Announcement np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles [Greninja is Uber]

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Hey there guys, the OU Council has decided to suspect test Greninja this round. Greninja got a few interesting toys in ORAS, namely Gunk Shot and Low Kick, which allow it to get past some of its best checks in XY, like Azumarill and Chansey. Its formidable Speed along with the boost from Protean and Life Orb make Greninja incredibly hard to play around for both offensive and defensive teams and it puts a massive strain on team building. On the other hand, Greninja is incredibly frail and, in a such offensive based metagame like the current ORAS OU one, it has hard times switching in and is relatively easy to revenge kill. It should also be noted that it suffers from 4th moveslot syndrome, being unable to run: Hydro Pump, Gunk Shot, Low Kick, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse and Hidden Power Fire/Grass on the same set.

Use the suspect thread to discuss the suspect and your thoughts on the suspect metagame. If you have any questions, then feel free to contact McMeghan, Aldaron, gr8astard, M Dragon or myself through a PM. These threads tend to get derailed so please make extra effort to stay on topic. Future suspects need not be discussed in the thread.

In order to vote, you'll need to achieve a COIL rating of 2700 or more on the OU Suspect Test ladder, in which Greninja will be banned, that will be implemented very soon. Please note that this rating may not be the final rating required, and we reserve the right to increase or decrease the requirements based upon the first week of laddering. The suspect test will last approximately 2 weeks and will end on Sunday 4 January 2015, 11:59pm EST. The vote will take place in no more than a week after that.
Remember that this is a Suspect Test and that, as of right now, nothing is set in stone. Whether Greninja will continue to be OU or not is entirely up to the playerbase.

We would like to stress that we never have nor ever will claim these are Nintendo-official rules; they are Smogon-official rules that are ONLY enforced in OUR environments. We feel there are many ways to enjoy Pokemon, whether singles, doubles, online, or wifi, and we don't feel any one method or metagame is "better" than another (though we obviously emphasize certain ones).
Finally, it's extremely important to note that YOU have the DIRECT ability to influence these changes; simply play on the suspect ladders, qualify, and vote. The algorithm that determines qualification credentials emphasizes BOTH experience and quality of play, so you don't need to be a "smogon elite" with a 90% win percentage to qualify (if you have a lower win %, you just need to play more games).

Good luck and have fun laddering!

Addendum:
as with the previous OU tests, the B value for this test is 17.0. To figure out how many battles you'll need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rating) and plug that into the following formula:

N=17.0/log2(40*GXE/2700)

(Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing).

Here are some sample values:

Code:

GXE N
100 30
90 41
85 52
80 70
75 112
70 324

Credit for the illustration goes to anundeadboy.

Keep the discussion in this thread civil and avoid making one liners or uninformed posts. Failing to comply with this request will result into your post being deleted and infracted. Thanks for the cooperation.

READ THIS THREAD BEFORE POSTING

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ad-before-posting-in-suspect-threads.3522684/

I think Greninja is just a mess in this metagame. His movepool+ protean pretty much makes him the most versatile mon in the metagame, being able to tear apart everything with all the different stabs he has at its disposal.
Greninja was already painful with the rise of popularity of Spikes in late-XY, but with the addition of Low kick (rip Kyube / Ferrothorn without using hp fire for him) and Gunk shot ( 40 atk is enough to OHKO Standard AVAzumarill and deal a crapload to Clefable and stuff), it's even more ridiculous. AV Azumarill is just worthless as a check now, and Hydro pump is not even an obligation. The mixed set got a perfect coverage on the metagame, and it's not hard to add some teammate to compensate the fact that you only have 4 slot for attacking.

Does it deserves a ban though?

Hell yeah it does. This mon is just too good, to the point it's just cancer to do some teambuilding, since you can just throw your team away if you are weak against it...And if you want to check it, you better have some luck to not see your Rotom-w die to an Hp grass or something like that. The sole fact that you need to use some odd-ass checks like Tentacruel is stupid in itself, blocking teambuilding is, in my opinion at least, the biggest reason to ban a mon.

The main purpose of a suspect/ban is to have a positive impact on the metagame after the ban, and i don't think banning Greninja can make the metagame worse, it's pretty much the contrary actually : having more possibility to build (especially in offense, Greninja is easier to deal for a stall team off course, but you can't call a metagame where everyone is forced to play stall "diverse") is only for the best.

Tl:dr frog painful ban it pls

Thank GOD.

Greninja is by far the most centralizing Pokemon in this meta. The thing I want to emphasize is that there is no true counter to him. At all. Although limited by 4 moveslots, you can pick and choose according to your team. You can never have a Pokemon that truly can switch in without any fear. Chansey and Empoleon were two extremely good switchins even two weeks ago, but the metagame shifted so quickly that even those two are shaky checks atm. The metagame revolves around this Pokemon and if you try to adapt to it, it adapts to you.
This Pokemon basically turns teambuilding into Rock-Paper-Scissors; if Greninja has x move, you have a chance, if Greninja has y move, you lose.

Since when was Greninja a turtle, its a frog for gods sake

But yeah I do think Greninja is kinda broken. It's got an insane variety in its movepool, causing you to run checks that shouldn't be necessary, and absolutely fantastic speed, hell if Mega Salamence wasn't absolutely destroying the tier last month, this thing would have been absolutely rampant (And now that it is banned, Greninja is Rampant). Greninja wouldn't be so broken if it didn't get the moves it got in ORAS, but unfortunately it does, and I think it should be banned

Ban

This thing wrecks offense teams like nobody's business. Its coverage is insane being furthered by receiving gunk shot and low kick with ORAS. Sure there are some counters to various sets, but switch the coverage around a bit and the only sure fire counter is P2.

Even chansey gets 2hko by 252 attack low kick after rocks. There is so much things much frailer then it that can't hope to switch in.

Usually you have to sack something to bring in a revenge killer, which is not healthy for the meta.

While Greninja got Gunk Shot and Low Kick in ORAS, its main issue is still 4MSS, it can't run everything at the same time, which means it will always be walled/checked by common Pokemon in the tier. Also, given its frailty (it isn't switching into anything really), and the fact that it has to pay a 10% tax every time it attacks, it won't last very long. While Greninja has a good speed tier, it it still outsped by many scarfers. ORAS also gave us many fast new Pokemon, MBee, MLop, MScep, and with these come an increase in priority. So now Greninja has to fight both these faster new threats, as well as the increasing priority that is used to deal with these.

If you are going to argue that it runs Hydro Pump | HP Fire | Low Kick | Gunk Shot | Ice Beam | Grass Knot | Spikes | Dark Pulse | Extrasensory and so has no real counters, which is what this thread is really just going to degenerate into...

No Ban

Thanks for this, srly.

Greninja forces using one of his pseudo checks in every team, things like empoleon, kyurem, chansey, scarf keldeo.
Is really too much in OU, best coverage ever, 122 speed and protean, so u stab every move.
No one cares if he is good in ubers, greninja is able to okho 70% of the OU list.

Yeah, is easy to revenge kill, but even blaziken is easy to revenge kill, this didn't mean that greninja should be in OU. Even with a shitty def/sdef, greninja is for killing pokemons and force opponents to sack pokemons for being able to revenge kill him.

Ban ofc

I love Greninja dearly, but it never should have gotten Gunk Shot or Low Kick. Oh well, this might save me from breeding a third one (mixed attacker).

Guess I'll have to find a new volt-turn sweeper if this gets banned.

It's about time this Pokemon got suspected. Greninja with Gunk Shot and Low Kick has probably had the biggest impact on the OU metagame since stuff like Mega Kanga and Mega Lucario were in OU. Greninja has almost no counters in OU this gen. The closest thing being Empoleon but Empoleon still takes a good chunk of damage from Low Kick. Greninja has it's checks but it can just switch out and be saved for later. This monster can ohko to 2hko most of the OU meta so I see this thing receiving the ban hammer and going to Ubers.

Thread title needs to either be a Naruto reference or, if that is too cliche, Battletoads.


Anyway, Greninja reminds me a lot of Aegislash in that it has basically become an offense "glue" much like Aegislash was a strong defensive glue. You can just tack it on at the end of teambuilding, cater its moveset to whatever you think will be alive when your other 5 teammembers are done wrecking, and you're good to go. People will say it needs to carry Ice Beam, Gunk Shot, Low Kick and a coverage move, but given that all of its moves hit reasonably hard, in reality you really only need Ice Beam and maybe Gunk shot depending on your team. Also, both Aegi and Greninja also had a pretty hard-hitting spam attack, which makes switching and scouting a pain and a half:

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pikachu: 282-333 (133 - 157%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pikachu: 277-327 (130.6 - 154.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The only difference is that while Aegislash was hard to kill because of bulk, typing, and King's Shield, Greninja is hard to kill because of raw speed putting it out of range of most of OU's attackers. This is arguably more difficult to deal with during the teambuilding process since you're basically left with Scarfers and incredibly passive walls like Chansey and Porygon2. Scarfers by nature are frail and are almost impossible to switch in on Greninja without heavy reliance on prediction, and if your core is weak to rogue variations of Greninja (e.g. Extrasensory or Grass Knot), you basically end up playing Russian Roulette. All in all, this thing tears through Offensive teams too easily while still being able to dent defensive teams that carry a core weak to unpopular but still viable moves. This frog just strikes me as too versatile and too hard to play around in practice to merit keeping in the meta.

The thing with Greninja is that while it suffers from 4th moveslot syndrome you don't know what coverage moves it's lacking because they are all perfectly viable and you will take lot of damages on your mons / losing one or more while you are scouting its moveset. Plus, it has a rly good matchup especially against your typical balanced team which is huge since people tend to use balanced building nowadays, and while it's true that offense teams have a better day against it, they lose at least one mon in the process as well. Its coverage moves help against Stall teams too, even if from what I could see during my laddering experiences, the biggest part of Greninja users don't use Low Kick so Chansey is a ok switch to it (Blissey takes too much from Gunk Shot tho).

Ive been honestly waiting for this suspect test for a while and I figured it was going to be coming eventually. My new name for Greninja is Mr.NoSwitchIns. Basically with its speed, power (Combo of Protean and Life orb) and versatility, its taking this meta by storm. There is actually not one poke that can counter this monster. Azumarill was one of the number on switch ins, and now with just 40 attack EVs and gunk shot, it loses that title. Low Kick is becoming a more popular set and now chansey is 2HKOed, again another switch that was nerfed. The only way to beat it would be with a scarfer, namely scarf landorus-t, but that has become so widely used now that, you dont have the factor of surprise to kill it with u-turn anymore (only after rocks damage if your jolly scarf). The best way to combat this monster is to take a hit and then kill it, while people still play very safe with it because of how fragile it is. Most people play Greninja as a mon that "ur either kiling whats in front of you garunteed or ur switching out". My psuedo greninja counter is conkeldurr but now with gunk shot it can close to 2HKO it; 40- Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 157-187 (43.9 - 52.3%). I think with all these factors taken into account (power, speed tier, play style, ) this meta will not be fun with Greninja hanging over our heads.

Before ORAS, Greninja was a gerable threat, because it still had a few counters (mainly fairies, and Chansey), and you had to choose your coverage, what you wanted to kill, and therefore, what you wouldn't be able to kill with Greninja. But, adding Gunk Shot and Low Kick changed all this. The first allows to kill Azumarill, Clefable, Sylveon, which totally stopped him before, leaving only Chansey as a true counter. The last one, Low Kick, gives a better coverage, allowing to hit Tyranitar, Heatran and Ferrothorn with one move, so you don't need both Hidden Power Fire and Hydro Pump to beat them all. And that saves one coverage slot. That's exactly what Greninja needed.

Now, facing Greninja makes us face a dilemna: is it running a set with Low Kick, with improved coverage? is it running Hydro Pump, giving an higher raw power? And more than that, what coverage moves did he choose? Now, excepted Chansey, all mons can be hit hard by Greninja (even "gimmicks" like Empoleon are covered). It can ruin most of the teams and is currently limiting teambuilding, making it impossible to play against without very specifics fast checks...

I think Greninja is broken in the tier. Before ORAS, Greninja was one of the defining threats of the metagame, considered by some to even be broken then, thanks to its large movepool, Protean, and amazing Speed, which allowed it to threaten offensive teams as it lacked offensive switch-ins. However, offensive teams usually packed a check like AV Azumarill or Clefable which could take advantage of Greninja's inability to 2HKO them by getting a free turn (well, in Clefable's sake it had to Soft-Boiled). In ORAS, with Gunk Shot, these two counters are invalidated AND Greninja now has a move to hit specially bulky Pokemon with, such as Chansey, which is 2HKOed by Gunk Shot after some hazards. Even nicher counters like Empoleon are wrecked by Low Kick, Low Kick the move that means that the opponent cannot even rely on a miss against their Heatran or Tyranitar. Greninja has no offensive switch-ins now, and its best answers on defensive teams are Tentacruel, which can lose to the rare but viable Extrasensory, and Porygon2, a niche choice. Greninja fully deserves to be banned, it's too difficult to deal with for certain playstyles.

In mid-XY, offensive teams were typically weak to Greninja, an example being the many Mega Charizard Y teams running around the ladder and in tournaments. Now, offensive teams don't have the worst time against it. They typically pack a scarfer to outspeed it, for example, Scarf Landorus-T, the most common scarfer. Full stall is fine too, they usually feature bulky Pokemon like 252/252+ Def Chansey which can get stall out its LO recoil. With Toxic and hazards, Greninja is usually dealt with reasonably well. Balance teams however, usually use cores that have a big problem with Greninja, and it's hard to mitigate this. I think Greninja is limiting the growth of balance and bulky offensive teams and I don't think this is healthy for the meta.

Haunter, what kind of shitass name is this we aren't suspecting Torterra smh.

Greninja is so broken there shouldn't be much argument about banning it. Here's my two cents: With the introduction of ORAS, Greninja was the only former S-Rank Pokemon to perform better than it did in XY. it was scary enough before ORAS, but now it's nothing short of terrifying. With Gunk Shot and Low Kick, many of Ninja's former checks and counters cannot deal with it. Now, the majority of teams have to beat Greninja by LO stalling and winning a bunch of 50/50s to get their scarfer in, or by straight up sacking a Pokemon to revenge-kill Greninja. Basically vs balance or HO, Greninja gets at lest one kill every time it comes in. If you want to counter Greninja now, you are forced to run a select number of specially defensive water Pokemon, most of which kill momentum completely on Balance. This also gives Greninja an overcentralizing aspect. IMO, we should have retested Aegislash, but since we didn't, we should Ban Greninja.

I'm not really entirely sure if greninja is healthy for the OU meta, even though I think it is, I don't think it deserves banned. Everyone is saying that now that it has low kick and gunk shot that it has no counters anymore et cetera, but no one really goes into it after that. I'd just like to point out that the only new move people run on it is gunk shot because the rest of the moves are necessary for actually killing things you normally would. From what I've seen, low kick doesn't get much usage. I'm not entirely sure why people are saying that low kick makes it not walled by chansey anymore, but I don't find that the case at all.
44 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 226-268 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
That doesn't really seem like something that destroys chansey to me. Not only would you have to predict the switch in, but you STILL wouldn't be able to kill with the next hit, even after SR. Giving it time to wish+protect, softboiled, twave or whatever. I'm just saying that chansey is still one hell of a check if you ask me.
Scarf pokemon are the best revenge killers obviously, or really fast pokemon, looking at m-beedril, and it can easily force the opponent to sack something to keep gren alive.
If you look at high level competitive matches, you won't really find people just sacking a pokemon everytime greninja comes in. It just doesn't happen. It DOES have issues, but on paper people are just frightened by the numbers.

Also, let's talk about how the meta will get overcentralized if greninja leaves. I believe that if greninja leaves, we are going to get flooded with strong dragons that are weak to ass who are laughing because they aren't afraid of greninja anymore, as well as even more lando-I and lando-T.

All I'm trying to say is that while I agree that gren is a great pokemon, it still has a lot of problems, checks, and things of the sort.

You convinced me. Please do not ban Greninja.

On a serious note, Greninja is the most meta defined pokemon at the moment. It either forces the player to use pokemon like Tentacruel or Porygon2, who are not necessarily bad, but just will be less viable without Greninja because the thing that put them over other OU pokemon is then gone or let you get wrecked by Greninja
Against stall, Greninja is not in his best form, it can still punch holes but if Chansey or SpD Mega Sableye is healthy, it's not a big issue. Especially if it gets burned, Chansey just destroys Greninja. Pokemon like Alomomola, Jirachi and Tentacruel can also take Greninja depending on the coverage. Even if it runs the coverage to smash Alomomola or Jirachi, Chansey or Mega Sableye can play around it
Balanced has more problems with it but often have a pokemon to outspeed it and smack it with a powerful attack. Ferrothorn and Rotom-W also can tank hits because both HP Fire and HP Grass are uncommon and either wear it down even faster with Iron Barbs and Leech Seed or give a free volt switch into something that either outspeeds Greninja or something that can tank a hit and retaliate back. However, that are the only things balance have for Greninja. Pokemon like Chansey suck on balance and getting your free switch into Keldeo reveals your obvious choice scarf and Greninja will just switch out to kill you another time.
Bulky and Hyper Offense can't switch in. Nothing avoids the 2HKO and the basically every time it comes in it gets a kill. Scarfers, Mega Lopunny and Thundurus are too obvious as revenge killers and you can just switch out. The pressure Greninja puts on balance and offense is just ridiculous
In my opinion Greninja is not healthy for the metagame because it forces the opponent to either run suboptimal items, moves or pokemon or get swept by this thing and I think it should be banned

BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN

Okay, first of all, if people are using Porygon2 just to counter this thing, something's probably wrong.

Alright, now for actual arguments. Greninja's ridiculous versatility means you have to scout its movesets and possibly lose one or more Pokemon in the process, but to make matters even worse, even a team prepared for, say, Gunk Shot / Ice Beam / Low Kick / Dark Pulse Greninja could lose to Greninja that simply carry something like Extrasensory or Grass Knot instead. And then there's the matchup against offense. Here's a list of Pokemon that you can actually use on offense that can switch in on Greninja:




See how empty that list is?

Basically, offense is limited to revenge killing, and wow how oh so reliable. Greninja will just switch to a counter. Greninja just gets a free kill every time it comes in, basically. It seems like, to me, Greninja is to offense what BW Landorus-I was to defense. And even defensive teams are forced to run suboptimal garbage like Porygon2 just to counter this thing, and when something can force people to run suboptimal Pokemon that give them nothing except for counter said Pokemon, it should probably be banned.

I've been waiting for this thread for some time now. Greninja definitely needs to go. STAB on everything and movepool good enough to beat its previous "checks" is bad for the meta. And the fact that you usually have to sack a Poke just to know if it's running Gunk Shot or Low Kick is just a win-win situation with little to no drawback for whoever has the Greninja. Genesect is basically the same thing (with a few exceptions... Shift Gear). This thing definitely deserves to go.

Please ban this thing.

Edit: Whoever wants this thing to stay in OU really needs to go back to XY OU and hope ORAS was just a dream.

Don't usually post here, but figured I'd leave my two cents.

With Greninja getting Gunk Shot and Low Kick in ORAS, it became a much more potent threat. While in XY it was considered a solid, anti-offensive pokemon and was A+/S caliber, it's now able to threaten fairy types (Clefable, Azumarill, Gardevoir, Sylveon, etc.) with Gunk Shot (only needs 40 attack EVs to OHKO Azumarill and do enough damage to each of these pokemon) and other problematic pokemon with Low Kick (Chansey, Ferrothorn, Kyurem-B, etc.). It's true that this makes finding the right four moves a struggle for Greninja (4mss) due to all of the options (Gunk Shot Low Kick Ice Beam Dark Pulse Extrasensory HP Fire Grass Knot Hydro Pump etc.), but there are now very few pokemon that can counter it regardless of the set.

Greninja wouldn't be such an issue if it wasn't so quick, but it has enough speed to outpace the entire unboosted/unmega evolved metagame which makes switching in on it a challenge for most offensive or balanced teams, especially if they lack Scarf Keldeo which has risen in usage thanks to Greninja. With this speed, coverage, and the protean ability, it's safe to say that Greninja is one of the most potent threats in OU currently despite it being very frail. Due to this and the lack of counters to Greninja in the current metagame, I'd say that the frog is broken.

Before ORAS came out, I had no problems with greninja. But everything changed when the move tutors (with gunk shot and low kick) came out. Now, there are no or few counters. ferro gets wrecked by hp fire, rotom-w by hp grass, mega venusaur by extrasensory, bulky fairies like azumarill and sylveon by gunk shot and chansey (and tyranitar) even by low kick. everytime, when I face against a greninja, I'm really afraid of save switching.

Yes, there are checks, but I have to sack at least 1 pkmn for a free switch.

And it has also STAB to everything thanks to protean. It's like a free choice specs/band.

BAN

I have been wanting this suspect test to take place for a while. Christmas has come early :-)

Prior to ORAS Ninja was extremely good, but it was still balanced. While it had lots of powerful offensive options it was hard walled by most fairies and the fat blobs of OU. The physical attacker set was also completely un-viable. But as we know Ninja got Low Kick and Gunk Shot and things changed dramatically.

Gunk Shot meant that half of its checks/counters (i.e all the fairies) all suddenly became liabilities. Meanwhile Low Kick reduced many of its other checks. Another factor to consider is that these 2 moves have made mixed Ninja very viable, and physical Ninja an acceptable surprise set. The ability for ninja to be special, mixed, physical and a spike setter means the opponent has no idea what its going to do, even after several turns have passed.

The consequences of all these sets being viable is drastic, it limits team-building significantly (especially for offence teams) and has forced niche options to be used only for checking him (something most broken mons do). As so few things can handle him it becomes a lottery on which of your pokemon can beat it. Send in ferrothorn to tank and slowly kill it? Nope it had HP fire. Try mew? Nope Dark Pulse etc. Ninja can't beat anything, but your opponent can easily sack half his team before he finds a check, and by that time its gg. For this reason the 4MSS argument is not valid in my opinion.

Yes he is frail and priority weak (unless you are using the slightly gimmicky water Shuriken), but in practice these flaws are just not enough to prevent it doing its job (you don't have to use life orb to kill things btw). Ninja is centralizing and limiting the meta-game and needs to go.

Which "common" ou pokemon do you see walling Greninja? If any potential checks are common outside of stall, it's likely a result of Greninja's influence.

Of course Greninja can't run all the moves you listed, but it doesn't need to. Greninja doesn't just come out as a lead and 6-0 every team. The problem is that when team building, you think you're using a Greninja check (lets say Tentacruel), but when you switch it in on the hydro or whatever, you just die to an extrasensory next turn and then have a good chance of losing the game. Greninja can a) pick its own checks and b) easily have team mates that handle the checks.
If you bring in Ferrorthorn, you might lose to an HP fire. Rotom wash-might lose to a grass type move. If you put tenta, ferro, and rotom-w on the same team, then probably one of them would check a given Greninja set, but clearly it's ridiculous to run 3 mons to check just one.

The fact that it can be outsped by some new megas, can lose to priority, and loses health with a life orb also does little to slow it down. Yes, offensive teams have means to revenge kill Greninja. No, this doesn't make it less broken. I can just switch my greninja out for a counter to whatever mon you brought in (note that this is only relevant AFTER Greninja gets at least one kill) and bring Greninja back later on to kill something new. You shouldn't be required to sack a mon every time just to bring in something offensive that can outspeed and kill Greninja. Life orb isn't usually a big deal because Greninja should rarely/never take hits. If you still need something from Greninja, then good players will always switch out when the opponent has something in that threatens Gren. Good luck predicting right 10 times (less with hazards but whatever) on what move Greninja is going to use.

I'm predicting this suspect test to easily be the most controversial due to Greninja's insane popularity it has garnered since its inclusion in XY. Everyone loves this damn frog. Shieeet, I don't think i've built an ORAS team thus far without it! :]

With that being said, the main culprit as to why Ninja is even being suspected right now is obviously Gunk Shot. Fairies that used to switch into Ninja with impunity in XY get absolutely shat on in ORAS; which decreased its amount of viable counters significantly. This move alone on Greninja has single-handedly risen the usage of mixed walls such as Empoleon, Porygon-2, and Tentacruel in attempt of walling it.

Greninja's biggest, and arguably only con in the current meta, is its severe 4 move slot syndrome it suffers from that prevents it from being able to cover every relevant counter. This is what's preventing Greninja's "broken" status imho

I may be somewhat biased but i'm strictly No Ban atm

Yeah so let's start the building phase of every team around mola or chansey. Both are 2 stall mons, let's kill other playstyles only for greninja. This means centralizing the game around a single pokemon, and this is the worst thing that can happen. Let's rename Oras OU in Greninja OU, because this is what happen, and this is what happened with mega mence.

The problem with Porygon 2 is that taking hits is all it can really do. It's super passive, which is a terrible thing to be in a metagame where a Mega Sableye can Calm Mind in your face or a Mega Gallade uses you to get up a free Swords Dance. It can take hits, sure, but it barely can do much of anything back besides Toxic.