np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[fidgety]

Are you sure it would not be broken?

EDIT:

That difference is really not that significant (imo) to differentiate the two. Why does affecting stats mean that something can suddenly be banned? You could say Darkrai becomes insanely powerful with DV with the ability of an essential free kill and free set-up.

when it means the kind of boost from soul dew (50% to special attack + special defence on designated pokes) on already powerful pokes (pikachu can't hold it's own if it's life depended on) yes it does. darkrai is already a free kill at least without void. the only stall mon that isn't at least 2 shotted by it at +2 is evostone chancey + even then it's healling too constantly to do anything back is going to prevent a healthy meta which by definition all strategies (balanced, offense (heavy to moderate), + stall (heavy to light)) are viable.

 

[ssbbm]

This seems to be the recurring argument, that Dark Void is too powerful in itself. Then why isn't Spore?

As explained earlier (although its probably hidden under a ton of posts), under that logic, the non-Soul Dew Lati@s tests were illegitimate, since if Soul Dew is too powerful in itself, why isn't Light Ball?

Oh, and @ Fidgety - the point is that he wants to TEST whether Darkrai is broken with or without DV. Unless it can be proven that he is broken with evidence (not theorymon), then the test should go on.

 

[Lee]

Second, Rankurusu is using 252/252 with a +Def nature. That's a completely unreasonable spread; no Rankurusu runs that. With a reasonable spread, it's not too difficult to 2HKO Rankurusu with any sort of attacking pokemon.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3146104&postcount=23

http://91.121.73.228/Wifi/579.html

Ooopsies!

Late in Gen IV it became fashionable for heavy stall teams to run ScarfTyranitar to deal with the few Pokemon that beat down generic heavy stall teams (Latias and SubSplit Gengar I suppose, I wasn't really actively playing at that point). Heavy stall teams have been running Perish Song for god-knows-how-long to deal with things like Curselax and Crocune that would otherwise 6-0 them. Many stall teams ran a Trick Rotom-A to cripple the aforementioned slow-boosting sweepers. I suppose what I'm saying is, stall teams are always adapting and evolving to deal with all sorts of threats - why do you feel Rankurusu is such an insurmountable threat that we should ban him, rather than think of new methods to deal with him?

 

[cosmicexplorer]

I'm going to quote Ice-eyes from earlier in the thread:

Testing non-Void Darkrai sets a VERY dangerous precedent which will waste our time for the rest of the generation.

One could argue that we are only banning moves, not pokemon+move combinations, but that again begs the question: if you're arguing that Dark Void itself is broken, then why isn't Spore? Arguing for testing of these kinds of moves will just take up way too much time. And if I may inquire, how is Dark Void broken in itself? That's the only reason a move should be banned. Soul Dew drastically changes the pokemon, which is why it was removed in Gen 4. The only reason Light Ball isn't subject to that same banning is because the only pokemon it affects is absolutely terrible, with stats comparable to Pachirisu.

EDIT: Scratch that, Pachirisu has better stats.

 

[masterful]

DV is powerful on Darkrai because it can abuse it to far greater effect than something like Breloom, with its access to Nasty Plot, near perfect coverage, and great speed

 

[ssbbm]

Originally Posted by Fat Ice-eyes
Testing non-Void Darkrai sets a VERY dangerous precedent which will waste our time for the rest of the generation.

That precedent was already set by the SD clause.

And I could argue that DV is as drastic a change as SD is; you get essentially a free kill and a free sleep.

I'm not saying that I think that Darkrai will not be broken without DV; I'm saying that if we follow precedent, then DV should be tested.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

DV is powerful on Darkrai because it can abuse it to far greater effect than something like Breloom, with its access to Nasty Plot, near perfect coverage, and great speed

Breloom has Swords Dance, 130 base attack, and priority STAB Technician Mach Punch, along with excellent coverage with Stone Edge and useful dual STAB. It can also stall out a huge number of pokemon with Poison Heal and Substitute, and can also use Leech Seed effectively. And don't forget the bone-crushing power of its Focus Punch. Breloom is a potent offensive and defensive threat, and is in no way as mediocre as Pikachu.

That precedent was already set by the SD clause.

And I could argue that DV is as drastic a change as SD is; you get essentially a free kill and a free sleep.

I'm not saying that I think that Darkrai will not be broken without DV; I'm saying that if we follow precedent, then DV should be tested.

You could argue that Dark Void is broken, but again, why isn't Spore broken?

 

[fidgety]

ok finally got calcs asume +2 252 timid darkrai:
focus blast vs 252/252 evolution stone chansey:39-46%
focus blast vs 252/252 blissey: 48-57%
lo focus blast vs 252/252 evo stone chansey: 51-60%
lo focus blast vs 252/252 blissey: 63-74%
also remember fighting + dark provides perfect coverage. how is that healthy for the meta. it isn't. remember the entire goal of suspect testing is to create a healthy + enjoyable meta-game.
edit: before anyone gets nit-picky about oh chancey + blissey can status back that's where taunt comes in

 

[ssbbm]

You could argue that Dark Void is broken, but again, why isn't Spore broken?

Spore is not broken because of its bad distribution, similarly to how Light Ball is not broken because of its bad distribution.

 

[masterful]

Breloom has Swords Dance, 130 base attack, and priority STAB Technician Mach Punch, along with excellent coverage with Stone Edge and useful dual STAB. It can also stall out a huge number of pokemon with Poison Heal and Substitute, and can also use Leech Seed effectively. And don't forget the bone-crushing power of its Focus Punch. Breloom is a potent offensive and defensive threat, and is in no way as mediocre as Pikachu.




You could argue that Dark Void is broken, but again, why isn't Spore broken?

Breloom has terrible speed. Any ghost type can come in and KO him. He can be easily whirlwinded out by Skarm. He just gets too easily outsped

 

[alexwolf]

@alexwolf: aside from everything else, a level clause would create yet another slippery slope where Kyogre, Arceus et al will all have to downleveled to fit in OU. The only way for a level clause to work would be to make everything Lv90, which defeats the whole point.

again u don't get what i mean...u are doing the same thing that u have been telling other people not to do...u are not reading carefully!!!i told u that we could put a lvl clause on all the users of a move(a move that is broken on all of its users)to make them viable enough for ou without removing one move from their moveset(i am not suggesting this i am just shwoing how far ur way of thinking can lead).and u didn't answered to the previous post i made...i am asking u why is it a valid argument to ban a move totally from ou(which in darkrai's case means only in one poke)rather than banning a combination of broken move and poke???

 

[pharaohcalvin]

I want to ask you all a questiion, is Dark Void broken on smeargle? I think not, and if it doesn't brake all the pokemon that have it then it is not broken. So please stop this bull of trying to find a way to keep darkrai OU >.>

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Spore is not broken because of its bad distribution, similarly to how Light Ball is not broken because of its bad distribution.

Dark Void has terrible distribution too; I don't see what you're trying to say here.

EDIT: Oh, you mean that the pokemon who get it suck. Again, Breloom gets Swords Dance, 130 base Attack, and perfect coverage with STAB Technician Mach Punch and Stone Edge. It's not terrible. It gets a better sleep move than Darkrai does. You can't argue that it's different because Breloom is terrible, because it's not.

 

[fidgety]

ok finally got calcs asume +2 252 timid darkrai:
focus blast vs 252/252 evolution stone chansey:39-46%
focus blast vs 252/252 blissey: 48-57%
lo focus blast vs 252/252 evo stone chansey: 51-60%
lo focus blast vs 252/252 blissey: 63-74%
also remember fighting + dark provides perfect coverage. how is that healthy for the meta. it isn't. remember the entire goal of suspect testing is to create a healthy + enjoyable meta-game.
edit: before anyone gets nit-picky about oh chancey + blissey can status back that's where taunt comes in

just so these calcs are on the new page.

 

[alexwolf]

Alexwolf, just keep this on the topic, don't start about level clauses, as it doesn't have shit to do with this.

i am bringing up this topic because the reasoning about this argument is the same as domeface's to whom i am trying to prove that his reasoning is false...so unless u understand the conversation don't post irrelevant things pls...it's impolite!!!

 

[Aqueos]

Percentages are preferable to the actual numbers.

I myself thought Rankurusu might prove to be broken later on, for the reason you mentioned (destroying stall) but there a a variety of ways to deal with it (even if it would make the team not quite heavy stall). CBtar handles offensive versions pretty well, and sableye and spiritomb handle defensive cm psychic/focus blast versions. Encore also ruins cmers, and unaware pokes might be able to handle it. I doubt it will be voted uber, and if it was a suspect this round, I would vote it OU.

If rankurusu, destroys stall, it simply means stall will need to carry a rankurusu counter. It doesn't mean that it is broken. On another note, I really dislike this whole ban moves thing. Darkrai is an extremely potent nasty plot sweeper no matter how you slice it, with, or without, dark void. It even gets hypnosis too if you MUST put something too sleep, albeit with less accuracy.

 

[ssbbm]

again u don't get what i mean...u are doing the same thing that u have been telling other people not to do...u are not reading carefully!!!i told u that we could put a lvl clause on all the users of a move(a move that is broken on all of its users)to make them viable enough for ou without removing one move from their moveset(i am not suggesting this i am just shwoing how far ur way of thinking can lead).and u didn't answered to the previous post i made...i am asking u why is it a valid argument to ban a move totally from ou(which in darkrai's case means only in one poke)rather than banning a combination of broken move and poke???

What Domeface wants is a blanket ban on Dark Void. Your Level Clause suggestion would work if you want ALL Pokemon to be Level 90, or 80, or whatever.

EDIT:

Dark Void has terrible distribution too; I don't see what you're trying to say here.

EDIT: Oh, you mean that the pokemon who get it suck. Again, Breloom gets Swords Dance, 130 base Attack, and perfect coverage with STAB Technician Mach Punch and Stone Edge. It's not terrible. It gets a better sleep move than Darkrai does. You can't argue that it's different because Breloom is terrible, because it's not.

But I can argue that Breloom obviously isn't broken with Spore, thus Spore cannot be broken. The recipients of the move do not have to be TERRIBLE, merely not Uber.

I want to ask you all a questiion, is Dark Void broken on smeargle? I think not, and if it doesn't brake all the pokemon that have it then it is not broken. So please stop this bull of trying to find a way to keep darkrai OU >.>

Is Soul Dew broken on Pikachu? I think not, yet we still tested it. And the Soul Dew Clause was basically a way to keep the Lati@s twins in OU.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Well, if Spore, a better Sleep move than Dark Void, is obviously not broken, then why would Dark Void be broken?

 

[XienZo]

Now, here's my question.

If the distribution of a move is a factor in how broken it is, would it be possible for Trick to be found broken, but for Switcheroo not to be?

After all, if the two have different distributions, and if distribution is a factor in broken-ness, then it can be inferred that the two could be different regarding broken-ness.

 

[capefeather]

Y'know, on the off-chance that Drizzle is banned (somehow I doubt it), Kyogre technically won't need to be banned directly anymore. Kyogre, technically not Uber? An amusing thought.

 

[ssbbm]

Well, if Spore, a better Sleep move than Dark Void, is obviously not broken, then why would Dark Void be broken?

O_o I already said this but...

If Light Ball, a better item than Soul Dew is obviously not broken, then why would Soul Dew be broken?

Soul Dew clause opened up so many possibilities (I'm not saying that that's good).

@XienZo: Yes, if Trick was found broken.

Y'know, on the off-chance that Drizzle is banned (somehow I doubt it), Kyogre technically won't need to be banned directly anymore. Kyogre, technically not Uber? An amusing thought.

lol

 

[cosmicexplorer]

O_o I already said this but...

If Light Ball, a better item than Soul Dew is obviously not broken, then why would Soul Dew be broken?

Soul Dew clause opened up so many possibilities (I'm not saying that that's good).

You're using circular logic. Let me rephrase everything that's been said.

• Spore, a better sleep move than Dark Void, is not broken.
  
• You said that due to the precedent of Soul Dew and Light Ball, where Soul Dew was found to be overpowered, but Light Ball not, that the same situation was present here due to the different pokemon with access to the move.
  
• I stated that Pikachu is so mediocre, as opposed to Latias, that the Soul Dew + Light Ball "precedent" doesn't apply, because Breloom is a powerful attacker, and not anywhere near as terrible as Pikachu.

The Soul Dew "precedent" doesn't apply, because Breloom isn't completely terrible, while Pikachu is. Therefore, due to Spore being a better sleep move than Dark Void, Dark Void is not broken.

 

[XienZo]

@XienZo: Yes, if Trick was found broken.

Right, so by your logic, you're stating that it's possible for Trick to be found broken and Switcheroo not to be? And I assume, that applies to Protect possibly being found broken with Detect is not. Is that so?

 

[Chomper The Sharptooth]

Again, spore can be negated by Herbivore and Dark Void doesn't have immunes. Therefore you can't say it is strictly better if we can't argue the same for light ball because it simply isn't the case. Sure the 20% accuracy is far better and less situational, but what Latios would want +1 spa/sdef when he could have +2 spa/att? If Pikachu can go physical with 55 attack Latios can do it with 90, on top of an automatic Nasty Plot from base 130 SpA. The difference is in the users, like Dark Void vs Spore.

If drizzle is banned we should put Kyogre in OU just because we can... XD

 

[XienZo]

Again, spore can be negated by Herbivore and Dark Void doesn't have immunes.

1. Vital Spirit, Insomnia, and Magic Guard blocks both.

2. Wide Guard only blocks Dark Void, and has greater distribution than Herbivore.