np: ORAS UU Stage 4 - Go with the Flow

[Serperior for Uber]

So I just wanted to comment on the speed tier influence that Hoopa may (or may not) have depending on how relevant it becomes.
I am using Timid Hoopa as it it outspeeds a lot of relevant threats which is a lot more important than the power boost.
Crobat should run max speed (252+) as it outspeeds +1 Hoopa by one point. (Hoopa getting +1 by either salac or scarf)
Mandibuzz should run 176+ for Hoopa (If you are using Mandibuzz as your hoopa counter it needs this speed otherwise it gets OHKOed after a +2 Focus Blast w/ Life Orb)
Knock off Tentacruel should run 108 speed. Alternatively, it can run just the standard 24 for modest hoopa.
All Chandelures should be Timid
That bulky Maero spread should run 232+ speed for +1 Hoopa. I think it used to creep mega-pidgeot once upon a time.

Now all these speed creeps may not be worth it considering you will lose a little to a lot of bulk, especially in the case of Mandibuzz, but it may be worth considering if you are really Hoopa weak

 

[Sam]

Even bulkier Maero should be running max speed. There's really no point in running any Maero that doesn't outspeed beedrill.

In the case of Hoopa, I see almost no reason not to run Timid (unless it's TR). It's speed is so bad that you pretty much have to run a positive nature.

 

[YABO]

I really don't see the point in running any set that doesn't feature a boosting move on Hoopa, especially when the set is AV or Scarf Serperior for Uber since running scarf or av takes away the whole point of Hoopa which is dumpstering defensive playstyles. Also, from what I've seen Substitute or I guess Trick Room is more or less mandatory on every set.

 

[Hogg]

In the case of Hoopa, I see almost no reason not to run Timid (unless it's TR). It's speed is so bad that you pretty much have to run a positive nature.

If you're specifically running Hoopa to break stall, it's worth noting that Modest Hoopa has a guaranteed OHKO on Blissey at +2, while Timid does not. (It's still a pretty solid chance of OHKOing - just not a guarantee.) I don't think that's actually a reason to run Modest, but bopping Blissey before being para'd is the main justification I can see for skipping out on Timid. It's sort of comparable to Adamant versus Jolly on SD Haxorus - mostly Jolly is the better option, but Adamant gets the KO on some specific stall staples that Jolly just barely misses.

(Of course, this is irrelevant if you're running Sub, as the only thing Blissey can do is T-Wave you...)

 

[Nicobar]

This is the scarf set for Hoopa that I run (don't assume it's good I'm bad at pokemon lol)

Hoopa @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Trick
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast

Ok, so it runs Timid to outspeed things like Adamant Mega Beedrill and Modest Mega Sceptile. Psyshock is stab and can do alot of damage to special walls like Florges and Goodra. Shadow Ball is stab that hits Psychic types and Ghost types, most importantly Doublade. Focus Blast does damage to Normal and Dark types, in which Hoopa is very weak against. It hits teams hard when they're not prepared with anything with strong priority or a dark type to force it out. Here are just a few calcs I did quickly to show Hoopa's strength.

252 SpA Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 8 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 332-392 (102.7 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Hoopa Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Beedrill: 594-698 (219.1 - 257.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 388-458 (138 - 162.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Hoopa Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 150-177 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Hoopa Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 195-231 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 136-162 (40.8 - 48.6%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 332-392 (104 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Thisbemyalt]

This is the scarf set for Hoopa that I run (don't assume it's good I'm bad at pokemon lol)

Hoopa @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Trick
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast

Ok, so it runs Timid to outspeed things like Adamant Mega Beedrill and Modest Mega Sceptile. Psyshock is stab and can do alot of damage to special walls like Florges and Goodra. Shadow Ball is stab that hits Psychic types and Ghost types, most importantly Doublade. Focus Blast does damage to Normal and Dark types, in which Hoopa is very weak against. It hits teams hard when they're not prepared with anything with strong priority or a dark type to force it out. Here are just a few calcs I did quickly to show Hoopa's strength.

252 SpA Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 8 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 332-392 (102.7 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Hoopa Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Beedrill: 594-698 (219.1 - 257.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 388-458 (138 - 162.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Hoopa Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 150-177 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Hoopa Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 195-231 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 136-162 (40.8 - 48.6%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 332-392 (104 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Almost all of those calcs are irrelevant considering the fact that hoopa can naturally outspeed most of these, I assume your point is that scarf can damage bulky mons as well as outspeed offensive threats however if Im being frank this set is pretty bad. Its not even because of your moves or ev spread its mostly just that Hoopa should not be choice locked. Both of its STAB moves and its best coverage move have immunities that are very common in this tier along with a plethora of mons who can resist, hoopa is also much easier to trap with a choice item (Sub np can setup a sub then switch or atk the pursuiting mon and tr outspeeds most trappers with room up), hoopa's low base speed means literally every relevant sarfer and any +1 sweeper mon like dd gatr can outspeed it, finally when scarfed hoopa loses its best asset which is how it can solo most stall teams on ladder/in tours that arent running very specific mons for hoopa i.e. sp def pursuit aero, meloetta with shadow ball, spiritomb, etc.
TLDR: Dont use scarf hoopa it is a waste of an item and almost every viable scarfer does it better

 

[Shadestep]

Sry but scarf hoopa psyshock vs Goodra is really not a relevant calc. Same as all the others, youre just proving to yourseld that scarf Hoopa cant wallbreak for shit, as it doesnt 2HKO Florges, Gligar and P2 while LO does.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Whoa hoopa can ohko beedrill?! o.O

 

[Pinkin Lark]

Whoa hoopa can ohko beedrill?! o.O

It's almost as surprising as Scarf Hoopa's Shadow Ball outspeeding and OHKO'ing Doublade.

Shame Doublade doesn't get priority.

And fun fact: Hoopa-Confined can actually use Hyperspace Fury. It just don't work quite the same as when Hoopa-U uses it...

Tbh, I think Hoopa will be another decent wallbreaker in the tier, but generally won't put in a lot of work against more offensive teams. I have seen TR Hoopa do some nasty things, though.

 

[Shadestep]

Agreed. Sub NP Hoopa will be able to blow away bulkier teams, but Hoopa kinda struggles against nascar offense as its just not fast enough :[

I guess Hoopa is pretty comparable to Chandelure, besides the strong stab. Having 80 power stab moves is really a meh. Without a boosting item/move, Hoopa is actually pretty weak and can be walled easily

 

[Thisbemyalt]

I think hoopa can actually work on offense a core I have been considering is ho with puff+tr hoopa since the two main trappers (mega aero and krook) are settup fodder for puff. Of course the core will require a god tier doublade answer but I think the core could put in work. OTR hoopa imo could become a really solid offense mon however that is just a theorymon idea since I personally havent used otr hoopa
Edit: Hoopa will most likely be like reun where otr is a good set but other sets are more useful overall, or at least they will be when new toy syndrome ends and people arent over preparing or just not playing with defense because of it.

 

[ManOfMany]

One of the nicest things about Hoopa is that it is a great answer to both Snorlax and Reuniclus. Beating these two mons combined is huge in a teambuilding aspect, as it allows more passive teams to not have to run Doublade or a Dark AND Fighting type to beat these mons. For me, this is one of the primary reasons to use Hoopa on teams (the other of course is its ability to 6-0 stall without SpD Mandibuzz, Bulky Pursuit Crobat, or Bulky Pursuit MAero). So even though Hoopa provides little to no defensive synergy, it still provides some unique aspects that allow it to fit on many teams. Pair it with some anti-offense mons like Porygon 2, Slurpuff, or Scarf Mienshao and you have a really nice core.

I really think the only thing holding Hoopa back is Pursuit. The bad physical bulk and speed is not even that much of an issue considering how much work Hoopa can demolish balance if given a nice double-switch or u-turn into play, as well as the fantastic special bulk which allows it to beat the likes of Azelf, Special Mence, and Scarf-Rotom 1v1 easy. When playing against teams with Pursuit (I would estimate this to be about 15% of teams), it is a massive pain due to always having to predict with Focus Blast or Signal Beam, but when it isn't, it will always be able to put in some amount of work.

 

[honchkrow]

Hey guys, just wanted to share an idea I had :x

Having problems with Hoopa? Well have I got a set for you!


Scyther @ Eviolite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 44 SpD / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pursuit
- U-turn
- Aerial Ace
- Roost

8 Atk Technician Scyther Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 292-344 (97 - 114.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Eviolite Scyther: 160-188 (46.6 - 54.8%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scyther: 168-199 (48.9 - 58%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

Some of you may have seen me using an SD pass Scyther team I got from Psychotic and its been fending off Hoopa really well. Only thing is, Hoopa just switches out and if rocks get up later in the game, Scyther is no longer a switch in. Pursuit takes Hoopa out immediately which is rly cool. This set also beats shit like scarf Hydreigon. I swear draco bounces off. Anyway thats all i wanted to share, enjoy :]

 

[Schpoonman]

The only reason I can think to use Scyther over Maero or Krook is not using your Mega Evolution and reliable recovery, respectively. Am I correct?

 

[honchkrow]

The only reason I can think to use Scyther over Maero or Krook is not using your Mega Evolution and reliable recovery, respectively. Am I correct?

yes

edit: its also a neat lure as 10 times out of 10, the Hoopa user wont expect pursuit Scyther

 

[kokoloko]

pretty sure hoopa dies regardless of the user predicting the pursuit but ok

 

[honchkrow]

pretty sure hoopa dies regardless of the user predicting the pursuit but ok

yea you're right, still a neat lure haha xd

 

[Metalhand]

So i'm building a team around hoopa, and here a mon that make its life a lot easier-
Whimsicott @ Leftovers
(Still hasn't thought of ideal EV spread, for now i'm using 252 spa and 252 spd jolly)
-stun spore
-giga drain/moonblast/u-turn
-giga drain/moonblast/u-turn
-leech seed/encore

The idea to use this along hoopa came to me when I saw m-hera and thundurus-t core.
Whimsicott cripple faster mon and make them hoopa pray, beat krook which is hoopa biggest problem. Moves like u-turn and leech seed do the little damage that might turn 2hko into ohko(which is very important for hoopa!) and encore can give it chance to set or sub. Admittedly i got to play with it just on law ladder but i believe this duo can do a lot.
The hoopa set i'm using is lo sub+3 attacks(shadow ball, focus blast psyshock). Though losing hp fast, lo give it enough power and when sub up hoopa is scary.

What do you think on these duo?

 

[IronBullet]

Thought I'd try to start up some discussion in here since it's been dead for over a month lol. I guess a nice place to start would be what people think of the current state of the meta. From what I've seen on the ladder and in open it seems that most teams lately have been either very offensive (Azelf / Coba / Puff for example is a common sight nowadays) or semi-stallish (Florges + Mandi + Forry); teal's and Christo's recent RMTs represent this contrast really well I think. I've found bulky offense to be relatively harder to pull off because of the sheer number of threats you have to take into account, and it's difficult to achieve a nice balance of attack and defense on a team without being weak to at least one major threat. It can still be done of course, but it's definitely not as dominant it was a few months ago.

As for individual Pokes Coba obviously is everywhere atm with the role compression it offers. CM Florg and Reuni are the premier wincons for bulky teams and Cune still reigns as the almost unbreakable tank (especially Roar + RestTalk). Hydrei and Mence are as versatile and dangerous as ever, Aero has been rejuvenated as the most popular Mega, and then you've got the usual threats like Bee, Entei, Mamo, Gatr etc. In terms of new drops Moth is a decent wincon but not a top choice because of its relatively lackluster power (even with TL) and bad Defense, although sleep allows it to boost multiple times to be more threatening. Toxic + Taunt Mandi is also definitely the way to go, and I actually think Defog is rather wasted on it as it's not as much of a nightmare to fat teams without Toxic. Hoopa is extremely dangerous of course but the popularity of Pursuit Aero, Mandi, and Krook means that it's not often going to be sweeping whole teams.

Anyway just some general observations from me, what do you guys think? What playstyles are dominant / what do you enjoy using, what do you think has emerged as a key threat recently (Croak, Doom, Sceptile, Puff come to mind for me), and which do you think are the most dangerous? I reckon the tier is pretty balanced at this point with nothing jumping out as being too overpowering. Reuni is perhaps worth discussing the most just because of the ease with which it sets up, but then with the popularity of Dark-types like Krook, Sharpedo, Hydrei, and Mandi (Thunder means Reuni can't touch Krook and Hydrei) and the existence of Hoopa, it has a harder time now than before.

 

[Kink]

I've been enjoying Tangrowth.

 

[Christo]

I think the UU tier is solid right now. My favorite part about the tier is that every play style is useable. I do think that full stall is the least-viable out of the bunch, though(One would be better off running Semi-stall right now as it is quite devastating to play against). The diversity of the tier is also something that I like a lot. One could feasibly make any pokemon work if you build your team well enough. As IronBullet said, mons like Mega Houndoom, Toxicroak, and as King UU stated, Tangrowth, are all mons that have been getting love recently unlike before(Also seeing a lot of cool stuff from users like FLCL with mons like Uxie and Togetic).

Pokemon that jump out as broken to me would 1st be Reuniclus which, depending on the set it runs, has no counter in the entire tier(Different sets include LO CM Focus Blast, LO CM Shadow ball, LO CM Thunder, LO CM Acid Armor, LO CM Thunder-Wave. I put emphasis on Life Orb as I think that Item is what really puts Reuniclus in the danger-zone of possible brokeness). The second possibly broken pokemon that comes to mind would be Moxie DD Salamence. If one does not have Ice Shard( 2 useable mons in the tier run this move) or a well played Forretress/Bronzong/Mega Aggron then changes are DD Moxie mence can win after one free turn. Pokemon like Florges die to Iron Tail at +1 after SR and once it gets a DD up and kills something, nothing wants to take on a +2 attack +1 Speed mence. Other than those 2 mons nothing else stands out as possibly ban worthy. UU is a good tier rn!

 

[DaSpoofy]

My favorite part of the tier right now is not only the wide variety of pokemon that are viable, but also the amount of innovation that can be effective right now. Stuff like Rock Polish Cobalion, Thunder Wave Reuniclus, and Physical Tangrowth have been growing in popularity along their main sets. I feel free to use my imagination when team building while having an effective team. The amount of lures that UU has come up with has really made this tier exciting. My favorite right now is shuca berry Empoleon. I really think our tier is stable and fun (which is pretty hard to accomplish). I've got to thank our new leadership. Hikari, for such a great development in UU. Not only does he make the tier better, but I feel he is shaping our forums for the greater good.

I'm excited for the new drops that are coming soon. Hopefully they wont shake things up too much.

Edit: Sam, IB, and Everyone else is doing a fabulous job as well. Of course the stability of a tier can not be the work of one man. Just making that clear if it wasnt obviously implied,

 

[Shadestep]

I don't think every playstyle has the same viability right now. As seen from high-level tournament matches, Semi-Stall and bare HO are the most dominant and I think Balance teams are overwhelmed by this. They have too few wallbreakers to succesfully break Semi-Stall teams, and with all the offensive monsters running around (dragons, fightingspam, entei, mamo and krook, shaymin), Balance is probably too focused on trying to wall these thing that they are easily overwhelmed. Semi-stall is just way more consistent and is an all-around 'safer' option in the current meta. Really interested what the new tier shift will bring us and how it will affect the metagame.

 

[LRXC]

I think the meta for UU right now is very well rounded, and I agree with everything you said. I also feel that hazard control is more popular then ever because of all of these new hazard stacking teams. I feel like every team needs a spinner/defogger, or at least a ghost type(spin blocker).... Just an observation. Also my favorite Playstyle is definetly Bulky Offensive, or Bulky Balance =)

 

[Shadestep]

I think the meta for UU right now is very well rounded, and I agree with everything you said. I also feel that hazard control is more popular then ever because of all of these new hazard stacking teams. I feel like every team needs a spinner/defogger, or at least a ghost type(spin blocker).... Just an observation. Also my favorite Playstyle is definetly Bulky Offensive, or Bulky Balance =)

I do not agree with hazard stacking forcing you to run defog/spin necessarily, especially on HO teams. Its ok to put defog on mence or on m-aero if you have a free slot, but HO can live without it.
Hazard-oriented teams aren't much more of a thread than in XY or early OR/AS, I even think spikes are actually a bit underrated in UU as they threaten so many walls and easily weaken teams.