If you run fat shit deal with Hoopa, thats my opinion. If you don't want to be weak to Hoopa use speedy offense with hard hitters, minimize its room to get in, not that hard imo.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - Purple Haze - Hoopa-U is now banned
- Thread starter kumiko
- Start date
- Status
Some people will just use what they are good with. If it's Stall they might have problems, balance not as much, offensive typically handles it well but I won't be the kind of person to say what they should or shouldn't play. It's not right to be like "oh don't play Bulky play Offensive." I get there needs to be a way to deal with it but I wouldn't say revenge killing is the best way to do so. No body is forcing you to play a playstyle you dont want to play so don't try to force a playstyle onto someone they don't want to play.
Edit: you could say "deal with" any of the Pokemon that's ever been banned here. So using the deal with argument just doesn't justify any arguments.
How the hell is that healthy for the metagame? So basically instead of banning this one Pokemon, you would rather have us all play with fast hard hitters because if we don't, we are at unfair disadvantage against opponents who use Hoopa-U. Is that really the OU metagame most people want? Where either you build fast teams that keep Hoopa-U from coming in easily, or you run Pursuit and hope for the best? Thats sounds like a shit metagame to me.
I've been lurking for a while. but a lot of people are making arguments that are annoying me, so I decided to make an account so that I could speak up.
A lot of people on the anti-ban have been discussing how Hoopa is broken since it forces stall to run a certain strategy (pursuit), but doesn't the same apply to a ton of mons? Zardx forces stall to use quag or cm slowbro or else it straight up loses, garde forces you to run chansey+skarm or something like that since taunt garde beats both individually and requires multiple checks on stall to be worn down, tg rd manaphy requires stall to run unaware clef or ferrothorn to beat it, etc. Why is Hoopa above these mons in terms of forcing stall to run certain strats just to beat it. On top of that, shit like pursuit weavile also keeps threats like tornt, sd LO chomp, etc. all in check so that they don't beat you. If someone could point out the reason why this argument isn't flawed, then I would be happy to hear it.
A lot of people on the anti-ban have been discussing how Hoopa is broken since it forces stall to run a certain strategy (pursuit), but doesn't the same apply to a ton of mons? Zardx forces stall to use quag or cm slowbro or else it straight up loses, garde forces you to run chansey+skarm or something like that since taunt garde beats both individually and requires multiple checks on stall to be worn down, tg rd manaphy requires stall to run unaware clef or ferrothorn to beat it, etc. Why is Hoopa above these mons in terms of forcing stall to run certain strats just to beat it. On top of that, shit like pursuit weavile also keeps threats like tornt, sd LO chomp, etc. all in check so that they don't beat you. If someone could point out the reason why this argument isn't flawed, then I would be happy to hear it.
There are two problems with that argument:
1) Hoopa-U forces stall to use offensive measures to stop it, as defensive ones flat-out don't work. Without great prediction skills, nothing can come in and force Hoopa-U out by tanking hits. Sure, stall teams without some kind of offensive check are not very common nowadays, but IIRC it's the first time there is an "Use an offensive check for it or lose" Pokemon.
2) Pursuit is unreliable. Hoopa-U is not weak to Dark, so unless it's Choice Band set and used Hyperspace Fury (Or is weakened enough), it's not truly trapped by Pursuit (It's not Gen V Latios...). Or worse, it may not even be Choiced to begin with, then chooses to stay and use a Fighting-type move.
Maybe it is not the best place to ask, but what will happen to hoopa-c after hoopa-u ban?
Like hoopa-c with specs has almost same amount (I don't think that there is even single difference in number oh hits to ko) of power and even better stab, because it is resisted by less mons.
It has most of its weakness but don't has this nasty u-turn weakness. You are still ohko by foul play, still damn weak tu pursuit, still have to play mind games etc.
Like hoopa-c with specs has almost same amount (I don't think that there is even single difference in number oh hits to ko) of power and even better stab, because it is resisted by less mons.
It has most of its weakness but don't has this nasty u-turn weakness. You are still ohko by foul play, still damn weak tu pursuit, still have to play mind games etc.
It's x4 weak to Ghost and Dark, less speed, less raw stat, and it's not allowed to use Hyperspace Fury which is a big part that contributes to Hoopa-Us suspect worthy elements in that it can abuse both Band and Specs reliably. It's not relevant to the suspect at hand though and its position in RU establishes the point of its viability as well.
Also has a worse speed tier (And needs to go Modest if it wants to have Hoopa-U's special attacking power, which means it can be outran by non-Scarfed Tyranitar) and there aren't really any mind games - Pursuit OHKOes it even if it stays in, and physical or mixed sets are nowhere near as good as Hoopa-U's.
Really powerful special wallbreaker or maybe Trick Room sweeper (The one thing it can do better than Hoopa-U), but not impossible to deal with IMO.
EDIT: Got Ninja'd lol
just gonna hop in here
1) offensive measures have to be taken for np thundy to not body stall any prolly a couple other mons (i cant think of any defensive answers)
2) Pursuit weakens hoopa to the point that it can't switch into rocks again more than once or twice, meaning it has to come in after a sac and is pretty useless. If it isn't choiced, then you can see its life orb or if it's ebelt, it's too weak to beat stall teams.
So having gotten reqs, I'll post a few thoughts on Hoopa...
Obviously, the debate about Hoopa boils down to whether or not you think it forces the metagame into an unhealthy state. A healthy state should be one where most playstyles are relatively equally viable. So first, let's put to bed the idea that we need to keep Hoopa-U to ensure stall doesn't become OP. I agree with a lot of the other sentiments in this thread that Hoopa-U isn't needed to keep stall in check. Hoopa is far more of a wallbreaker than a stallbreaker (although it can cause some problems for stall) and things like Manaphy and Mega heracross are plenty threatening. If you want to make matchups against stall easier then the better thing would be to ban m-sab, rather than keeping Hoopa. That being said, I think that stall is exactly that: a more matchup based playstyle that will always be popular on the ladder just b/c it's easy to play with and eases prediction against unpredictable ladder players. So trying to keep stall in check shouldn't be a huge concern when arguing on Hoopa-U.
The biggest problem I find with Hoopa-U in the metagame is that it necessitates a couple of things that are somewhat unhealthy. The first is the notion that basically every balance/semi-stall/stall team needs some form of trapping. If you're going to say Dugtrio, then that's an example of Hoopa being too centralizing, since Dugtrio is pretty bad. Of course the more sane option is either Weavile/Ttar, which itself is also centralizing since basically every team is running one of these two mons to check Hoopa. Is this necessary without Hoopa? This is what I think is the most important factor in keeping/getting rid of Hoopa, since if pursuit trapping is something that's really only being used for Hoopa, then it's definitely centralizing. Looking at some other uses for pursuit, it's obviously useful for the Latis (and CM Lati), and LO Torn (only if you have Weavile), but a lot of things like Mana and Hera don't care about pursuit. So basically pursuit's #1 goal is Hoopa on a lot of these teams, and while they certainly help vs. other things (pursuit is just good in this meta), it's not absolutely necessary. That means, imo, that Hoopa is too centralizing.
Now let's also consider the fact that pursuit isn't even guaranteed to get rid of the Hoopa user.
252 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 102-121 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
So scarftar, probably the most popular pursuit user, isn't even guaranteed to get rid of Hoopa.
Finally, there's the risk-reward thing that's been touched on upon a lot. First, the player facing Hoopa is pretty much not going to hard switch into their pursuit trapper (assuming that's their primary answer) because if they do and lose a prediction 50/50, they 100% lose the game. Meanwhile, the Hoopa user can usually freely click a way too powerful Dark Stab and then go for a 50/50, meaning they usually have a leg up on the predictions. This is of course, based on the fact Hoopa's coming in on something it's able to threaten out, which given it's solid special bulk and speed fast enough for a wallbreaker, it's able to do. Hoopa basically allows players using it to mindlessly click dark stabs in a lot of situations, and for players facing hoopa, makes responding really tough because you basically are forced into running a select few mons if you're not running offense.
That being said, I do understand how frail hoopa is in a physically based metagame and that it is super easy to wear down using hazards, status, residual damage, etc. Imo though, those weaknesses aren't enough to balance out the easy risk-reward advantage/centralization that Hoopa causes for 3-4 playstyles. Leaning towards ban for these reasons atm.
Obviously, the debate about Hoopa boils down to whether or not you think it forces the metagame into an unhealthy state. A healthy state should be one where most playstyles are relatively equally viable. So first, let's put to bed the idea that we need to keep Hoopa-U to ensure stall doesn't become OP. I agree with a lot of the other sentiments in this thread that Hoopa-U isn't needed to keep stall in check. Hoopa is far more of a wallbreaker than a stallbreaker (although it can cause some problems for stall) and things like Manaphy and Mega heracross are plenty threatening. If you want to make matchups against stall easier then the better thing would be to ban m-sab, rather than keeping Hoopa. That being said, I think that stall is exactly that: a more matchup based playstyle that will always be popular on the ladder just b/c it's easy to play with and eases prediction against unpredictable ladder players. So trying to keep stall in check shouldn't be a huge concern when arguing on Hoopa-U.
The biggest problem I find with Hoopa-U in the metagame is that it necessitates a couple of things that are somewhat unhealthy. The first is the notion that basically every balance/semi-stall/stall team needs some form of trapping. If you're going to say Dugtrio, then that's an example of Hoopa being too centralizing, since Dugtrio is pretty bad. Of course the more sane option is either Weavile/Ttar, which itself is also centralizing since basically every team is running one of these two mons to check Hoopa. Is this necessary without Hoopa? This is what I think is the most important factor in keeping/getting rid of Hoopa, since if pursuit trapping is something that's really only being used for Hoopa, then it's definitely centralizing. Looking at some other uses for pursuit, it's obviously useful for the Latis (and CM Lati), and LO Torn (only if you have Weavile), but a lot of things like Mana and Hera don't care about pursuit. So basically pursuit's #1 goal is Hoopa on a lot of these teams, and while they certainly help vs. other things (pursuit is just good in this meta), it's not absolutely necessary. That means, imo, that Hoopa is too centralizing.
Now let's also consider the fact that pursuit isn't even guaranteed to get rid of the Hoopa user.
252 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 102-121 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
So scarftar, probably the most popular pursuit user, isn't even guaranteed to get rid of Hoopa.
Finally, there's the risk-reward thing that's been touched on upon a lot. First, the player facing Hoopa is pretty much not going to hard switch into their pursuit trapper (assuming that's their primary answer) because if they do and lose a prediction 50/50, they 100% lose the game. Meanwhile, the Hoopa user can usually freely click a way too powerful Dark Stab and then go for a 50/50, meaning they usually have a leg up on the predictions. This is of course, based on the fact Hoopa's coming in on something it's able to threaten out, which given it's solid special bulk and speed fast enough for a wallbreaker, it's able to do. Hoopa basically allows players using it to mindlessly click dark stabs in a lot of situations, and for players facing hoopa, makes responding really tough because you basically are forced into running a select few mons if you're not running offense.
That being said, I do understand how frail hoopa is in a physically based metagame and that it is super easy to wear down using hazards, status, residual damage, etc. Imo though, those weaknesses aren't enough to balance out the easy risk-reward advantage/centralization that Hoopa causes for 3-4 playstyles. Leaning towards ban for these reasons atm.
Well after reading many posts, various arguments favoring a
Well after reading many post, various arguments favoring and against hoopa, after doing research on stall teams so that I have a better idea of what to say, and analyzing Hoopa-U's stats, movepool and ways to stop it, I would finally share my thoughts
The time I saw Hoopa-C I, and probably anyone, thought that it was a rather unimpressive pokemon; it may have huge ( not as hoopa-u) ofensive stats, as well as a wide movepool, however, its typing gives it a nasty 4x weakness no the extremely common knock off, as well as ghost type attacks; that horrible defense and mediocre speed just made it a frail, slow target for physical attackers; then hoopa-u came with higher offensive stats ( especially its attack), a better typing, and well, somewhat better speed. I have seen many posts saying that basically no pokemon can switch without receiving massive damage or fainting, and how this thing simply wreaks havoc against stall, being those, based on what I have seen, the main reasons for why it shall be banned, adding that it supposedly harms the health of the metagame; however, I believe hoopa-u is defenetly not broken; with its mediocre speed stat, basically any physical attacker faster than it or with powerful priority can take it out; also, this thing has no resistances, and just an immunity to a rather uncommon offensive type, which means that it is rather difficult yo get hoopa on the battle field without making it take a lot of damage, unless you make a correct double switch or use volt switch/ u-turn correctly, and just like regular hoopa, it has that defense that makes you cry when you see it, a defense stats that makes it very hard for hoopa not to receive a lot, or well getting knocked out, in a metagame full of powerful physical attacks; now about the stall teams, I simply notice hoopa-u cannot switch safely either ( unless you use one of the methods I mentioned before); that would be because hoopa won't enjoy it's health going down because of poison/burns, and multiple entry hazards, and let's not forget that paralysis cripples hoopa a lot; also, pursuit is not the only way to stop it; thunder waves, knock offs, burns, all of those cripple hoopa badly, and, in case is has a choice item, if it is locked in the wrong move one could use that to take out hoopa, cripple something else with status, and well some creativity can come in, like sending hippowdon on a hoopa locked in hyperspace fury, probably force it out, and later on attempt to sweep the opponent's team with excadrill ( yes I have seen various stall teams with at least one offensive pokemon) I simply believe hoopa doesn't make that play style unviable, or that it forces those playing it to use a certain pokemon/ move, there are plenty other mons capable of destroying those teams, like rain dance+rest manaphy, mega sableye, and somewhat clefable ( somewhat because what stall team doesn't have a steel type mon?). And yes, let's not forget hoopa-u has a rather useless ability, which will only work if it loses its item perhaps with a knock off, but right, it barely can take that.
With all that said, I won't deny hoopa-u is one huge threat that any team should be prepared for, but it is still shall not be banned, as it's drawbacks are simply too crippling for it to be broken; said flaws take out staying power from hoopa, enables many pokemon to revenge kill it/ deal a lot of damage to it, and just makes it hard for hoopa to be around for too long if played recklessly. Also would like to finish adding my own experience using it; yes, many opponents had to sacrifice a pokemon, many just struggled to switch into any attack that hoopa threw at them, but just right after a pokemon falled, another one could come in, and easily force hoopa out or well just kill it; even with stall, I would see many sending klefki or mandibuzz, or whatever could survive a hit, a threat hoopa with thunder wave, burns, foul plays, etc..
With all that said, I hope to convince many of you that hoopa should not be banned, as there are many ways to deal with it.
nd against hoopa, after doing research on stall teams so that I have a better idea of what to say, and analyzing Hoopa-U's stats, movepool and ways to stop it, I would finally share my thoughts
The time I saw Hoopa-C I, and probably anyone, thought that it was a rather unimpressive pokemon; it may have huge ( not as hoopa-u) ofensive stats, as well as a wide movepool, however, its typing gives it a nasty 4x weakness no the extremely common knock off, as well as ghost type attacks; that horrible defense and mediocre speed just made it a frail, slow target for physical attackers; then hoopa-u came with higher offensive stats ( especially its attack), a better typing, and well, somewhat better speed. I have seen many posts saying that basically no pokemon can switch without receiving massive damage or fainting, and how this thing simply wreaks havoc against stall, being those, based on what I have seen, the main reasons for why it shall be banned, adding that it supposedly harms the health of the metagame; however, I believe hoopa-u is defenetly not broken; with its mediocre speed stat, basically any physical attacker faster than it or with powerful priority can take it out; also, this thing has no resistances, and just an immunity to a rather uncommon offensive type, which means that it is rather difficult yo get hoopa on the battle field without making it take a lot of damage, unless you make a correct double switch or use volt switch/ u-turn correctly, and just like regular hoopa, it has that defense that makes you cry when you see it, a defense stats that makes it very hard for hoopa not to receive a lot, or well getting knocked out, in a metagame full of powerful physical attacks; now about the stall teams, I simply notice hoopa-u cannot switch safely either ( unless you use one of the methods I mentioned before); that would be because hoopa won't enjoy it's health going down because of poison/burns, and multiple entry hazards, and let's not forget that paralysis cripples hoopa a lot; also, pursuit is not the only way to stop it; thunder waves, knock offs, burns, all of those cripple hoopa badly, and, in case is has a choice item, if it is locked in the wrong move one could use that to take out hoopa, cripple something else with status, and well some creativity can come in, like sending hippowdon on a hoopa locked in hyperspace fury, probably force it out, and later on attempt to sweep the opponent's team with excadrill ( yes I have seen various stall teams with at least one offensive pokemon) I simply believe hoopa doesn't make that play style unviable, or that it forces those playing it to use a certain pokemon/ move, there are plenty other mons capable of destroying those teams, like rain dance+rest manaphy, mega sableye, and somewhat clefable ( somewhat because what stall team doesn't have a steel type mon?). And yes, let's not forget hoopa-u has a rather useless ability, which will only work if it loses its item perhaps with a knock off, but right, it barely can take that.
With all that said, I won't deny hoopa-u is one huge threat that any team should be prepared for, but it is still shall not be banned, as it's drawbacks are simply too crippling for it to be broken; said flaws take out staying power from hoopa, enables many pokemon to revenge kill it/ deal a lot of damage to it, and just makes it hard for hoopa to be around for too long if played recklessly. Also would like to finish adding my own experience using it; yes, many opponents had to sacrifice a pokemon, many just struggled to switch into any attack that hoopa threw at them, but just right after a pokemon falled, another one could come in, and easily force hoopa out or well just kill it; even with stall, I would see many sending klefki or mandibuzz, or whatever could survive a hit, a threat hoopa with thunder wave, burns, foul plays, etc..
With all that said, I hope to convince many of you that hoopa should not be banned, as there are many ways to deal with it.
Well after reading many post, various arguments favoring and against hoopa, after doing research on stall teams so that I have a better idea of what to say, and analyzing Hoopa-U's stats, movepool and ways to stop it, I would finally share my thoughts
The time I saw Hoopa-C I, and probably anyone, thought that it was a rather unimpressive pokemon; it may have huge ( not as hoopa-u) ofensive stats, as well as a wide movepool, however, its typing gives it a nasty 4x weakness no the extremely common knock off, as well as ghost type attacks; that horrible defense and mediocre speed just made it a frail, slow target for physical attackers; then hoopa-u came with higher offensive stats ( especially its attack), a better typing, and well, somewhat better speed. I have seen many posts saying that basically no pokemon can switch without receiving massive damage or fainting, and how this thing simply wreaks havoc against stall, being those, based on what I have seen, the main reasons for why it shall be banned, adding that it supposedly harms the health of the metagame; however, I believe hoopa-u is defenetly not broken; with its mediocre speed stat, basically any physical attacker faster than it or with powerful priority can take it out; also, this thing has no resistances, and just an immunity to a rather uncommon offensive type, which means that it is rather difficult yo get hoopa on the battle field without making it take a lot of damage, unless you make a correct double switch or use volt switch/ u-turn correctly, and just like regular hoopa, it has that defense that makes you cry when you see it, a defense stats that makes it very hard for hoopa not to receive a lot, or well getting knocked out, in a metagame full of powerful physical attacks; now about the stall teams, I simply notice hoopa-u cannot switch safely either ( unless you use one of the methods I mentioned before); that would be because hoopa won't enjoy it's health going down because of poison/burns, and multiple entry hazards, and let's not forget that paralysis cripples hoopa a lot; also, pursuit is not the only way to stop it; thunder waves, knock offs, burns, all of those cripple hoopa badly, and, in case is has a choice item, if it is locked in the wrong move one could use that to take out hoopa, cripple something else with status, and well some creativity can come in, like sending hippowdon on a hoopa locked in hyperspace fury, probably force it out, and later on attempt to sweep the opponent's team with excadrill ( yes I have seen various stall teams with at least one offensive pokemon) I simply believe hoopa doesn't make that play style unviable, or that it forces those playing it to use a certain pokemon/ move, there are plenty other mons capable of destroying those teams, like rain dance+rest manaphy, mega sableye, and somewhat clefable ( somewhat because what stall team doesn't have a steel type mon?). And yes, let's not forget hoopa-u has a rather useless ability, which will only work if it loses its item perhaps with a knock off, but right, it barely can take that.
With all that said, I won't deny hoopa-u is one huge threat that any team should be prepared for, but it is still shall not be banned, as it's drawbacks are simply too crippling for it to be broken; said flaws take out staying power from hoopa, enables many pokemon to revenge kill it/ deal a lot of damage to it, and just makes it hard for hoopa to be around for too long if played recklessly. Also would like to finish adding my own experience using it; yes, many opponents had to sacrifice a pokemon, many just struggled to switch into any attack that hoopa threw at them, but just right after a pokemon falled, another one could come in, and easily force hoopa out or well just kill it; even with stall, I would see many sending klefki or mandibuzz, or whatever could survive a hit, a threat hoopa with thunder wave, burns, foul plays, etc..
With all that said, I hope to convince many of you that hoopa should not be banned, as there are many ways to deal with it.
nd against hoopa, after doing research on stall teams so that I have a better idea of what to say, and analyzing Hoopa-U's stats, movepool and ways to stop it, I would finally share my thoughts
The time I saw Hoopa-C I, and probably anyone, thought that it was a rather unimpressive pokemon; it may have huge ( not as hoopa-u) ofensive stats, as well as a wide movepool, however, its typing gives it a nasty 4x weakness no the extremely common knock off, as well as ghost type attacks; that horrible defense and mediocre speed just made it a frail, slow target for physical attackers; then hoopa-u came with higher offensive stats ( especially its attack), a better typing, and well, somewhat better speed. I have seen many posts saying that basically no pokemon can switch without receiving massive damage or fainting, and how this thing simply wreaks havoc against stall, being those, based on what I have seen, the main reasons for why it shall be banned, adding that it supposedly harms the health of the metagame; however, I believe hoopa-u is defenetly not broken; with its mediocre speed stat, basically any physical attacker faster than it or with powerful priority can take it out; also, this thing has no resistances, and just an immunity to a rather uncommon offensive type, which means that it is rather difficult yo get hoopa on the battle field without making it take a lot of damage, unless you make a correct double switch or use volt switch/ u-turn correctly, and just like regular hoopa, it has that defense that makes you cry when you see it, a defense stats that makes it very hard for hoopa not to receive a lot, or well getting knocked out, in a metagame full of powerful physical attacks; now about the stall teams, I simply notice hoopa-u cannot switch safely either ( unless you use one of the methods I mentioned before); that would be because hoopa won't enjoy it's health going down because of poison/burns, and multiple entry hazards, and let's not forget that paralysis cripples hoopa a lot; also, pursuit is not the only way to stop it; thunder waves, knock offs, burns, all of those cripple hoopa badly, and, in case is has a choice item, if it is locked in the wrong move one could use that to take out hoopa, cripple something else with status, and well some creativity can come in, like sending hippowdon on a hoopa locked in hyperspace fury, probably force it out, and later on attempt to sweep the opponent's team with excadrill ( yes I have seen various stall teams with at least one offensive pokemon) I simply believe hoopa doesn't make that play style unviable, or that it forces those playing it to use a certain pokemon/ move, there are plenty other mons capable of destroying those teams, like rain dance+rest manaphy, mega sableye, and somewhat clefable ( somewhat because what stall team doesn't have a steel type mon?). And yes, let's not forget hoopa-u has a rather useless ability, which will only work if it loses its item perhaps with a knock off, but right, it barely can take that.
With all that said, I won't deny hoopa-u is one huge threat that any team should be prepared for, but it is still shall not be banned, as it's drawbacks are simply too crippling for it to be broken; said flaws take out staying power from hoopa, enables many pokemon to revenge kill it/ deal a lot of damage to it, and just makes it hard for hoopa to be around for too long if played recklessly. Also would like to finish adding my own experience using it; yes, many opponents had to sacrifice a pokemon, many just struggled to switch into any attack that hoopa threw at them, but just right after a pokemon falled, another one could come in, and easily force hoopa out or well just kill it; even with stall, I would see many sending klefki or mandibuzz, or whatever could survive a hit, a threat hoopa with thunder wave, burns, foul plays, etc..
With all that said, I hope to convince many of you that hoopa should not be banned, as there are many ways to deal with it.
Just specifically to your question 'why is hoopa above these mons,' I think this is a SQSA situation. It's above these mons cause it's base stats are far higher. ZardX is not tht threatening before a boost. Most non-mega offensive mons need a boost to threaten stall (or bulky/balance). This is the way stall is built and played, to be able to tank hits from base 120-130 attack stats. Not to tank hits from unboosted base 160-170 stats. That stat difference is significant, and is the reason why comparisons to hydreigon or charizard megas simply don't make sense. ZardY's SpAtk comes close, but a 4x SR weakness, among other things, make it far more manageable. Stall does not straight up lost to ZardX w/out quag or slowbro or clef.
It just doesn't.
In addition, unlike Megas, Hoopa can run items which vastly change how the set functions. The checks and counters to Zard X and Zard Y and Mega Gard and so on generally stay the same, but the checks to Hoopa-U are completely different depending on the set, since Hoopa-U can easily run Scarf, Specs, Band, Life Orb, Expert Belt, etc.
SO are you trying to say that due to how she has multiple sets/item plus the fact that it destroys most played metagame STALL, that makes hoopa OP ??
Becasue i state no ban, if you consider what i said above correct then just banit but imo other OU pokes fit also into the same category due to amazing abilities, priority, stats.etc.
Why are some people "de-valuing" pursuit as if it's only niche is combating hoopa-u. Just to clarify, I'm talking about the people who say that forcing to run pursuit to deal with hoopa-u makes hoopa-u broken. Pursuit has it's niche outside of a hoopa-u-less meta and is a great move and will still probably be used if hoopa-u is banned.
HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
I think the issue lies in people going out of their way to run a pursuit trapper on builds you would otherwise not consider one on. Hoopa is also the only mon you NEED pursuit to take care of reliably (or semi reliably because expert belt exists).
Typically pursuit trappers are used on hazard stacking builds to deal with latis. This is different from hoopa however, as pursuit trapping latis is a convenience to keep hazards up, not a mandatory measure to make sure the latis don't steamroll your team.
HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Pursuit is the best measure to keep hoopa from running away when you try to rkill it and then coming back in and nabbing another kill.
Hoopa is not necessary for keeping stall in check. Stall isn't even particularly good right now, as it's an exceedingly matchup based play style and this meta is literally full of stallbreakers. Amazingly enough if you actually bother preparing for stall it's not that difficult to beat. Before anyone tries to bring up "then why doesn't stall prepare for hoopa", you cannot beyond running a pursuit trapper. It's impossible to make hoopa proof stall.
All that said this isn't even about stall. This is about the extreme negative impact hoopa has on the meta by forcing constant guessing games, making any mon slower than hoopa a liability, tearing through defensive cores like paper, and driving the meta twords an extremely offensive state.
Alright. Let's pretend I chose not to run Pursuit. My fast physical attacker is all set to revenge kill Hoopa-U.
Aaaaaand it switched out to a physical wall with no worry. If only I had ran Pursuit, then Hoopa-U wouldn't be such a problem. Wait, I'm forced to run Pursuit to EFFICIENTLY deal with Hoopa-U? Oh come on!
Also, if you want to compare previously banned mons(which you shouldn't even try since the comparisons tend to be flawed heavily), we banned a certain slower than even Hoopa-U mon in Aegislash that nonetheless "wrecked havoc when they were in OU".
It's not about the ability to be revenged killed , because most offensive Pokemon can be revenged killed if provided against the right Pokemon . The difference is that hoopa comes in on a Pokemon it can kill, and you are forced to sac a Pokemon . Now you can bring in a Pokemon to revenge the hoopa, but the hoopa player can just switch out .
The discussion isn't that hoopa can beat every Pokemon 1v1 , which it can't as you say if they are a faster physical mom . However in the right circumstances, hoopa can bring immediate pressure to ones team when it comes onto the field. Now one can argue that you can just not give it a free switch in, but that easier said in theory then done in practice, since hoopa can come in on some notable Pokemon and still take hits (for example a weak offensive hit like from a slowbro's scald)
Reading this thread I learned that Pursuit is a move specifically designed to beat Hoopa which has no other use other than that.
Not like it traps Starmie which otherwise spins on the majority of teams in oras, traps Latwins which are always a nuisance and the most common defoggers, can sometimes trap annoying mega gardes and medichams with some prediction, and i'm sure there's more I don't recall atm
If your argument is 'hoopa makes the matchup issues worse in oras' then I surely agree but the same is true for a lot of other threats, why ban hoopa instead of those? Arbitrarily banning certain pokemons from the pool just to alleviate the matchups issues is not the way to go
Not like it traps Starmie which otherwise spins on the majority of teams in oras, traps Latwins which are always a nuisance and the most common defoggers, can sometimes trap annoying mega gardes and medichams with some prediction, and i'm sure there's more I don't recall atm
If your argument is 'hoopa makes the matchup issues worse in oras' then I surely agree but the same is true for a lot of other threats, why ban hoopa instead of those? Arbitrarily banning certain pokemons from the pool just to alleviate the matchups issues is not the way to go
I get you're being sarcastic here, but have you read the arguments?
The argument does not circle around how common Pursuit is (because Pursuit is a good move with or without Hoopa-U), but the fact that the only way to pressure a Hoopa-U back as reliably as possible is with Pursuit. Even when I say 'most reliably', it still isn't much, considering it assumes the Hoopa-U is choiced, and every viable Pursuit user in the tier threatens a 2HKO at the very least with any of its most common moves (the most used of which is Focus Blast in these scenarios).
Even Weavile, who threatens an OHKO with either a properly predicted Pursuit or Knock Off, isn't completely immune to this, since even with its stellar speed, it's reduced to a 50/50. I can understand that Hoopa-U has no counters. That's not an issue, and it's a dead horse I'm not going to beat. The problem is when its most reliable revenge-kill method is a coin toss, I start to worry about exactly how overpowering Hoopa-U can be in a match.
There is nothing arbitrary about this suspect. Read the arguments (for both sides) before you post.
Ok so I think we're good now with the suspect test discussion thread finally.
Thanks to all the participants in both the suspect test itself and discussion.
Also let's all give a special thanks to amg for liking every single one of the posts in this thread! If you didn't feel important, don't worry, amg would always be there by your side.
Voting thread should be up ~later~
Thanks to all the participants in both the suspect test itself and discussion.
Also let's all give a special thanks to amg for liking every single one of the posts in this thread! If you didn't feel important, don't worry, amg would always be there by your side.
Voting thread should be up ~later~
- Status