason that the teambuilder will have counterplay to all of the big threats in OU that they could account for, which usually means the team will be able to deal with all but the most dedicated of stallbreakers, which is a very limited group of mons. Well yes, you could make the argument that teams can run these mons, more often than not it really limits the teambuilding options available to the teambuilder. Mega Sableye dictates teambuilding because of this. Again, this all stems from the fact that Mega Sableye is able to prevent hazards from a large majority of mons with its uncompetitive ability, which is made effective by its stats and typing. Mega Sableye will often be accompanied by mons that will allow it to switch in and out freely, so arguments of "Beating Mega Sableye isn't hard, just use Clefable or Bulk Up Talonflame" fall apart here. Yes, you can run these mons to counter Mega Sableye, but the fact remains that it has five different slots that can support it in its role as being an uncompetitive mon that restricts teambuilding, hazard play, and switching. People will oftentimes put too much focus on Mega Sableye itself and not look at the big picture. Quite a few people have trouble getting to this big picture viewpoint, but if you are able to you can see that Mega Sableye is uncompetitive. Another argument that I have seen some people use as their reasoning for not banning Mega Sableye is that they do not have any troubles when playing against it. Well, this argument is actually really flawed because people try to relate to the wrong thing. For suspects that were based on the mon being "broken" this logic may have applied. However, in this suspect the argument is Mega Sableye being uncompetitive. While you may not have had any problems playing against Baton Pass, swagplay, evasion moves, and Gothitelle due to the teams you use or the playstyles you play, it doesn't change the fact that these mons are still uncompetitive. This applies to Mega Sableye in the same way as these potentially uncompetitive mons that ended up being banned.

e:

Hazards being off the field doesn't mean you cant punish switches. Not all obvious switches need to be punished and you have thoroughly failed to convince me that they do

(only quoting this because you told me you didn't explain your post well, and this is the part you explained to me in pms) Ok, but tell me why Mega Sableye has to be uncompetitive in more than those 3 aspects that I listed (hazards, teambuilding, switching) to be banworthy. Just because there are other ways to punish switch-ins on stall does not mean that Mega Sableye isn't uncompetitive in those other aspects. Gothitelle only limits switching really, and it is definitely labeled as uncompetitive and unhealthy for the metagame. Swagplay only limits attacking and it was labeled as uncompetitive for the metagame. Baton Pass only limits teambuilding and it was labeled as uncompetitive. I don't see what changes with Mega Sableye here.

e2:

So then here's what the arguments for it are:


So mindlessly stacking hazards is okay? Seems so much more of a problem really.

Mega Sableye has too much of a force on teambuiling? You have to prepare for the other stuff we have in OU anyhow, IDK how that is too irritating when the checks to it don't solely cover it, if that was the case it would be fair to ban, but its not.

It outclasses other Stall Mega Evos? That is a flawed argument when we have plenty of mega evos, which are still easily ran provided your support can cover it. (Unaware CM Clefable, Bulk Up Talonflame, Sub-Seed Serperior, ect.)

It runs a variety of sets? It has 2, are you telling me something like Garchomp who has 5 (Tank, Mega, SubSD, Scarf, LO Mixed) is easier to prepare for, if so your insane

1. if you think "mindlessly stacking hazards" is what the result will be, not going to try to convince you otherwise, just want to address your other points quick
2. The way you word this is a little confusing, but I will do my best to try to respond to this. you say

IDK how that is too irritating when the checks to it don't solely cover it

I am not sure what point you are making here. It sounds like you are just further proving my point because you said the checks to it don't solely cover it. Well, this is actually worded wrong too, because if you were supporting the ban on Mega Sableye, it would more-so be something along the lines of "unlike other mons, you cannot beat Mega Sableye with just one mon because it can just switch in when it needs to prevent hazards, and switch out when its counter/check comes in, and it won't be punished at all for this because hazards are not up". I hope this makes sense to you because I do not exactly understand what point you were trying to make here.
3. just read this post here I made in the stall thread and it explains why it limits other megas from actually being used on stall
4. I don't think I ever said it ran a variety of sets. If I did, please show me where and I will edit it out.

e3:

I've said a lot about Shadow Tag in the past, so I won't elaborate too much except to say that depriving the opponent of the ability to switch is disgusting and removes the ability for the opponent facing Shadow Tag to make plays. I don't see how the metagame would hurt without Gothitelle (and to a lesser extent Wobbuffet) and thus I support a Shadow Tag ban.

I don't agree that Mega Sableye is broken at all. It's clearly not broken because of its bulk, so people have claimed that it takes away the ability to reliably set up entry hazards. Sure, Mega Sableye can indefinitely block certain SR and Spikes setters, but it's far from a universal "catch-all." There are plenty of viable OU Pokemon that will send Sableye away running and screaming unless it wants to risk getting viciously attacked.

Let's take a look at the Pokemon that Mega Sableye is never, ever keeping hazards off against:

- SR Clefable (lol)
- SD Lum Garchomp (Lando-T can do this too)
- Toxic Mold Breaker Excadrill (gets SR and keeps them up vs Mega Sableye while beating some common Defog users)
- LO / Mystic Water Spikes Omastar (no idea why people don't use this when it terrorizes stall and offense alike for rain teams, but if you really hate sableye so much then use this thing ffs)
- Magma Storm Heatran (trap it, kill it, set up SR)
- Toxic Spikes Dragalge (if the Sableye user is using Amoonguss, sobeit, otherwise this is another nice weapon against MSab teams)
- SR Mega Diancie (ok this might be pushing it, but it still wins)

None of these Pokemon are particularly splashable, but ALL of them are viable / good. You can fit one of them onto your team. If you're using a passive as fuck SR setter like Ferrothorn or Hippowdon, that's too bad. Guess what? They're passive as fuck! If Hippowdon and Ferro were more threatening offensively they'd either be on every other OU team or banished to Ubers outright. When using a hazard setter, pick your poison: do you want to use a passive mon that provides defensive synergy at the expense of setting up its hazard, or do you want an offensive hazard setter that can reliably set its hazard up while pressuring the opponent's team at the expense of defensive synergy? You don't get the best of both worlds, and offensive Heatran / Mold Breaker Excadrill do both fairly well anyway.

True, Mega Sableye is not able to beat all hazard setters. However, the point isn't that Mega Sableye limits all hazard setters. It is uncompetitive for what I had already outlined previously in this post. A mon does not need to be completely uncompetitive in what it does for it to be banworthy. Look at Baton Pass, for example. Not all teams lost to Baton Pass (limits teambuilding). However, this did not make Baton Pass healthy for ou, the same way Mega Sableye is unhealthy.

No one against the Mega Sableye ban has made a point as to how Mega Sableye is not uncompetitive in what it does. All that has been seen so far in this thread is, "it doesn't beat all hazard setters" (baton pass doesn't beat all teams), "there are counters to it" (doesn't take away from it being uncompetitive; sure, there are counters to uncompetitive mons. doesn't make them not uncompetitive), "I don't have trouble battling it" (doesn't take away from any of the points the post made about it being uncompetitive, and "m sab doesn't make it hard for stall to teambuild" (maybe not for some people, but again, this doesn't take away from it being uncompetitive).

I challenge someone to prove how Mega Sableye is not an uncompetitive mon, as I have not seen anything disproving that Mega Sableye is unhealthy for the metagame yet.

 

[Aberforth]

Hazards being off the field doesn't mean you cant punish switches. Not all obvious switches need to be punished and you have thoroughly failed to convince me that they do. All I saw in that post was a lot of circular logic. Its uncompetitive because its uncompetitive because its uncompetitive.

The only exception was this part:

Uncompetitive mons take away from skillful aspects of the games such as, switching (Gothitelle), attacking (evasion moves and Swagger), teambuilding (Baton Pass), and with the advant of Mega Sableye, hazards.

While I have no problem with the others, I do have a problem with you including hazards on this list. Hazards, and hazard control has been around since gen2, are we going to ban Starmie because its uncompetitive, because it can get hazards off the field? No.

Since we are not saying that all mons that can prevent hazards are uncompetitive, it stands to reason that it is only in the case of sableye that it is a problem, in your opinion at least since I dont see it being a problem at all. This means we are arguing Sableye to be broken, based on its supportive characteristics (incidentally, lol at your part in the beginning. Giratina-A (defensive), Deo-D (support), Lugia (defensive), they would all be managable in terms of offensively, defensively they'd fuck everything over and would be broken, not all mons need to be offensive to be broken).

 

[thesecondbest]

View attachment 53686​

Ok, sorry. I had some irl problems going on that I was really frustrated with because I can't find the answers to, and so I wasn't really the most logical with my posts, sorry for making you list out all of those mons.

Let's get back to the actual argument, if you will allow us to. In this post, I will attempt to address all of the main arguments for keeping Mega Sableye in OU. If I missed any points or if I did not provide enough support please notify me and I will fix it. I would hope that you all keep in mind that reqs are more difficult to get than ever, unlike the other suspects that we have previously had, so your vote counts so much more this time. Because of this, I suggest that you all approach this suspect with an open mind, and think thoroughly to gain a deeper understanding of what the right decision to make is. If you have thought through all possibilities and viewpoints, then I will understand whatever decision you choose to make.

It is also important to keep in mind that this suspect test is unlike a majority of suspect tests that usually take place, so I would recommend not trying to relate this suspect to any previous ones when making your decision. The main reason behind this is that this suspect has taken place because both Mega Sableye and Gothitelle are found to be uncompetitive, not because the OU Council thought that it was necessarily "broken", or at least not what we usually think of as broken. Most people associate being "broken" with being strong, powerful, impossible to counter, has many potential sets, overcentralizing, etc. Think of other mons that the OU Council has suspected, like Greninja, Landorus-Incarnate, Aegislash, and Mega Mawile; for these reasons, it does not bode well to attempt to associate Mega Sableye with the word "broken". Instead, I advise you to see how Mega Sableye fits into the category of being uncompetitive. Uncompetitive mons take away from skillful aspects of the games such as, switching (Gothitelle), attacking (evasion moves and Swagger), teambuilding (Baton Pass), and with the advant of Mega Sableye, hazards. I believe that switching, attacking, teambuilding, and hazards are all components that are skill-based, and that is what I will be basing my argument on. If you don't believe this things involve skill, I will not attempt to persuade you otherwise. In this post I propose to you that you think about how Mega Sableye may be uncompetitive in the aspects of teambuilding, switching, and hazards. If you are convinced in at least one of these points that it is uncompetitive, I urge you to vote ban on Mega Sableye because these previous uncompetitive mons and ideas have been banned for being uncompetitive in only one category.

Now some of you may argue that hazards do not involve skill because they do not need to be on the field in order to win every game, even though they certainly play a large role in the outcome of the game if played correctly. While this may have some truth to it, I believe that the real reason that preventing hazards is uncompetitive comes from the fact that it does not reward players for making good plays by forcing Mega Sableye stall to switch in and out. Mega Sableye takes out the reward from switching because there are very likely no hazards up on the field to damage any Mega Sableye stall mons. I realize that Mega Sableye will not always prevent hazards, but this is not a good argument to it not being uncompetitive. Baton Pass takes away from the teambuliding component, but not all teams are weak to Baton Pass. In this same way, Mega Sableye has a negative impact on the metagame. Taking away this aspect of reward from the game truly makes Mega Sableye uncompetitive, just like Gothitelle takes away the aspect of switching and is uncompetitive; both of these mons take away large components of skill in the game due to their abilities. Merely forcing Mega Sableye to switch around is not going to be damaging it enough for a player to win. If the Mega Sableye stall is built decently, then it stands to reason that the teambuilder will have counterplay to all of the big threats in OU that they could account for, which usually means the team will be able to deal with all but the most dedicated of stallbreakers, which is a very limited group of mons. Well yes, you could make the argument that teams can run these mons, more often than not it really limits the teambuilding options available to the teambuilder. Mega Sableye dictates teambuilding because of this. Again, this all stems from the fact that Mega Sableye is able to prevent hazards from a large majority of mons with its uncompetitive ability, which is made effective by its stats and typing. Mega Sableye will often be accompanied by mons that will allow it to switch in and out freely, so arguments of "Beating Mega Sableye isn't hard, just use Clefable or Bulk Up Talonflame" fall apart here. Yes, you can run these mons to counter Mega Sableye, but the fact remains that it has five different slots that can support it in its role as being an uncompetitive mon that restricts teambuilding, hazard play, and switching. People will oftentimes put too much focus on Mega Sableye itself and not look at the big picture. Quite a few people have trouble getting to this big picture viewpoint, but if you are able to you can see that Mega Sableye is uncompetitive. Another argument that I have seen some people use as their reasoning for not banning Mega Sableye is that they do not have any troubles when playing against it. Well, this argument is actually really flawed because people try to relate to the wrong thing. For suspects that were based on the mon being "broken" this logic may have applied. However, in this suspect the argument is Mega Sableye being uncompetitive. While you may not have had any problems playing against Baton Pass, swagplay, evasion moves, and Gothitelle due to the teams you use or the playstyles you play, it doesn't change the fact that these mons are still uncompetitive. This applies to Mega Sableye in the same way as these potentially uncompetitive mons that ended up being banned.

The issue I have with this is I can replace Mega Sableye with espeon and the whole passage will still apply. Yes, Magic Bounce is uncompetitive, but then ban Magic Bounce, just like how STag is the suspect because it is inherently uncompetitive and goth is not the suspect. Are you banning Sableye because it affects teambuilding? If so, does that mean that if it had higher usage it wouldn't need a ban? Your arguments don't really make much sense, at least to me, for these reasons and more.

 

[The Goomy]

The issue I have with this is I can replace Mega Sableye with espeon and the whole passage will still apply. Yes, Magic Bounce is uncompetitive, but then ban Magic Bounce, just like how STag is the suspect because it is inherently uncompetitive and goth is not the suspect. Are you banning Sableye because it affects teambuilding? If so, does that mean that if it had higher usage it wouldn't need a ban? Your arguments don't really make much sense, at least to me, for these reasons and more.

This is a poor argument because Espeon's lack of excellent, unique typing and in addition to being relatively frail makes its job of stopping many common, effective hazards users from doing their job throughout a match much more difficult.

EDIT: I think my English teacher just had a heart attack, fam.

 

[Sablenite]

-snip

So then here's what the arguments for it are:


So mindlessly stacking hazards is okay? Seems so much more of a problem really.

Mega Sableye has too much of a force on teambuiling? You have to prepare for the other stuff we have in OU anyhow, IDK how that is too irritating when the checks to it don't solely cover it, if that was the case it would be fair to ban, but it's not.

It outclasses other Stall Mega Evos? That is a flawed argument when we have plenty of mega evos, which are still easily ran provided your support can cover it. (Unaware CM Clefable, Bulk Up Talonflame, Sub-Seed Serperior, etc.)

It runs a variety of sets? It has 2, are you telling me something like Garchomp who has 5 (Tank, Mega, SubSD, Scarf, LO Mixed) is easier to prepare for, if so you're insane

 

[Meek Miltank]

im not gonna be able to make reqs bc im burned out from this game. hax is literally driving me insane. but i figured ill give my argument for those on the fence. ban both shadow tag and mega sableye, theyre too uncompetetive. teambuilding limitations and restrictions from normal gameplay like switching and hazards is an uncompetetive aspect and not contributing to a healthy metagame. skill is thrown out the window. for those who say ban magic bounce not sableye, other magic bounce users; most are frail and dont have the incredibly good typing like sableye does, and the 3 that come to mind (espeon, mega diancie, mega absol) all get beat by mega scizor, the highest (or 2nd) used mega (this is just a point i know not all teams have mega scizor), and wouldnt fucntion on stall. and the "if you dont wanna get trapped, run shed shell" argument is also not good either as its too niche and takes up a valuable item slot for most pokemon, unless its named skarmory, even then still kinda niche. so if you found yourself constantly limited in teambuilding and skill based gameplay i urge you to vote ban.

 

[Sablenite]

im not gonna be able to make reqs bc im burned out from this game. hax is literally driving me insane. but i figured ill give my argument for those on the fence. ban both shadow tag and mega sableye, theyre too uncompetetive. teambuilding limitations and restrictions from normal gameplay like switching and hazards is an uncompetetive aspect and not contributing to a healthy metagame. skill is thrown out the window. for those who say ban magic bounce not sableye, other magic bounce users; most are frail and dont have the incredibly good typing like sableye does, and the 3 that come to mind (espeon, mega diancie, mega absol) all get beat by mega scizor, the highest (or 2nd) used mega (this is just a point i know not all teams have mega scizor), and wouldnt fucntion on stall. and the "if you dont wanna get trapped, run shed shell" argument is also not good either as its too niche and takes up a valuable item slot for most pokemon, unless its named skarmory, even then still kinda niche. so if you found yourself constantly limited in teambuilding and skill based gameplay i urge you to vote ban.

You completely ignored our posts and restated arguments that have been proven. Hazards are normal, LOL since when is this a given right, If you want something you gotta work for it, this just shows how overdependent you are about that. Again, we all need to switch which is why I hate S-Tag, but really let ME live. (On a side note I'm so sick and tired of losing to Manaphy + Magnazone R.I.P. Ferrothorn w/o shed shell which you all argue has been useless.)

 

[urban]

After a lengthy personal battle with the ladder, I managed to get reqs, so I thought I would post my thoughts about the suspect and possible bans. Sorry in advance since I know lots of my thoughts will have already been stated.

In the case M-Sableye, I would tend toward calling it unhealthy for the metagame above all else. This is primarily due to the insane centralizing effects M-Eye has had on the tier across all playstyles. Its biggest effect has been on stall, where there is practically no opportunity cost to using it. The amazing control it provides over the hazard game almost invalidates hazards as a means of beating stall, which traditionally has been one of the more efficient ways to beat stall builds. As such, M-Sableye is found on virtually any competitive stall team, and the generic Goth-Sab build has dominated the playstyle. Now, that is not to say that there aren't effective stall teams without M-Sableye, but, in all reality, its utility is far too much to pass up most of the time, especially when considering stall v stall matchups. Furthermore, if I were to tell you a team of yours is weak to stall, it would practically be assumed that I was referring to the generic M-Eye stall build. Banning our bejeweled little friend from the tier will give stall new life because it opens up the opportunity for other stall builds to flourish. It also forces stall to prepare more for the hazard game rather than mindlessly switching into M-Sableye on hazard setters.

For offense and balance, the centralizing effects of M-Sableye relate to how these teams must run certain mons in order to beat M-Eye stall. Really, this isn't much of a problem on its own because it's truly a part of teambuilding. However, the problem arises when considering the second victim of this suspect - Shadow Tag. All playstyles have mons like TG Manaphy, CM Clefable, SD Gliscor, etc. that are capable of "stallbreaking" at least to some extent. However, with Goth, stall teams can mindlessly trap and make these mons rather useless by tricking them a Choice Scarf. In this regard, there is very little counterplay to Gothitelle aside from repeatedly predicting when your opponent will try trap the mon in question. As such, when used efficiently, a Goth has the potential to trap and invalidate multiple mons in a game. In turn, Shadow Tag can be categorized as uncompetitive because of how little skill it requires to use.

Okay, so now to kinda summarize and state my opinion. M-Eye on it own is unhealthy for the metagame because of its drastic centralizing effects. Stall in particular is the most directly affected, as M-Eye offers far too much to stall teams to pass up using it. For balance and offense, the combination of M-Eye and Goth constitutes the problem. These teams' methods of beating M-Eye builds are invalidated by Goth, which means Stall is sort of unbeatable on paper. Even with M-Eye gone from the tier, the mindlessness factor of Goth and Shadow Tag remains, so banning M-Sableye alone is not sufficient. As such, I will be voting to ban both M-Sableye and Shadow Tag.

Edit @ KztxL7 below:

I guess I should have been more clear. What I am saying is, with M-Eye gone, other types of stall can start to see more usage than they are now. M-Eye and STag being gone will likely cause a drop off in usage of stall at the beginning. However, stall will remain a valid playstyle all the same, and the variety M-eye's being gone will bring to Stall should help in the long run, as other playstyles will have to build to beat multiple different stall builds. This makes for a more diverse, competitive tier.

Also, just want to note that my laddering experience saw very little of people "spamming" hazards - nothing more than usual at least. Also keep in mind that hazards are a huge part of the metagame, so yeah it makes sense for them to be used a lot. So uh, to me, saying the meta will become people spamming hazards is kind of a cop out.

 

[KztxL7]

After a lengthy personal battle with the ladder, I managed to get reqs, so I thought I would post my thoughts about the suspect and possible bans. Sorry in advance since I know lots of my thoughts will have already been stated.

In the case M-Sableye, I would tend toward calling it unhealthy for the metagame above all else. This is primarily due to the insane centralizing effects M-Eye has had on the tier across all playstyles. Its biggest effect has been on stall, where there is practically no opportunity cost to using it. The amazing control it provides over the hazard game almost invalidates hazards as a means of beating stall, which traditionally has been one of the more efficient ways to beat stall builds. As such, M-Sableye is found on virtually any competitive stall team, and the generic Goth-Sab build has dominated the playstyle. Now, that is not to say that there aren't effective stall teams without M-Sableye, but, in all reality, its utility is far too much to pass up most of the time, especially when considering stall v stall matchups. Furthermore, if I were to tell you a team of yours is weak to stall, it would practically be assumed that I was referring to the generic M-Eye stall build. Banning our bejeweled little friend from the tier will give stall new life because it opens up the opportunity for other stall builds to flourish. It also forces stall to prepare more for the hazard game rather than mindlessly switching into M-Sableye on hazard setters.

This feels incredibly circular.

You're saying that the way to make Stall flourish is to remove one of the best tools Stall has overall especially against the mindless spamming of hazards?

 

[Kav]

i seriously dont get this notion that hazards spell the absolute death of stall or whatever. like people EV their mons to eat crits for lunch yet somehow rocks damage screw them over, despite the fact that typically all of their mons have recovery and the defensive nature of the team leads to more opportunities for hazard removal than most other teams.

i mean, ignoring any feelings on whether or not it should be banned, stall isn't going to die with sableye. it did in fact exist before oras came about. there's already a few creative and successful stall teams on the suspect ladder despite the fact that flavor of the week is to just spam spikes offense for quick games.

i'm having a lot of trouble taking the phrase "brainless hazard stacking" seriously when its paired with a paragraph about how someone shouldn't have to deal with sneaky pebbles. every other team in the game has to deal with hazards. pre-oras stall had to deal with hazards. hazards are certainly a way for a team to whittle down stall when they dont carry a stallbreaker or their wallbreaker has a bad matchup, but people need to stop acting like it's some guaranteed wincon where sableye is protecting us all from some sort of pointy holocaust.

 

[thesecondbest]

After a lengthy personal battle with the ladder, I managed to get reqs, so I thought I would post my thoughts about the suspect and possible bans. Sorry in advance since I know lots of my thoughts will have already been stated.

In the case M-Sableye, I would tend toward calling it unhealthy for the metagame above all else. This is primarily due to the insane centralizing effects M-Eye has had on the tier across all playstyles. Its biggest effect has been on stall, where there is practically no opportunity cost to using it. The amazing control it provides over the hazard game almost invalidates hazards as a means of beating stall, which traditionally has been one of the more efficient ways to beat stall builds. As such, M-Sableye is found on virtually any competitive stall team, and the generic Goth-Sab build has dominated the playstyle. Now, that is not to say that there aren't effective stall teams without M-Sableye, but, in all reality, its utility is far too much to pass up most of the time, especially when considering stall v stall matchups. Furthermore, if I were to tell you a team of yours is weak to stall, it would practically be assumed that I was referring to the generic M-Eye stall build. Banning our bejeweled little friend from the tier will give stall new life because it opens up the opportunity for other stall builds to flourish. It also forces stall to prepare more for the hazard game rather than mindlessly switching into M-Sableye on hazard setters.

For offense and balance, the centralizing effects of M-Sableye relate to how these teams must run certain mons in order to beat M-Eye stall. Really, this isn't much of a problem on its own because it's truly a part of teambuilding. However, the problem arises when considering the second victim of this suspect - Shadow Tag. All playstyles have mons like TG Manaphy, CM Clefable, SD Gliscor, etc. that are capable of "stallbreaking" at least to some extent. However, with Goth, stall teams can mindlessly trap and make these mons rather useless by tricking them a Choice Scarf. In this regard, there is very little counterplay to Gothitelle aside from repeatedly predicting when your opponent will try trap the mon in question. As such, when used efficiently, a Goth has the potential to trap and invalidate multiple mons in a game. In turn, Shadow Tag can be categorized as uncompetitive because of how little skill it requires to use.

Okay, so now to kinda summarize and state my opinion. M-Eye on it own is unhealthy for the metagame because of its drastic centralizing effects. Stall in particular is the most directly affected, as M-Eye offers far too much to stall teams to pass up using it. For balance and offense, the combination of M-Eye and Goth constitutes the problem. These teams' methods of beating M-Eye builds are invalidated by Goth, which means Stall is sort of unbeatable on paper. Even with M-Eye gone from the tier, the mindlessness factor of Goth and Shadow Tag remains, so banning M-Sableye alone is not sufficient. As such, I will be voting to ban both M-Sableye and Shadow Tag.

Edit @ KztxL7 below:

I guess I should have been more clear. What I am saying is, with M-Eye gone, other types of stall can start to see more usage than they are now. M-Eye and STag being gone will likely cause a drop off in usage of stall at the beginning. However, stall will remain a valid playstyle all the same, and the variety M-eye's being gone will bring to Stall should help in the long run, as other playstyles will have to build to beat multiple different stall builds. This makes for a more diverse, competitive tier.

Also, just want to note that my laddering experience saw very little of people "spamming" hazards - nothing more than usual at least. Also keep in mind that hazards are a huge part of the metagame, so yeah it makes sense for them to be used a lot. So uh, to me, saying the meta will become people spamming hazards is kind of a cop out.

You say banning sableye alone is insufficient, but is banning goth alone sufficient? If so, why not just ban STag? You even say this yourself - the generic Goth-Sab build. Goth is what makes the team what it is. Sableye could be something else and goth would still trap the counters. So stall is unbeatable because "These teams' methods of beating M-Eye builds are invalidated by Goth." Seems like Goth should get the hammer and eye should be spared, doesn't it?

 

[Plain Spit]

It seems like we aren't clear about Sableye's effect towards the hazard aspect of the game when it's really quite simple. I'll quickly explain.

When it comes to hazards, most people would just play the reset button, defog. Before someone wins, there would be a series of setting up stealth rocks and defogging them away over and over; a very basic view of hazards and not any real skill there. Now the real skill to hazards isn't just to remove them, but to have your own hazards up while having a way to remove theirs. One way of doing this is having a team consisting of a hazard setter and a rapid spinner. Because rapid spin is a normal type move, its walled by ghost types making it a challenge to winning the hazard war. In addition, if you rapid spin and your spinner dies do to rocky helmet/rough skin/iron barbs damage, those hazards don't get removed. It's very basic as well but it's the skillful way of winning the hazard war. The other way is, well, running Sableye. :/

 

[brodean]

I was able to get reqs, and as of now I plan to vote Ban on sabylenite. The main reason is because imo sablye's ability to keep opponent hazards off the field while at the same time being able to keep your hazards on the field is just too much for the metagame. Its effect on the hazard game has been previously discussed, but I believe a nice way showing how significant sablye's ability to control hazards is looking at high level replays

Replay 1 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-74599 (pdc vs cicada world cup)

Significance of ability to prevent hazards: Sablye shuts down completely tyranitar's ability to get up rocks. As a result, volcarona is able to come in multiple times and just have a field day, and tornadus and starmie are able to infinitely check keldeo (the sabyle check) even when burned.
Significance of ability to keep your hazards on field: Keldeo, (the main sablye check) just gets worn down by hazards without even getting an opportunity to land a hit on sab. The emphasis on 6-6 as opposed to 1-1 is key when evaluating sab, because more times than not sablye can switch out without being punished by hazards upon reentry, while sabyle teams are designed so opposing breakers will be worn down from hazards unable to be cleared thanks to sab's spinblock ability.

Replay 2 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-70259 (Tom Bus vs Soulwind world cup)

Significance of ability to prevent hazards: Once sablye megas, its pretty much over for Soulwind. Ferrothorn and hippodown are both rendered useless by sab, and as a result talonflame and unaware clef are able to wall forever thanks to the clear field regardless of what Soulwind does.
Significance of ability to keep your hazards on field: Soulwind has a manaphy, one of the best sablye checks. However, manaphy gets punished by hazards every time upon reentry while sab, thanks to magic bounce, does not. Once again its a 6-6 metagame and not 1-1. As admitted by Soulwind, sab's ability to support its teammates made the match-up unwinnable

Replay 3 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-71426 (pdc vs kirkagure world cup)

Sablye pretty much does everything here, from toxicing a zard-y and later walling it, to keeping hazards on the opponents field and off your field. I'll admit though might have been a different story if turn one was different. However, toxic sab does show the mon's versatility.

Moreover, a lot has been said about how sab is only S with goth. However, I feel sab truly shines outside of stall and more on bulky balanced teams, and these replays help show that. While it can be said I cherry picked replays from the world cup thread, if you look at all the replays where sablye was used on bulky balance instead of stall, sab very rarely lost.

TLDR

In the long run, sab's ability to dictate the hazard game on both sides of the field makes it able to bypass wall-breaking pokemon who on paper should be checking it (6v6 and not 1v1). This makes sab too much for the metagame, and so imo i think ban

 

[DropAcidSeeArceus]

Ah yay, I almost have reqs.

After playing the ladder now vs. before, it does seem much healthier. That being said, the only thing I don't miss is goth. (Secretly I wish Wobb could stay)
Goth definitely deserves a ban. As for Mega Sableye, I don't think it itself is truly broken. I personally feel like it's the last viable stall mon the tier has, but it does ruin the ability to run Mega Venu or Mega Bro stall. I personally feel like stall in OU is too weak of an option. Idk. My COIL is only 2100 rn. Got a bit of a grind left to go. Going to try a stall team I made and see if my opinion changes.

I hate myself already.

 

[Sablenite]

...I guess I should have been more clear. What I am saying is, with M-Eye gone, other types of stall can start to see more usage than they are now. M-Eye and STag being gone will likely cause a drop off in usage of stall at the beginning. However, stall will remain a valid playstyle all the same, and the variety M-eye's being gone will bring to Stall should help in the long run, as other playstyles will have to build to beat multiple different stall builds. This makes for a more diverse, competitive tier.

Also, just want to note that my laddering experience saw very little of people "spamming" hazards - nothing more than usual at least. Also keep in mind that hazards are a huge part of the metagame, so yeah it makes sense for them to be used a lot. So uh, to me, saying the meta will become people spamming hazards is kind of a cop out.

Again quit ignoring posts, at least read the stuff on the same page. I run non-mega Sableye stall and just flat out beat it just prep for it like you would any threat. Usage != Viability

I was able to get reqs, and as of now I plan to vote Ban on sablenite. The main reason is because imo sablye's ability to keep opponent hazards off the field while at the same time being able to keep your hazards on the field is just too much for the metagame. Its effect on the hazard game has been previously discussed, but I believe a nice way showing how significant sablye's ability to control hazards is looking at high level replays

Replay 1 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-74599 (pdc vs cicada world cup)

Significance of ability to prevent hazards: Sablye shuts down completely tyranitar's ability to get up rocks. As a result, volcarona is able to come in multiple times and just have a field day, and tornadus and starmie are able to infinitely check keldeo (the sabyle check) even when burned.
Significance of ability to keep your hazards on field: Keldeo, (the main sablye check) just gets worn down by hazards without even getting an opportunity to land a hit on sab. The emphasis on 6-6 as opposed to 1-1 is key when evaluating sab, because more times than not sablye can switch out without being punished by hazards upon reentry, while sabyle teams are designed so opposing breakers will be worn down from hazards unable to be cleared thanks to sab's spinblock ability.

Replay 2 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-70259 (Tom Bus vs Soulwind world cup)

Significance of ability to prevent hazards: Once sablye megas, its pretty much over for Soulwind. Ferrothorn and hippodown are both rendered useless by sab, and as a result talonflame and unaware clef are able to wall forever thanks to the clear field regardless of what Soulwind does.
Significance of ability to keep your hazards on field: Soulwind has a manaphy, one of the best sablye checks. However, manaphy gets punished by hazards every time upon reentry while sab, thanks to magic bounce, does not. Once again its a 6-6 metagame and not 1-1. As admitted by Soulwind, sab's ability to support its teammates made the match-up unwinnable...

LOL, you think those battles were perfectly played? Well was trying to set-up on Volcorona with a Steel or Staying in w/ Tyranatar against a Sableye were good choices? No, people misplay. Oh, and Sableye itself doesn't set hazards what makes you assume your going to be worn down and they are not? Attacks alone wear down the opponent. Oh, TG Manaphy breaks Clefable the fact they chose Defensive CM was their choice and left them weak to it

 

[thesecondbest]

It seems like we aren't clear about Sableye's effect towards the hazard aspect of the game when it's really quite simple. I'll quickly explain.

When it comes to hazards, most people would just play the reset button, defog. Before someone wins, there would be a series of setting up stealth rocks and defogging them away over and over; a very basic view of hazards and not any real skill there. Now the real skill to hazards isn't just to remove them, but to have your own hazards up while having a way to remove theirs. One way of doing this is having a team consisting of a hazard setter and a rapid spinner. Because rapid spin is a normal type move, its walled by ghost types making it a challenge to winning the hazard war. In addition, if you rapid spin and your spinner dies do to rocky helmet/rough skin/iron barbs damage, those hazards don't get removed. It's very basic as well but it's the skillful way of winning the hazard war. The other way is, well, running Sableye. :/

How many teams have spinblockers? Besides sableye itself, nothing can really stop offensive starmie from spinning, and moldy exca is completely unblockable. And the recoil thing basically never happens. 95% of the time spinners work. But you can get up hazards vs sable teams. That's why most also run a defogger. You can lead the rocker (or lead predicting sableye then double to the rocker) or run a rocker that beats sableye. Putting sableye on your team does NOT automatically prohibit hazards. In fact, I'd say spinners are more consistent than sable is.

 

[Sweep]

I've said a lot about Shadow Tag in the past, so I won't elaborate too much except to say that depriving the opponent of the ability to switch is disgusting and removes the ability for the opponent facing Shadow Tag to make plays. I don't see how the metagame would hurt without Gothitelle (and to a lesser extent Wobbuffet) and thus I support a Shadow Tag ban.

I don't agree that Mega Sableye is broken at all. It's clearly not broken because of its bulk, so people have claimed that it takes away the ability to reliably set up entry hazards. Sure, Mega Sableye can indefinitely block certain SR and Spikes setters, but it's far from a universal "catch-all." There are plenty of viable OU Pokemon that will send Sableye away running and screaming unless it wants to risk getting viciously attacked.

Let's take a look at the Pokemon that Mega Sableye is never, ever keeping hazards off against:

- SR Clefable (lol)
- SD Lum Garchomp (Lando-T can do this too)
- Toxic Mold Breaker Excadrill (gets SR and keeps them up vs Mega Sableye while beating some common Defog users)
- LO / Mystic Water Spikes Omastar (no idea why people don't use this when it terrorizes stall and offense alike for rain teams, but if you really hate sableye so much then use this thing ffs)
- Magma Storm Heatran (trap it kill it, set up SR)
- Toxic Spikes Dragalge (if the Sableye user is using Amoonguss, sobeit, otherwise this is another nice weapon against MSab teams)
- SR Mega Diancie (ok this might be pushing it, but it still wins)

None of these Pokemon are particularly splashable, but ALL of them are viable / good. You can fit one of them onto your team. If you're using a passive as fuck SR setter like Ferrothorn or Hippowdon, that's too bad. Guess what? They're passive as fuck! If Hippowdon and Ferro were more threatening offensively they'd either be on every other OU team or banished to Ubers outright. When using a hazard setter, pick your poison: do you want to use a passive mon that provides defensive synergy at the expense of setting up its hazard, or do you want an offensive hazard setter that can reliably set its hazard up while pressuring the opponent's team at the expense of defensive synergy? You don't get the best of both worlds, and offensive Heatran / Mold Breaker Excadrill do both fairly well anyway.

 

[Sablenite]

- Magma Storm Heatran (trap it, kill it, set up SR)

Ghost is immune to partial trapping moves, but it does 2HKO

 

[Wheezer]

I've said a lot about Shadow Tag in the past, so I won't elaborate too much except to say that depriving the opponent of the ability to switch is disgusting and removes the ability for the opponent facing Shadow Tag to make plays. I don't see how the metagame would hurt without Gothitelle (and to a lesser extent Wobbuffet) and thus I support a Shadow Tag ban.

I don't agree that Mega Sableye is broken at all. It's clearly not broken because of its bulk, so people have claimed that it takes away the ability to reliably set up entry hazards. Sure, Mega Sableye can indefinitely block certain SR and Spikes setters, but it's far from a universal "catch-all." There are plenty of viable OU Pokemon that will send Sableye away running and screaming unless it wants to risk getting viciously attacked.

Let's take a look at the Pokemon that Mega Sableye is never, ever keeping hazards off against:

- SR Clefable (lol)
- SD Lum Garchomp (Lando-T can do this too)
- Toxic Mold Breaker Excadrill (gets SR and keeps them up vs Mega Sableye while beating some common Defog users)
- LO / Mystic Water Spikes Omastar (no idea why people don't use this when it terrorizes stall and offense alike for rain teams, but if you really hate sableye so much then use this thing ffs)
- Magma Storm Heatran (trap it kill it, set up SR)
- Toxic Spikes Dragalge (if the Sableye user is using Amoonguss, sobeit, otherwise this is another nice weapon against MSab teams)
- SR Mega Diancie (ok this might be pushing it, but it still wins)

None of these Pokemon are particularly splashable, but ALL of them are viable / good. You can fit one of them onto your team. If you're using a passive as fuck SR setter like Ferrothorn or Hippowdon, that's too bad. Guess what? They're passive as fuck! If Hippowdon and Ferro were more threatening offensively they'd either be on every other OU team or banished to Ubers outright. When using a hazard setter, pick your poison: do you want to use a passive mon that provides defensive synergy at the expense of setting up its hazard, or do you want an offensive hazard setter that can reliably set its hazard up while pressuring the opponent's team at the expense of defensive synergy? You don't get the best of both worlds, and offensive Heatran / Mold Breaker Excadrill do both fairly well anyway.

Just gonna quote my own post here:

True, Mega Sableye is not able to beat all hazard setters. However, the point isn't that Mega Sableye limits all hazard setters. It is uncompetitive for what I had already outlined previously in this post. A mon does not need to be completely uncompetitive in what it does for it to be banworthy. Look at Baton Pass, for example. Not all teams lost to Baton Pass (limits teambuilding). However, this did not make Baton Pass healthy for ou, the same way Mega Sableye is unhealthy.

No one against the Mega Sableye ban has made a point as to how Mega Sableye is not uncompetitive in what it does. All that has been seen so far in this thread is, "it doesn't beat all hazard setters" (baton pass doesn't beat all teams), "there are counters to it" (doesn't take away from it being uncompetitive; sure, there are counters to uncompetitive mons. doesn't make them not uncompetitive), "I don't have trouble battling it" (doesn't take away from any of the points the post made about it being uncompetitive, and "m sab doesn't make it hard for stall to teambuild" (maybe not for some people, but again, this doesn't take away from it being uncompetitive).

 

[Sablenite]

Just gonna quote my own post here:

I'm going to ask you to define uncompetitive. It seems like its not the case since the counters are perfectly viable and have not risen due to M-Sbleye alone, like Porygon 2 and Empoleon did for Greninja.

 

[Eraxxer]

I don't get it. If you don't pack a Manaphy, Zard X, Clef or Sab counter, then yes, you probably lose. They're S rank for a reason. What distinguishes Sab from the rest? How is it actually uncompetitive? Hazards aren't some god given right, if you can't get them up you should still be able to make do. No leftovers means that even when Sab switches in on bulky shit like Ferro and Hippo (especially with sand) It's usually forced to recover and if not then it's weakened to be in range of a lot of other attacks. However, it all still comes down to the fact that sab is looking to lose its biggest cheese with STag pretty much gone already as almost everyone agrees on a ban.

Lol just want to add that when Gothitelle doesn't have Shadow Tag it becomes COMPETITIVE. hhehehh

 

[Aberforth]

II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A.) This can be match up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough.
B.) This can be external factors; think endless battle clause, where the determining factor becomes internet connection over playing skill.
C.) This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, SwagPlay, Evasion, or Moody, all of which turn the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.
D.) Note uncompetitive elements are almost always present in the battling skill aspect; they will, however, be present in the team building aspect should we allow them in the sense of having to rely on excessively specific counters (such as loading teams with Sturdy or Keen Eye Pokemon and the like).

I dont see how this fits sableye. More skillful play is not in any way inhibited by Sableye. It is definitely influenced by Sableye, as it does in the case of ZardX and Manaphy in terms of the way you deal with them, and more so because of its ability, but it doesn't render more skillful play obsolete, I just changes what the skillful play is. It is no longer skillful to mindlessly spam hazards, but to be careful about when you set them up and when they attack. That doesn't take away from skill at all, it adds to it.