lmfao 10/10
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np: ORAS UU Stage 3.1 - Sex on Fire [Victini Remains BL]
- Thread starter Sam
- Start date
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dude they cant take a joke.
Autistim isn't a joke.
I've probably dedicated too much of my life to fighting Victini being in UU; it's absurdly powerful and is armed to the teeth with viable coverage moves.
Half of you rooting for Victini's return are going to complain about it being back in less than 3 weeks. You're probably making a mistake by reintroducing it.
/me returns to the dead
Nah, I figured it was a joke, but the nitpicker in me refused to be idle.
So time for post reqs post:
I found that in the ladder and meta in general in Victini was easy to deal with (partly due to over preparedness.) Victini has weaknesses to pursuit trappers, stealth rocks and has many many checks, although it does not have a pure counter. That being said, I will vote ban. The fact that Victini forces you to run 2-3 victini checks for all its different sets is way too over centralizing. If you only run 1 check( say something that can take a banded V-create) you risk losing to a mixtini which has just the perfect coverage for your team. The fact that you need to run more than 1 or check or pray that his victini doesn't have the moveset to beat you is unhealthy, overcentralizing, and is ultimately what makes Victini banworthy imo.
I found that in the ladder and meta in general in Victini was easy to deal with (partly due to over preparedness.) Victini has weaknesses to pursuit trappers, stealth rocks and has many many checks, although it does not have a pure counter. That being said, I will vote ban. The fact that Victini forces you to run 2-3 victini checks for all its different sets is way too over centralizing. If you only run 1 check( say something that can take a banded V-create) you risk losing to a mixtini which has just the perfect coverage for your team. The fact that you need to run more than 1 or check or pray that his victini doesn't have the moveset to beat you is unhealthy, overcentralizing, and is ultimately what makes Victini banworthy imo.
I will vote for ban Victini from UU. Its too OP for UU it makes a lot of Damage on physical Wall which isn't normal.
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 159-189 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO
wtf ?
And it outspeeds with its Choice Scarf everything in UU and also can go for a speed tier with the best scarfer Salamence, which is in my opinion not fair.
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 159-189 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO
wtf ?
And it outspeeds with its Choice Scarf everything in UU and also can go for a speed tier with the best scarfer Salamence, which is in my opinion not fair.
Well this last page of discussion has been useless, which is a shame because Victini is a really interesting suspect.
It's also a really hard suspect to judge, at least for me personally. Victini has got some really obvious pro's and con's. Its pro's obviously lie in the power of its CB set and its versatility of the mixed sets. I've mainly messed around with the CB set because was my team appreciated the immediate power and it fits really well on Volturn based teams. I had varying results while using it. Good bulk and a decent typing allow it to get onto the field rather easily (provided you keep hazards off, which isn't terribly hard to do) and it puts a lot of pressure on the opponent. Spamming V-Create isn't a very reliable strategy though. It shined against some unprepared teams (this battle was fun), but it has trouble with bulky Water(/Ground) types or more dedicated counters like Defensive Salamence, Arcanine or Gligar. Heavy reliance on V-Create also makes it really easy to revenge or trap Victini. Sometimes you don't even want to lock yourself into V-Create out of fear for giving Gatr, Salamence or Mega Aero opportunity to set up. In conclusion, it isn't impossible to overcome for defensive teams whereas it's just another mon for offensive teams to beat.
The mixed set is an entirely different beast though. With a standard moveset of V-Create | Bolt Strike | Grass Knot/Energy Ball | Glaciate/Psychic @ Life Orb, it's pretty effective at luring most of the standard checks and counters to the CB set. Realistically you want to run 2 different checks to Victini which isn't healthy at all, especially considering the huge amount of other threats in UU you need to cover. Meanwhile, the mixed set got several advantages over the CB set like not caring as much about hazards (less switching needed) or being harder to revenge kill (lower reliance on V-Create). Victini also becomes a bit harder to Pursuit trap without getting those V-Create drops, not to mention that the best Pursuit trapper, Krookodile, risks getting KO'd by the Grass move of choice. All those points make MixTini a lot more effective versus offense as well as ripping most balanced builds apart with its coverage and speed.
So yeah right now I'm leaning ban, but if I find some time to mess around with MixTini more, I might come back and edit this. Sorry if it's rambly, I was in a bit of a hurry oO.
Also one last thing: when skimming through this thread, there was at least 1 user who said that he didn't think Victini was broken, but that it makes the meta too offensive alongside other stuff like Mamo. I can understand what you're coming from, but banning a mon that you don't think is broken is pretty retarded, so maybe rethink that a little! I agree Mamo is a really dumb mon though :/
It's also a really hard suspect to judge, at least for me personally. Victini has got some really obvious pro's and con's. Its pro's obviously lie in the power of its CB set and its versatility of the mixed sets. I've mainly messed around with the CB set because was my team appreciated the immediate power and it fits really well on Volturn based teams. I had varying results while using it. Good bulk and a decent typing allow it to get onto the field rather easily (provided you keep hazards off, which isn't terribly hard to do) and it puts a lot of pressure on the opponent. Spamming V-Create isn't a very reliable strategy though. It shined against some unprepared teams (this battle was fun), but it has trouble with bulky Water(/Ground) types or more dedicated counters like Defensive Salamence, Arcanine or Gligar. Heavy reliance on V-Create also makes it really easy to revenge or trap Victini. Sometimes you don't even want to lock yourself into V-Create out of fear for giving Gatr, Salamence or Mega Aero opportunity to set up. In conclusion, it isn't impossible to overcome for defensive teams whereas it's just another mon for offensive teams to beat.
The mixed set is an entirely different beast though. With a standard moveset of V-Create | Bolt Strike | Grass Knot/Energy Ball | Glaciate/Psychic @ Life Orb, it's pretty effective at luring most of the standard checks and counters to the CB set. Realistically you want to run 2 different checks to Victini which isn't healthy at all, especially considering the huge amount of other threats in UU you need to cover. Meanwhile, the mixed set got several advantages over the CB set like not caring as much about hazards (less switching needed) or being harder to revenge kill (lower reliance on V-Create). Victini also becomes a bit harder to Pursuit trap without getting those V-Create drops, not to mention that the best Pursuit trapper, Krookodile, risks getting KO'd by the Grass move of choice. All those points make MixTini a lot more effective versus offense as well as ripping most balanced builds apart with its coverage and speed.
So yeah right now I'm leaning ban, but if I find some time to mess around with MixTini more, I might come back and edit this. Sorry if it's rambly, I was in a bit of a hurry oO.
Also one last thing: when skimming through this thread, there was at least 1 user who said that he didn't think Victini was broken, but that it makes the meta too offensive alongside other stuff like Mamo. I can understand what you're coming from, but banning a mon that you don't think is broken is pretty retarded, so maybe rethink that a little! I agree Mamo is a really dumb mon though :/
i'm not sure what i'm gonna vote to be honest, aside from zorodark's post the ban arguments haven't really swayed me but after playing a lot of matches here's what i think about it
i honestly feel like people are overrating mixtini..like, a lot. yeah it has really great coverage but once u find out its mixtini, then it's easily choreographed, even if you take a bit of damage in the process. cbtini as we all know is a fuckin nuke but pursuit trapping is much more common, and the meta is arguably faster too, what with megapert being one of the best mons in the meta right now, and with dragons like hydrei and mence being as good as always hurts victini too, which is why i think people are giving it more credit against offensive teams than it really is. i mean out of the times i've seen mixtini being ran i have not seen one using focus blast which is only hitting lax and doom off the top of my mind, the latter of which isn't too common right now (yeah there's hydrei but why wouldn't you use glaciate if you wanna hit that lol). i agree with zoro on how tini isn't as pressed to use v-create without cb as much, though.
a huge thing to me, imo, is the fact that while v-create is obviously what makes tini so good, it also hurts it, because there comes a huge opportunity cost with using it, and against offensive teams more likely than not it's going to be forced out right after using it.. which isn't great when you couple that with tini's weakness to stealth rocks. a lot of people bring up how more people have teams trying to check victini as best as they can instead of actually using it, but when you really think about it, isn't that the same case for 90% of lower tier suspect tests?
however the big thing i noticed, which some others have brought up, is how the ladder is filled to the brim with either hyper offensive teams or stall teams, which i think is true. balance just isn't that good right now. there's too much threats you have to account for, but the thing about it is is that tini isn't the reason for all of this, it's just icing on the cake. the real offender imo to balance being at arguably the worst it's been for a few months is bird / gatr (and mamo to a lesser extent), which is pretty apparent when you realize that at least half of the balance teams right now have either p2 or aero. idk about you guys but i wouldn't run balance in a meta where you have to account for 4 obscenely powerful threats, plus all the other relevant mons.
idk though. i might ban it, i might not, but for now i'm leaning towards abstaining. the thing i'm thinkin about though is the fact that there are problems with this metagame, but tini isn't really the elephant in the room i'm worrying about. sorry if this post is really messy with me jumping all over the place and all, it's kind of just a conglomeration of Me Thoughts. feel free to disagree cause im kinda out of it lool, i like hogg's post though he brings up a lot of good points which is what's making me kinda on the fence
i honestly feel like people are overrating mixtini..like, a lot. yeah it has really great coverage but once u find out its mixtini, then it's easily choreographed, even if you take a bit of damage in the process. cbtini as we all know is a fuckin nuke but pursuit trapping is much more common, and the meta is arguably faster too, what with megapert being one of the best mons in the meta right now, and with dragons like hydrei and mence being as good as always hurts victini too, which is why i think people are giving it more credit against offensive teams than it really is. i mean out of the times i've seen mixtini being ran i have not seen one using focus blast which is only hitting lax and doom off the top of my mind, the latter of which isn't too common right now (yeah there's hydrei but why wouldn't you use glaciate if you wanna hit that lol). i agree with zoro on how tini isn't as pressed to use v-create without cb as much, though.
a huge thing to me, imo, is the fact that while v-create is obviously what makes tini so good, it also hurts it, because there comes a huge opportunity cost with using it, and against offensive teams more likely than not it's going to be forced out right after using it.. which isn't great when you couple that with tini's weakness to stealth rocks. a lot of people bring up how more people have teams trying to check victini as best as they can instead of actually using it, but when you really think about it, isn't that the same case for 90% of lower tier suspect tests?
however the big thing i noticed, which some others have brought up, is how the ladder is filled to the brim with either hyper offensive teams or stall teams, which i think is true. balance just isn't that good right now. there's too much threats you have to account for, but the thing about it is is that tini isn't the reason for all of this, it's just icing on the cake. the real offender imo to balance being at arguably the worst it's been for a few months is bird / gatr (and mamo to a lesser extent), which is pretty apparent when you realize that at least half of the balance teams right now have either p2 or aero. idk about you guys but i wouldn't run balance in a meta where you have to account for 4 obscenely powerful threats, plus all the other relevant mons.
idk though. i might ban it, i might not, but for now i'm leaning towards abstaining. the thing i'm thinkin about though is the fact that there are problems with this metagame, but tini isn't really the elephant in the room i'm worrying about. sorry if this post is really messy with me jumping all over the place and all, it's kind of just a conglomeration of Me Thoughts. feel free to disagree cause im kinda out of it lool, i like hogg's post though he brings up a lot of good points which is what's making me kinda on the fence
In Bouffalant's last post he said that the non ban arguments haven't really swayed him so I would like to at least attempt to make a well thought out and cogent post about my thoughts on this current suspect in hopes that not only him, but other undecided voters will have good arguments to view regarding this suspect.
Okay, so the easiest way for me to do this is going to be to look at each component of Victini's drop individually and address some common concerns and try to refute a couple of prominent arguments with counterpoints of my own. The most important aspects of Victini's drop are these: Is Victini able to be stopped, How it affects teambuilding, and What trends it has on the metagame.
Is Victini Able to be Stopped?
On paper? No. However, as I'm sure pretty much everyone here has noticed, impossibility to deal with doesn't always transfer seamlessly from the page to the game. One aspect that especially goes unnoticed in the pro ban argument is the burden of prediction that comes with using MixTini. This isn't so much of an issue against slower teams who are unprepared but especially against faster teams, one misstep means your Victini is dead. This is also true when dealing with the better switch ins we have to Victini. Arcanine and Mega Ampharos are hailed as the end all be all best switch ins to Victini and when Tini doesn't click Psychic on the switch in then it's forced out, likely taking an extra 25% in addition to the Life Orb recoil, slowly diminishing its great natural bulk. In addition, Snorlax, an already fantastic pokemon in the metagame is a solid stop to the Victory pokemon. Focus Blast is a shaky coverage option and only really hits Snorlax while barely 2hkoing after rocks (it might not even kill I don't feel like running a calc). Defensively, Victini is certainly a threat and difficult to prepare for. However, preparedness in addition to smart scouting and keeping up hazards leaves Victini in a rather precarious position.
Another important aspect to enforce is how difficult it is for Victini to come in and how choreographed its sets are. Many pokemon currently have no trouble hitting Victini hard. Examples include Aero, Krook, Gatr, Pert, Cune, etc. (shitty list but too lazy to look up more). Anyways, it is difficult for Victini to come in for free except on turns where you click something like Stealth Rock and even on those turns it is crazy obvious you're clicking Energy Ball and you can react accordingly. Throughout the suspect I lost to one Victini team and it was last night against Slate. I don't remember exactly what happened but I was using my Baking with YABO team and had I memento'd the last turn I would have won. He had taunt Krookodile and Victini on the field. Scarf Chandelure clicks Fire Blast hoping to catch the Krookodile but failing to. The bluff from slate. accomplish anything because simply eyeballing any set without Choice Band reveals exactly what it is. Play carefully and you won't be caught off guard.
To finish this section, there are more defensive checks than are credited due to the difficult with prediction. Furthermore, it is difficult for Victini to get free turns given its poor defensive typing and weakness to a lot of common defensive pokemon. This thread has talked a lot about checking Tini offensively so I'll leave that out but defensively checking Victini is not as impossible as it looks on paper. I know ScraftyIsTheBest made a similar argument surrounding Greninja I believe stating that "prediction is an integral part of the game" (paraphrased). This is especially relevant in this case where Victini is certainly more wallable than Greninja and also more easily revenged, capitalized on, and slower.
How Victini Affects Teambuilding
Victini's affect on teambuilding really shouldn't be all that much. I keep seeing this argument of forcing teams to have two checks in order to be safe from Victini. In what world is a team with Mega Aerodactyl and Snorlax a bad team? Those are two of the best pokemon in the metagame and they both function as solid answers to Tini. There are other combos here that also work well and feature the best pokemon in the metagame. I don't think anyone is arguing that Victini is going to be any lower than S/A+ rank and is it not common to run more than one check to those threats? I don't know about you but I can't count the number of times I've seen promising offense teams fold to Suicune because the only way of breaking it is with Heracross and Burn stalling leads to a very depressing Crocune sweep. Heracross is ONE check. More defensive teams will often have a roar user and even a Perish Song user in order to stop Suicune. Feraligatr needs several checks to it as well as having no true counter. In this case, the most natural answers to it can't even hit it back! Long story short, Victini will promote the use of Snorlax as well as other Water-types to help sponge the Fire-type moves while having a good answer to MixTini. The most important portion of this argument is that THE THINGS THAT STOP VICTINI ARE GOOD. The most common answers to it are already top dogs like Snorlax or were just slightly overshadowed but with an extra motivator can shine again (amphy).
Metagame Trends on the Ladder
On this suspect ladder there was a distinct lack of Victini which is fairly unfortunate as I feel like with a wider range of exposure I think more people would be anti ban. Regardless, the trends that emerged on this ladder were specifically anti Victini. Rises of Krook, Chandelure, Mega Aero, Ampharos, double bulky water offense, and Snorlax strike me as the most noticeable of the bunch. All of these pokemon were top dogs prior to Victini's introduction and function to keep it in check looking toward the future. Other interesting things I noticed a fair amount were Honchkrow, Entei, Absol, Dragalge, and Blastoise. Most of these were pokemon that couldnt really shine but have more utility now that Victini has returned.
In summation, Victini is certainly a threat in the current Underused metagame. However, I think its threat level is HIGHLY exaggerated. As other users have said, a quick damage calc reveals your opponents set the second it comes in. Victini's purported bulk is compromised by its poor defensive typing and weakness to hazards. In addition, sets without Life Orb are piss weak and fail to break the walls it needs to. When Victini is carrying Life Orb then that extra 10% per turn further exacerbates Victini's trouble staying alive. V-Create defense drops + Life Orb recoil + Vulnerability to hazards leave Victini gasping for air in a lot of different team matchups. The key to fight Victini is to play proactively. Do not let yourself fall into a position where Victini comes in for free against something. Rack up chip damage to the point where Victini is useless and can't use its good bulk anymore. Carrying a couple solid checks pretty much guarantees you will outlast Victini if it is running Life Orb. Other alternatives include capitalizing on Victini by utilizing Pokemon like Feraligatr who are arguably much more threatening than Victini. If all else fails, Pursuit trapping or trapping with Dugtrio is perfectly viable. Overall, there are many viable ways to deal with Victini both offensively and defensively. FREE VICTINI
Okay, so the easiest way for me to do this is going to be to look at each component of Victini's drop individually and address some common concerns and try to refute a couple of prominent arguments with counterpoints of my own. The most important aspects of Victini's drop are these: Is Victini able to be stopped, How it affects teambuilding, and What trends it has on the metagame.
Is Victini Able to be Stopped?
On paper? No. However, as I'm sure pretty much everyone here has noticed, impossibility to deal with doesn't always transfer seamlessly from the page to the game. One aspect that especially goes unnoticed in the pro ban argument is the burden of prediction that comes with using MixTini. This isn't so much of an issue against slower teams who are unprepared but especially against faster teams, one misstep means your Victini is dead. This is also true when dealing with the better switch ins we have to Victini. Arcanine and Mega Ampharos are hailed as the end all be all best switch ins to Victini and when Tini doesn't click Psychic on the switch in then it's forced out, likely taking an extra 25% in addition to the Life Orb recoil, slowly diminishing its great natural bulk. In addition, Snorlax, an already fantastic pokemon in the metagame is a solid stop to the Victory pokemon. Focus Blast is a shaky coverage option and only really hits Snorlax while barely 2hkoing after rocks (it might not even kill I don't feel like running a calc). Defensively, Victini is certainly a threat and difficult to prepare for. However, preparedness in addition to smart scouting and keeping up hazards leaves Victini in a rather precarious position.
Another important aspect to enforce is how difficult it is for Victini to come in and how choreographed its sets are. Many pokemon currently have no trouble hitting Victini hard. Examples include Aero, Krook, Gatr, Pert, Cune, etc. (shitty list but too lazy to look up more). Anyways, it is difficult for Victini to come in for free except on turns where you click something like Stealth Rock and even on those turns it is crazy obvious you're clicking Energy Ball and you can react accordingly. Throughout the suspect I lost to one Victini team and it was last night against Slate. I don't remember exactly what happened but I was using my Baking with YABO team and had I memento'd the last turn I would have won. He had taunt Krookodile and Victini on the field. Scarf Chandelure clicks Fire Blast hoping to catch the Krookodile but failing to. The bluff from slate. accomplish anything because simply eyeballing any set without Choice Band reveals exactly what it is. Play carefully and you won't be caught off guard.
To finish this section, there are more defensive checks than are credited due to the difficult with prediction. Furthermore, it is difficult for Victini to get free turns given its poor defensive typing and weakness to a lot of common defensive pokemon. This thread has talked a lot about checking Tini offensively so I'll leave that out but defensively checking Victini is not as impossible as it looks on paper. I know ScraftyIsTheBest made a similar argument surrounding Greninja I believe stating that "prediction is an integral part of the game" (paraphrased). This is especially relevant in this case where Victini is certainly more wallable than Greninja and also more easily revenged, capitalized on, and slower.
How Victini Affects Teambuilding
Victini's affect on teambuilding really shouldn't be all that much. I keep seeing this argument of forcing teams to have two checks in order to be safe from Victini. In what world is a team with Mega Aerodactyl and Snorlax a bad team? Those are two of the best pokemon in the metagame and they both function as solid answers to Tini. There are other combos here that also work well and feature the best pokemon in the metagame. I don't think anyone is arguing that Victini is going to be any lower than S/A+ rank and is it not common to run more than one check to those threats? I don't know about you but I can't count the number of times I've seen promising offense teams fold to Suicune because the only way of breaking it is with Heracross and Burn stalling leads to a very depressing Crocune sweep. Heracross is ONE check. More defensive teams will often have a roar user and even a Perish Song user in order to stop Suicune. Feraligatr needs several checks to it as well as having no true counter. In this case, the most natural answers to it can't even hit it back! Long story short, Victini will promote the use of Snorlax as well as other Water-types to help sponge the Fire-type moves while having a good answer to MixTini. The most important portion of this argument is that THE THINGS THAT STOP VICTINI ARE GOOD. The most common answers to it are already top dogs like Snorlax or were just slightly overshadowed but with an extra motivator can shine again (amphy).
Metagame Trends on the Ladder
On this suspect ladder there was a distinct lack of Victini which is fairly unfortunate as I feel like with a wider range of exposure I think more people would be anti ban. Regardless, the trends that emerged on this ladder were specifically anti Victini. Rises of Krook, Chandelure, Mega Aero, Ampharos, double bulky water offense, and Snorlax strike me as the most noticeable of the bunch. All of these pokemon were top dogs prior to Victini's introduction and function to keep it in check looking toward the future. Other interesting things I noticed a fair amount were Honchkrow, Entei, Absol, Dragalge, and Blastoise. Most of these were pokemon that couldnt really shine but have more utility now that Victini has returned.
In summation, Victini is certainly a threat in the current Underused metagame. However, I think its threat level is HIGHLY exaggerated. As other users have said, a quick damage calc reveals your opponents set the second it comes in. Victini's purported bulk is compromised by its poor defensive typing and weakness to hazards. In addition, sets without Life Orb are piss weak and fail to break the walls it needs to. When Victini is carrying Life Orb then that extra 10% per turn further exacerbates Victini's trouble staying alive. V-Create defense drops + Life Orb recoil + Vulnerability to hazards leave Victini gasping for air in a lot of different team matchups. The key to fight Victini is to play proactively. Do not let yourself fall into a position where Victini comes in for free against something. Rack up chip damage to the point where Victini is useless and can't use its good bulk anymore. Carrying a couple solid checks pretty much guarantees you will outlast Victini if it is running Life Orb. Other alternatives include capitalizing on Victini by utilizing Pokemon like Feraligatr who are arguably much more threatening than Victini. If all else fails, Pursuit trapping or trapping with Dugtrio is perfectly viable. Overall, there are many viable ways to deal with Victini both offensively and defensively. FREE VICTINI
LilOu
PO poopyhead
I won't lie, at first I thought Victini would be broke, but after getting the requirements, I have come to the conclusion that it is not. Yabo makes a really good work when arguing upon this; how Victini fares in papers differs way too much from how it fares in reality. Prediction is one key component against the "Tini can just run every single coverage move to beat every single switchin" argument, without taking into account that there are only 4 moveslots available. We are in a game where just clicking moves blindly doesn't work, and Victini's meh speed tier is something that isn't helping either vs. fast paced game, which is, in my opinion, the best way to deal with it. Keeping pressure and being proactive have been the most important tools I have had when laddering, as my team doesn't have a single switchin to MixTini yet I've managed a good 50/17 score for the reqs. Taking all this into account plus what Yabo and others have well said, I have decided that brokenness is not a good argument against its ban.
But don't get me wrong, brokenness alone is not what determines if a Pokemon is healthy or not for the metagame. I want you to sit for a little bit and remember how was the pre-Victini ladder. Remember the battles, the threats, the playstyles you could use. I certainly feel the metagame is more cancerous now. Victini does restrict teambuilding. Offense is doing good vs. it, as Scarf Victini is just not good and Choice Banded has more ways to deal with, but Mixed Victini completely destroys balance, and before you raise me Snorlax, Rotom-H, Arcanine or Cresselia, we must remember that a team is not only made by 1 mon, but there are other 5 slots to help it. Victini has joined the plethora of huge threats that dominate the UU metagame, being easily paired with a lot of dangerous mons like Mamoswine and Feraligatr, ultimately overwhelming balance and even stall-oriented teams as the all incredibly benefited by what Victini breaks and vice-versa, making them almost unviable. It's scary when I try to build balance teams, they have been well known as one of the best and safest playstyles before Mamo and Tini came to UU, as they almost always didn't rely on team matchup, being one of the huge pros of using said teams, but now every time I try to have an answer for Victini, I realize the team is now weak to something else like SD Feraligatr, and when I finally handle that too, Heracross destroys the team. It's not a matter of bad skills at teambuilding, but it's that we can't have 10 mons on the team to cover the top threats right now. This wasn't like that before, there were more variety of mons we could choose from, but with Victini joining the party, the viability of defensive teams is going downhill.
All in all, I like Victini, it's not broken as I have stated earlier, but it is just incredibly unhealthy for this metagame, UU would be way better and balanced without it, so I plan to vote BAN VICTINI.
But don't get me wrong, brokenness alone is not what determines if a Pokemon is healthy or not for the metagame. I want you to sit for a little bit and remember how was the pre-Victini ladder. Remember the battles, the threats, the playstyles you could use. I certainly feel the metagame is more cancerous now. Victini does restrict teambuilding. Offense is doing good vs. it, as Scarf Victini is just not good and Choice Banded has more ways to deal with, but Mixed Victini completely destroys balance, and before you raise me Snorlax, Rotom-H, Arcanine or Cresselia, we must remember that a team is not only made by 1 mon, but there are other 5 slots to help it. Victini has joined the plethora of huge threats that dominate the UU metagame, being easily paired with a lot of dangerous mons like Mamoswine and Feraligatr, ultimately overwhelming balance and even stall-oriented teams as the all incredibly benefited by what Victini breaks and vice-versa, making them almost unviable. It's scary when I try to build balance teams, they have been well known as one of the best and safest playstyles before Mamo and Tini came to UU, as they almost always didn't rely on team matchup, being one of the huge pros of using said teams, but now every time I try to have an answer for Victini, I realize the team is now weak to something else like SD Feraligatr, and when I finally handle that too, Heracross destroys the team. It's not a matter of bad skills at teambuilding, but it's that we can't have 10 mons on the team to cover the top threats right now. This wasn't like that before, there were more variety of mons we could choose from, but with Victini joining the party, the viability of defensive teams is going downhill.
All in all, I like Victini, it's not broken as I have stated earlier, but it is just incredibly unhealthy for this metagame, UU would be way better and balanced without it, so I plan to vote BAN VICTINI.
YABO brought up some really good points and many of those were some of the points that I was going to touch on, so this may sound like a repetition of what he and others said before but after having obtained reqs I feel the need to share my personal thoughts on Victini. It's up to you whether or not you agree with this, and some of them may appear rather radical to some of you, but I still feel the need to express what I think before I vote on Victini.
The first and most important point I'm going to make is based on whether or not Victini is broken, and that is the opportunity cost that comes with Victini doing its job. The only reason that Victini hits as hard as it does is because of the 180 BP STAB move known as V-Create. However, there is a plethora of Pokemon that can revenge kill or deal with Victini after it has clicked V-Create, and many who can setup on Victini after it has clicked V-Create. Therefore, most of the raw "brokenness" of Victini comes from the fact that not only can it click a move that serves as a reliable nuke but also can use a whole lot of different, very strong moves which serve as brilliant coverage options. Energy Ball/Grass Knot, Focus Blast, Dazzling Gleam, Thunder/Bolt Strike, Glaciate and U-Turn are the most common and best moves Victini can run outside of V-Create, but in reality Victini will almost always run V-Create/Energy Ball or Grass Knot/Bolt Strike or Thunder/U-Turn or Glaciate. This is the most common charcoal/ebelt/LO set and all of these sets are revealed the minute Victini clicks a move- it's so incredibly easy to tell whether or not Victini is a mixed lure set or a CB set the minute it clicks a move, because of the damage differences. The thing about Victini is that it doesn't have a whole lot of statistical power, and all the power it has comes from the high BP of the main moves it uses- having a 180 BP physical STAB, a 130 BP physical coverage move and another 130 BP special STAB is quite frightening, but 100/100/100 attacking stats is quite average. If Victini decides to click V-Create vs a team with anything to take advantage of it (every team on suspect ladder) it forces its own team into difficult situations trying to deal with things like SD/DD Feraligatr, DD Salamence and Rain Dance Mega Swampert, all of which are more subjectively frightening against offense and balance than Victini is. The Victini user in question has to be much more careful about clicking V-Create than they did back in XY where there was almost nothing to punish V-Create spam, and this means that more often than not if they see something that could take advantage of V-Create they may simply U-Turn out or use one of their coverage moves- all of which don't deal significant damage and only make it an average UU pokemon. All of the power that fuels Victini comes from V-Create, and if the opponent has something to punish V-Create, the Victini becomes much less threatening.
What I was trying to say above through longwinded explanation was that Victini doesn't have the ability to just mindlessly click V-Create and win games, and that through offensive pressure it's really not hard to deal with and just becomes an A+ or S tier wallbreaker. Honestly, Victini is much less than broken in this metagame, especially considering how much better offense is in this meta, and offense doesn't have a whole lot of issues vs Victini. 100 speed isn't a ridiculous speed tier when facing offense, and Victini has a really crappy defensive typing, allowing it to be hit very hard by most pokemon commonly seen on offense. The teams that have issues with Victini are teams that aren't able to easily pressure it and keep up offensive momentum which give Victini issues, those teams being more defensively oriented balance teams and variants of stall.
Honestly, stall has some issues with Victini but not so much that it renders Stall useless- Semistall can run Pursuit Aero or Krook and can usually limit Victini to one kill versus it, which isn't too bad, and many of the same stall cores that worked pre-Tini still work with Victini. However, the issue that Victini poses to balance is much worse. One of the misconceptions in the "victini invalidates balance" argument is that balance wasn't already lackluster before victini was introduced, which is simply wrong. Ever since UU obtained Feraligatr and the new megas (mostly talking about mega Pidgeot) and Mamoswine, this tier has shifted to a much more offensively-dominated tier than ever before. In XY/ORAS as a whole Bulky Offense rules the meta, and it can't be more true than now, as BO deals with all of the huge threats that balance struggles with much better than any other playstyle. Unfortunately, balance cores are just entirely too weak to standard offensive cores these days, even if the balance player is very good at teambuilding- they are just too hammered by the stuff that offense uses in this stage of UU to be considered even a solid playstyle. Like Bouffalant said above, Victini is just the icing on the cake for balance, and the real issue for balance is trying to deal with pidg/gatr/mamo. Honestly, in terms of the dreaded "playstyle shift" that so many people have been referring to in this thread Victini doesn't really shift the metagame too much already, since this meta was already incredibly offensive (only a few people are actually able to use stall properly in this day and age, and obviously balance really struggles. offense is godlike right now, and victini doesn't really change that in a dynamic way like many people have said.) If Victini isn't broken (which I personally don't think it is) then there's no reason for it to be banned.
finally, there's one more thing I'd like to address which has been addressed before: teambuilding. Like YABO said above, Victini may force teams to run up to 2 checks to it because of its extraordinary wallbreaking prowess, but those checks aren't few and far between whatsoever or hard to fit on standard team structures these days: the most prominent of these is snorlax, which is already often used on balance and stall these days due to how well it deals with nidos, mega pidg and other strong special attackers and how well it serves as a wincon. Mega Ampharos is a great answer to Victini and is no short of very good in this metagame still dominated by fast, hard hitting flying types and bulky waters. Defensive Suicune has no real issue dealing with mixtini and it's a staple on balance and stall, and if it's bandtini then there are obviously a plethora of options to use on all playstyles (I think the consensus is that victini is the scariest when it can run so many different coverage options, but the loss in power has to be considered when talking about the differences between band/mixtini.) Most balance teams these days run Krook and/or Aero, both of whom can revenge kill Victini with either a STAB move or Pursuit. Salamence deals with Victini rather well considering only a portion are going to run Glaciate, and even then Victini has to win a speed tie (assuming it's offensive mence) to kill mence with glaciate before it's OHKOd by a STAB draco/eq/outrage. Honestly, some of the same things that have been good for months are fine at checking Victini, and saying that a top tier threat is centralizing seems rather ridiculous when the argument to back that up is that every team needs two counters to the thing: honestly, if you don't have two checks to an A+ or S rank mon aren't you going to get steamrolled by it, anyways? Honestly, Victini seems to fit itself into place as a top tier threat, but nothing about it seems banworthy. It doesn't put such a huge strain on teambuilding that it's banworthy, it doesn't force such a huge change in the viability of playstyles or how the metagame feels that it's banworthy, and its wallbreaking ability is not broken. Therefore, I'm saying:
FREETINI
The first and most important point I'm going to make is based on whether or not Victini is broken, and that is the opportunity cost that comes with Victini doing its job. The only reason that Victini hits as hard as it does is because of the 180 BP STAB move known as V-Create. However, there is a plethora of Pokemon that can revenge kill or deal with Victini after it has clicked V-Create, and many who can setup on Victini after it has clicked V-Create. Therefore, most of the raw "brokenness" of Victini comes from the fact that not only can it click a move that serves as a reliable nuke but also can use a whole lot of different, very strong moves which serve as brilliant coverage options. Energy Ball/Grass Knot, Focus Blast, Dazzling Gleam, Thunder/Bolt Strike, Glaciate and U-Turn are the most common and best moves Victini can run outside of V-Create, but in reality Victini will almost always run V-Create/Energy Ball or Grass Knot/Bolt Strike or Thunder/U-Turn or Glaciate. This is the most common charcoal/ebelt/LO set and all of these sets are revealed the minute Victini clicks a move- it's so incredibly easy to tell whether or not Victini is a mixed lure set or a CB set the minute it clicks a move, because of the damage differences. The thing about Victini is that it doesn't have a whole lot of statistical power, and all the power it has comes from the high BP of the main moves it uses- having a 180 BP physical STAB, a 130 BP physical coverage move and another 130 BP special STAB is quite frightening, but 100/100/100 attacking stats is quite average. If Victini decides to click V-Create vs a team with anything to take advantage of it (every team on suspect ladder) it forces its own team into difficult situations trying to deal with things like SD/DD Feraligatr, DD Salamence and Rain Dance Mega Swampert, all of which are more subjectively frightening against offense and balance than Victini is. The Victini user in question has to be much more careful about clicking V-Create than they did back in XY where there was almost nothing to punish V-Create spam, and this means that more often than not if they see something that could take advantage of V-Create they may simply U-Turn out or use one of their coverage moves- all of which don't deal significant damage and only make it an average UU pokemon. All of the power that fuels Victini comes from V-Create, and if the opponent has something to punish V-Create, the Victini becomes much less threatening.
What I was trying to say above through longwinded explanation was that Victini doesn't have the ability to just mindlessly click V-Create and win games, and that through offensive pressure it's really not hard to deal with and just becomes an A+ or S tier wallbreaker. Honestly, Victini is much less than broken in this metagame, especially considering how much better offense is in this meta, and offense doesn't have a whole lot of issues vs Victini. 100 speed isn't a ridiculous speed tier when facing offense, and Victini has a really crappy defensive typing, allowing it to be hit very hard by most pokemon commonly seen on offense. The teams that have issues with Victini are teams that aren't able to easily pressure it and keep up offensive momentum which give Victini issues, those teams being more defensively oriented balance teams and variants of stall.
Honestly, stall has some issues with Victini but not so much that it renders Stall useless- Semistall can run Pursuit Aero or Krook and can usually limit Victini to one kill versus it, which isn't too bad, and many of the same stall cores that worked pre-Tini still work with Victini. However, the issue that Victini poses to balance is much worse. One of the misconceptions in the "victini invalidates balance" argument is that balance wasn't already lackluster before victini was introduced, which is simply wrong. Ever since UU obtained Feraligatr and the new megas (mostly talking about mega Pidgeot) and Mamoswine, this tier has shifted to a much more offensively-dominated tier than ever before. In XY/ORAS as a whole Bulky Offense rules the meta, and it can't be more true than now, as BO deals with all of the huge threats that balance struggles with much better than any other playstyle. Unfortunately, balance cores are just entirely too weak to standard offensive cores these days, even if the balance player is very good at teambuilding- they are just too hammered by the stuff that offense uses in this stage of UU to be considered even a solid playstyle. Like Bouffalant said above, Victini is just the icing on the cake for balance, and the real issue for balance is trying to deal with pidg/gatr/mamo. Honestly, in terms of the dreaded "playstyle shift" that so many people have been referring to in this thread Victini doesn't really shift the metagame too much already, since this meta was already incredibly offensive (only a few people are actually able to use stall properly in this day and age, and obviously balance really struggles. offense is godlike right now, and victini doesn't really change that in a dynamic way like many people have said.) If Victini isn't broken (which I personally don't think it is) then there's no reason for it to be banned.
finally, there's one more thing I'd like to address which has been addressed before: teambuilding. Like YABO said above, Victini may force teams to run up to 2 checks to it because of its extraordinary wallbreaking prowess, but those checks aren't few and far between whatsoever or hard to fit on standard team structures these days: the most prominent of these is snorlax, which is already often used on balance and stall these days due to how well it deals with nidos, mega pidg and other strong special attackers and how well it serves as a wincon. Mega Ampharos is a great answer to Victini and is no short of very good in this metagame still dominated by fast, hard hitting flying types and bulky waters. Defensive Suicune has no real issue dealing with mixtini and it's a staple on balance and stall, and if it's bandtini then there are obviously a plethora of options to use on all playstyles (I think the consensus is that victini is the scariest when it can run so many different coverage options, but the loss in power has to be considered when talking about the differences between band/mixtini.) Most balance teams these days run Krook and/or Aero, both of whom can revenge kill Victini with either a STAB move or Pursuit. Salamence deals with Victini rather well considering only a portion are going to run Glaciate, and even then Victini has to win a speed tie (assuming it's offensive mence) to kill mence with glaciate before it's OHKOd by a STAB draco/eq/outrage. Honestly, some of the same things that have been good for months are fine at checking Victini, and saying that a top tier threat is centralizing seems rather ridiculous when the argument to back that up is that every team needs two counters to the thing: honestly, if you don't have two checks to an A+ or S rank mon aren't you going to get steamrolled by it, anyways? Honestly, Victini seems to fit itself into place as a top tier threat, but nothing about it seems banworthy. It doesn't put such a huge strain on teambuilding that it's banworthy, it doesn't force such a huge change in the viability of playstyles or how the metagame feels that it's banworthy, and its wallbreaking ability is not broken. Therefore, I'm saying:
FREETINI
After playing some matches on the ladder, i was able to see that a lot of people have improved in many ways on how to use Victini, maybe even using better that it was during XY UU.
Mixed sets became a lot more used during this suspect ladder, so it’s common to worry with the possibility of dealing with Mixed sets, along with Choiced sets, making it even harder harder to scout / switch-in reliably. But ORAS UU introduced / popularizated (even more) a lot of mons that can pressure Victini, like Salamence, Aerodactyl, Mega Swampert, along with Bulky-waters like Swampert and Suicune, but it isn't close to my reason. I see a lot of interesting arguments saying that Victini has almost zero hard counters because of its flexible moveset, but for me, even though Victini doesn’t, theorically, have any hard counters, the combination of specific Pokémon in various teambuildings can be pretty useful to cover it. For example, some Balanced teams can combine the use of a Bulky water-type + Dragon-type to cover the majority of Victini’s sets, considering that Water-types can switch-in “comfortably” in Choiced sets, and stuff like Hydreigon, even hating U-Turn, can scout incoming moves for Bulky-waters, this type of core can work pretty well, even though it sounds strange to put in practice. Offensive teams can explore even more options thanks to its dynamic nature, disallowing Victini to cause a lot of problems, even with Scarfed sets, which some mons can pick the momentum from it (like Pursuit trapping or making a set-up move on a locked V-Create -1 on its both defenses).
But the focus of it, is the V-Create Spam. Even with the drawbacks mentioned above, V-Create is the reason that makes Victini so threatening, forcing a lot of risky situations for the opponent thanks to it, because when you see Victini in a 1v1 scenario, even with scouts, you need to think twice before making a move, as he can HIT stuff really hard, regaining momentum. For example, a scenario where Victini sees a Bulky-water like Suicune or Swampert in a Team Preview, it can just Trick or U-Turn (or attack right away with mixed sets obv., which are simiarly applied to his common Fire-resists, like Salamence, Arcanine, etc), but it can potentially KILL something of your team if you doesn't switch to a specific check. Team support is something that makes Tini even more threatning, like VoltTurn cores and Toxic Spikes support, for example. Even with Victini not beating everything clicking V-Create, it has almost a zero opportunity cost with his positive traits, specially against Balanced teams.
For these reasons, i think that Victini is too good for the tier, and it should be banned from UU.
Mixed sets became a lot more used during this suspect ladder, so it’s common to worry with the possibility of dealing with Mixed sets, along with Choiced sets, making it even harder harder to scout / switch-in reliably. But ORAS UU introduced / popularizated (even more) a lot of mons that can pressure Victini, like Salamence, Aerodactyl, Mega Swampert, along with Bulky-waters like Swampert and Suicune, but it isn't close to my reason. I see a lot of interesting arguments saying that Victini has almost zero hard counters because of its flexible moveset, but for me, even though Victini doesn’t, theorically, have any hard counters, the combination of specific Pokémon in various teambuildings can be pretty useful to cover it. For example, some Balanced teams can combine the use of a Bulky water-type + Dragon-type to cover the majority of Victini’s sets, considering that Water-types can switch-in “comfortably” in Choiced sets, and stuff like Hydreigon, even hating U-Turn, can scout incoming moves for Bulky-waters, this type of core can work pretty well, even though it sounds strange to put in practice. Offensive teams can explore even more options thanks to its dynamic nature, disallowing Victini to cause a lot of problems, even with Scarfed sets, which some mons can pick the momentum from it (like Pursuit trapping or making a set-up move on a locked V-Create -1 on its both defenses).
But the focus of it, is the V-Create Spam. Even with the drawbacks mentioned above, V-Create is the reason that makes Victini so threatening, forcing a lot of risky situations for the opponent thanks to it, because when you see Victini in a 1v1 scenario, even with scouts, you need to think twice before making a move, as he can HIT stuff really hard, regaining momentum. For example, a scenario where Victini sees a Bulky-water like Suicune or Swampert in a Team Preview, it can just Trick or U-Turn (or attack right away with mixed sets obv., which are simiarly applied to his common Fire-resists, like Salamence, Arcanine, etc), but it can potentially KILL something of your team if you doesn't switch to a specific check. Team support is something that makes Tini even more threatning, like VoltTurn cores and Toxic Spikes support, for example. Even with Victini not beating everything clicking V-Create, it has almost a zero opportunity cost with his positive traits, specially against Balanced teams.
For these reasons, i think that Victini is too good for the tier, and it should be banned from UU.
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After around 80 battles on the suspect I am still going to stand by my opinion and say that this mon is not broken. I used Heavy offense and throughout the whole journey with a life orb mixtini on my side and I have to say that while it had its moments, when I started getting higher and higher on the ladder, it came up small sometimes. I'd have to say my mamoswine put in a ton more work then my victini did. Victini is a mon that is very very easily theorymon'd on. With its extensive coverage it can be said to blast through any of its potential checks. Lol.
First question I'll discuss is, Does victini restrict teambuilding? No, We can all use the same mons that normally fit on balance teams to still check victini. Common balance cores that consist of mons like cresselia, snorlax, salamance, mega amph, hydreigon and mega aero to check offense all still are used to check victini. All of these mons are in the A ranks and S ranks respectively. Forcing you to run A rank mons does not make it restrict teambuilding. It certainly does not restrict offense in terms of teambuilding either as offensively checking victini is an extremely good way of checking it as it provides tini with almost no opportunities to switch in safely unless it is coming in off of a sack. And with offense having a plethora of speedy hard hitters victini can be forced out easily as well or even trapped.
Does victini make balance unviable? This is probably the biggest factor right here and I'm still going to have have to say no it doesn't make balance unviable. As stated about the teambuilding question, The same balance mons that we have been using in the past still check victini. All of these mons are also in the A ranks so once again, it's not like the mons you have to use on balance to check it are bad. Balance can pair or make a core of good potential checks that can effectively check victini and still be able to deal with other threats because the same mons we use to check other threats can be used to check victini as well. That being said, yea you could say it's annoying for balance but annoying does not mean broken and it certainly doesn't make it unviable. The theorymoning makes it sound like balance has zero chance of winning but there was not a single incident where I saw balance extremely struggle victini unless it was some weird core that didn't check any of uu's threats at all which was mainly on the lower ladder.
As far as the suspect went, people did not even really use victini all that much, instead I saw sash 4 attacks infernape (twice lol). As for using it myself, like I said my mamoswine acted as a better wall breaker that victini most of the time and while victini did work against teams that were just completely unprepared for it, the teams that knew how to effectively scout it and limit its opportunities made tini look very small at times. You can say all you want about mixtini on paper but when it boils down to it, it just is not as good as all the theorymoning says it is. Stall really just does not care abuot victini at all either. The choiced sets are easily walled and the life orb sets can be broken down very easily and the ebelt sets just dont have the power to break through stall. I just wish as well people did not let the theorymoning get to their heads as well because some of the people I've seen for the pro ban arguments just automatically assumed it would be broken and did not let anything change their mons nor did they go into the suspect with an open mind.
FREE VICTINI
First question I'll discuss is, Does victini restrict teambuilding? No, We can all use the same mons that normally fit on balance teams to still check victini. Common balance cores that consist of mons like cresselia, snorlax, salamance, mega amph, hydreigon and mega aero to check offense all still are used to check victini. All of these mons are in the A ranks and S ranks respectively. Forcing you to run A rank mons does not make it restrict teambuilding. It certainly does not restrict offense in terms of teambuilding either as offensively checking victini is an extremely good way of checking it as it provides tini with almost no opportunities to switch in safely unless it is coming in off of a sack. And with offense having a plethora of speedy hard hitters victini can be forced out easily as well or even trapped.
Does victini make balance unviable? This is probably the biggest factor right here and I'm still going to have have to say no it doesn't make balance unviable. As stated about the teambuilding question, The same balance mons that we have been using in the past still check victini. All of these mons are also in the A ranks so once again, it's not like the mons you have to use on balance to check it are bad. Balance can pair or make a core of good potential checks that can effectively check victini and still be able to deal with other threats because the same mons we use to check other threats can be used to check victini as well. That being said, yea you could say it's annoying for balance but annoying does not mean broken and it certainly doesn't make it unviable. The theorymoning makes it sound like balance has zero chance of winning but there was not a single incident where I saw balance extremely struggle victini unless it was some weird core that didn't check any of uu's threats at all which was mainly on the lower ladder.
As far as the suspect went, people did not even really use victini all that much, instead I saw sash 4 attacks infernape (twice lol). As for using it myself, like I said my mamoswine acted as a better wall breaker that victini most of the time and while victini did work against teams that were just completely unprepared for it, the teams that knew how to effectively scout it and limit its opportunities made tini look very small at times. You can say all you want about mixtini on paper but when it boils down to it, it just is not as good as all the theorymoning says it is. Stall really just does not care abuot victini at all either. The choiced sets are easily walled and the life orb sets can be broken down very easily and the ebelt sets just dont have the power to break through stall. I just wish as well people did not let the theorymoning get to their heads as well because some of the people I've seen for the pro ban arguments just automatically assumed it would be broken and did not let anything change their mons nor did they go into the suspect with an open mind.
FREE VICTINI
I thought that Victini wasn't worthy of going to BL, but after some more laddering, I'm beginning to think it should be banned. The fact that you need at least one hard counter and one soft check to handle Victini is not healthy for the metagame. Even with the obvious downsides of using Victini, they do not offset how overcentralizing it is as you have to pray that your opponent runs the wrong variant of Victini depending on your type of team. Balance teams in particular suffer massively from Victini being allowed. As when you try to counter Victini, you are weak to something else like SD Feraligatr, Mega Aero, Heracross, and much more. It's not broken, but it heavily affects teambuilding.
BAN VICTINI
Ahhh all the mixed opinions I like. Finally a suspect where one sides supporters arentt complete idiots (see: serperior) both sides have brought up some very solid arguments, and when alls said and done I think this test will come down to players opinion. As for mine well I've been laddering in secret for a while now (just shy of reqs BC lazy, hs graduation etc) and after playing with a few cute tini sets and playing against quite a few sets (including full special, banded, scarf, mixed ebelt, mixed lo, trick room, and stall breaker) and when all of that is said in done, I fucking hate this tier with tini in it. As many people have already stated this tier is already infected with potentially broken/over centralizing Mons that need to go and tini is just making all of this even fucking worse. UU was a little gross before tini but with it in the tier I've felt very little motivation to touch this tier and have laddered very sparingly lol anyway to sum it up fuck tini fuck gatr fuck pidg etc etc etc
n_n
Edit: on a phone BTW so I'm not cleaning this post up
n_n
Edit: on a phone BTW so I'm not cleaning this post up
Similarly to R0ady I must say that this is a really great suspect test, it's not one-sided and both sides have brought great arguments. As for me, I am definitely pro-ban.
I acknowledge that Victini is not broken, as has been thoroughly explained by others here, so I won't rehash that point. I also acknowledge that the Pokemon that check Victini are already very good in the metagame, such as Snorlax and Mega Aerodactyl. However, I do think it is erroneous to say that Victini doesn't restrict teambuilding (at least for Balance), because while the answers to Tini are already good and common, these Pokemon become close to mandatory. Before the retest, in order to check the physical fire types in the tier (Entei/Darm), Balance teams would need to bring one of the Victini answers (not Pursuiters obviously), or one of the many bulky waters. With Tini, this pool of fire checks is much smaller since none of the waters bar Suicune (which, by the way, is still 2HKOd by Life Orb Bolt Strike) can actually switch into Victini reliably.
Now this in and of itself wouldn't be too bad, except that Balance is already suffocated between Gatr/Mamo/Pidg and all the other threats, meaning Balance becomes if not unviable then very difficult to build without being pigeonholed into a very small number of combinations of 'mons. Slate. argues that because Balance is already weak before the Victini retest, and because it's not the most troubling threat to Balance, then it's not banworthy. However, not all banworthy Pokemon are equally so. There have been many calls for Feraligatr or Pidgeotite suspects, so just because Victini is perhaps less of a problem than these, it certainly does not mean Victini itself can't be banworthy.
Finally, Victini may not take much away from the meta, but it adds absolutely nothing besides another powerful wallbreaker which heavily troubles Balance and doesn't bother Offense all that much. Why is it a good thing to buff the strongest playstyle pre-Tini and weaken one which didn't need weakening? If Balance (or any playstyle) is doing poorly, it doesn't justify adding another threat which amplifies such a state. The point of suspects and the tiering process as a whole is to create metagames where all playstyles are as viable as possible. Adding Victini to the meta only furthers us from this goal, because buffing Offense and weakening more defensive playstyles (especially Balance) only serves to increase the unbalance in the current UU meta.
In sum, Victini is unhealthy for the UU metagame because it increases the offensive polarization of the tier, further weakens already weak playstyles, and in return adds practically nothing to the metagame.
Ban Victini
I acknowledge that Victini is not broken, as has been thoroughly explained by others here, so I won't rehash that point. I also acknowledge that the Pokemon that check Victini are already very good in the metagame, such as Snorlax and Mega Aerodactyl. However, I do think it is erroneous to say that Victini doesn't restrict teambuilding (at least for Balance), because while the answers to Tini are already good and common, these Pokemon become close to mandatory. Before the retest, in order to check the physical fire types in the tier (Entei/Darm), Balance teams would need to bring one of the Victini answers (not Pursuiters obviously), or one of the many bulky waters. With Tini, this pool of fire checks is much smaller since none of the waters bar Suicune (which, by the way, is still 2HKOd by Life Orb Bolt Strike) can actually switch into Victini reliably.
Now this in and of itself wouldn't be too bad, except that Balance is already suffocated between Gatr/Mamo/Pidg and all the other threats, meaning Balance becomes if not unviable then very difficult to build without being pigeonholed into a very small number of combinations of 'mons. Slate. argues that because Balance is already weak before the Victini retest, and because it's not the most troubling threat to Balance, then it's not banworthy. However, not all banworthy Pokemon are equally so. There have been many calls for Feraligatr or Pidgeotite suspects, so just because Victini is perhaps less of a problem than these, it certainly does not mean Victini itself can't be banworthy.
Finally, Victini may not take much away from the meta, but it adds absolutely nothing besides another powerful wallbreaker which heavily troubles Balance and doesn't bother Offense all that much. Why is it a good thing to buff the strongest playstyle pre-Tini and weaken one which didn't need weakening? If Balance (or any playstyle) is doing poorly, it doesn't justify adding another threat which amplifies such a state. The point of suspects and the tiering process as a whole is to create metagames where all playstyles are as viable as possible. Adding Victini to the meta only furthers us from this goal, because buffing Offense and weakening more defensive playstyles (especially Balance) only serves to increase the unbalance in the current UU meta.
In sum, Victini is unhealthy for the UU metagame because it increases the offensive polarization of the tier, further weakens already weak playstyles, and in return adds practically nothing to the metagame.
Ban Victini
If ever I had a tough letter to write, this is it. My challenge is to convince you that there doesn't seem to be much we can do about this. Although my approach may appear a bit pedantic, by setting some generative point of view against a structural-taxonomical point of view or vice versa, I intend to argue that Victini's support for freedom of speech extends only to those who agree with it. That is, it believes in “free speech for me but not for thee”. I guess that's not too surprising when one considers that Victini is secretly planning to threaten the common good. I realize that that may sound rather conspiratorial and far-fetched to most people, which is why you need to understand that Victini's new definition of “phenolsulphonephthalein” is unquestionably in disagreement with its putrid, stupid sottises. That's the sort of statement that some people profess is morally crippled but which I believe is merely a statement of fact. And it's a statement that needs to be made because if we let Victini scorn and abjure reason, then greed, corruption, and parochialism will characterize the government. Oppressive measures will be directed against citizens. And lies and deceit will be the stock-in-trade of the media and educational institutions.
Even Victini's idolators don't care much for its political objectives; they simply wish to associate with other sordid, fastuous scofflaws and force us to experience the full spectrum of the Victini Rainbow of Zabernism. Victini screams and cries whenever it's prevented from providing foolish fast-buck artists with a milieu in which they can convince people that their peers are already riding the Victini bandwagon and will think ill of them if they don't climb aboard, too. I avow that if it stopped acting like such a big baby, maybe then it'd see that I have no doubt that it will fuel inquisitions quicker than you can double-check the spelling of “dendrochronological”. It'll probably do so under the pretense of “humanitarian intervention” or some other equally inapposite appellation, but the reality is that if we don't remove the Victini threat now, it will bite us in our backside one day. What Victini is incapable of seeing is that its most delirious tactic is to fabricate a phony war between abusive mobocrats and pestilential, disagreeable conspiracy theorists. This way, Victini can subjugate both groups into deluding and often robbing those rendered vulnerable and susceptible to its snares because of poverty, illness, or ignorance. I undoubtedly don't want that to happen, which is why I'm telling you that life is a search for the true, the good, and the beautiful. It is not, as Victini professes, an excuse to assuage the hungers of its jackals with servings of fresh scapegoats.
It may seem obvious, but if it were up to Victini, we'd all be grazing contentedly in the pasture of denominationalism right now. We'd be entirely unaware of the fact that it wins people over to its paternalism squad by convincing them that it can be trusted to judge the rest of the world from a unique perch of pure wisdom. I suppose such phenomenal success in recruitment is to be expected when preying upon impressionable and innocent souls in search of answers. I can scarcely imagine the difficulty such people will encounter when they eventually learn that many years ago, I came to the then-tentative conclusion that Victini has long served as a cheerleader for tribalism. While there are honestly exceptions to that rule, all these years later my conclusion is no longer tentative. In particular, I intend to cast an unfamiliar ray of sunshine over the puerile, incompetent landscape of Victini's effusions. That's the path that I have chosen. It's truly not an easy path, but then again, Victini's latest “revelation” (really, hallucination) is that we can change the truth if we don't like it the way it is. Need I say more? I don't think so, but this I will say: Honest people will admit that Victini regards itself as both omniscient and omnicompetent, fully qualified to put any intellectual discipline in the world in its place. Concerned people are not afraid to lead Victini to resipiscence. And sensible people know that Victini repeats the term “succinylsulphathiazole” over and over again in everything it writes. Is this repetition part of some new drinking game, or is Victini merely trying to confuse us into believing that the laws of nature don't apply to it? I wish I had a lot more time to answer that question. Unfortunately, the following comment will have to suffice: Victini's occasional demonstrations of benevolence are not genuine. Nor are its promises. In fact, we have to set an example. If we do, others will follow, and soon everyone will be hunting down not only the perpetrators of fetishism but also all of the proponents of that unscrupulous philosophy. This is an encouraging prospect, especially given that I don't know what makes Victini think that it is the one who will lead us to our great shining future. Maybe it's been sipping cuckoo juice. The fact of the matter is that I should note that Victini focuses on feelings rather than facts. Sure, it attempts to twist and distort facts to justify its feelings, but that just goes to show that Victini needs to realize that it's not special. It's not a beautiful or unique snowflake. It's just another manipulative hermit who wants to break down our communities.
In general, Victini is deeply involved emotionally in its attack on truth and reality. Sure, there are exceptions, but it would be great if all of us could provide people with opportunities to grow, develop, and exercise their potential as human beings. In the end, however, money talks and you-know-what walks. Perhaps that truism also explains why Victini likes to quote all of the saccharine, sticky moralisms about “human rights” and the evils of unilateralism. But as soon as we stop paying attention, it invariably instructs its followers to cultivate the purest breed of irresponsibility. Then, when someone notices, the pattern repeats from the beginning. Though this game may seem perverse beyond belief to any sane individual it makes perfect sense in light of Victini's indelicate personal attacks. A recent United Nations report on human-rights abuses found that Victini constantly evades or violates legislation of which it disapproves. The devastating findings of this report should not be ignored. In particular, I want to highlight the report's observation that Victini has said that its phalanx of irritating, niddering skites is looking out for our best interests. Furthermore, the language Victini used to say that demonstrates desperadoism and maybe the onset of early senility.
Conclaves of Victini's provocateurs have all the dissent found in a North Korean communist party meeting. That's why no one there will ever admit that I believe I have found my calling. My calling is to reinforce what is best in people. And just let it try and stop me. Ceteris paribus, I'd rather have Victini cause a marked deterioration in our literature, amusements, and social conduct than pamper puzzleheaded twerps. Why? Because Victini wants us to emulate the White Queen from Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking Glass, who strives to believe “as many as six impossible things before breakfast”. Then again, even the White Queen would have trouble believing that Victini is an irreplaceable shaman who can cure the sick, divine the hidden, and control events. I prefer to believe things that my experience tells me are true, such as that we must soon make one of the most momentous decisions in history. We must decide whether to let Victini turn the trickle of expansionism into a tidal wave or, alternatively, whether we should hold it to account for planting strife and chaos. Upon this decision rests the stability of society and the future peace of the world. My view on this decision is that Victini often remarks that you and I are objects for it to use then casually throw away and forget like old newsprint that's performed its duty catching bird droppings. That's one of those neat little subreptions that its high-handed cringers employ to deceive themselves. The truth is that my advice to you is that whenever you find yourself establishing clear, justifiable definitions of irreligionism and yahooism so that one can defend a decision to take action when Victini's spinmeisters substitute breast-beating and schwarmerei for action and honest debate it is important to avoid the pitfall of elitism. Fortunately, that's not too hard to do if you always bear in mind the fact that peddling faddism to all comers is less wise than giving free amphetamines to school children, although it's probably just as profitable for Victini. In my opinion, grenades and flamethrowers would do less damage, though. The point is that I'm not afraid of Victini. However, I am concerned that it has spent untold hours trying to fight with spiritual weapons that are as soulless as they are pharisaical. During that time, did it ever once occur to it that I accept the call to act against injustice, whether it concerns drunk driving, domestic violence, or even Trotskyism? After days of agonized pondering and reflection I finally came to the conclusion that prætorianism is dangerous. Its bloody-minded version of it is doubly so. Although I've spent most of this letter criticizing Victini, let me end by stating simply that Victini's annunciations are the perfect delivery system for unsympathetic, balmy behavior. In conclusion, BAN VICTINI.
Even Victini's idolators don't care much for its political objectives; they simply wish to associate with other sordid, fastuous scofflaws and force us to experience the full spectrum of the Victini Rainbow of Zabernism. Victini screams and cries whenever it's prevented from providing foolish fast-buck artists with a milieu in which they can convince people that their peers are already riding the Victini bandwagon and will think ill of them if they don't climb aboard, too. I avow that if it stopped acting like such a big baby, maybe then it'd see that I have no doubt that it will fuel inquisitions quicker than you can double-check the spelling of “dendrochronological”. It'll probably do so under the pretense of “humanitarian intervention” or some other equally inapposite appellation, but the reality is that if we don't remove the Victini threat now, it will bite us in our backside one day. What Victini is incapable of seeing is that its most delirious tactic is to fabricate a phony war between abusive mobocrats and pestilential, disagreeable conspiracy theorists. This way, Victini can subjugate both groups into deluding and often robbing those rendered vulnerable and susceptible to its snares because of poverty, illness, or ignorance. I undoubtedly don't want that to happen, which is why I'm telling you that life is a search for the true, the good, and the beautiful. It is not, as Victini professes, an excuse to assuage the hungers of its jackals with servings of fresh scapegoats.
It may seem obvious, but if it were up to Victini, we'd all be grazing contentedly in the pasture of denominationalism right now. We'd be entirely unaware of the fact that it wins people over to its paternalism squad by convincing them that it can be trusted to judge the rest of the world from a unique perch of pure wisdom. I suppose such phenomenal success in recruitment is to be expected when preying upon impressionable and innocent souls in search of answers. I can scarcely imagine the difficulty such people will encounter when they eventually learn that many years ago, I came to the then-tentative conclusion that Victini has long served as a cheerleader for tribalism. While there are honestly exceptions to that rule, all these years later my conclusion is no longer tentative. In particular, I intend to cast an unfamiliar ray of sunshine over the puerile, incompetent landscape of Victini's effusions. That's the path that I have chosen. It's truly not an easy path, but then again, Victini's latest “revelation” (really, hallucination) is that we can change the truth if we don't like it the way it is. Need I say more? I don't think so, but this I will say: Honest people will admit that Victini regards itself as both omniscient and omnicompetent, fully qualified to put any intellectual discipline in the world in its place. Concerned people are not afraid to lead Victini to resipiscence. And sensible people know that Victini repeats the term “succinylsulphathiazole” over and over again in everything it writes. Is this repetition part of some new drinking game, or is Victini merely trying to confuse us into believing that the laws of nature don't apply to it? I wish I had a lot more time to answer that question. Unfortunately, the following comment will have to suffice: Victini's occasional demonstrations of benevolence are not genuine. Nor are its promises. In fact, we have to set an example. If we do, others will follow, and soon everyone will be hunting down not only the perpetrators of fetishism but also all of the proponents of that unscrupulous philosophy. This is an encouraging prospect, especially given that I don't know what makes Victini think that it is the one who will lead us to our great shining future. Maybe it's been sipping cuckoo juice. The fact of the matter is that I should note that Victini focuses on feelings rather than facts. Sure, it attempts to twist and distort facts to justify its feelings, but that just goes to show that Victini needs to realize that it's not special. It's not a beautiful or unique snowflake. It's just another manipulative hermit who wants to break down our communities.
In general, Victini is deeply involved emotionally in its attack on truth and reality. Sure, there are exceptions, but it would be great if all of us could provide people with opportunities to grow, develop, and exercise their potential as human beings. In the end, however, money talks and you-know-what walks. Perhaps that truism also explains why Victini likes to quote all of the saccharine, sticky moralisms about “human rights” and the evils of unilateralism. But as soon as we stop paying attention, it invariably instructs its followers to cultivate the purest breed of irresponsibility. Then, when someone notices, the pattern repeats from the beginning. Though this game may seem perverse beyond belief to any sane individual it makes perfect sense in light of Victini's indelicate personal attacks. A recent United Nations report on human-rights abuses found that Victini constantly evades or violates legislation of which it disapproves. The devastating findings of this report should not be ignored. In particular, I want to highlight the report's observation that Victini has said that its phalanx of irritating, niddering skites is looking out for our best interests. Furthermore, the language Victini used to say that demonstrates desperadoism and maybe the onset of early senility.
Conclaves of Victini's provocateurs have all the dissent found in a North Korean communist party meeting. That's why no one there will ever admit that I believe I have found my calling. My calling is to reinforce what is best in people. And just let it try and stop me. Ceteris paribus, I'd rather have Victini cause a marked deterioration in our literature, amusements, and social conduct than pamper puzzleheaded twerps. Why? Because Victini wants us to emulate the White Queen from Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking Glass, who strives to believe “as many as six impossible things before breakfast”. Then again, even the White Queen would have trouble believing that Victini is an irreplaceable shaman who can cure the sick, divine the hidden, and control events. I prefer to believe things that my experience tells me are true, such as that we must soon make one of the most momentous decisions in history. We must decide whether to let Victini turn the trickle of expansionism into a tidal wave or, alternatively, whether we should hold it to account for planting strife and chaos. Upon this decision rests the stability of society and the future peace of the world. My view on this decision is that Victini often remarks that you and I are objects for it to use then casually throw away and forget like old newsprint that's performed its duty catching bird droppings. That's one of those neat little subreptions that its high-handed cringers employ to deceive themselves. The truth is that my advice to you is that whenever you find yourself establishing clear, justifiable definitions of irreligionism and yahooism so that one can defend a decision to take action when Victini's spinmeisters substitute breast-beating and schwarmerei for action and honest debate it is important to avoid the pitfall of elitism. Fortunately, that's not too hard to do if you always bear in mind the fact that peddling faddism to all comers is less wise than giving free amphetamines to school children, although it's probably just as profitable for Victini. In my opinion, grenades and flamethrowers would do less damage, though. The point is that I'm not afraid of Victini. However, I am concerned that it has spent untold hours trying to fight with spiritual weapons that are as soulless as they are pharisaical. During that time, did it ever once occur to it that I accept the call to act against injustice, whether it concerns drunk driving, domestic violence, or even Trotskyism? After days of agonized pondering and reflection I finally came to the conclusion that prætorianism is dangerous. Its bloody-minded version of it is doubly so. Although I've spent most of this letter criticizing Victini, let me end by stating simply that Victini's annunciations are the perfect delivery system for unsympathetic, balmy behavior. In conclusion, BAN VICTINI.
did you not see the uupl thread orrrr....
Once again I am going to say in regards to the argument where "if you don't have at least 2 Tini checks you are screwed." The teams that will not be carrying at least 2 pokemon to check Tini are most likely going to be offensive builds. OFFENSIVELY CHECKING IT IS A GOOD WAY OF DEALING WITH IT. These teams without immediate Tini checks are going to be your offense of the meta. Offense has a good ability to sustain rocks and give Tini almost no opportunities to get in unless it comes off of a sack. Not having immediate Tini checks is not necessarily a bad thing
hit x on all your games you should be fine when dealing with tini ^_^ lmao js
Yeah, I mean a lot of mons don't have switchins/need specific preparation for. Shit, Mamo with two layers of hazards has pretty much no switch ins as Cune is 2hko'd. Maybe pdef Zong? It's like people don't realize that there will always be a best mon in a tier (and id contend tini isn't even it tbh).
When the Victini test was announced the amount of negativity and literal cries of brokenness before even testing (even by people that admitted to not playing with it while it was legal) was just kinda sad. If you think it's broken, especially after the test that's fine but the complete lack of objectivity and closed mindedness is alarming.
When the Victini test was announced the amount of negativity and literal cries of brokenness before even testing (even by people that admitted to not playing with it while it was legal) was just kinda sad. If you think it's broken, especially after the test that's fine but the complete lack of objectivity and closed mindedness is alarming.
I must say I am kinda disappointed with the suspect test. I believe I've played around 60 games to obtain reqs and I literally faced like 5 or 6 victini, most of them actually the mixed variant which is cool. This leaves somewhat of a void when it comes to evaluate the quality of the pokemon being suspected. The suspect test is supposed to give a players a general idea of how good, average or bad a pokemon is and without the use of the pkm and ,therefore, lack of empirical evidence, it becomes quite difficult to clearly see the pkm impact in the tier.
While I have no fixed idea about unbanning victini or not, I am definitly more inclined to keep it banned. The problem I see with tini is that it is way too difficult to play around due to V-create. V-create is a freaking nuke that obliterates preety much anything bar a bulky water or resistance with intimidate backup, such as arcanine. Along with this move, victini can run something other offensive fire types would wish for: insane coverage in grass knot/energy ball, thunder/bolt strike, psychic and even glaciate.
For instance a set consisting of V-create, energy ball, glaciate and bolt strike/psychic pretty much invalidates all of the supposed checks to it. It has no drawbacks. CB is also a good set for instant power that can devastate teams not prepared for it, but i feel like most balanced and stall teams are relativily well prepared for this and offense can use a tini locked into VC into a free switch to a wallbreaker(there a lot of them atm), a pursuit trapper or even attempt a sweep with tyrantrum or gatr.
Mixed victini is not supposed to completly surprise the opponent. He knows it can easily be a mixed variant but the thing is, what can he do to stop it? You can't scout vs victini because there is a bomb named V-create ready to roast your ass in the process. Even if you have the common CB victini check like swampert or fat mence, even if you believe tini will have energy ball or glaciate you are not able to play around it.
Victini's arrival will only make offense stronger which, from what i've seen, it's becoming too overloaded with terrifying breakers and i dont think we need tini to join mamoswine, feraligator, heracross and all that good stuff.
So, i think victini should probably stay BL since it is a pokemon with no drawbacks vs balanced or stall and that does decently well vs offense, while at the same time buffing it even more.
While I have no fixed idea about unbanning victini or not, I am definitly more inclined to keep it banned. The problem I see with tini is that it is way too difficult to play around due to V-create. V-create is a freaking nuke that obliterates preety much anything bar a bulky water or resistance with intimidate backup, such as arcanine. Along with this move, victini can run something other offensive fire types would wish for: insane coverage in grass knot/energy ball, thunder/bolt strike, psychic and even glaciate.
For instance a set consisting of V-create, energy ball, glaciate and bolt strike/psychic pretty much invalidates all of the supposed checks to it. It has no drawbacks. CB is also a good set for instant power that can devastate teams not prepared for it, but i feel like most balanced and stall teams are relativily well prepared for this and offense can use a tini locked into VC into a free switch to a wallbreaker(there a lot of them atm), a pursuit trapper or even attempt a sweep with tyrantrum or gatr.
Mixed victini is not supposed to completly surprise the opponent. He knows it can easily be a mixed variant but the thing is, what can he do to stop it? You can't scout vs victini because there is a bomb named V-create ready to roast your ass in the process. Even if you have the common CB victini check like swampert or fat mence, even if you believe tini will have energy ball or glaciate you are not able to play around it.
Victini's arrival will only make offense stronger which, from what i've seen, it's becoming too overloaded with terrifying breakers and i dont think we need tini to join mamoswine, feraligator, heracross and all that good stuff.
So, i think victini should probably stay BL since it is a pokemon with no drawbacks vs balanced or stall and that does decently well vs offense, while at the same time buffing it even more.
Although I am still struggling on the ladder, I believe it is time for me to share my thoughts on this particularly interesting suspect test.
During many games on the ladder, like many other players, I have seen little to none Victins. In regards to that, almost all of the teams I have seen have been overpreparing for it in the form. That makes it very hard to judge whether or not it is broken. I believe that most players are bandwagoning with the pro-ban side and not actually putting their mind to it. On paper and in theory, Victini is blatantly overpowered and broken. But in practice, it proves imo to be a different matter entirely; Victini is checked by a lot of offensive threats, like Entei, (126 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Entei: 125-147 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO) who then proceeds to OKHO with Stone Edge, Chandelure, who absorbs with Flash Fire. Many faster threats, like M-Pidgeot and M-Absol at +2 can KO Victini with ease. Furthermore, Victini's weakness to rocks adds to some other mons to net KO's on it. Mixtini is the best set imo, and after testing, many players seem to predict with ease the exact coverage moves I use. I often found myself hesitating to click V-Create because the opponent had mons like Krook who could switch in and trap me. That, to me, indicates that it is not broken. Although I will most likely not achieve reqs, if I will, I will be voting No Ban.
Oh well. Just my thoughts.
During many games on the ladder, like many other players, I have seen little to none Victins. In regards to that, almost all of the teams I have seen have been overpreparing for it in the form. That makes it very hard to judge whether or not it is broken. I believe that most players are bandwagoning with the pro-ban side and not actually putting their mind to it. On paper and in theory, Victini is blatantly overpowered and broken. But in practice, it proves imo to be a different matter entirely; Victini is checked by a lot of offensive threats, like Entei, (126 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Entei: 125-147 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO) who then proceeds to OKHO with Stone Edge, Chandelure, who absorbs with Flash Fire. Many faster threats, like M-Pidgeot and M-Absol at +2 can KO Victini with ease. Furthermore, Victini's weakness to rocks adds to some other mons to net KO's on it. Mixtini is the best set imo, and after testing, many players seem to predict with ease the exact coverage moves I use. I often found myself hesitating to click V-Create because the opponent had mons like Krook who could switch in and trap me. That, to me, indicates that it is not broken. Although I will most likely not achieve reqs, if I will, I will be voting No Ban.
Oh well. Just my thoughts.
- Status