np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[SlimMan]

Have you forgoteen 150/150/150? If Porygon-Z had 150 speed and resisted Mach Punch, it would be monstrous. Also, a crappy pursuit and countering 1 pokemon does not a success story make. Don't act so smug because your Spiritomb does 2 things instead of one

First of all, Deo-N may resist Mach Punch, but he is weak to the rare Shadow Sneak. Not only that, but P-Z isn't OHKOed by things like Fake Out and Quick Attack (guess who is). But can we avoid changing this into a P-Z argument?

Since when is a STAB Pursuit crappy? Assuming they run the same investment, it is stronger than Scizor's. Not that all Spiritomb run max Atk, but the point is still valid.

For an analogy, Dusknoir was mostly out-classed by Rotom-A in Gen4. Rotom-A could do almost everything Dusknoir could do, and do it better. But Dusknoir was still OU.

Also, I am going to be very smug the next time a Rankurusu sweeps you. Because your closed-mindedness and stubbornness will cause you to lose.

Lastly, I don't even run a Spiritomb. So "my" Spritomb can't do anything because it doesn't exist.

 

[masterful]

First of all, Deo-N may resist Mach Punch, but he is weak to the rare Shadow Sneak. Not only that, but P-Z isn't OHKOed by things like Fake Out and Quick Attack (guess who is). But can we avoid changing this into a P-Z argument?

Since when is a STAB Pursuit crappy? Assuming they run the same investment, it is stronger than Scizor's. Not that all Spiritomb run max Atk, but the point is still valid.

For an analogy, Dusknoir was mostly out-classed by Rotom-A in Gen4. Rotom-A could do almost everything Dusknoir could do, and do it better. But Dusknoir was still OU.

Also, I am going to be very smug the next time a Rankurusu sweeps you. Because your closed-mindedness and stubbornness will cause you to lose.

Lastly, I don't even run a Spiritomb. So "my" Spritomb can't do anything because it doesn't exist.

I was speaking in terms of "your" meaning "your" idea for Spiritomb. Once again, becoming tiresome

 

[SlimMan]

How can that possibly NOT be deemed broken. Have people lost all semblance of rhyme or reason? Mewtwo and Kyogre were never tested, it is just absurd to test something with 150 attacking stats AND speed. I played on the PO server, in which Deo-N wasn't banned for a while, and one could just throw it on as a lead and destroy at least 2 pokes per game. How is that not broken? (I was playing among 1400 rated players, btw)

Beginning of Gen4:
"How can a pokemon with 140 Atk, and an amazing ability not be broken?
"How can a pokemon with 135 Sp Atk, and two amazing abilities not be broken?"

The difference between Kyogre/Mewtwo and Deo-N is that the former are not revenged by a slight breeze.

I was speaking in terms of "your" meaning "your" idea for Spiritomb. Once again, becoming tiresome

By becoming tiresome, I assume you mean this argument?
Because if so, I couldn't agree more.

 

[masterful]

Beginning of Gen4:
"How can a pokemon with 140 Atk, and an amazing ability not be broken?
"How can a pokemon with 135 Sp Atk, and two amazing abilities not be broken?"

The difference between Kyogre/Mewtwo and Deo-N is that the former are not revenged by a slight breeze.



By becoming tiresome, I assume you mean this argument?
Because if so, I couldn't agree more.

By becoming tiresome, I mean explaining things to children

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

Watching people argue about Deoxys-N and Reuniclus is quickly losing its lulz. The subtitle of this thread is getting more appropriate.

 

[SlimMan]

By becoming tiresome, I mean explaining things to children

Explain one last thing to me, oh mighty, oh powerful, all-knowing adult. Here it is:

Suppose I have a well-built team which handles most of the threats in the metagame. However, suppose my team's only glaring weakness is to Rankurusu. In that case, why would I not make my 6th member Spiritomb?

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Watching people argue about Deoxys-N and Reuniclus is quickly losing its lulz. The subtitle of this thread is getting more appropriate.

cool story bro

Explain one last thing to me, oh mighty, oh powerful, all-knowing adult. Here it is:

Suppose I have a well-built team which handles most of the threats in the metagame. However, suppose my team's only glaring weakness is to Rankurusu. In that case, why would I not make my 6th member Spiritomb?

...Well, maybe your team would have a glaring weakness to a number of pokémon then ?__? Unless your team is so manly it handles everything but Rankurusu with only 5 pokémon.

 

[SlimMan]

cool story bro



...Well, maybe your team would have a glaring weakness to a number of pokémon then ?__? Unless your team is so manly it handles everything but Rankurusu with only 5 pokémon.

Having a team like what I described is prolly impossible. But I figured that using the word "suppose" a lot would put things into perspective.

But yes, that's exactly what I'm asking this guy.

edit: Hey masterful, if you're going to start a flame war (and it looks like you will at this point) can you do it fast? I gotta get off soon.

 

[iDunno]

...Well, maybe your team would have a glaring weakness to a number of pokémon then ?__? Unless your team is so manly it handles everything but Rankurusu with only 5 pokémon.

Well, right now there are SO MANY huge threats on the Physical side that most Pokemon are investing very highly in Defense in oppose to SpDef. Maybe it would be better to wait and see whether Rankurusu is hard to counter once Pokemon like Landlos and Doryuuzu and Rain Sweepers go through the suspect phaze and are possibly (probably) banned (?)

 

[SlimMan]

Well, right now there are SO MANY huge threats on the Physical side that most Pokemon are investing very highly in Defense in oppose to SpDef. Maybe it would be better to wait and see whether Rankurusu is hard to counter once Pokemon like Landlos and Doryuuzu and Rain Sweepers go through the suspect phaze and are possibly (probably) banned (?)

You forgot Blaziken.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Since it appears masterful has stopping flami-... I mean, countering my arguments, I'll begin a new topic. I hope my attempt doesn't become an epic fail.

There is large support for a Drizzle ban as opposed to banning Kingdra and Ludi and Kabutops. How do the people who think Sand is broken feel about banning Sand Stream vs Dory/Landlos?

I believe that Sand is fine, but since it has been called forth for scrutiny, perhaps we should analyze dealing-with-Sand vs dealing-with-Rain. I believe that it is perfectly fine to treat them differently if Sand is decided broken.

 

[astrohawke]

I mean Rank has counters don't get me wrong, but the problem is alot of them just arent reliable against it.

Welcome to Gen 5. I can name at least 5-10 pokemon that fit the same description. If you ban everything that has no reliable counters, then you've pretty much banned half the things in OU that aren't walls.

 

[alamaster]

As for the whole Deo-N argument, I voted it UBER because I've played it enough on the Beta server to know what it is capable of, and it is definitely too strong for OU. 150/150/150 is still ridiculous, and its ability to survive some priority/weak attacks makes it in some ways deadlier than Deo-A.

 

[alphatron]

You know, nominating Dory over sandstream isn't all that different from nominating the broken rain pokes over drizzle. Much like the broken rain trio, Dory only achieves his broken level because of the sand boost, and had he existed in gen IV, (AND had Tyranitar not Hippo NOT had sandstream), he'd be in UU just like the rest of the rain pokes people are complaining about now.

Obviously this is ignoring all the other support rain gives to its types that sand does not.

 

[ensoriki]

You know, nominating Dory over sandstream isn't all that different from nominating the broken rain pokes over drizzle. Much like the broken rain trio, Dory only achieves his broken level because of the sand boost, and had he existed in gen IV, (AND had Tyranitar not Hippo NOT had sandstream), he'd be in UU just like the rest of the rain pokes people are complaining about now.

Obviously this is ignoring all the other support rain gives to its types that sand does not.

Rock is sands type.

 

[Focus]

There is large support for a Drizzle ban as opposed to banning Kingdra and Ludi and Kabutops. How do the people who think Sand is broken feel about banning Sand Stream vs Dory/Landlos?

I believe that Sand is fine, but since it has been called forth for scrutiny, perhaps we should analyze dealing-with-Sand vs dealing-with-Rain. I believe that it is perfectly fine to treat them differently if Sand is decided broken.

Right. I think that sand certainly has a place in OU. Sandstorm getting banned would break my little heart. :( I would much rather see shovel-mole or land-genie get ousted (I will not comment on whether they belong in OU). There is a thread in PR talking about banning auto-weather entirely! That seems completely absurd to me! I really want to play in a metagame with all types of auto-weather. I would actually rather see a ban on Drizzle+Swift Swim than on half a dozen rain sweepers. Something really should be done to balance rain out a bit; I just don't like it. I guess I want a more diverse OU metagame than I am seeing.

 

[ensoriki]

Right. I think that sand certainly has a place in OU. Sandstorm getting banned would break my little heart. :( I would much rather see shovel-mole or land-genie get ousted (I will not comment on whether they belong in OU). There is a thread in PR talking about banning auto-weather entirely! That seems completely absurd to me! I really want to play in a metagame with all types of auto-weather. I would actually rather see a ban on Drizzle+Swift Swim than on half a dozen rain sweepers. Something really should be done to balance rain out a bit; I just don't like it. I guess I want a more diverse OU metagame than I am seeing.

half dozen is nothing. Let them burn in ubers.
Not that they'd have a problem there. Kingdra's a god everywhere it goes.

 

[voodoo pimp]

Rock is sands type.

Rock, ground, and steel, along with anything of other types with sand-related abilities, like Cacturne and Murando.

I think the main difference between sand and rain is that while rain has lots of potential abusers, sand only really has three (Doryuuzu, Landlos, arguably Garchomp).

 

[November Blue]

Masterful, you really need to tone it down.

I use reuniclus a lot and it's not as bulky as everyone is saying. It can't switch in on just anything, it gets 2HKOed by a lot of pokes and without multiple calm minds it can be walled by a fair amount of stuff (cresselia, jellicent, latias ect)

Oh, and latias does win calm mind wars. If you CM alongside it then roar it out randomly, it's not going to be able to take a +3/+4/+5 dragon pulse when it switches back in. A couple of people have said that phazing it does nothing because it can just switch back in and recover, but being roared out in this situation is extremely disadvantageous for the cell.

The trick roomer is worn down startlingly quickly too. Once your first trick room runs out, it becomes difficult to set up again if you've already taken a hit.

 

[Nanoswine]

Oh, and latias does win calm mind wars. If you CM alongside it then roar it out randomly, it's not going to be able to take a +3/+4/+5 dragon pulse when it switches back in. A couple of people have said that phazing it does nothing because it can just switch back in and recover, but being roared out in this situation is extremely disadvantageous for the cell.

Latias does not win Calm Mind wars. +1 Psycho Shock can 2HKO Latias , so if it decides to CM up after it switches in, you have a good chance of roaring it out (but the next time it comes in you are going to get killed), and a small chance of being 2HKOd.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

I think that Rain will not die out if Drizzle is banned.

I think that if Drizzle is banned, Rain will still be going strong with Tornadus and Thundurus to start it, and some people will attempt to use it in combination with Tail Glow Passing with Volbeat, but the latter's not very practical.

Last gen, Rain was not widespread, but that was before Mischievous Heart was invented, and Tornadus and Thundurus were invented. I think that Tornadus and Thundurus will be the "cloud" for many Rain team if Drizzle is banned. It won't be as widespread as it is now, but it'll be more used than it was in 4th Gen.

However, I disagree with Aldaron's proposal. I personally think we should just ban Drizzle.

I also agree that Deoxys should be given a proper test. I think it might be broken, but we should at least prove it outside of theorymon.

 

[Disposable Puppets]

In reguards to banning either the auto-weather or the abusers, I would almost always ban the auto-weather. In my opinion, I'd rather keep as many pokemon possible as possible.

As an example, in gen 4, Kingdra ran a set that consisted of Rain Dance, Waterfall, Hydro Pump, and Draco Meteor. It was very effective but not broken.

I can picture Kingdra running that same set this generation. I can also picture Excadrill running an effective set of sandstorm, return, rock slide, earthquake, with a life orb and being successful with it.

Again, I don't think auto-weather is broken, but if I had to chose between banning auto-weather and banning a pokemon, I'd rather ban the auto-weather. It is my belief that we should ban the least amount of pokemon possible.

Also on the whole Spiritomb argument, it just seems like stubbornness to me. If Reuniclus is a threat to your team, why are you being stubborn and not adding Spiritomb to your stall team? An example I will cite is Rotom-A vs Dusknoir. Rotom-A could almost do everything that Dusknoir did better, but Dusknoir could counter Machamp. For someone who needed a Machamp counter, Dusknoir was a consideration even though Rotom-A was better.

It's the same situation here. Sure Jellicent is better than Spiritomb but Spiritomb has the niche of countering one of stall's greatest problem pokemon, that alone is worth team slot conisderation to me. Just my two cents.

 

[TacoBot]

In reguards to banning either the auto-weather or the abusers, I would almost always ban the auto-weather. In my opinion, I'd rather keep as many pokemon possible as possible.

But removing auto-rain kills Rain Stall, an entire playstyle with Pokemon that wouldn't be used out of it such as Parasect. Ban the abusers I say. Only Kingdra and Ludicolo really need to go because they can still curbstomp in Ubers. Kabutops is manageable because it is frail: Mach Punch, Bullet Punch or Vacuum Wave will bring it down, or you can wall it. Priority also screws all the other ridiculously strong Swift Swimmers: the Shell Breakers. Everything else can be comfortably walled with Nattorei or something else.

If I were to choose between banning two Pokemon, nerfing a broken playstyle into manageable range, or banning an entire field effect which eliminates 2 playstyles (rain stall and rain balanced) and nerf another 1 (rain HO) while sending huge shockwaves into the metagame (the effects on Sun, Sand, Hail, and even non-weather), I think I pick the two Pokemon, especially since Game Freak highly intends for auto-weather to stick around as a field effect for their official meta (Doubles/Triples). I can bet that if we ban Drizzle now, we'll probably be having this exact same argument in Gen 6.

 

[alamaster]

In reguards to banning either the auto-weather or the abusers, I would almost always ban the auto-weather. In my opinion, I'd rather keep as many pokemon possible as possible.

As an example, in gen 4, Kingdra ran a set that consisted of Rain Dance, Waterfall, Hydro Pump, and Draco Meteor. It was very effective but not broken.

I can picture Kingdra running that same set this generation. I can also picture Excadrill running an effective set of sandstorm, return, rock slide, earthquake, with a life orb and being successful with it.

Again, I don't think auto-weather is broken, but if I had to chose between banning auto-weather and banning a pokemon, I'd rather ban the auto-weather. It is my belief that we should ban the least amount of pokemon possible.

Yeah but that basically comes down to either banning a few of the most broken pokemon in weather (Landlos, Dory, Kingdra, Manaphy, Ludicolo, Kabutops) or banning the ability which nerfs quite a lot more pokemon that have been given a second chance at being useful. You may be keeping more pokemon but the game will be less competitive since those pokemon won't be nearly as effective. I'd rather ban the few that are broken (not saying any of the above are broken, just those are the most talked about) than nerf even more because of an ability getting banned.

 

[TacoBot]

To anyone who wishes to use an overcentralisation argument:

This is Gen 5. We have over 600 Pokemon. OU generally consists of 50 Pokemon. About 20 or more are banished to Ubers by default. So 530+ Pokemon see less use because the metagame is more or less centralised around those 50 Pokemon.

Let's say OU consists only of those 50 Pokemon. Out of those 50, 30 or so are used because they are the best Pokemon. Pokemon like Blissey, Skarm, Tyranitar, Scizor, etcetera. The metagame is centralised around these extremely good Pokemon who aren't on the banlist, because they are more or less self-contained, checking/countering each other. Everything else in OU is just Pokemon that serve slightly less used niches. If you ban even one out of the 30, one of the other 29 remaining will become broken, and if you ban that, something else becomes broken, and the cycle continues. What will you do? Ban all 30 of them? You might say a specialised counter would rise from the depths of the remaining OU or even everything below, but what are the chances?

Hell, even playstyles. In card games, where you have hundreds and thousands of cards, at top level play it's not uncommon to see an extremely centralised metagame: You have the standard, ridiculously powerful, meta deck (Rain HO), the anti-meta deck (specialised anti-Rain team), and the anti-anti-meta deck (anything that beats specialised anti-Rain team). Granted we have more variety in the form of Sand Balance, but still.

Overcentralisation is bound to happen. We have so many Pokemon and so little see use in OU, which is like the metagame everyone and their mother cares about.

 

[alexwolf]

All Spiritomb has is a meh pursuit, and I don't know why the notion of having Deo-N brought down is being tossed around. It seems people have forgotten that 150/150/150 attacking stats are absurdly stupid and broken for some reason.

seriously what kind of reasoning is this??your first argument when reffering to spiritomb is a meh pursuit?this is all?a meh pursuit what?

you forgot to state that spiritomb is immune to psychic and neutral to ghost(since these are the pokes you will pursuit most of the time) while sporting very good defences,nice attack and stab on pursuit.he also has shadow sneak and sucker punch 2 good priority attacks...he can murder any attacking deoxys whenever he wants...he can also pp stall stone edges from roobushin with pressure and unlike burungeru he isn't weak to dark...he can also run a decent trickband set!!!that's a better quick explanation of spiritomb's pros...!i am not saying he is better than burungeru i am just pointing out his pros!a meh pursuit is not a statement...it's a waste of time and space!you are in a cometitive site where some people are discussing with real and serious arguments...you can't say things like that one above...

also your next well build argument is even more ridiculous and unreasoned...

It seems people have forgotten that 150/150/150 attacking stats are absurdly stupid and broken for some reason.

excuse me what?this was all?are you finished?
'cause i haven't made a single conclusion from what you said...you judge a pokemon solely from his attacking stats and speed?are you serious?by the same logic azumaril has crap attack cause it only has 50 base attack...is it true?no!breloom sucks balls as an attacker 'cause he may has 130 base attack but he only has 70 speed which is crap...is this true?no!i could continue forever but you get the point...

instead of writing the above phrase you could have explained how deoxys-n is a very powerful attacker 'cause of good movepool and priority...you could also try to refer to his defence(50,50,50)which means he dies to every priority after some life orb damage except mach punch(even from it if he has lost some more health).you could also mention that the only way to get him in is after a kill or in a healing move...you could also mention that he doesn't get some important ko's to some dedicated walls 'cause of the lack of a good stab...

because you think that deoxys-n is clearly uber doesn't mean that every other person here thinks the same...as you have already seen the smogon community is very divided about the tiering of deoxys-n...a lot of people,including me,think that the tiering of deoxys was very unreasoned 'cause of no actual playtesting with him with deoxys-a still unbanned...so if you want to prove and support an opinion of yours do it with actual arguments and not with useless posts...