np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - Run The Jewels

[megacrazyhand]

While I don't have a strong opinion on Mega-Sableye (which I don't really use) in regards to it I can leave only a note or two about how I've dealt with it in the past: Unaware Clefable. That said, there definitely doesn't seem to be a wealth of options to swiftly beat Mega-Sableye and while I have no strong feelings for or against its ban I can understand why it would be banned.

With Shadow Tag, I say ban Gothitelle. Even back in XY this thing was scary, Specs Gothitelle can trap and kill Mega Venusaur and then trick its item (usually to a Chansey). With the rise of Mega-Sableye stall, Scarfed Gothitelle definitely got a lot more viable with its ability to trap and destroy stall breakers. Thanks to its wide movepool and ability to cripple all none mega Pokemon with Trick its a huge support to Mega Sableye stall. A well played Gothitelle can win its player the game by trapping and destroying the choice Pokemon that threaten its player's team. I feel that, more than anything, Gothitelle has taken advantage of the metagame changes between XY and ORAS to drastically increase its viability and overall threat level in team match ups.

I guess my personal opinion would be to remove Gothitelle from the meta before removing Mega Sableye to see if Mega Sableye stall becomes more or less manageable.

 

[Mijzelffan]

Some of the arguments for mega sableye are ridiculous, "you can kill it" isn't an argument as to why it isn't broken. Deoxys-s and greninja also get 2ko'd by most attacks but that didn't stop them from doing their jobs excellently. Any physical attacker you send in on it risks a burn and mega sableye won't be sent in on a physical attacker that can kill it. Magic bounce is of course not always active on a sableye team but saying to just play around it is like saying to just play around aegislash's king shield and you could make the same argument for shadow tag. I know every suspect test the same fallacies are repeated but mega sableye seems to really have it bad.

 

[MQJinx]

Mega Sableye is so limiting. It has the ability to outright control hazard play limiting what can threaten it, set up hazards, and not be big Gothitelle bait/crippled by Will-O-Wisp/threatened or walled by common hazard removers. This forces the opponent to make risky plays just to set up hazards and keep them up, while you can just switch in Sableye and keep it healthy against hazard setters due to Magic Bounce and a high amount of bulk, even if this play can be seen from a mile away. This doesn't work with stuff like Espeon and Mega Absol due to their frailty. Also, when I have to run niche sets like TauntDD Mega Gyara just to use Gyara and get past this thing there is a clear sign of overcentralization. Skill Swap is the same principle. And to those that claim that it's setup bait, it can pull off some nasty surprises like Foul Play and Metal Burst. As mentioned before, Mega Sableye essentially turns a 6 mon team into 6 individuals which the Sableye player can just respond with little issue. And was it mentioned that it can spinblock? A metagame without Mega Sableye would allow equality between hazard control and allow for more flexible teambuilding. Ban.

Gothitelle is also a massive problem, as it's able to remove a lot of stallbreakers that try to get past Sableye, courtesy of Shadow Tag. Manaphy and Heatran will likely not walk away from Gothitelle without a Tricked Choice Scarf, Gliscor has to run sub and predict the switch in order to ensure safety, and Thundurus can't freely paralyze stuff anymore. The point of running Shed Shell on stallbreakers like Manaphy and Togekiss, again, shows overcentralization. Let's also not forget that it can still work on offense to trap any wall to allow a teammate to sweep. Even if you decide to run wallbreakers like Gardevoir as a Sableye answer, Gothitelle can adapt and run Thunder Wave, making what is likely your only chance against Sableye easy pickings for it/its teammates. How you build your team shouldn't be limited based on a certain matchup. For Shadow Tag, Ban. (and gothorita and wobb are still limiting, just in a less evil way)

 

[Ace Trainer Ganondorf]

Sorry, I'm new here, and maybe I missed something, but what is the definition of centralizing again? I played OU for a long time before making an account here, and I encountered a Mega Sableye about twice in every 50 games at most. Last I checked, the usage stat for Sableye-M is around 6%. How is Sableye over centralizing, but Garchomp isn't? I see Garchomp a lot more, and I have more trouble dealing with it than M Sableye. Is there an underlying assumption that all teams must use entry hazards and anything that stops hazards is inherently broken? I don't understand. I guess I'll leave this one to the smart people...

Edit: Here are the stats from August '15, which were the most recent I could find. Sableye and its Mega have consistently stayed in the realm of 6% so it doesn't matter much anyway.

| 33 | Sableye | 6.505%|

Now compare that with these 5:

| 1 | Garchomp | 26.533% |
| 2 | Landorus-Therian | 24.602% |
| 3 | Heatran | 20.343% |
| 4 | Scizor | 19.942% |
| 5 | Keldeo | 17.125% |

Which of these Pokemon are over centralizing again?

Here's the link to the Smogon thread:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-usage-based-tier-update-august-2015.3545972/

 

[Jay Santos]

AM edit: delete post you responded to.


Bans not work like that. It's not just the point if the pokemon is OP, and what he can or would do in Uber.
Mega-Sableye is just centralizing the building progress and have a fearfull matchup against Balanced.

Mega-Sableye is bad for the metagame in my opinion, he forces players to use things like mold breaker sr Exca and so Exca is losing his offense coverage and power. But my most important thing is, you can't toxic or burn it so you can't wear it slowly down. You can't wall Mega Sableye that easy. For example:
Megazard X is one of the most treats in the OU tier, but you can "easy" stop it with, Prankster T.Wave, Prankster Toxic, Full health Slowbro T.Wave/Toxic, Toxic Raikou ( Megazard likes to switch in Raikou usually). You see you have some options to deal with Charizard X and these are only status variants, you can stop it with other combinations. But Mega-Sableye bounce them all back and thats what I think is to much for a bulky pokemon. Physical attackers can't switch in or just set up on it cause WoW. Sableye have also the access to Calm Mind what gives him a fantastic overall bulk.

Shadow Tag:
If we ban mega-Sableye I think we can give Shadow Tag Goth another chance. I don't think Stag is so "uncompetetive" it's just annoying. Of course when you see a Goth in your opponents team you have to be more carful then usually but it's nothing impossible. Volt-Turn teams and Balanced teams with a good Volt-Turn core can deal and Stag don't causes a unbeatable matchup like Mega-Sableye it do.

 

[Albacore]

Sorry, I'm new here, and maybe I missed something, but what is the definition of centralizing again? I played OU for a long time before making an account here, and I encountered a Mega Sableye about twice in every 50 games at most. Last I checked, the usage stat for Sableye-M is around 6%. How is Sableye over centralizing, but Garchomp isn't? I see Garchomp a lot more, and I have more trouble dealing with it than M Sableye. Is there an underlying assumption that all teams must use entry hazards and anything that stops hazards is inherently broken? I don't understand. I guess I'll leave this one to the smart people...

It's centralising because using Sableye renders a team immune to certain common strategies, and therefore, in order to beat Sableye teams, many teams are forced to change their sets to something which is overall worse for the team, but handles Sableye. It's difficult to truly beat Sableye while maintaining effectiveness against other teams, and being forced to compromise like that creates a lot of pressure when it comes to teambuilding.

Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but its influence does make teambulding harder in many ways, and that's why people claim it's centralizing. Usage is mostly irrelevant here, Typhlosion could have 50% usage and it still wouldn't be centralising, since no well-built team would be weak to it (and thus need to be modified because of it) even if it wasn't specifically taken into account, unlike Sableye.

 

[Ace Trainer Ganondorf]

AM edit: delete post you responded to.


Bans not work like that. It's not just the point if the pokemon is OP, and what he can or would do in Uber.
Mega-Sableye is just centralizing the building progress and have a fearfull matchup against Balanced.

Mega-Sableye is bad for the metagame in my opinion, he forces players to use things like mold breaker sr Exca and so Exca is losing his offense coverage and power. But my most important thing is, you can't toxic or burn it so you can't wear it slowly down. You can't wall Mega Sableye that easy. For example:
Megazard X is one of the most treats in the OU tier, but you can "easy" stop it with, Prankster T.Wave, Prankster Toxic, Full health Slowbro T.Wave/Toxic, Toxic Raikou ( Megazard likes to switch in Raikou usually). You see you have some options to deal with Charizard X and these are only status variants, you can stop it with other combinations. But Mega-Sableye bounce them all back and thats what I think is to much for a bulky pokemon. Physical attackers can't switch in or just set up on it cause WoW. Sableye have also the access to Calm Mind what gives him a fantastic overall bulk.

Shadow Tag:
If we ban mega-Sableye I think we can give Shadow Tag Goth another chance. I don't think Stag is so "uncompetetive" it's just annoying. Of course when you see a Goth in your opponents team you have to be more carful then usually but it's nothing impossible. Volt-Turn teams and Balanced teams with a good Volt-Turn core can deal and Stag don't causes a unbeatable matchup like Mega-Sableye it do.

Yeah it's not like Sableye is one of the best megas in Ubers, and currently ranked above Yveltal Mewtwo, Rayquaza, and Primal Kyogre or anything...

It's centralising because using Sableye renders a team immune to certain common strategies, and therefore, in order to beat Sableye teams, many teams are forced to change their sets to something which is overall worse for the team, but handles Sableye. It's difficult to truly beat Sableye while maintaining effectiveness against other teams, and being forced to compromise like that creates a lot of pressure when it comes to teambuilding.

Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but its influence does make teambulding harder in many ways, and that's why people claim it's centralizing. Usage is mostly irrelevant here, Typhlosion could have 50% usage and it still wouldn't be centralising, since no well-built team would be weak to it (and thus need to be modified because of it) even if it wasn't specifically taken into account, unlike Sableye.

Why is team building such a concern when Sableye is barely ever seen compared to the top ten in OU? If you lose truly every game in which you encounter Sableye-M, that still means that you lose 6% of your games max due to Sableye. Also, if he truly were this powerful, wouldn't more people use him? If he really countered all of those common strategies so effectively, why haven't more people climbed the ladder with a Sableye team? If what you say is true, they'd have almost no opposition and would reach the top of the OU ladder easily.

I bring up usage because it seems odd to cause such a kerfuffle over something so relatively rarely seen.

 

[EraiMHFU]

Why is team building such a concern when Sableye is barely ever seen compared to the top ten in OU? If you lose truly every game in which you encounter Sableye-M, that still means that you lose 6% of your games max due to Sableye. Also, if he truly were this powerful, wouldn't more people use him? If he really countered all of those common strategies so effectively, why haven't more people climbed the ladder with a Sableye team? If what you say is true, they'd have almost no opposition and would reach the top of the OU ladder easily.

Is because stall isnt even a common archetype, as Albacore stated some posts above, sableye is getting suspected because of its support power, not because is unkillable.

There are teams that reached far in the ladder with Sab, such as ABR stall, wich is possibly the most famous stall team.

 

[kumiko]

Ace Trainer Ganondorf

Centralization =/= Usage. A Pokemon that greatly dictates teambuilding in a negative manner and forces specific Pokemon or sets to be used that are unviable in most every scenario not involving the specific Pokemon (Mega Sableye) are going to be labeled as centralizing. Garchomp isn't centralizing in the least as it doesn't dictate the use of niche 'Mons to counter it. Usage is almost never something we think about when looking at potential suspects nor should it be an argument against or for banning a specific Pokemon. Even if a Pokemon is not blatantly overpowered (see: Landorus and Greninja), it can still heavily impact the metagame in a negative manner (see: Aegislash).

Landorus-Incarnate, for example, had 10% usage in 1825 range the month before it was banned. It had 5% usage in overall PS usage the same month. Landorus was very blatantly overpowered; 75.5% of voters voted to ban Landorus. Just because a Pokemon isn't used often on the ladder doesn't mean it is unhealthy for the metagame or overpowered. Not to mention the fact stall teams built around Mega Sableye completely dominated the ladder during OLT qualifying weeks and got #1 numerous times.

 

[Ace Trainer Ganondorf]

(I wonder how the meta would've evolved if gren/lando/lucario and others hadn't been banned, and the match ups between them and sableye played out. Makes you wonder.)

Is that such a bad thing though? I get that it can be frustrating to build teams against Sableye, but there seems to be an underlying assumption here that without Sableye or without certain Pokemon 'getting in the way,' building a perfect team is possible. If this is true, it's a pretty ridiculous assumption, given the diversity of 720+ Pokemon. There is no perfect team. It's simply not possible with the amount of variables. You sacrifice one move for another on Garchomp to deal with a certain threat, and you end up encountering something that you needed that first move for. It's how the game works.

Ace Trainer Ganondorf

Centralization =/= Usage. A Pokemon that greatly dictates teambuilding in a negative manner and forces specific Pokemon or sets to be used that are unviable in most every scenario not involving the specific Pokemon (Mega Sableye) are going to be labeled as centralizing. Garchomp isn't centralizing in the least as it doesn't dictate the use of niche 'Mons to counter it. Usage is almost never something we think about when looking at potential suspects nor should it be an argument against or for banning a specific Pokemon. Even if a Pokemon is not blatantly overpowered (see: Landorus and Greninja), it can still heavily impact the metagame in a negative manner (see: Aegislash).

Landorus-Incarnate, for example, had 10% usage in 1825 range the month before it was banned. It had 5% usage in overall PS usage the same month. Landorus was very blatantly overpowered; 75.5% of voters voted to ban Landorus. Just because a Pokemon isn't used often on the ladder doesn't mean it is unhealthy for the metagame or overpowered. Not to mention the fact stall teams built around Mega Sableye completely dominated the ladder during OLT qualifying weeks and got #1 numerous times.

Examples of these unviable in every other scenario counter sets, please? Not trying to be rude, I've just never heard of or seen any Sableye counter sets that are unviable anywhere else.

On the other hand, when we're talking viable-in-other-scenarios Sab counter sets, Clefable comes to mind, especially calm mind unaware Clef.


(...I'm not making a very good name for myself on here...*sigh*)

 

[EraiMHFU]

(I wonder how the meta would've evolved if gren/lando/lucario and others hadn't been banned, and the match ups between them and sableye played out. Makes you wonder.)

Is that such a bad thing though? I get that it can be frustrating to build teams against Sableye, but there seems to be an underlying assumption here that without Sableye or without certain Pokemon 'getting in the way,' building a perfect team is possible. If this is true, it's a pretty ridiculous assumption, given the diversity of 720+ Pokemon. There is no perfect team. It's simply not possible with the amount of variables. You sacrifice one move for another on Garchomp to deal with a certain threat, and you end up encountering something that you needed that first move for. It's how the game works.

Examples of these unviable in every other scenario counter sets, please? Not trying to be rude, I've just never heard of or seen any Sableye counter sets that are unviable anywhere else.

On the other hand, when we're talking viable-in-other-scenarios Sab counter sets, Clefable comes to mind, especially calm mind unaware Clef.


(...I'm not making a very good name for myself on here...*sigh*)

I saw around some nasty plot expert belt Mews with D-Gleam to lure sab, because the common defensive/support/stallbreaker mew sets are hard walled by M-Sableye, fine till there, but outside of luring Sableye your mew isnt doing anything else and wasting support potential just to lure an overcentralizing mon.

I think Its an okay explanation.

Dont feel bad about yourself, you can ask your doubts about the suspect here.

 

[Whalen]

Hello sorry my English not very good.

Lots of people say Mega Sableye and Gothitelle together are broken. But this is not true. Exampl saying, Vinc2612 made a team with Gothitelle but no Sableye and it pretty effective. It's trapping ability work best with Mega Sabkeye and in stall team but it is also good without.

I think we should ban Gothitelle and Shadow Tag. It is uncompetitive and also matchup based. Some games Gothitelle anything it can't do, other games it can trap several threats and make them cripple or remove it. having a stall breaker have to use Shed Shell is a problem and if no Gothitelle you can use other item. It is not very central but it make teambuilding harder. It limit the effectiveness of many Pokemon and forces it to adapt in not good ways. So ban
Gothitelle

Before Gothitelle being used very much Sableye is also on many stall. But there is ways to beat it. Also we see semi stall and balance team like Tele made balance. I also think if Mega Sableye exist, teambuilding will be limit and restricting the team. Mega Sableye cause lot of 50/50 with attack or use ur status or stealth rocks? Obviously it is very good Pokemon but lot of people saying you why not attack it? it is very hard to beat and make hazard difficult. If it is ban then the metagame is healthier and will be mores creative in ou.

I think big concern is we have three styles fast attacking, stall, and balance. If sableye remove stall is weaken. This put the balance (not the style) of teams messing up. Stall so weak, now that balance and attack is being used a lot. Sableye is putting in balance many things but what happen if it is ban? I think it is good sableye is ban because we can find problem. For example mega medicham all at once is much better. I think if to make metagame fun and better and also to allow better teambuilding we should ban Sableye even if we remove a playing style and maybe the balance of OU is broken.

 

[megacrazyhand]

(I wonder how the meta would've evolved if gren/lando/lucario and others hadn't been banned, and the match ups between them and sableye played out. Makes you wonder.)

Is that such a bad thing though? I get that it can be frustrating to build teams against Sableye, but there seems to be an underlying assumption here that without Sableye or without certain Pokemon 'getting in the way,' building a perfect team is possible. If this is true, it's a pretty ridiculous assumption, given the diversity of 720+ Pokemon. There is no perfect team. It's simply not possible with the amount of variables. You sacrifice one move for another on Garchomp to deal with a certain threat, and you end up encountering something that you needed that first move for. It's how the game works.

This part of your post I think I'm qualified enough to answer. First off usage of a Pokemon is not equivocal to centralization. For example, Clefable is possibly the best Fairy type in OU, being able to serve a multitude of roles and fit well on many teams. Despite this, it only has about 8.7% usage overall in OU (source: http://sweepercalc.com/stats/ou.html). That said, I'd argue that if you were building a team you'd want to be prepared to take down Clefable. Sure you may only see it in 8.7% of overall ladder matches, but if you don't have a strong enough hitter to take it down quickly you could get a Pokemon or several crippled to Thunder Wave. Now let's imagine your playing a lot of games on ladder and take your 6.5% usage figure. According to my source (same one as before, type in Sableye in their search bar) the most common partners for Sableye at 1670 are Ferrothorn, Hippowdon and Blissey (the stats are from October, could I also have someone check this as well because Blissey over Chansey seems suspect), which are very bulky Pokemon, very stally Pokemon and usually require a stall breaker to tear them down as well as appreciating hazards being up on the opponent's field and the player's field being clear of hazards. As a result you get a team that is very bulky and can avoid being worn down by hazards. With Gothitelle thrown in, the opponent's stall breaker can be destroyed or crippled making the match essentially unwinnable.

All of that said, there may be a few easily identifiable reasons for the lack of Mega Sableye use. One: Mega Sableye only fits well on one team archetype for which it provides unequivocal support. Two: People may not be willing to use it, either because they want to use another defensive mega (such as Mega Venusaur) or they view it as broken and don't wish to use something that is broken (a reasoning I have seen before).

And to answer your statement about how the meta would have evolved if certain mons hadn't been banned, Greninja and Landorus were both banned in ORAS so their matchups against Mega Sableye should be clear. Mega Lucario was just broken, 145 attack, 112 speed and adaptability made it the scariest offensive mon to face in a long while and it had no good answers. If it was still around, I still don't think it would have any good answers. If anything, bans allow the meta to further develop by allowing for a growth in the overall variety you see after a ban (after Aegi, we saw an increase in fighting and psychic types that made team building funner). That said, this isn't about previous bans but about Mega Sableye and Shadow Tag and I still want to see how the meta would develop with no Shadow Tag but with Mega Sableye (since Gothitelle seems to be the major breaking factor).

 

[Kav]

Teams arent going to be made absolutely perfect, true. However theres a balance to be maintained. When mon is overcentralizing, and teams are stretched too thin in their roles, more matchup wins occur. And its not that a player shouldnt be penalized for a shitty team, but its a problem when you can have two excellent teams made by excellent players and have one with a significant advantage over the other, just because theyre both trying to cover the entire metagame and one team just happens do check the other better. I'm overexaggerating how bad matchups wins are in oras but people tend to appreciate battling skill more than teambuilding skill, and games are generally more exciting if its emphasized.

Despite taking a few mons out of ou, it ends up improving the overall variety of the tier as well. A lot of teams are just 6 dudes thrown together that do the same thing as the last 6 dudes thrown together. If you go look at the teambuilding process for some DP teams youd think that people were trying to take over the world, but an ORAS rmt looks more like a grocery list.

 

[ElGomo]

In my humble opinion, none of these should go. Mega-Sableye is an extremely powerful pokemon, yes, but not one without easily exploitable flaws: a terrible HP stat doesn't allow it to be bulky on both sides, the lack of resistances makes it hard to stop all powerful attackers that can hit it with a STAB move, it's weakness to the best typing in the game doesn't do it any favors and it's terrible Speed stat makes it hard to find chances to recover if weakened and already Mega-Evolved. Gothitelle, on the other hand, is a Pokemon with weak stats, an amazing ability and the movepool to make great use of said ability(that I believe is in fact competitive due to the mindgames it creates). However, it is undeniable that when you put these two Pokemon together you have an opressive and even unfair amount of control over your opponent's playstyle that requires little to no skill on your part. That being said, in my opinion Shadow Tag+Sablenite should receive the "Drizzle+Swift Swim" treatment that was seen on Generation 5: both being allowed individually, just not on the same team.

 

[EraiMHFU]

In my humble opinion, none of these should go. Mega-Sableye is an extremely powerful pokemon, yes, but not one without easily exploitable flaws: a terrible HP stat doesn't allow it to be bulky on both sides, the lack of resistances makes it hard to stop all powerful attackers that can hit it with a STAB move, it's weakness to the best typing in the game doesn't do it any favors and it's terrible Speed stat makes it hard to find chances to recover if weakened and already Mega-Evolved. Gothitelle, on the other hand, is a Pokemon with weak stats, an amazing ability and the movepool to make great use of said ability(that I believe is in fact competitive due to the mindgames it creates). However, it is undeniable that when you put these two Pokemon together you have an opressive and even unfair amount of control over your opponent's playstyle that requires little to no skill on your part. That being said, in my opinion Shadow Tag+Sablenite should receive the "Drizzle+Swift Swim" treatment that was seen on Generation 5: both being allowed individually, just not on the same team.

I agree about Sablenite, but Gothithelle is not only found with stall builds, you can also find Goth on offensive builds, and again, the same skilless shit happens, gothithelle traps a wall and forces it to Struggle, leaving a clear way for killing machines like Zard X or Volcarona.

Overall the real trouble is Shadow Tag, as it ignores one of the main things in battling: Switching, is just another ridiculous skilless beast like Kanga or Luke that GameFreak loves to make.

Correct me if im wrong but complex bans are not encouraged either.

 

[Eik00c]

I have returned to the competitive scene a few months ago, so my intuition on some higher level competitive thinking is rusty. Please bear with me (I don't have much to say).

For starters, I agree for a ban on Gothitelle, but not a ban on Shadow Tag. As many users before me have stated before, Wobbuffet has a more difficult time trapping a large variety of threats. Most offensive threats it can potentially trap can still take a good chunk of its HP away, while it kinda just fails against stall (iirc). Furthermore, Gothitelle, as someone said earlier, causes several, perfectly-viable sets to become not viable due to Rest. Now here's a question for those who still disagree:

What perfectly viable sets does Wobbuffet cause to become inviable? I'm not going to repeat what defines something to be uncompetitive here, but tbh, I can't think of any set that is put down due to Wobbuffet's influence. I think I've made my stance clear.

As for M-Sableye, I could care less what could happen to it, and even if I were told right now to decide, I couldn't. I'm totally on the fence as to what'll happen to it, and I'll probably remain so for the rest of the suspect test. I'm interested in seeing what'll happen to the little guy.

 

[robofiend]

Here's the calcs I was too lazy to post yesterday:

252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Mega Sableye: 157-187 (51.8 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Mega Sableye: 121-142 (39.9 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(you win with decent damage rolls on both)

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 202-238 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Lum berry absorbs burn)

0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Mega Sableye: 85-102 (28 - 33.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

It's pretty easy for Heatran to lead against Sableye and get the burn on the turn it megas. If Sableye switches to a counter before Mega-ing it can't prevent hazards from going up the next time Heatran's in play- both are catch 22's for it. It can even rely on switching in on the Wisp and then Stealth Rocking when Sableye runs, should it be so bold.

Additionally, teams that have a Fairy can use a similar trick by leading against Sableye and then getting a stealth rock user into play before it can Mega.

While LO/Lum/Rocks is unexpected on Garchomp, it has some utility outside of dealing with Sableye. First, it can trick the opponent into thinking it's purely an attacker and then drop the rocks when the time is right. Common switch ins like Landorus-T, Rotom-W and other flying or levitating pokemon give Garchomp a chance to set up rocks or nuke them with Draco. Sableye is literally the only thing that stops rocks from this thing, and given that it can kill you, a player should think twice before sending it into play.

252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 238-281 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Rotom-W: 187-222 (61.7 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Oh also Mold Breaker Exacdrill exists and is pretty infuriating for Mega Sableye teams - it can spin away hazards, it quakes Sableye for acceptable damage, and its ability lets it bypass M-Sableye's Bounce and set up rocks anyway. If the Sableye user's plan is to prevent rocks from going up and then follow up with Talonflame, Volcarona, Kyurem, etc. they're going to have a bad time against this set.

I've used teams like the one I described above and have been shit on because of how troubling these three Rock users are for Sableye. It definitely blocks other hazard users, but like I said before, hazards can be hard for the rest of OU to manage, given that Starmie, Excadrill, Lati@s and Skarmory all have significant issues as foggers/spinners.

Sableye is by no means a trump card for Stealth rock, although it does effectively stop spikes from going up against Stall (not that spikes are that hard for Skarmory to deal with and how common Skarmory is on stall teams).

Overall, hard to see how Sableye's main strength - hazard control - is overly centralizing.

 

[Celticpride]

It's pretty easy for Heatran to lead against Sableye and get the burn on the turn it megas. If Sableye switches to a counter before Mega-ing it can't prevent hazards from going up the next time Heatran's in play- both are catch 22's for it. It can even rely on switching in on the Wisp and then Stealth Rocking when Sableye runs, should it be so bold.

Additionally, teams that have a Fairy can use a similar trick by leading against Sableye and then getting a stealth rock user into play before it can Mega.

Just a small reply to this specific part, namely the "I can force Sableye out before it Megas and gets Rocks up! No problem!" Well, Sableye can (and somewhat commonly does) run Fake Out exactly for situations such as that. It can still do a heck of a lot in three moveslots (Foul Play | Knock Off / Recover / Will o Wisp) so it's not like Sableye loses its usefulness by doing this either.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Oh my god. . . It's finally happening. . .
Maybe I'll get off my ass and get back into 'mons, for one more suspect test. I've expressed my feelings on this more than enough, and I'm sure a handful of you already know them. I'll go delving into the threads I voiced my opinion on the matter, and quote them here.

Pretty obvious, but I'll be saying BAN because Shadow Tag is fucking stupid.

Sablenite however, I'm not entirely so sure about. I understand the problem with it, I REALLY do. However, I'm not as inclined as others on the matter so I'll likely be abstaining if I do get around to getting reqs. Though, that could very well change during the process of the suspect, so we'll wait for my "after laddering" post to decide on what needs to be done there.

With that.

Fuck Shadow Tag.
I'm Out!

 

[Wizarus]

So some people arguing stuff like Gothorita and Gothita aren't broken. Hey, Gothitelle isn't broken either, it's uncompetitive. Now paired with something as team restricting that adds to the matchup problems of this gen (cough Mega Sableye), maybe it appears to be broken under certain circumstances.

I also don't understand those who are acting like Wobbuffet is some innocent bystander about to be a casualty of war. Okay, I think many of us agree that it's not on the same level as Gothitelle. However, it shares many of the same uncompetitive traits. First off it eliminates the option to switch out. When I say Gothitelle is uncompetitive, it is because I believe it limits your options to the point that it often doesn't matter what you do. And yeah, the first aspect of this is it's ability. The second part is Choice Scarf + Trick, which many people are using as an argument as to why it's Goth and not Wobbuffet. Being choice locked and unable to switch out makes you pretty helpless, right? Well hey, aren't we forgetting that Wobbuffet learns Encore? Sure, it won't lock you in long enough to PP stall you, but it creates a smaller scale version of the Trick scenario with Gothitelle. Okay, it's not removing any relevant wallbreaker that you want it to for stall teams, but it's sure a helluva lot better at removing offensive threats than Gothitelle is, and there isn't a whole lot you can do about it unless you want to provide the opponent with a setup opportunity (provided you aren't an all out attacker, in which case this isn't even an option). IMO, the reason this doesn't appear as alarming is because offense is so hard to deal with already that any extra help is often welcomed.

What does uncompetitive mean anyway? People are throwing it around like "overcentralizing", but it's so freaking vague. I could say Mud Slap is uncompetitive, but that doesn't really make it problematic. Hell, I consider Scald uncompetitive, but I'm pretty sure that's not getting banned any time soon.

The main difference between Gothitelle and Wobbuffet is one takes the initiative and the other sits back and waits for your opponent do to something. Gothitelle is guarenteed to do it's job (if you're playing correctly) and Wobbuffet is a 50/50 shot that auto loses to Taunt and gets wrecked by Toxic and Burn. Yeah it's almost guarenteed to revenge kill Choiced users at full health, but so can Dugtrio, and that's why people run pursuit users. It's pretty much Magnezone's job against steels. That's the risk you take for using Choiced users. I honestly thought this was agreed upon already, isn't that why Smogon allowed Dugtrio to trap pokemon since Gen 3 despite not having Team Preview until Gen 5?

I also just wanted to say a similar scenerio occured with Genetrio running rampant in OU. Dugtrio took out its counters, and Genesect had free reign to do whatever it wanted to quite frankly. Air Balloon and Shed Shell Heatran and Ninetales weren't uncommon. The problem was always Genesect and not Dugtrio IIRC. Isn't this a similar situation? If the problem is being able to revenge kill and wallbreak, then it's Gothitelle, as no other pokemon has the ability to Shadow Tag Trick, except its siblings, who are quite honestly terrible in OU, because they dont have the speed and power to trap nearly as effectively as her, or the bulk to take OU level hits. If the problem is Gothitelle taking out Mega Sableye's counters, than the problem is clearly Mega Sableye, if it's to the point where we have to ban something. Either way I don't see how other trappers have anything to do with the Mega Sableye/Gothitelle combo if they dont have the same capabilities as Gothitelle.

 

[D_what]

What does uncompetitive mean anyway? People are throwing it around like "overcentralizing", but it's so freaking vague. I could say Mud Slap is uncompetitive, but that doesn't really make it problematic. Hell, I consider Scald uncompetitive, but I'm pretty sure that's not getting banned any time soon..

Sorry for the one liner (and probably ninja'd) but this is both useful and important: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ous-tiering-policy-framework-read-and-understand-this.3552154/

 

[noobcubed]

My two cents:

Shadow Tag: personally I would have preferred just a Gothitelle suspect, since it is really the combination of Shadow Tag + TrickScarf which beats or at least cripples every stallbreaker in the tier besides Mega-Gardevoir and Gengar that makes the thing so lethal. Still, it is pretty obvious why this thing is obnoxious since there is very little a player can do when their dedicated stallbreaker can be isolated and destroyed by Gothitelle and the Gothitelle player then has fat walls to absorb everything else. Gothitelle stall wins so many matches at team preview that it requires little-to-no skill to use.

The thing is, I'm not too sure about Gothitelle outside of the infamous Goth + Mega Sab stall team, since I very rarely see it in any other context. TrickScarf shenanigans are just as effective on walls as they are on stallbreakers and so Goth can just as easily play its part on offence, tearing down walls to pave the way for opposing sweepers. The crucial difference is that a Gothitelle stall player can keep playing forever until he gets the match-up he wants, because his mons can take hits forever, whereas Gothitelle offence requires a little bit of skill since there is not always going to be a safe play to make. Still, Gothitelle's ability to make nearly unbeatable stall teams means it should go. No-one will miss it.

Overall, I would say Ban Gothitelle, but since that isn't an option, Ban Shadow Tag.

Mega-Sableye: I get it, Sableye is pretty restricting. I've actually not had much success with Mega-Sableye myself, but that's because I keep running into stuff like Swords Dance + Stealth Rock Garchomp that is specifically designed to beat it. The very fact that I keep seeing these otherwise suboptimal sets is proof of its influence.

However, what I do not accept is the argument that it prevents offence punishing stall and balance by making smart double switches to rack up hazard damage. Yes it stops offence from making those plays; but the abilities Magic Guard and Regenerator have the same effect and nobody has called for them to go. Moreover, before Mega Sableye, offence barely had to prepare for stall, it was just "chuck loads of hazards, make the obvious double switches" (because stall teams pretty much always make the most obvious play, it makes such a strategy rather easy most of the time). Overall, it really emphasizes how reliant players are on entry hazards to break defensive cores, that a Pokemon that removes that resource (which admittedly it does very well) but doesn't do much else is considered ban-worthy.

I would say wait until Shadow Tag is banned, and then retest. Pushed one way or the other, I would say ban, but I'm not totally convinced like I am on Shadow Tag. And maybe early in Gen VII do a Stealth Rock suspect, since as I see it Mega-Sableye's centralising nature is a direct extension of the unhealthy dominance of entry hazard control within the metagame.

 

[cyberpunkbanana]

To anyone saying that Sableye-mega invalidates all relevant spikers, I would like to remind everyone that spikes diggersby is very viable in the Overused metagame. When the stall player switches in their skarmory to tank the life orb fire punch, you can just hit him up with those crispy layers instead.

In all seriousness though, Sableye needs to go because it makes balance vs stall games way too matchup-reliant.

 

[Sir Azelf]

Yeah about sableye "fucking teambuilding". Who cares if it stops mindless centralizing shit like spikes stacking offense that resemble cancer deosharp? Who cares if it stops bullshit like Taunt+ Wisp or Toxic + recovery sets as a lazy blanket check against stall/semistall? I think the risk/reward of running those strats makes sableye balanced especially because those strategies are frankly ridiculous. If your team cant take wisps/status you deserve to lose, sorry, it reminds me of when people say "Mega Slowbro is broken" yet they have nothing with status on their team and nothing to take Scalds or status or anything to beat bulky stat uppers, its like what do you expect? Why should we encourage lazy teambuilding because you cannot be bothered to make a cohesive team that features fire/fairies/manaphy etc which are all stupidly common and useful outside of sableye and god knows what else that beats and sets up on Sableye, whilst being a team that can actually break stall by using lures, breakers etc? You know, by thinking and using skill like we had to do in the past before rocks even existed? If you have to solely rely on getting rocks up for your team to function, there is your problem, with teambuilding and your strat and not msable. I think the fact that you have to actually WORK to get hazards up against msable stall is a very positive thing for the metagame, stop being self entitled and adapt to it and use rockers that can actually beat sable and there are plenty of them and again they are useful outside of just rocking on sable. Stall has had to adapt to things like MMedicham, MHera, MGardy etc and it has done in ridiculous ways so i really dont think that is too much to ask anyone. If hazards are that important in getting up for your offense, use Spikers that actually threaten it because the Spikers that dont beat Sableye dont beat stuff like Xatu either lol js. As others have said previously, the only reason people are struggling with this archetype is because of goth. Take goth out of the equation and see how this archetype handles breakers and overloading counters then.