np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - Run The Jewels

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As for listing mons that beat entire stall builds, that's just asinine. As Eraxxer pointed out; your wallbreaker is going to have just as many teammates as Sableye (more so when Goth gets banned). This is the reason why many teams use stall/wallbreaking CORES to take down defensive cores while still having options for other teams. Take RandomBro's list but don't stop at using just one mon, use two or three. There are mons on that list that not only threaten stall but also threaten offense (Torn, Lopunny, Serp etc) and balance (Hoopa, Gard... Serp) as well. Use these mons together to keep flexible. Offense and balance team members are just as reliant on teammates as stall mons
The reason why he stated not to list pokemon and to list cores is because it makes a much better argument. A list of pokemon is fine, yes, but what really matters is if they work well together and still manage to be an effective threat against not only the target pokemon (in this case, m-sableye), but most of the tier. You cannot just pick any random combination of pokemon from that list and hope for the best.
 
JS the matchup issue will not get better w/o mega sab..... hazard stacking offense will become the norm and thats one of the most matchup based type of teams we have... So if your reason for banning mega sab is the matchup issue, we have do ALOT more then ban mega sab... because in a meta where klefki would become at least A-A+ rank thats about as matchup based as you can get imo.....
Wondering what you guys think about this^^^^ since no one has responded I think Mega sab is very much a blessing in disguise for the tier because w/o it the tier becomes MORE matchup based with klefki everywhere
 

AM

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Wondering what you guys think about this^^^^ since no one has responded I think Mega sab is very much a blessing in disguise for the tier because w/o it the tier becomes MORE matchup based with klefki everywhere
I've only been reading this thread for the sake of moderating it seeing as how trying to justify a bunch of theorymon perspectives presented in the last pages or so is just painful to read and take seriously as justification.

The matchup element is such a mind blowing exaggeration at times every single time people present it and that's why a lot of these past posts I strongly believe shouldn't even be taking seriously unless you have gone out of your way to get reqs, which big surprise half or most of the posters here haven't. M-Sableye isn't holding hazards back, it never was in the first place under the implication that teams weren't using hazards cause of M-Sableye entirely. People have been using the hazard stacking archetypes since XY we tested M-Sableye and STAG as aggravators of one of the few realistic matchup concerns that are legitimate, or have grounds to be legitimate depending on who you're asking. Yes some of the factors have to do with hazards, there's no denying this, but let's not make such absurd statements in that M-Sableye is what is holding back an assumed hazard stacking frenzy, it's ridiculous. Implying that teams utilizing Klefki are going to establish a matchup based element is humorous seeing as how Klefki has been used for awhile and its effectiveness is hindered by the prevalence of Magnezone builds, half the waters and electrics that don't even care about it, and the fact that when a game is presented without the suspects in question and with builds utilizing Klefki there was nothing significantly wrong or overbearing in terms of its usage and the playstyles associated with it, perfectly manageable within normal means. teamsnickers I can sure you nobody in the back is sitting around giving a single care in the world of Klefkis potential placement on the viability rankings so what was the point of that?

I don't have a whole lot else to say but these comments have been tiring to read cause it's such a baseless assumption using the suspect in question as a plateau to state it should stay for a made up problem that doesn't exist, ie Klefki builds "ruining" the tier to put it in better terms.
 

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Wondering what you guys think about this^^^^ since no one has responded I think Mega sab is very much a blessing in disguise for the tier because w/o it the tier becomes MORE matchup based with klefki everywhere
I think what you say is silly.

Will vote to ban Sableye-M, for the reasons stated here.
I don't think there is really a point in repeating myself, so instead I'll drop a couple of thoughts I gathered from playing with the new tier.

Honestly, it does not appear as a big deal, except that finally you can sort of ignore the very unidimensional stall teams and focus on covering other threats, which I think is a huge step in the right direction. Now it's just a suspect ladder and we should take it with a grain of salt blabla.
Anyway, more Medicham-M, but at the same time, all the Medicham-M answers such as Mew, Reuniclus or Slowbro all became more viable with Sableye-M departure. This is a good example of the tier balancing itself and I really appreciate this evolution.
Before, running Medicham-M was like this big matchup gamble. Now it's more interesting since it became easier to cover it without casualties, but on the other hand, it's obviously getting more appealing to use your own Medicham-M.
There are definitely more Rain teams, but these are kind of inherently limited and also become easier to prepare for given that stuff like Ferrothorn will immensely appreciate having Sableye-M gone. So again, this looks like another issue solved by itself.

This post isn't very well structured, but all in all, I'm looking forward to see how everything will unfold. It seems like, as anticipated, this ban opens a whole lot of new options, and while Sableye-M has always been this kind of marginal Pokémon, its departure is a breath of fresh air when tackling the building in ORAS.
And I strongly doubt that it announces the domination of any "stacking hazards" "offense" "balance" or whatever style. It's purely a lessening of the building pressure that is typical to newer generations, and I think it's the best way to go (see why in my link if you care).
 
In this suspect, we're really dealing with 2 different issues. It's the competitiveness of Goth stall, and the overcentralization of Mega Sableye. Now, because I think STag is a lost cause, I'm not going to pretend that I could support it. So for the rest of my argument, assume that STag doesn't exist. If I list counters for some pokemon, don't reply "but gothitelle cripples 5 of them!!!"

The argument surrounding Megs Sableye's ban is completely based around its effect on the metagame. It's not broken traditionally. We have already established that. It's quite easy to check and counter. In fact, I would argue that Mega Sableye doesn't actually pull it's weight in terms of pure walling, due to its lack of resists, stat spread, and lack of an item like leftovers, however that's irrelevant from the rest of my logic.

Given that Mega Sableye's ban is completely centered around its effect on the metagame, lets compare it to a similar past suspect, like say, Aegislash. We know that Mega Sableye doesn't even compare to the distortions that Aegislash caused, and that's fairly indisputable. Aegislash put restrictions on numerous Pokemon: Psychic types, the stallbreaker trio, CC pinsir, etc, etc.. Sableye, on the other hand, restricts like 2 Pokemon. Mega Medicham, stallbreaker Mew, and you can argue a few other taunt stallbreakers. I don't understand what people mean when they say "OU will flourish without Sableye." We're not going to see a massive influx of previously restricted Pokemon flooding in. In fact, the Sablenite ban alone is hardly going to make any difference to the metagame.

Every team needs to have a Mega Sableye counter. Yes? And what's the problem with that? No one should build a team, and think it ought to cruise in any metagame. That's not a broken Pokemon-- just bad teambuilding. No one should say, "Oh, Mega Sableye forces me to run a counter, instead of running one lets ban it," and I mean, there are so many counters. We have the waters: Manaphy and Keldeo. The fires: Charizard X, Charizard Y, Victini, SD Talonflame. And let's not forget the monster Hoopa-U, and the marvelous SD Gliscor. Whenever I run offense, I have to run 1 Keldeo counter and 1 Keldeo check. By comparison, Mega Sableye is actually not as bad.

Let's take a look at the hazards aspect. Just like Rapid Spinners and Defoggers, Mega Sableye can block hazards. Just like Rapid Spinners and Defoggers, Mega Sableye has specific Pokemon that it can't block. The prime example is SR Clefable, which can come in and force Mega Sableye out. Now, granted Mega Sableye can come in on most defensive Pokemon, and Mega Sableye doesn't have many SR users like Clefable that can just switch into it. Some other examples of SR users that can cause trouble would be DTail Tankchomp (which is all over the place) and offensive Heatran. Yes, players can pair Mega Sableye with a Pokemon like Togekiss or Starmie to cover pretty much every SR user. However, if you think about it, that's using 2 teamslots on just removal. Forget about Sableye, something like Skarmory + Starmie pretty much covers all SR users regardless.

A Mega Sableye on a team doesn't guarantee no hazards will get up, nor does it necessitate some random or specific Pokemon to be used to beat it. I think people have been exaggerating the effect of Mega Sableye on the metagame. It doesn't make stall excessively match-up based because it's easy to prepare for. [Edit] Just make sure to think through your decision.
 
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Well I'm glad that concerns over hazard stack and Mega Medicham builds have been tackled so extensively. I've already presented some reasoning as to why I don't think Sableye should remain in the tier, and not that this will add anything to what other people think, but I found the suspect ladder significantly more fun without Sableye, which only makes me more sure of the way I will vote.

In any case, a decent anti ban argument that has been popping up, which I may rephrase slightly, not to suite my own purposes, but just to make it as clear as it can be, is this:

Yes, Sableye has a strong impact on the metagame. However, this is to be expected of an S rank pokemon, and having to prepare for something isn't necessarily indicative of it being unhealthy. What separates Sableye from other S rank pokemon, which also impact the tier, and require attention when teambuilding?

I think the strongest way to tackle this argument is to compare it to other S rank pokemon, and pokemon that were previously S rank in different stages of the metagame, to bring it into context. The key difference between Sableye and other S rank pokemon, to break it down into simple terms, is extent, effort, and what happens if you aren't totally prepared for it. I'll elaborate on what I mean by each of these points in the paragraph below.

Extent: Ok, so a pokemon can be placed into the S rank category based on it being an offensive, defensive, or supportive threat. Sableye definitely falls into one of the latter two categories. An S rank defensive pokemon is one that can be easily fitted into a defensive core with other pokemon, and be very effective at its job. An S rank supportive pokemon can do things like be an effective cleric, throw out status, maybe throw out taunts or encores to prevent set up, although nothing currently in the s rank does the last. Clefable is S rank because it can throw out Thunder Waves and requires immediate attention to stop it from cming too many times, plus it can be a solid cleric with unaware for full stall teams. If you look way way back to earlier XY, then Venusaur was ranked as S rank. This was because of how many pokemon it could effectively wall.

So what separates Sableye from these pokemon? Well, crucially, while Clefable isn't out, it's not threatening you with cms, or throwing out twaves. Back then, when Venusaur was S rank, when it wasn't in, it wasn't walling your pokemon, or using some other rarer options at its disposal such as leech seed. When Sableye isn't in, it is still stopping hazards from going up by deterring you from using them, and thus it's still stopping the rest of the team from taking chip damage. That's the big difference between them, that Sableye impacts many more plays than other defensive S ranks can or did. At every point in the game, it makes you significantly more reluctant to use any non attacking move. Normally with defensive S ranks, they can come in and threaten you in some way, or do something helpful. With Sableye, it coming in is the threat, because it comes in, bounces back the move you used, and thus shuts it down all at once, making it extremely efficient in terms of turn usage. This is a huge step up from something like defiant, or pursuit users, just due to the sheer number of moves and targets that magic bounce works on. Essentially, teams that run Sableye make use of it at almost every point in the game, without it even having to be in, because of how many normally good plays it totally deters. Just before this argument comes up, it isn't promoting smart play, because just identifying what pokemon uses stealth rock, and simply sending in Sableye is both the safest and most obvious play.

Effort: This ties into my last sentence of the previous paragraph about the extent to which Sableye impacts games it is in. Sableye shuts down plenty of plays, and it does this in a very safe fashion. Notice how even if the opposing player makes the absolutely optimal play, and doubles into something else on the Sableye switch, provided this isn't a breaker the Sableye team is extremely weak to, not much has been gained in the way of advantage, and obviously forcing excessive switches isn't going to be doing a huge amount if you can't punish it with hazard damage. Once it is in, Sableye doesn't actually give out free turns to a whole lot of stuff; it can fire off Knock Offs or Wisps, which you'll notice the vast majority of pokemon don't appreciate switching in on. What Sableye does is turn an obvious play into one that is very efficient too in terms of turn usage, and it seriously impacts the options the opposing player has in terms of punishment. Furthermore, as I have said before, hazard management is a skill when playing stall, and Sableye just takes what was once an important aspect of games versus stall, and puts them at such a huge advantage that they almost automatically win the hazard war, provided it is backed up by a Skarmory or similar.

What happens if you are weak to it: This point really refers to being weak to Sableye teams as a whole, and incorporates much of what I have already been saying. Due to the low effort required in playing Sableye teams, the Sableye user doesn't have to do much, if anything in the way of smart play in the event of a good matchup, and due to how it makes punishment of obvious plays much less effective, and shuts down a lot of what would be an otherwise good move, eg throwing taunts out on a stall team, the options somebody has who is weak to the Sableye team in question are very, very limited. A good number of the pokemon on the options against Sableye teams lists seem somewhat questionable, and they're usually bulky enough to shrug off one breaker they are weak to with a decent number of pokemon left. Besides that, in discounting gothitelle you assume only 5 members, which isn't what is actually going to happen. In any case Sableye teams are something which require much thought in the team building process. What it boils down to is that against a Sableye build, if you are slightly weak to it, and without significant hax, then you can pretty much chalk it up as a loss before the battle has even begun. This is the main issue I have with the statement "If you are weak to Sableye teams, you deserve to lose to them". Do I really? It doesn't seem right that somebody who is slightly weak to a certain threat, because don't forget that you can't account for everything in ORAS and thus you can't account for all Sableye builds, should just have to flop over and accept their loss vs a Sableye build their team doesn't like. I suppose I can go for the hax, but that is still out of my control, and having to rely on luck to win isn't competitive. Compared to other S ranks, and pokemon which have been S rank in the past, none of them really just ends the game like Sableye does if you aren't totally prepared for them. I've seen smart plays like keeping up pressure with rocks to stop Char X from being very threatening, or forcing a Flare Blitz to make it take a lot of recoil, and thus bring it into the range of some priority move. Clefable can end games quickly if you aren't prepared for it, but at least then it is only one pokemon you need to pressure down than a whole team, and its checks and counters are far, far more numerous than ways of beating a Sableye team are.

Some builds are more matchup based than others, true; defensive builds can't and shouldn't be able to cover all threats, and rain, which is the team style I used to get reqs with, can't do much if the opponent's team has plenty of water resists. However, all team styles shouldn't have to suffer from the same fault. I have enjoyed using rain, but I don't want every team I build to have that issue. Sableye can threaten every build that isn't absurdly dedicated to breaking it seems with a matchup loss, provided that it packs the correct team members, due to how it makes you so reliant on having certain breakers. Granted, Manaphy can threaten certain, specific builds a lot and be difficult to beat, but the number of teams to which Sableye does this is far greater, it has a much more widespread impact on the metagame, and so it's clear that there is a difference between the two.

In conclusion, after playing on the suspect ladder and getting reqs, I think that removing Sableye offers some objective improvements to the metagame:
  • It leaves players with a bad matchup more room to outplay this bad matchup.
  • It means players with a good matchup generally have to make more effort to turn this good matchup into a win.
  • It makes teambuilding noticeably less painful.
The thing that only sweetens the deal for me is that with Sableye gone, certain offence builds become more viable. Despite what some may claim, I can assure you that they require more thought than Mega Sableye builds ever did to play. I will vote to ban Sablenite, and anyone who is interested in reducing the number of matchup based losses which standard teams suffer should do the same.
 
i will reiterate what i said in this thread earlier. this is a suspect test for both goth and sableye. people are claiming that sableye within itself isnt overpowered, but sableye teams that involve goth+sableye are.
has a meta without goth, but with sableye been tested? no, it hasnt, only the opposite. the current suspect test isnt even close to logical. its not an accurate way to gauge whether sableye is ban worthy.
 
Well I'm glad that concerns over hazard stack and Mega Medicham builds have been tackled so extensively. I've already presented some reasoning as to why I don't think Sableye should remain in the tier, and not that this will add anything to what other people think, but I found the suspect ladder significantly more fun without Sableye, which only makes me more sure of the way I will vote.

In any case, a decent anti ban argument that has been popping up, which I may rephrase slightly, not to suite my own purposes, but just to make it as clear as it can be, is this:

Yes, Sableye has a strong impact on the metagame. However, this is to be expected of an S rank pokemon, and having to prepare for something isn't necessarily indicative of it being unhealthy. What separates Sableye from other S rank pokemon, which also impact the tier, and require attention when teambuilding?

I think the strongest way to tackle this argument is to compare it to other S rank pokemon, and pokemon that were previously S rank in different stages of the metagame, to bring it into context. The key difference between Sableye and other S rank pokemon, to break it down into simple terms, is extent, effort, and what happens if you aren't totally prepared for it. I'll elaborate on what I mean by each of these points in the paragraph below.
Through ORAS and XY, we haven't had that many supportive S ranked pokemon besides Deoxys forms and Clefable, and they're really not comparable to Sableye (Deoxys forms are maybe kind of close in terms of preventing hazards, but at the same time their similarities even in that are marginal at best). I personally didn't find the suspect ladder all that fun, but I wasn't sold on Sableye being banworthy before this suspect began.

Extent: Ok, so a pokemon can be placed into the S rank category based on it being an offensive, defensive, or supportive threat. Sableye definitely falls into one of the latter two categories. An S rank defensive pokemon is one that can be easily fitted into a defensive core with other pokemon, and be very effective at its job. An S rank supportive pokemon can do things like be an effective cleric, throw out status, maybe throw out taunts or encores to prevent set up, although nothing currently in the s rank does the last. Clefable is S rank because it can throw out Thunder Waves and requires immediate attention to stop it from cming too many times, plus it can be a solid cleric with unaware for full stall teams. If you look way way back to earlier XY, then Venusaur was ranked as S rank. This was because of how many pokemon it could effectively wall.

So what separates Sableye from these pokemon? Well, crucially, while Clefable isn't out, it's not threatening you with cms, or throwing out twaves. Back then, when Venusaur was S rank, when it wasn't in, it wasn't walling your pokemon, or using some other rarer options at its disposal such as leech seed. When Sableye isn't in, it is still stopping hazards from going up by deterring you from using them, and thus it's still stopping the rest of the team from taking chip damage. That's the big difference between them, that Sableye impacts many more plays than other defensive S ranks can or did. At every point in the game, it makes you significantly more reluctant to use any non attacking move. Normally with defensive S ranks, they can come in and threaten you in some way, or do something helpful. With Sableye, it coming in is the threat, because it comes in, bounces back the move you used, and thus shuts it down all at once, making it extremely efficient in terms of turn usage. This is a huge step up from something like defiant, or pursuit users, just due to the sheer number of moves and targets that magic bounce works on. Essentially, teams that run Sableye make use of it at almost every point in the game, without it even having to be in, because of how many normally good plays it totally deters. Just before this argument comes up, it isn't promoting smart play, because just identifying what pokemon uses stealth rock, and simply sending in Sableye is both the safest and most obvious play.
I mean, having Clefable is deterring something like TankChomp from trying to shuffle pokemon around, unaware sets are deterring the use of setup from almost every setup pokemon entirely, and MG sets are good deterrents for defensive pokemon to go for toxic/burns because they aren't going to do much. But more generally, you generally don't want to give [S or A rank threat here] a free switchin VS something they have a good matchup against, because this will give them a turn to 'do their job' (whatever that may be, offensive threats can fire off powerful attacks, setup sweepers get a turn for subs/whatever they're doing, supportive ones do support things). The same thing you said regarding sableye and hazards applies to unaware users though, the unaware user deters the use of almost any setup moves at any point in the game, because the other player knows that its going to be useless. ID-ing the boosting threat takes a bit more competence than what can set SR, but its reasonably a similar process and by "just by having it in the sidelines" its accomplishing its job.

Effort: This ties into my last sentence of the previous paragraph about the extent to which Sableye impacts games it is in. Sableye shuts down plenty of plays, and it does this in a very safe fashion. Notice how even if the opposing player makes the absolutely optimal play, and doubles into something else on the Sableye switch, provided this isn't a breaker the Sableye team is extremely weak to, not much has been gained in the way of advantage, and obviously forcing excessive switches isn't going to be doing a huge amount if you can't punish it with hazard damage. Once it is in, Sableye doesn't actually give out free turns to a whole lot of stuff; it can fire off Knock Offs or Wisps, which you'll notice the vast majority of pokemon don't appreciate switching in on. What Sableye does is turn an obvious play into one that is very efficient too in terms of turn usage, and it seriously impacts the options the opposing player has in terms of punishment. Furthermore, as I have said before, hazard management is a skill when playing stall, and Sableye just takes what was once an important aspect of games versus stall, and puts them at such a huge advantage that they almost automatically win the hazard war, provided it is backed up by a Skarmory or similar.
Assuming Sableye is on a defensive team, that's the point of using a defensive team (to have an answer for as many things as possible/not die before the opponent's thing). It is harder to capitalize on the momentum since no hazards, but nonetheless you get a free turn with whatever you just sent in which (over time) can give you leeway to make some more ballsy plays like setting rocks or eliminating an opponent's member. I admit Sableye does give a big edge in the hazard war, but that's something the stall team has explicitly prepared for and as a result should be able to maintain. Sableye+Skarmory is an insanely solid defensive hazard control core, and even without Sableye Skarmory clears hazards VS a ton of hazard setters, so stacking two really good hazard control pokemon is going to be effective. Though back on track, I addressed the hazards thing in an earlier post so I'ma quote it here because I don't want to retype it.
The way I see it, hazards are as much support for a win-con as anything else you put on a pokemon team is, and there are times when that support isn't going to be all that useful. If Specs Keldeo is my support for a sweeper, and my opponent has Slowbro+Amoongus, then I shouldn't expect Keldeo's support to get me very far in that battle. I don't see how [Hazard Setter] and Mega Sableye is all that different. If [Hazard Setter] cannot muscle its way past Sableye/opponent's method of hazard control, then the rest of my team should compensate for that if I want to consistently have hazards.
Which leads into...

What happens if you are weak to it: This point really refers to being weak to Sableye teams as a whole, and incorporates much of what I have already been saying. Due to the low effort required in playing Sableye teams, the Sableye user doesn't have to do much, if anything in the way of smart play in the event of a good matchup, and due to how it makes punishment of obvious plays much less effective, and shuts down a lot of what would be an otherwise good move, eg throwing taunts out on a stall team, the options somebody has who is weak to the Sableye team in question are very, very limited. A good number of the pokemon on the options against Sableye teams lists seem somewhat questionable, and they're usually bulky enough to shrug off one breaker they are weak to with a decent number of pokemon left. Besides that, in discounting gothitelle you assume only 5 members, which isn't what is actually going to happen. In any case Sableye teams are something which require much thought in the team building process. What it boils down to is that against a Sableye build, if you are slightly weak to it, and without significant hax, then you can pretty much chalk it up as a loss before the battle has even begun. This is the main issue I have with the statement "If you are weak to Sableye teams, you deserve to lose to them". Do I really? It doesn't seem right that somebody who is slightly weak to a certain threat, because don't forget that you can't account for everything in ORAS and thus you can't account for all Sableye builds, should just have to flop over and accept their loss vs a Sableye build their team doesn't like. I suppose I can go for the hax, but that is still out of my control, and having to rely on luck to win isn't competitive. Compared to other S ranks, and pokemon which have been S rank in the past, none of them really just ends the game like Sableye does if you aren't totally prepared for them. I've seen smart plays like keeping up pressure with rocks to stop Char X from being very threatening, or forcing a Flare Blitz to make it take a lot of recoil, and thus bring it into the range of some priority move. Clefable can end games quickly if you aren't prepared for it, but at least then it is only one pokemon you need to pressure down than a whole team, and its checks and counters are far, far more numerous than ways of beating a Sableye team are.
Being weak to a defensive threat is pretty different from being weak to an offensive threat. Its (at least from experience) a good deal harder to be completely weak to a defensive threat than it is to be weak to an offensive threat. You can still overload a defensive threat by way of aggressively firing off decently powered attacks and playing to not give it turns to recover, and with the really wide variety of offensive options for teams to use a solid offensive team can compensate for weaknesses usually without shuffling around too many members. Sableye in specific is prone to being worn down by status/chip damage due to its low HP, slowness, and lack of passive recovery. Also, there are a good number of pokemon available to a variety of team styles that can take advantage of Sableye, the more offensive of whom can usually do a number to defensive teams as well. Being weak to an offensive threat on the other hand, is more along the lines of "Whoops, Pinsir plows through this team at +2," and more often than not an S ranked offensive threat is pretty capable of ending the game quickly "if you aren't totally prepared for them." I've had people double switching aggresively VS me to wear down Slowbro so it can't check M-Medicham very well, forcing some sacks even though I (as the stall player) had a good matchup vs the offensive team in terms of team composition, and I've seen people going for U-turn repeatedly VS Sableye with Lando-T until it couldn't come in without risking being severely weakened. An offensive team can (at the very least) put up a fight vs a defensive team, whereas a defensive team isn't going to be able to do much in terms of "putting up a fight" VS a sweeper/breaker its weak to.

Having a team that is M-Sab+5 other pokemon weak is something that is different though, because its a lot more dynamic of an interaction, especially if you aren't necessarily 'weak' (ie: you lack members who are capable of forcing it out/dealing significant damage) to any member in specific. Sableye's Hazard support may be keeping the team from getting worn down quickly, but its (for example) Chansey's Heal Bell support that's keeping everyone status free and Quagsire's Unaware support that's stopping some sweepers from taking advantage of other members of the team, etc. Is it that preparing for stall teams becomes too difficult with M-Sableye, because I'm pretty sure that without Gothitelle in the equation a lot of things suddenly become more sure-fire stall/balance breakers.

Some builds are more matchup based than others, true; defensive builds can't and shouldn't be able to cover all threats, and rain, which is the team style I used to get reqs with, can't do much if the opponent's team has plenty of water resists. However, all team styles shouldn't have to suffer from the same fault. I have enjoyed using rain, but I don't want every team I build to have that issue. Sableye can threaten every build that isn't absurdly dedicated to breaking it seems with a matchup loss, provided that it packs the correct team members, due to how it makes you so reliant on having certain breakers. Granted, Manaphy can threaten certain, specific builds a lot and be difficult to beat, but the number of teams to which Sableye does this is far greater, it has a much more widespread impact on the metagame, and so it's clear that there is a difference between the two.
I dunno where the "defensive teams can't and shouldn't be able to cover all threats" comes from, because having a overwhelmingly large number of threats you need to cover and just getting smashed by the ones you can't manage to (despite your efforts) probably constitutes a matchup loss (which we're trying to prevent?). (This is probably veering off-topic so feel free to jump to the next paragraph) If a defensive team has the means to reliably deal with the prominent offensive threats, and the offensive teams have means to reliably deal with the prominent defensive threats, then when those teams go to battle the player who plays/predicts/the hax gods like better will likely win, and I think thats what we're aiming for.

I also don't get what you mean by "absurdly dedicated to breaking it", because most things that do well VS Sableye Stall Builds tend to do well VS defensive/slower builds in general (M-Gardevoir is one that comes to mind). Having to choose from "Certain Breakers" is an overstatement, unless you only want to dedicate one pokemon to do your stallbreaking as opposed to using some sort of offensive core to do it (which isn't as demanding as it seems considering thats a good chunk of 2 major playstyles you're devoting those slots to deal with). And Manaphy threatens a lot more than "certain, specific builds" of teams, RD TG stomps on god knows how many defensive teams with the +6 Rain-Boosted Scald anyways, and Manaphy's good bulk allowing it to set up on most defensive pokemon/the ones it cannot straight up beat are really vulnerable to burns wearing them down. Preparing a team for even the different RDTG variants (of which there are like 3) of manaphy is significantly more straining than preparing for M-Sab from my experience, but that ties back into the "being weak to an offensive threat is different than being weak to a defensive one".

In conclusion, after playing on the suspect ladder and getting reqs, I think that removing Sableye offers some objective improvements to the metagame:
  • It leaves players with a bad matchup more room to outplay this bad matchup.
  • It means players with a good matchup generally have to make more effort to turn this good matchup into a win.
  • It makes teambuilding noticeably less painful.
The thing that only sweetens the deal for me is that with Sableye gone, certain offence builds become more viable. Despite what some may claim, I can assure you that they require more thought than Mega Sableye builds ever did to play. I will vote to ban Sablenite, and anyone who is interested in reducing the number of matchup based losses which standard teams suffer should do the same.
Bad matchup due to not having taken a threat/archetype into account is always going to be there, and its possible to take M-Sableye+Team into account with the (already listed several times in this thread) viable options to beat that archetype of teams (slower/defensive/maybe more passive if its stall-y). Also, removing any prominent threat will make decisions in teambuilding that take it into account noticeably less difficult, removing [prominent offensive threat] will ease the lives of countless team builders who would otherwise have to take it into account when choosing their defensive core.

edits: wording/spelling issues
 
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Was like 1700 before the ladder reset but played with lol teams on the suspect ladder so I will definitely not be able to vote, but I would like to say my opinion on the Sab ban anyway.

Provided that, no matter who you decide to ban, a metagame will always have its S-A-B-shitty rank mons and for the same reason will always have its somehow centralizing threats, it's crucial to consider that if you ban X because reasons (prolly because you think it makes the meta less healthy than it should be, one way or another) there is no assurance that this will make the meta somehow healthier (and that's what suspect tests are made for).

Now, on the sample of games I played, I really fail to see how a meta without Mega-Sab is better than one with him. Hazard stacking HO is everywhere and, as someone already pointed out, if you're banning Mega-Sab 'cause it makes the meta too matchup dependant, how is suicidelead/Bish/Gengar/wallbreakers any better?

Moreover, this is a game with 721 mons, and while in HO-offense you just have to stack-break walls-revenge kill-clean (not insulting HO teams, I played some HO in the past and that's simply how it works), if you want to build a serious stall team, you have to check a huge amount of this growing amount of mons, and since you have just 6 slots on your team, it's hard (and it's going to be always harder, considering that every gen brings more offensive presence) to end up with a team who can somehow decently manage to win against stuff like MegaGyara, MegaMedi, KyureemB, MegaHera, MegaZardY (do I have to go on?) around.
For this reason, depriving the meta of one of the few mons who still make stall somehow viable is indeed one of the worst moves to make teambuilding more various. Even if there are examples of stall/semistall team peaking the ladder without MegaSab (another proof that his presence does not make MegaAlt / MegaBro defensive teams unviable), the simple fact that MegaSab stayed (and I hope will keep staying) in OU led to the fact that someone just didn't splash a random wallbreaker/offensive nuke on the sixt slot when he didn't know how to finish its team (and this does make the meta more balanced and helps smart plays and smart building, not the opposite). I really can't see why people (rightfully) find nothing strange about incorporating checks/counters to top offensive threats in their teams (even in HO you should at least have someone who can effectively revenge kill them) but can't stomach doing the same for defensive threats.

m2c
 
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I have just gotten reqs and will keep my opinion simple.

M-Sableye is a good poke with a welcome place in OU when used outside of full stall. But really, that's where it is mostly used. Full stall teams all look roughly the same, and anytime something creative is done (e.g. introduction of Shedinja), that quickly becomes stale. Without Sableye, stall is still a perfectly viable playstyle, just not as ridiculous and self-limiting.
As for ST Gothitelle, the answer is simple. Without M-Sableye around to keep it in check, it becomes a bit too much and stall suffers more than it should. Also, being trapped kind of sucks and it isn't much fun to wait around for a Gothitelle to rest stall you.

Results will ultimately come down to what people want the metagame to be. I would be happy to have an OU without both of these mons.
 
Just got reqs over the weekend, so i thought i should give me opinion on what i think about the suspect. Tbh, i feel that Shadow tag is the problem. The reason why stall was as consistant as it was was because of how goth can handicap most stallbreakers so that it is easier to handle. TG Manaphy, SD gliscor, CM Clefable ect can all handle Mega Sableye stall, but Goth/Sableye cores are alot more difficult to break due to the reliance of stallbreakers to beat these matchups, and to have your stallbreaker easily handicapped by Goth to the point where most people are forced to run a sub par item like shed shell which is just bad against every other matchup.

I've read some of the comments here that think that Mega Sableye is defined as uncompetative (not recently to my knowledge). I don't believe this is true. Now mega sableye is annoying to deal with, but i wouldn't say "uncompetitive". With Mega eye you can still counterplay against your opponent, unlike Shadow Tag. With shadow Tag, when it comes it there is no plays you can make to help avoid your pokemon from being killed or pp stalled. If you kill a pokemon with specs keldeo, goth will just come and revenge. You bring in a wall or your stallbreaker in and they switch to Goth, then your mon is severely hindered and/or going to get pp stalled.

Shadow Tag has just been a cancer for the game. It takes a key element of the game in switching and prohibits it.

For Mega Sableye i feel it is more of annoyance rather than broken. It may be hard to deal with, but isn't impossible to break. With proper stallbreakers teams can still have a good chance with stall, thus still promoting counterplaying. With Goth, you aren't allowed to switch except if you are running a very subpar item like shed shell, and once it traps something there is no counterplaying being used. Yeah Mega Sableye prevents hazards, but you can still play without hazards. You don't need to rely on rocks being up most of the time. You can still play around Sableye until it is taken care of before getting up rocks. With Goth, it comes in and thats it, and it goes a few ways

1. Your pokemon is tricked and pp stalled to death
2. Your pokemon is tricked and is then basically not effective anymore (for example your stallbreakers)
3. If you do have optimal 1v1 matchup, you aren't allowed to double switch in order to maintain momentum

In conclusion i feel Shadow Tag should be BANNED and Mega Sableye should NOT. Mega Sableye is annoying but i feel isn't "broken, and definitely not "uncompetative".
 

WhiteQueen

the queen bee
is a Tiering Contributorwon the 11th Official Smogon Tournamentis a Past SPL Champion
After playing 50 or so games without Mega Sableye, I do agree that ORAS OU is a lot more fun overall. Voting to ban a Pokemon on the basis that "it's annoying as hell" is not a legitimate reason, however. Team match-up will remain an issue with or without Mega Sableye; it's impossible to check / wall everything with so many threats around. That issue started with BW OU, and it'll continue as more and more new Pokemon get added to the game. Tell me you don't often run into a Rain Dance Manaphy on the ladder; that thing single-handedly demolishes stall teams. Using Mega Sableye isn't risk free and isn't an auto win. You have threats that you need to deal with just like using any other teams. Invincible teams simply don't exist anymore, and sometimes you need to make the optimal plays to win a game despite entering a battle with a team disadvantage. Mega Sableye is not broken. No Ban.

Gothitelle is Satan, Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, breast cancer, aids, and all the bad things in the world combined into one Pokemon. Ban.
 

Mur

If you're not first you're last
I got reqs so I guess I should post my thoughts although anyone voting doesn't really care about what is said in here. I'm also sick and tired so this is gonna be short af and I probably won't explain much because whatever happens happens at this point in the process anyways.

I agree with everyone that stag is dumb af and it literally describes uncompetitive in the tiering framework. Not much else to say since this is probably getting banned with like a 90% super majority at least moving on.

Now sab is a controversial one and I can totally see why some people wouldn't want it to go. I agree that it isn't really broken but I do think that it is incredibly unhealthy for the tier and is the reason why everything other then bulky offense and sab stall/semi stall is incredibly inconsistent which makes the tier feel very matchup reliant during shifts like these. I truly believed that matchup is largely exaggerated in oras but this year's OLT meta was just dreadful and I don't think stag alone is enough by itself to cause this. Honestly this test comes down to whether or not you think the restriction sab causes is unhealthy or not which is highly subjective so I won't really go into depth with any of my reasoning as it will just end in pointless arguments with other's opinions. Like my TR nigga rey said sab is just a typical case of a restricting mon commonly seen earlier in generations so removing it is certainly in the right direction toward making oras a better meta. I don't claim that removing sab will 100% cure the tier but removing it is most certainly a correct step in achieving that goal.

So yeah my votes are to ban stag because it's uncompetitive and ban sab because of it's restrictions on the tier are what is shifting the meta to this unstable state and banning stag alone will not solve it imo at the very least.
 

bubblymaika

I'd sell you to satan for one corn chip
is an Artist Alumnus
So I unfortunately was unable to make reqs (hax and gimmicks are a wonderful thing) and won't be able to because finals, but I figured I should post my thoughts anyways after observing and battling in both tours and ladder.

Shadow tag's just borked. I really don't think I need to say anything more than what has already been said, except for mentioning wob's ability to snag a kill or a free set-up opportunity every game if used correctly (especially with the custap-dbond set). Encore the opponent, if it's a status/hazard, switch to the set up sweeper. Attacking move? Depending on the damage, go to something that resists/is immune for set up/a kill, mirror coat/counter, or dbond if custap and you're on the brink of death. Don't know much about the tickle set, I'll be honest (If anyone can fill in that gap, that'd be much appreciated). As much as I love wob the fat, I'm afraid it's gonna have to (justifiably IMO) drop with Satan.

As for Mega Sableye, if I made the reqs I would have voted ban. Honestly, the ladders and tours have been really fun with this guy gone, and I've seen a bunch of pokemon shine more because of it. In particular...
  • Mega Alakazam
  • Breloom
  • Megacham
  • Chomp and Lando
  • Gengar
  • Mew
  • Spinners
  • Ferrothorn and Klefki
  • and probably more I'm missing cause my mind's on finals atm
I've also been seeing much more creative stall, balance and offense since the beginning of the suspect, which is a huge plus IMO. The hazards honestly are not as bad as people make them out to be. Sure there was a bunch at the beginning, but that's "new toy syndrome" so to speak. With mega sableye gone, spinners are able to to their jobs at controlling hazards much better, as well as certain defoggers such as Scizor.

Sidenote: all these "blah will be broken if it goes" reminds me of the aegislash suspect when everyone was all "MEGACHAM AND HERA WILL DESTROY THE TIER!1!" I'll be honest, I was one of them. I was wrong, and I feel like people are likely going to be wrong this time. Even if they are right, we'll tackle that hurdle when we get there. We need to focus on the problems NOW in the tier, and right now the problems are shadow tag and sab. Ban on both.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Yo worth noting that this is the suspect ladder where people are literally trying to use things that are sableye-weak. The meta low-key isn't going to change much (goth will have by far a greater effect, imo).

Sure, medicham isn't awesome against sableye, but if isn't like sableye was on every single team. It was something consider, sure, especially as you approach the stall-infested upper ladder, but it wasn't _that_ big a deal (relative to what people are making it out to be rn. Medicham has been rising through the viability rankings for the past while regardless. Same with klefki. It's a bit hard to quantify given that they have both existed in the meta forever, but their individual popularities have been fluctuationing throughout, but I doubt that sableye had a negligible effect on klefki's use in general until sableye stall recently skyrocketed in viability with the popularity of goth.

I'm very sleepy, so idk what I just said, but the point is that this meta is absolutely not indicative of the actual new meta (if sableye were banned). The point of a suspect test is literally to try out all of the shit that struggled with sableye in some capacity; that is why those mons are everywhere. Even if it is banned, everything will pretty much normalize (relative to the suspect meta <---- this is important to my point. Im not saying there will be no effect) to about where it was before (with only mons like mew and somewhat medicham gaining better viability). I would predict that without goth, sableye (and stall) may decline in usage anyway, which would have a similar effect.

I would absolutely prefer sableye gone... because then it is easier and "more fun" to Teambuild, but that is absolutely not a valid reason to ban things, and that much is obvious.
 

McMeghan

Dreamcatcher
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis the 5th Smogon Classic Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 14 Championis a defending SPL Championis a Past SPL Champion
Big Chungus Winner
Some of my thoughts en vrac after playing on the ladder.

I wanted to try out Stall without Sableye. To be more accurate, I wanted to separate Shadow Tag from Sableye and use GothStall without its iconic Mega, to see how well it'd work, and if Sableye was essential to its success. I started by using this variant, featuring Mew over Mega-Sableye and Mega-Venusaur over Amoonguss. I wanted to try out that Mew set in particular.
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 12 SpD / 108 Spe
Impish Nature
- Taunt
- Soft-Boiled
- Scald
- Knock Off

Gothitelle (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 128 HP / 128 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Psychic
- Thunder Wave
- Rest

Skarmory (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Brave Bird
- Defog
- Roost

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Seismic Toss
- Heal Bell
- Soft-Boiled

Quagsire (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Recover

Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 144 SpD / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

The team worked quite well, but I disliked how Mega-Medicham and Mega-Lopunny pressured it if paired with the right Pokemons. The biggest problem however was Gengar. The team still went off a strong start (21-0) and I switched to an another variant after ~25-30 games.

For the next team, I just used regular GothStall with Mega-Slowbro over Mega-Sableye. Foul Play Amoonguss helped tremendously in checking Gengar.
Slowbro @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 64 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Slack Off

Gothitelle (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 128 HP / 128 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Psychic
- Thunder Wave
- Rest

Skarmory (M) @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Brave Bird
- Defog
- Roost

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Seismic Toss
- Heal Bell
- Soft-Boiled

Quagsire (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Recover

Amoonguss (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 184 Def / 56 SpD / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Clear Smog
- Foul Play
- Spore

What I can say based on my ladder games is that GothStall is still a very solid team, even without Sableye. Gothitelle is still your be-all and end-all answer to most of the issues Stall encounter. I found it useful in pretty much every games I've played, especially without Sableye at the team's disposal. When I wasn't facing a particulary anti-Stall mon that absolutely needed Gothitelle to be dealt with (such as Manaphy or Togekiss), I used Gothitelle to take a big advantage in the hazard-game. Gothitelle and Skarmory form a really good pair to keep pretty much every hazard setter in the tier in check. It's ridiculously easy to trick a Scarf on the Pokemons that threaten Skarmory in some way, such as Heatran, Ferrothorn or Fire Blast Garchomp.

Something I want to say is that, most of the time, a balance or offense team has to quickly develop its strategy if it wants to beat a Stall team, as otherwise, it might have trouble breaking it if the Stall team is given enough time to set-up what's needed to play around the other team's tools. In these match-ups, it's easy to capitalize off that fact to handle their anti-Stall strategy from the get-go. An example is leading Gothitelle vs their Tornadus-T or Heatran and incapacitate them, which grant you a ton of breating room for the following of the game, if not the outright win.

Here are some replays of the games I've played. Unfortunatly, I couldn't save more of them because the replays were down for half my ladder run.
  • Game 1 vs Bulky Offense; their only way to pressure the team is getting SRs up ASAP and try to get the momentum going. Quickly disposed of with Gothitelle.
  • Game 2 vs Bulky Offense; same here.
  • Game 3 vs Rain Offense; the match-up get a little trickier here, there is a Kabutops and a LO Tornadus-T. I poison Tornadus-T, giving me a lot of breathing room. Gothitelle finished off Kabutops and it was my plan to Scarf Para Torandus-T had I not poison it.
  • Game 4 vs Sand Bulky Offense; Gothitelle has no troubles PP Stalling Ferrothorn out of threatening options (Leech Seed and Spikes) so that I can play safely around the rest of this guy's team.
There are a ton of games where I tricked a Scarf on a Garchomp only to PPStall it or force it into getting defogged/PP Stalled later in the game. Really, Gothitelle and Skarmory just go so well together. You don't even need Sableye to get the upper hand in the hazard game, and that's what my ladder run taught me at the very least. That's only one advantage gained from running Gothitelle in a stall team, the other one obviously is taking care of the Pokemons such as Manaphy or Tornadus-T that can pose a threat to Stall teams.

Anyway, my premise is that GothStall is unhealthy for the metagame (but not inherently broken), for a bunch of reasons people have mentionned in this thread and in the Policy Review threads. Now that I'm sure Sableye isn't needed for Gothstall to suceed, I will vote ban on Shadow Tag.
---

Now onto Sableye.

I do believe Mega-Sableye has the potential to promote uncompetitiveness, and I talk from experience here. I have used a Mega-Sableye/Regenerator team for a while and there are a lot of games I straight-up won from team preview with 0 thoughts involved thanks to Mega-Sableye's ability to completely deny hazards and abusing this fact with the Regenerator's Pokemons. In the same vein, the Wonder Trio Shedinja's team provokes similar match-ups. On the other hand, I think these situations happen not nearly as often as with GothStall, and it's a lot easier to play around them through teambuilding.

At the end of the day, while I think Sableye can cause brainless games, independantly from GothStall, it doesn't do it to such a degree that it deserves a Ban in my opinion.
 

CrashinBoomBang

außerirdisch, anunnaki
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
well guess it's about that time.

disclaimer if i ever say sableye i obviously mean mega sableye i probably just can't be assed to write it out

So, after following the Pro-Sableye-Ban-Side's arguments since this suspect test started (and I guess before that), people trying to justify Sableye as broken or uncompetitive seems to be based upon 3 misconceptions:


i) Sableye is the Pokemon that forces you to run "ridiculous countermeasures" (think Shed Shell Togekiss/Manaphy, Mono Attacking Refresh Mega Pidgeot, etc)

This one seems to have mostly been wiped out by now, at least, but I can't believe I actually had to read sentences such as "Sorry, unlike you I don't want to run 2 Shed Shell users to beat Mega Sableye Stall". As an argument to ban Sableye, mind you, not as an argument to ban Shadow Tag or something along those lines. I can't even begin to understand where this train of thought came from but, seeing how it's mostly gone by now, I'll focus on the other two. I shouldn't even have to elaborate on why that argument is nothing but a huge mountain of cock-a-dookie at this point, so I won't.


ii) Sableye limits the hazard game, especially against Stall, to an unreasonable degree, making it impossible to wear Stall teams down via said entry hazards

Ignoring the part where there's still a few Stealth Rock users that do just fine against Stall/Sableye, especially with Gothitelle out of the picture, think about how many of these teams a) reliably keep entry hazards up b) can actually do something with these entry hazards. I don't know why people are acting like defensive Landorus-T and Tank Chomp (just to name two of the most common ones people named that have "trouble against Sableye") suddenly have the easiest-to-set-up Stealth Rocks of their life with Sableye gone, seeing how neither of them has any recovery at all (well, Landorus does sometimes, but even that uses RH most of the time nowadays) and Skarmory, if it really wanted to keep those mean hazards off, would just run Toxic to punish lock those two down completely, meaning that hazards still wouldn't be up if the guy using stall isn't a completely incompetent baboon. That said, I also don't know why people act like hazards allow you to "freely outplay" or "wear down" Stall to the degree of the game being winnable regardless of whether Sableye is on the opposing team or not lol, you literally need to get 10-15 double switches in a row correct with SR up just to have a chance to kill something. Now, of course, we are supposed to take into account the individual skill level of both players, and how the better player should win a majority of the time, but unless you are some kind of miraculous, mindreading mastermind you are not going to get that many predictions right (if you do I wonder why you play this instead of the lottery or some game show or whatever but thats beside the point), and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that, at some point, Stall can literally throw away their most dispensable Pokemon to get a free heal for whatever is wounded and needs to be healed up, so you'll be back to doing that again. Yes, winnable in theory thanks to the presence of Stealth Rock, but I don't know why people act like this is some Pokemon Stadium ingame AI abuse where you can literally double switch on the computer forever. In a realistic scenario, this is never going to happen. This is not Sableye's fault, this is how Stall works in XY/ORAS. I don't know why people are painting Sableye the criminal here when it's pretty obvious that any kind of team without actual win conditions (except for the occassional Suicune/Slowbro/Sableye) is going to try and "win on preview". Let me tell you, Sableye/Chansey/Skarmory/Quagsire/Amoonguss/Filler (not Gothitelle, that's a case for itself) will get just as many wins on preview as Venusaur/Mew/Heatran/Chansey/Skarmory/Quagsire if people completely and utterly refuse to prepare for it. It's not like the tools to break stall are scarce or in short supply without Gothitelle fucking with 95% of them, and pretty much every team is gonna lose to the former as much as to the latter if they outright refuse to prepare by using, you now, one of the plentiful Mega and non-Mega Pokemon able to obliterate a majority of the stall teams. (hint: not every team runs Spikes to wear down everything on Stall well sucks if your SR mon loses to Skarmory now huh). Which brings me to my next point.


iii) Because of ii), Sableye is a huge matchup factor and decides game on preview by itself with its bare presence

As I already explained above, people seem to make this Gothitelle/Sableye mixup bullshit a lot. I still haven't seen one convincing argument from the Pro-Sableye-Ban-Side that suggests Sableye being the factor of these "preview wins". All of this so called evidence is based off of one team with Gothitelle that has run rampant for a long time (and that, as a few people have pointed out, barely even needs Sableye to succeed; I also have no idea where the original idea that "Gothitelle can be worn down by SR if I can get it up came from but that's a different story) as well as a pathetic excuse for a team in the form of Sableye/Shedinja that literally loses to half the metagame. Now, I can accept being the full stall being pretty fucked just because of how specific it got as far as counterplay was involved, but the Sableye/Shedinja team literally lost to half the metagame. I don't know how you can call this any form of "matchup nonsense" at all (if anything it's Dugtrio causing this I'm starting to see a pattern here) and I also don't quite understand why people find it so ridiculously difficult to bring up actual examples that "win via matchup with Sableye" other than Gothitelle full stall and some obscure Shedinja/Sableye team that raked in a bunch of matchup wins because people weren't prepared for it in the least (when it's really not hard to be sufficiently prepared without even trying). And, again, how is that team getting any more "auto wins" than the Venusaur/Mew/Heatran/Chansey/Skarmory/Quagsire team posted above? How is Sableye the deciding factor here? How is it unreasonable to prepare for an (objectively, like come on) worse team but not for a regular stall team like that? Because you can't be expected to keep Spikes up spamming Balance all day? How is this any different from Offense/Stall having to deal with Pokemon restricting their playstyle such as Mega Lopunny or Mega Heracross? Because there's a Sableye which you don't like playing against (I'll allude to this further down the road)? The side in favor of Sableye's ban has brought forth literally nothing but a bunch of subjective, minor and very, very specific (excuse the language) bullbooty that doesn't even apply in the grand scheme of things. If it does for some reason, then they sure haven't proven it in the slightest, which is pretty heavy considering that the onus is on them to prove that Sableye is broken/uncompetitive lol.



Which brings me to just that point: What are the actual arguments the other side has brought forth? I'm still really confused as to what they're trying to say, and apparently most of them are too, seeing how pretty much every person I've asked "do you want to ban Sableye and, if so, why is it broken/uncompetitive/whatever" has pretty much just responded with a kindhearted "it's not really broken I just don't like playing against it". And no, this isn't even made up, this really happened. The side that wants to ban Sableye can't even come up with actual arguments as to why it deserves the boot or falls under any of the characteristics that would define it as "banworthy". Unless, of course, you count the misguided, personal agenda of "the game would be a lot more fun without it around".

So I urge everyone here to remember back to the early ORAS days, the Mega Metagross suspect in particular. This was another case of a bunch of misguided/misdirected anger towards a Pokemon that was not broken/uncompetitive in the slightest (tell me what you want, but I and literally 80% of the people I talked to literally voted to ban it because we "wanted the Metagame to change", blowing everything about Metagross out of proportion while also making up a bunch of nonsense to sound like we have a point). We already made this mistake once, and it's the only suspect I ever voted on which made me actually regret the way I voted; thankfully Metagross was saved by the voters at the end of the day, but that's probably the most egregious example of "misguided fingerpointing towards a specific Pokemon to get it banned because we don't like it and want it to go, regardless of whether it's actually broken". I call it Project Scapegoat. The point is, the only "convincing" argument that has been brought up is the fact that "getting rid of Sableye makes the game more fun". Now, I'm not one against fun, but seeing how Smogon's philosophy is based around making the game more competitive and only banning what is actually broken/uncompetitive to an unreasonable degree, should this really be happening? I guess this is a plea towards Smogon users to not ban Sableye, but most people already seem to have made up their mind. I gain and/or lose nothing from Sableye's ban either way, I'm just one of the biggest supporters of actually following the philosophy behind the tiering system, and in this tiering system there really shouldn't be any personal bias towards suspects as hard as it is; all that should count is whether the Pokemon is unreasonably uncompetitive/broken/unhealthy towards the metagame in general; Sableye is none of those.

If Sableye goes, then I daresay that Smogon's tiering system has actually failed for once. Metagross was a close call but we avoided it. However, if this goes through, then I do hope to see Scald and Thunder Wave next on the chopping block, for they annoy my playstyle greatly and getting rid of them makes the game (subjectively, of course) more fun and rewarding, regardless of whether they're actually banworthy.

not gonna comment on gothitelle because that's a can of worms in itself and most ppl have done a pretty good effort as to why it should go. at least theres arguments there.

 
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Just adding my two cents after having played on the suspect ladder to make reqs, though I'll try to be brief about it seeing as the suspect is almost over.


Once shadow tag is gone a multitude of options to break Mega Sableye stall suddenly arise. Some examples are life orb taunt tornadus-t, rain dance manaphy, taunt heatran (plume burn/magma storm that sableye), clefable variants (think cm stored power or cm knock off), mega gyarados with taunt/substitute, all non-scarf hoopa-unbound, most gengar sets, mega gardevoir (preferably taunt), nasty plot heal bell togekiss, calm mind suicune, mega heracross, sd crawdaunt, the list goes on... Basically the point is that you don't need hazards up at all to be able to beat a stall team, but you do have to take it into account during teambuilding just like you take into account a solid talonflame check when building an offensive team. If people really do insist on needing stealth rocks then there are pokemon like offensive garchomp, clefable, earth plate landorus-t and heatran that can make a serious attempt at setting it up against mega sableye stall (whether you achieve this is up to how the plays you make work out).


In the end I fail to see how stall teams with Mega Sableye are any harder to beat than ordinary mega venusaur or mega slowbro stall once shadow tag Gothitelle no longer exists to take care of your stallbreaker. So unless someone can convince me that Mega Sableye stall really needs a different approach to tackle I will be voting no ban on that and obviously ban on Gothitelle. Totally agreeing with cbb's post above but just wanted to add some more concrete pokemon arguments/examples.
 
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Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
M-Sableye is cancerous outside of STag support (I mean, that Dugtrio Sableye team? Ew.). Goth is a perfectly viable pokemon on offensive-based teams; I've been trying a Goth + Gar + Skarm offensive core to take down Defog / Rapid Spin answers. Goth has uses outside of supporting Sableye. Honestly I think Sableye is more unhealthy than Goth is.

On top of that, banning Shadow Tag means banning Wobbs, and Wobbs isn't unhealthy for the metagame either. Trapping in general is a strat that isn't bad for the metagame; Dutrio was / is pretty neat itself, and no one is cracking down on Arena Trap.

I've said for the longest time that Sableye needed to be banned (back when prestigious badged users liked to laugh at me), and I stand by it. I don't feel like you'll see many Goth issues once Sableye is gone. This is just people catching on to a popular trend and trying to break it's "OP" quality. Sableye is the real unhealthy threat. Goth will simmer down and go back to its rightful, unbroken place once Sabs is gone and the trend dies.
 
M-Sableye is cancerous outside of STag support (I mean, that Dugtrio Sableye team? Ew.). Goth is a perfectly viable pokemon on offensive-based teams; I've been trying a Goth + Gar + Skarm offensive core to take down Defog / Rapid Spin answers. Goth has uses outside of supporting Sableye. Honestly I think Sableye is more unhealthy than Goth is.

On top of that, banning Shadow Tag means banning Wobbs, and Wobbs isn't unhealthy for the metagame either. Trapping in general is a strat that isn't bad for the metagame; Dutrio was / is pretty neat itself, and no one is cracking down on Arena Trap.

I've said for the longest time that Sableye needed to be banned (back when prestigious badged users liked to laugh at me), and I stand by it. I don't feel like you'll see many Goth issues once Sableye is gone. This is just people catching on to a popular trend and trying to break it's "OP" quality. Sableye is the real unhealthy threat. Goth will simmer down and go back to its rightful, unbroken place once Sabs is gone and the trend dies.
No one is cracking down on Arena Trap or Trapping in General because neither is as ridiculous as Goth + Shadow Tag.

Arena Trap is ineffective on Flying Types, things with Air Balloon and Levitators, all of which are common in the Metagame. Not only that but that Arena Trap exists only on three Pokemon: Diglett, Dugtrio and Trapinch and only one of those manages to break in OU as viable. Dugtrio itself also suffers from a multitude of problems.

Shadow Tag is absurd because nothing escapes it except Ghosts or Shed Shell. The two users of Shadow Tag are Psychics and you'll most likely never be switching them in on Ghosts in the first place and all the things that you'd put Shed Shell on to escape Shadow Tag are terrible item options for it.

That Goth is so effective outside of Goth/Sable stall does not help your case. If anything it just shows even more how ridiculous the damn thing is.
 

WhiteQueen

the queen bee
is a Tiering Contributorwon the 11th Official Smogon Tournamentis a Past SPL Champion
The thing with Arena Trap and Magnet Pull is that it's either a hit or a miss. If your opponent doesn't have a Heatran or Tyranitar (what else is Dugtrio trapping?), Dugtrio is pretty much a waste of space. The same could be said about Magnezone. If your opponent isn't Spiking with Skarmory or Ferrothorn, again, it's a waste of space. It's a hit or miss, and most of the time it's a miss. As for Gothitelle, it's NEVER dead weight. It can always Trick another Pokemon a ChoiceScarf to ruin that Pokemon's effectiveness, or it can Trick then kill a particular fat Pokemon by stalling it out. Gothitelle needs to go.

As I said previously, Gothitelle is Satan, Hitler, Kim Jung III, Godzilla, Your Angry Girlfriend, AIDS, breast cancer, erectile dysfunction, world hunger, and everything evil in the world combined into one Pokemon.
 
Trying to keep it short, I'll just copy an argument I had in a PS room.

Ban.

[23:59:08] Orda-Y: It makes the hazard situation too one sided. The problem isn't really that it keeps hazards off the field.
[23:59:40] Orda-Y: Compare it to a really good defogger that can come in on almost anything and clear the hazards you set
[23:59:54] Orda-Y: that still isn't what m-sab does
[00:00:14] Orda-Y: it's more like a really good spinner, since it keeps your own hazards*
[00:01:39] Orda-Y: m-sab makes games where you have no hazards and they have rocks + 3 spike layers eventually.
[00:02:01] Orda-Y: that's what we banned deoxys-d for (fast taunt + hazard setter, then use momentum/defiant to keep it that way)

*also doesn't lose a turn to clear them.

The difference to
is that msab teams get their hazards slowly while deoxsys-d did it really fast (and was efficient in combining roles). But after status and move distribution, the battle between hazard setters and hazard removers is a decisive win for hazard setters. Usually both players get to set hazards, and it ends up somewhat even. This counterplay is what is removed; you can't even out the opposing hazards with your own.
 
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MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
I would say that the difference is that sableye doent have rocks, spikes, .... actually, it is absolutely nothing like deoxys lol

I guess sableye + 2 other pokemon is like deoxys (by your terms), but that is half of a team.

The other part of your argument was that the hazard removers are pressured by momentum and defiant.

I really hate playing against sableye stall what with all of the offensive pressure (chansey 2hkos my skarm after knock off, 4 sr switches, and a turn of parahax ugh I can't defog) and defensive life orb bisharps flying around.

Or I guess you shove sableye onto a more offensive team, but then you lose out of that momentum factor that you mentioned (sableye is nothing but a momentum kill). Plus, without the support of 5 other mons as a defensive backbone, it doesn't have anywhere near the survivability that it does on stall
 
To OrdA: you make it look like it's too difficult to spin on Sableye. Unlike the offensive hazards stack teams you mentioned, which put an absurd pressure on spinners, teams which pack Sableye are a lot more passive so you are given more opportunities to spin. Exca and LO Starmie (sometimes bulky Starmie if you burn huehuehue) beat Sableye as an example. And Sab doesnt stop Defog of course.
So I dont agree with the claim for which sabs team will comfortably keep its hazards up while preventing the opponents. (well, unless you remove or invalidate their spinner/defogger with goti)
 
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I'm lost in the sea of all these posts. Since when did being unable to switch Pokemon become uncompetitive? Everyone is forgetting that the Gothitelle user, doesn't just throw Goth in without any consequences. There have been many times where my opponent predicted my Gothitelle switch in and punished me really badly for it. Shadow Tag from both views can be seen as uncompetitive or skillfull.

Uncompetitive - In the sense that you are unable to switch a pokemon out, thus you are required to stay in the game and removes possible counterplay and freedom.

Skillfull - In the sense, the user is able counterplay the opponent and trap a pokemon that would otherwise be very difficult to wear out due to the opponent being able to switch out to a better defensive option.

Some examples..

1. Beedrill vs Gardevoir, beedrill would win with a poison jab ohko, but your opponent has a skarmory and majority of your team doesn't do enough to threaten skarmory and Beedrill cannot perform his job at beating gardevoir. Gothitelle's STag skillfull use comes into play if the beedrill player double switches into gothitelle predicting the skarmory. This was a SKILLFULL PLAY, by the beedrill user. He risked gardevoir staying in possibly ohkoing or seriously injuring gothitelle in order to trap skarm and was successful. Gothitelle now prevents skarm from switching out, so you can use goth and cripple skarmory, allowing the remainder of your team to have an easier time handling a pokemon that otherwise would have given you serious trouble.

2. Zapdos vs Gyarados and there is SR on zapdos side of the field, you have Zapdos+Goth vs Gyarados+Hippowdon. Hippowdon walls Zapdos, so the gyarados would naturally switch out to Hippowdon and just keep spamming Stealth rock without worry of being damaged. The SKILLFUL use of Gothitelle and STag would be to risk double switching Zapdos and sending out your Gothitelle on a predicted Hippowdon switch. Now Gothitelle can cripple Hippowdon and relieve the stress it had to get SR off the field. Hippowdon being stuck now has 2 options, Earthquake and try and take our Gothitelle, or Stealth rock and allow Stag to setup. Before the later reset with all my games played, about 7/10 of my opponents went for stealth rock and got themselves set up on and lost. The remaining 3/10 Earthquaked my gothitelle and because Gothitelle doesnt have amazing bulk, it took alot of damage and was unable to particpate in the remainder of the game because bringing in Gothitelle is not easy.


Most people hating on STag havnt really used it outside of Stall or some form of gimmic teams. I can't blame most people for wanting STag gone, but because our META is soo garbage and gamefreak hasn't given us enough variety in 'Good' pokemon we are made to run the same redundant pokemon in order to be competitive. Using uncommon pokemon in this meta means a player has to plan for pokemon that will cause really hard times and often times trying to get good coverage and answers for your team leaves you building the same damn cookie cutter teams that you see every 1 in 4 games.


Most comments about STag being uncompetitive seem to stem from a Stall players perspective and doesn't really reflect every other use for Shadow Tag.

Too busy IRL to get reqs, but just want to enlighten voters that there are other ways of thinking about STag.

Magnet Pull and Arena Trap do similar things, the only difference is that more pokemon are affected by STag, but that doesn't change the general idea that is being pushed out that being unable to switch pokemon at will is 'Uncompetitive'. Just like how Magnet Pull was countered by steels running Shed Shell, pokemon you don't want getting trapped, can run Shed Bell. If your next complaint is that STag prevents you from running specific items, then your out of luck. That's the way life goes. I'd love to run CB/LO hoopa all the time but I'm often facing faster yet frailer mons that require me to run Scarf. You just got to adapt to the meta and start innovating.

Hopefully this helps a little, as I'm not seeing anyone else defending STag because majority of people don't use it enough within teambuilding /play to really understand the in's and out's and benefits and the skill and thought process required to use STag.

Mega Sableye, I leave in everyone elses hands, I could care less, I'm forced to run manaphy because of how the meta is, so stall doesn't bother me as much anymore.

Note: Beedrill, Hippowdon, Gothitelle, Zapdos, Manaphy, Scizor (Hopefully to be replaced by Genesect, if he ever comes back) is the Team I use often and referred to in my 2 examples.
 
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