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np: ORAS UU Stage 5 - Center of the Universe
- Thread starter Sam
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Reposting because old thread got locked.
http://www.serebii.net/index2.shtml
Sludge Bomb Zoroark event is now active in North America.
http://www.serebii.net/index2.shtml
Sludge Bomb Zoroark event is now active in North America.
That sounds like it could be pretty big (for example, a Specs Sludge Bomb is a clean 2HKO on non-SpDef Florges), but we'll see.
Well, I mean, a Pokemon that was previously useless against Fairy-types gaining a way to hit them is a pretty big deal. I doubt it's anything that will move Zoroark from BL2 to UU, but seeing as Pokemon like Florges who were once hard counters to Zoroark now have to fear Sludge Bomb, Zoroark should be more viable, though I could see some 4MSS happen as now Specs Zoroark will want to be fitting in Dark Pulse, Focus Blast, Flamethrower, Sludge Bomb, and Trick, but can only pick four.
This sucks for Cobalion. Without boosted Stone Edge you're entirely helpless against PDef Zapdos. We obviously don't have a Birdspam problem in UU, but it's also a new offensive Defogger. It even acts similarly to Crobat as a Fighting check or counter, only it hits harder (Brave Bird hits harder than Thunderbolt, but that's Crobat's only move that hits harder and it has recoil) and threatens the fuck out of bulky waters. I'm looking forward to using it.
So looking at some of its potential sets it appears to have a slight case of 4mss. It needs Roost and Thunderbolt to be able to beat standard crocune consistently. Then Volt switch, heat wave, defog, and a hidden power of choice. Those are 5-6 moves that Zapdos would love to have but probably lacks the space to use. Also the variety of possible sets are looking cool. Offensive defog looks like the best option for Zapdos to take advantage of its qualities. Bulky sets, either physically defensive or specially, look good as well to take advantage of Pressure similar to the way Kyurem runs its SubRoost set. A scarf set is also not out of the question as it is the hardest hitting electric type in the tier and also has a base 100 speed tier. Overall Zapdos looks like something that will provide versatility to the metagame while at the same time not providing anything unstable or broken.
Well to go off what I see for pretty much all of the sets. Offensive, Choice Specs, maybe a scarf on volt-turn teams, he makes a solid agility passer, physdef, offensive defog, sp.def, mixed wall, and if it doesn't such in this tier like it does in ou the agility sweeper set. Zapdos is easily my favorite Pokémon and I'm glad he's back in uu, Hopefully he won'the get banned too early he's really versatile and somewhat flexible in his moveset. The hidden power discussions will start again of which hidden power is better? Ice or Grass? That's what I got off the top of my head.
EDIT: I looked at some things and thought of some other sets, metal sound looks like a decent move,This can be used on rain with thunder, subtoxic is possible with pressure stalling, tailwind support is another option too.
Edit2: will be back with more stuff soon.
EDIT: I looked at some things and thought of some other sets, metal sound looks like a decent move,This can be used on rain with thunder, subtoxic is possible with pressure stalling, tailwind support is another option too.
Edit2: will be back with more stuff soon.
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*cough* Mow Rotom *cough*
I am feeling there's some slight 4MSS with Zapdos, though, as Rattled Snakes has already mentioned. I've found it pairs well with Mega Beedrill though for VoltTurn shenanigans.
Some fun Zoroak Calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges: 148-177 (41.1 - 49.1%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges: 170-202 (47.2 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
52 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 307-361 (96.5 - 113.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges: 170-202 (47.2 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
52 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 307-361 (96.5 - 113.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
LilOu
PO poopyhead
Why are you people calcing vs. Calm Florges? Bold is the standard. Also, why Specs Zoroark? Hydreigon does that work way better having a better typing, better bulk and better spammable STAB. You should be using Nasty Plot Zoroark as it forces tons of switches, giving you a free NP. + it can make use of the amazing coverage it has rather than being locked into moves that are easily taken advantage of. So this is the correct calc.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 333-393 (92.5 - 109.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
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The calcs aren't standard they are just to show Zoroaks power against the two common fairies of UU with sludge bomb. And whimsi which we don't need to calc that lol and yes I forgot to add the +2 calc
Feraligatr has it rough since the metagame has found more ways to deal with it and isnt exactly the best bulky Water but rather a wallbreaker/cleaner which is a double-edged sword. Zapdos coming back makes it worse adding to its already large amount of checks since offensive variants OHKO with Thunderbolt while defensive variants can tank Ice Punch (albeit not very well) and proceed to wear it down with Toxic or repeated STAB attacks. Feraligatr is still good but not the dominating threat it used to be imo.
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
Zapdos is a great addition to the UU tier, I love it so much. It can wall stuff like Cobalion no problem while also being able to defeat bulky waters and bulky Steels with Heat Wave. It also has a lot of versatility in it's sets, like offensive LO, offensive Defog, defensive, Specs, Scarf, etc. It does have a slight case of 4MSS though, as said above, as it wants Volt Switch and TBolt, and HP and Roost and Defog depending on the set, so it has at least has a flaw, along with being weak to SR. But it has many positive traits, including synergizing well with many of the tier's top threats, like Mega Swampert and Feraligatr (who is worse now but still powerful). So, yeah, while Zapdos isn't any way broken in my opinion, it is going to change a tier a bit. (Imo, a good starting rank would be A+, and then let's slowly see how it works and see if it's S or not.)
Oh yeah, and I think Mega Abomasnow is gonna be REALLY good now, even if it already was. It crushes Zapdos + Swampert/Mamoswine cores if Zapdos doesn't have Heat Wave, but the slight nerf to bulky waters in the wake of Zapdos might hurt it a bit.
Zoroark with Sludge Bomb seems interesting, it can hurt Fairies now, so it might get a bit more viable.
Overall, UU is going to change a bit, and I like it! Finally, my favorite Kanto Burd is back, and he's ready to wreck!
Oh yeah, and I think Mega Abomasnow is gonna be REALLY good now, even if it already was. It crushes Zapdos + Swampert/Mamoswine cores if Zapdos doesn't have Heat Wave, but the slight nerf to bulky waters in the wake of Zapdos might hurt it a bit.
Zoroark with Sludge Bomb seems interesting, it can hurt Fairies now, so it might get a bit more viable.
Overall, UU is going to change a bit, and I like it! Finally, my favorite Kanto Burd is back, and he's ready to wreck!
Been messing around with Zapdos + Cobalion turn core. Outside of getting constantly shut down by Ground-types, it's a cute hazard + hazcontrol core with defensive synergy. It would be a nice addition to a balance team and offers a lot of teamspace economy.
Something iv'e been using is Offensive Zapdos + SPD Empoleon + Defensive Rotom-H. I think this core really works well together in covering each other's weaknesees while giving me hazards, hazard control, pivot, and 2 ground immunizes. Iv'e tried various different types of zapdos like LO, Defensive, Scarf, and weakness Policy with agility(I thought it would be fun :]...); The one's iv'e had the most success are Scarf and LO, both bring a great offensive presence on teams. The defensive set for me hasn't done as well i thought it would have but i haven't used it that much so ill continue to use it to see how it fairs in a tier with pokes like Mamoswine and froslass who threaten zapdos.
Have you tried Mowtom or a U-turner that can threaten Ground-types to round out the core?
I was trying a Zap Plate offensive Zapdos but I wasn't actually that impressed with it, set was something like tbolt / v switch / HP grass / roost. Life Orb was a bit better because it really makes Hidden Power sting on 2x weaknesses like Krook for example but then Life Orb Volt Switch is a pain, especially if you have to come back onto rocks. Offensive Defog is cool although it's a pity you either lose to pert or gligar whatever you run due to only being able to have one Hidden Power.
A mon I'm finding cool rn is Kyurem, it was already good before Zapdos dropped, and now bird is everywhere being a natural check and a chance to click either stab really works in its favour.
A mon I'm finding cool rn is Kyurem, it was already good before Zapdos dropped, and now bird is everywhere being a natural check and a chance to click either stab really works in its favour.
One thing I really wanted to hype was Mega Houndoom. We all know what it does, it uses Nasty plot and reks, but latest trends showcase why Houndoom is a hidden gem and should be used more.
1. Bold Florges. Florges now runs a bold nature to deal with physical attackers better. This means that Megadoom can beat Florges if it Nasty plots on the switch. Unboosted Fire blast also does a good 40% which means that florges is now longer a reliable counter to Doom. This is in particular threatening because Florges usually takes the slot of their special switchin.
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 261-307 (72.5 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 130-154 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Meanwhile,
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Houndoom: 123-145 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Minimal prior damage leaves Florges struggling to deal with a boosted Houndoom, something that you could not claim earlier because of the popularity of calm florges.
2. Offensive Empoleon. Lately there has been a rise in offensive Empoleons running Shuca and 3 attacks.The 4th move is usually either defog or Stealth rocks But offensive empoleon gets OHKOed by a boosted Fire Blast which means it can't even tank and revenge much less switch into doom.
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 189-223 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 376-444 (101.3 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Like I said earlier, this is only possible because of the advent of shuca Empoleon which is used to deal with Krookodile and more importantly Mamoswine.
Note: Obviously a concern is where is Houndoom getting a boost from considering its relative fraility. But houndoom can still set up on chandelure, foretress, choice locked entei and several other choiced users. Furthermore it can also set up on Roarcune, which is gaining popularity, during its sleep turns.
3. Speed tier. There is a lot of popularity of pokemon in the 320s to 340s range but almost nothing in the upper 300s range.This includes namely pokemon like Cobalion and Heliolisk. After Houndoom you don't really see anything relevant in the speed tiers until you hit crobat and the fast megas like sceptile. Houndooms speed tier is really cool to be a skip ahead of all the other high powered threats in the region. And the top it all off, Crobat will likely see a decline in popularity because of Zapdos which slightly increases its valuable speed tier.
Overall, I just wanted to showcase what is new that is working in favor in of Mega-Houndoom because I really like it and have used it to moderate success on the ladder. While it still has flaws and nothing new has actually changed for it, Mega-Hounddom is better than ever before because of various trends in the metagame
1. Bold Florges. Florges now runs a bold nature to deal with physical attackers better. This means that Megadoom can beat Florges if it Nasty plots on the switch. Unboosted Fire blast also does a good 40% which means that florges is now longer a reliable counter to Doom. This is in particular threatening because Florges usually takes the slot of their special switchin.
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 261-307 (72.5 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 130-154 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Meanwhile,
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Houndoom: 123-145 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Minimal prior damage leaves Florges struggling to deal with a boosted Houndoom, something that you could not claim earlier because of the popularity of calm florges.
2. Offensive Empoleon. Lately there has been a rise in offensive Empoleons running Shuca and 3 attacks.The 4th move is usually either defog or Stealth rocks But offensive empoleon gets OHKOed by a boosted Fire Blast which means it can't even tank and revenge much less switch into doom.
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 189-223 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 376-444 (101.3 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Like I said earlier, this is only possible because of the advent of shuca Empoleon which is used to deal with Krookodile and more importantly Mamoswine.
Note: Obviously a concern is where is Houndoom getting a boost from considering its relative fraility. But houndoom can still set up on chandelure, foretress, choice locked entei and several other choiced users. Furthermore it can also set up on Roarcune, which is gaining popularity, during its sleep turns.
3. Speed tier. There is a lot of popularity of pokemon in the 320s to 340s range but almost nothing in the upper 300s range.This includes namely pokemon like Cobalion and Heliolisk. After Houndoom you don't really see anything relevant in the speed tiers until you hit crobat and the fast megas like sceptile. Houndooms speed tier is really cool to be a skip ahead of all the other high powered threats in the region. And the top it all off, Crobat will likely see a decline in popularity because of Zapdos which slightly increases its valuable speed tier.
Overall, I just wanted to showcase what is new that is working in favor in of Mega-Houndoom because I really like it and have used it to moderate success on the ladder. While it still has flaws and nothing new has actually changed for it, Mega-Hounddom is better than ever before because of various trends in the metagame
It's amazing to see how a pokemon with flying, fighting, grass, bug and steel resists can bring to this tier. I'm trying a defensive pivot Zapdos in a volt turn core with Mega Beedrill, and it offers great support as a defogger and pivot, while packing some useful resists for the team. I'm using Volt Switch/HP Grass/Defog/Roost, this way Zapdos carry the same coverage Rotom-C does, but without worrying about Crobat/Ground types cores, unlike Rotom-C. Heat Wave is a good coverage move, especially hitting things like Mega Sceptile, but HP Grass hits most ground types besides Nidos and Gligar for 50% with little investment, while taking a nice 75% from both Mega and regular Swampert. Steel types still takes chunks from Volt Switch so I don't mind the fire coverage loss. That way I can hurt anything that tries to stop my volt core, while pivoting out from any of my supposed counters, bringing Mega Beedrill or the respective counter/check safe.
But an offensive Zapdos seems cool too. 3 Atks + Roost is divine. Since every team has a bulky water in this tier, you really doesn't have any bad matchup. But what I have found as a problem for offensive Zapdos is that it's unable to pass some common walls like Florges, Umbreon, P2, Gligar, Lax etc. You can use Volt Switch over Thunderbolt to keep your momentum, but then you have a weak, not spammable, STAB option, which makes it unable to check some things it should, like Mandibuzz. You can use both Tbolt and VS, but then you lose coverage. I'm saying this because, while I'm not researching offensive Zapdos, I've seen many Zapdos over ladder, from many kinds, and I didn't have much problem with offensve Zapdos so far. Defensive Zapdos on another side...
I guess Zapdos' influence will make Rotom-C, Crobat and fighting types usage drop even more. Offensive variants hits as hard as Specs Rotom-C, while Defog Zapdos is one more competition for Crobat niche. I guess we will see offensive Crobat even more, since it still packs a punch in Brave Bird, but I don't see a good future for Rotom-C coming. It definitely has a niche with a better typing to switch on water types, but Zapdos has reliable recovery and a good natural bulk to tank some Scalds too. Heck, Heliolisk will become a better option, since it's actually immune to Scald - Rotom-C has this problem where if he gets a burn it's only a matter of time until your "check" is gone (much like the Keldeo-Latias situation in OU). RIP Mow I really enjoyed your stay.
edit: the defensive pivot spread is 248 HP/16 SpA/244 Spe with a Modest Nature given by fatty in the np stage 4
But an offensive Zapdos seems cool too. 3 Atks + Roost is divine. Since every team has a bulky water in this tier, you really doesn't have any bad matchup. But what I have found as a problem for offensive Zapdos is that it's unable to pass some common walls like Florges, Umbreon, P2, Gligar, Lax etc. You can use Volt Switch over Thunderbolt to keep your momentum, but then you have a weak, not spammable, STAB option, which makes it unable to check some things it should, like Mandibuzz. You can use both Tbolt and VS, but then you lose coverage. I'm saying this because, while I'm not researching offensive Zapdos, I've seen many Zapdos over ladder, from many kinds, and I didn't have much problem with offensve Zapdos so far. Defensive Zapdos on another side...
I guess Zapdos' influence will make Rotom-C, Crobat and fighting types usage drop even more. Offensive variants hits as hard as Specs Rotom-C, while Defog Zapdos is one more competition for Crobat niche. I guess we will see offensive Crobat even more, since it still packs a punch in Brave Bird, but I don't see a good future for Rotom-C coming. It definitely has a niche with a better typing to switch on water types, but Zapdos has reliable recovery and a good natural bulk to tank some Scalds too. Heck, Heliolisk will become a better option, since it's actually immune to Scald - Rotom-C has this problem where if he gets a burn it's only a matter of time until your "check" is gone (much like the Keldeo-Latias situation in OU). RIP Mow I really enjoyed your stay.
edit: the defensive pivot spread is 248 HP/16 SpA/244 Spe with a Modest Nature given by fatty in the np stage 4
Defensive Pivot Zapdos
16+ SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 158-186 (47.7 - 56.1%)
16+ SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 178-210 (46.3 - 54.6%)
it's almost the same calc for every ground type bar Nidos and Gligar
16+ SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Grass vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 256-304 (63.8 - 75.8%)
16+ SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Swampert: 216-256 (63.3 - 75%)
no Swampert is safe
Offensive Zapdos
252 SpA Life Orb Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 142-169 (19.8 - 23.6%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom-C Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 147-174 (20.5 - 24.3%)
they hit quite the same
16+ SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 158-186 (47.7 - 56.1%)
16+ SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 178-210 (46.3 - 54.6%)
it's almost the same calc for every ground type bar Nidos and Gligar
16+ SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Grass vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 256-304 (63.8 - 75.8%)
16+ SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Swampert: 216-256 (63.3 - 75%)
no Swampert is safe
Offensive Zapdos
252 SpA Life Orb Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 142-169 (19.8 - 23.6%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom-C Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 147-174 (20.5 - 24.3%)
they hit quite the same
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AV Goodra is one of Goodra's worst sets. You're still physically vulnerable, but you don't hit very hard and you don't have Lefties recovery to offset the damage you take. We already have lots of Pokemon that effectively wall Zapdos that are far more utilitarian.
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