np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

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These are just examples obviously, but they are valid nonetheless. If you account for Manaphy in your teambuilding (as you should if it ends up being a top threat), it should not be extremely difficult to take down, especially if it doesn't have Politoed's permaRain
Other than Shaymin and Lucario aren't particularly around, this is true. Without permanent rain, it does somewhat have to cripple it to one attacking move but then again, you could abuse Manaphy with things that take Latis like Tyranitar and Scizor since Manaphy again sets up it's own rain and short of knowing what spread it is, you might find yourself disappointed. Becasue Latios again only worked on a physical or balanced spread while the Special+Calm Mind eventually wins short of criticals on Specs while Lucario and others aren't even 2 hit koing Bold Manaphy without some sort of boost if it happens to be the other one.

And Manaphy can work on sun teams, sand teams etc setting up its own weather. It absorbs water fairly easily and most Manaphy's don't carry Energy Balls. It is still fairly broken without permanent weather.

There is no question of it being uber in permanent rain, despite what people say if it's a bulky variant.
 
Other than Shaymin and Lucario aren't particularly around, this is true. Without permanent rain, it does somewhat have to cripple it to one attacking move but then again, you could abuse Manaphy with things that take Latis like Tyranitar and Scizor since Manaphy again sets up it's own rain and short of knowing what spread it is, you might find yourself disappointed. Becasue Latios again only worked on a physical or balanced spread while the Special+Calm Mind eventually wins short of criticals on Specs while Lucario and others aren't even 2 hit koing Bold Manaphy without some sort of boost if it happens to be the other one.

And Manaphy can work on sun teams, sand teams etc setting up its own weather. It absorbs water fairly easily and most Manaphy's don't carry Energy Balls. It is still fairly broken without permanent weather.

There is no question of it being uber in permanent rain, despite what people say if it's a bulky variant.
Shaymin was rising in popularity late last gen, and I could definitely see it functioning this generation if you need a grass-type that, unlike Nattorei, is more offensively inclined and has great all-around stats. Lucario is less effective yes, but still viable.

And while Manaphy can use Tar and Scizor (like it did back in what, Stage 3-3?), the effectiveness of those two has also been reduced. ScarfTar is nowhere to be seen and other versions cannot deal with SpecsSurf, while Scizor is generally less effective due to the competition, IMO. And if Manaphy requires an amount of support similar to most other pokemon, I don't see it as being broken.

The fact that both you and I are bringing up valid points for either side is what points to Manaphy meriting a suspect test at the least.
 
Ya it gained a lot of new counters like voltlos and other heavy hitters like that.
Which is yet another plus to Calm Mind Manaphy. While Tail Glow is tempting (+6 in two turns? Nice!), Calm Mind can really add to its surviveability. If things like Voltlos switch in as it Calm Minds, Voltlos can not win (and it doesn't have Encore and can't paralyze it because of Hydration in rain) since +1 Rain boosted Surf kills Voltlos while Voltlos needs Life Orb to do over half damage to special defensive +1 Manaphy with Thunderbolt/Thunder (which Thunder does 70~ to +1 Calm Manaphy). Voltlos would still die even if something can come in and finish Manaphy off. And it still has to be a fairly strong attacker to ensure it before Manaphy rests (especially if it was Thunderbolt over Thunder).
 
Voltolos does have priority Taunt, which means Manaphy will likely be forced to switch out against whatever is brought in next (which can take a weak +1 Surf).

Also, being forced to provide rain support for Manaphy does lessen your options somewhat. Let's just test it outside of Drizzle (should it be banned) and see how it goes.
 
Voltolos does have priority Taunt, which means Manaphy will likely be forced to switch out against whatever is brought in next (which can take a weak +1 Surf).

Also, being forced to provide rain support for Manaphy does lessen your options somewhat. Let's just test it outside of Drizzle (should it be banned) and see how it goes.
In that example, it was assumed permanent rain since they said there were actual new counters to Manaphy (and in this case Manaphy in perma-rain).

And if Voltlos is switching in, Manaphy would either break its Sash or ohko it in that example so they just lost a pokemon. If they used Taunt (why after seeing Manaphy Calm Mind?) they're getting smacked for free and Manaphy is at full health.

We'd have to assume Drizzle is being banned (one could only hope) because there is no way Manaphy is staying in any game in permanent rain despite the quietness of complaints right now.
 

breh

強いだね
Seriously I have no fucking clue what you guys are talking about.

I run Choice Specs Voltolos. Most Manaphies are physically defensive. you do the math (fyi most CM variants NEVER surf).

(I.E. voltolos can handily counter manaphy)
 
Yeah cm versions pretty much never run special defense. However, with +! I doubt voltolos kos without thunder (prob strips off most with tbolt though). Anything faster will probably be able to come in and kill manaphy, but voltolos dies in the process. But if manaphy just rests...LO kills volt if he's running it. Yeah I should probably run some calcs...anyone know what evs standard cm manaphy runs? 252/252 bold, or does it run sp atk?
 
Also, being forced to provide rain support for Manaphy does lessen your options somewhat. Let's just test it outside of Drizzle (should it be banned) and see how it goes.
I don't see how sticking Politoed on your team lessens your options that much

plus, let's say drizzle isn't banned (which i hope to god is not the case) are we just going to say 'manaphy is OU but you can't use it in a rain team'? because that's kind of what i'm getting from your post
 
Seriously I have no fucking clue what you guys are talking about.

I run Choice Specs Voltolos. Most Manaphies are physically defensive. you do the math (fyi most CM variants NEVER surf).

(I.E. voltolos can handily counter manaphy)
What do Calm Mind Manaphy's run then? Boil Over? I Surf (ironically the Voltlos example is one I never realzed where Surf>Boil Over and I actually forgot Boil Over on Manaphy lol) and I love to switch between physcial and special defensive Manaphies (eat it Latios and Voltlos after Calm Mind and surviving Thunders before Calm Mind can sometimes really help) because it's bulk is ridiculous. And I am tinkering with the idea of Reflect/Acid Armor+Calm Mind in permanent rain. Manaphy does not die. Tyranitar switching in on Rest is annoying but it isn't going to come in while it's awake and isn't koing still. And Reflect gives other Swift Swimmers safer passage in...

I use 404 Hp/254Def/310 SDef. After Calm Mind, Voltlos is not ohkoing while Surf ohkoes back in rain. Oh wait, 404 Hp/310 Def/254 SDef and Calm Mind Voltlos Specs Thunder doesn't ohko (although anything that comes in after that is going to kill you). But Voltlos isn't always ohkoing either way.

I wonder if Tail Glow/Light Screen/Rest/Surf could work (although it needs SDef to avoid being 2 hit koed by Thunders). Maybe 252 hp/184Def/18 SAtk/56 SDef Bold (for some reason I apparently really like mono-water on Manaphy. Take out Burungeru/Water absorbers and you still win because it just doesn't die).

Yeah cm versions pretty much never run special defense. However, with +! I doubt voltolos kos without thunder (prob strips off most with tbolt though). Anything faster will probably be able to come in and kill manaphy, but voltolos dies in the process. But if manaphy just rests...LO kills volt if he's running it. Yeah I should probably run some calcs...anyone know what evs standard cm manaphy runs? 252/252 bold, or does it run sp atk?
Ironic, all my Calm Mind Manaphies run Special defense (the most defense Manaphy needs is 300<X<=310 to ensure standard Nattorei's don't 2 hit ko you with Power Whip and if they boost, it wouldn't matter much then)

I vary between 404 hp/310 Def/254 SDef, 404 hp/254 Def/310 SDef, and 401 Hp/240 Def/328 SDef on my Calm Mind Manaphys.

Choice Specs Latios Thunder has only a 10.78% chance of 2 hit koing max max Calm Mind Manaphy with +1. With 310 SDef +1, it has about 60.16% of 2 hit koing. That is a slight problem but the 328 SDef can set up on it after that first Calm Mind. If Latios does over half, you might switch. But it can definitely take Thunderbolts (Choice Specs Voltlos does 61.39% to 310 SDef after Calm Mind and 77.27% with Thunder and max SDef + Calm Mind took 58.42% from Specs Thunderbolt) and Thunders that are unstabbed.

I am also going to tinker with Calm Mind/Reflect/Surf/Rest. It seems like it will NOT die period. Reflect for physical attackers and Calm Mind saves it from special attackers.
 
I know my opinion holds roughly zero weight but I've just had something in the back of my mind as I read all this debating. I'll preface this with the fact that my computer runs Mac OS Leopard so I can't run Pokémon Online and so have been watching all of the Gen V stuff from the outside until Pokémon Lab comes back or Online sees fit to offer a non-Snow Leopard Mac option.

Anyway, I'm kind of a newcomer to competitive Pokémon anyway but looking back on the previous generations, I'm a little unsettled. For most of Gen IV the entire Uber tier was legendaries (who were built to be goofily overpowered) and a few wild cards (Wobuffet, Garchomp, etc). I was a little peeved by the placing of Salamence in Ubers and now looking at how we're approaching the new generation, it's even more odd.

It seems like we're very VERY quickly moving away from a Gen V simulation and towards the Gen IV meta with a few more Pokémon. The banhammer is being leveled against lots of things very very quickly. I could understand the swift banning of legendaries to get an idea of what the metagame is like, but all this immediate desire to ban weathers to get a stable metagame? If weather's so darn good, why isn't IT the stable metagame?

People complain that it's just a war to make one's weather win out, but what's wrong with that? It seems like the only complaint that can be leveled is that it's not exactly like Gen IV. I know I'm going to change any minds, but why is everyone so quick to eliminate anything that isn't perceived as OU? Shouldn't we let the things that are overused be...OU. I mean that's what it means. If Gen V is a battle of the weathers then that's that. We have legacy Gen IV servers if that's your cup of tea. Anyway, just my $0.02. Flame away.
 
I know my opinion holds roughly zero weight but I've just had something in the back of my mind as I read all this debating. I'll preface this with the fact that my computer runs Mac OS Leopard so I can't run Pokémon Online and so have been watching all of the Gen V stuff from the outside until Pokémon Lab comes back or Online sees fit to offer a non-Snow Leopard Mac option.

Anyway, I'm kind of a newcomer to competitive Pokémon anyway but looking back on the previous generations, I'm a little unsettled. For most of Gen IV the entire Uber tier was legendaries (who were built to be goofily overpowered) and a few wild cards (Wobuffet, Garchomp, etc). I was a little peeved by the placing of Salamence in Ubers and now looking at how we're approaching the new generation, it's even more odd.

It seems like we're very VERY quickly moving away from a Gen V simulation and towards the Gen IV meta with a few more Pokémon. The banhammer is being leveled against lots of things very very quickly. I could understand the swift banning of legendaries to get an idea of what the metagame is like, but all this immediate desire to ban weathers to get a stable metagame? If weather's so darn good, why isn't IT the stable metagame?

People complain that it's just a war to make one's weather win out, but what's wrong with that? It seems like the only complaint that can be leveled is that it's not exactly like Gen IV. I know I'm going to change any minds, but why is everyone so quick to eliminate anything that isn't perceived as OU? Shouldn't we let the things that are overused be...OU. I mean that's what it means. If Gen V is a battle of the weathers then that's that. We have legacy Gen IV servers if that's your cup of tea. Anyway, just my $0.02. Flame away.
Legendary =/= Uber
Look at Heatran,Azelf,Mesprit,Uxie,Cresselia,Shaymin,Regirock,Registeel,Regice,Regigas,
Moltres,Zapdos,Articuno,Entei,Suicune,Raikou,and the list goes on.

Garchomp was banned because Yache Berry made him stupidly hard to stop.
Mence was banned because Outrage + DD made him stupidly powerful.
Wobb was banned because he could either give any set up sweeper a free turn of set up,or he could kill any one of your mons with CounterCoat.
A mon is considered Uber when they are deemed too powerful for the OU tier.
Mons end up in OU for being used a LOT.
 
Legendary =/= Uber
Look at Heatran,Azelf,Mesprit,Uxie,Cresselia,Shaymin,Regirock,Registeel,Regice,Regigas,
Moltres,Zapdos,Articuno,Entei,Suicune,Raikou,and the list goes on.

Garchomp was banned because Yache Berry made him stupidly hard to stop.
Mence was banned because Outrage + DD made him stupidly powerful.
Wobb was banned because he could either give any set up sweeper a free turn of set up,or he could kill any one of your mons with CounterCoat.
A mon is considered Uber when they are deemed too powerful for the OU tier.
Mons end up in OU for being used a LOT.
I understand that, I just feel like we're banishing lots of things to Uber a lot faster than usual. That's all. I'm not saying only legendaries should be Uber, I'm just saying how do we know what too powerful for OU is before we have OU? Weather like this may be too powerful for Gen IV OU, but maybe weather just IS Gen IV OU. I dunno, maybe I'm not making sense.
 
I understand that, I just feel like we're banishing lots of things to Uber a lot faster than usual. That's all. I'm not saying only legendaries should be Uber, I'm just saying how do we know what too powerful for OU is before we have OU? Weather like this may be too powerful for Gen IV OU, but maybe weather just IS Gen IV OU. I dunno, maybe I'm not making sense.
OU right now is basically everything that isn't Uber ATM :/
BL,UU,and NU are still not defined,but we can still tell what should be Uber by how it handles the currently most used mons and strategies and how it can be stopped.
 
I understand that, I just feel like we're banishing lots of things to Uber a lot faster than usual. That's all. I'm not saying only legendaries should be Uber, I'm just saying how do we know what too powerful for OU is before we have OU? Weather like this may be too powerful for Gen IV OU, but maybe weather just IS Gen IV OU. I dunno, maybe I'm not making sense.
Everything available right now will either be banned or allowed in Gen V OU, so this meta is a perfect place to test rain, which is already being done
 
dang...peaked at 1374, but just couldn't cut it. With the server crashing I think I'm done. Someone just ban Drizzle and Manaphy. Do it for all the little people out there!

edit: 1386
 
Right. So nominations begin tomorrow, and I'm wondering where everyone stands on suspects, given that this round has been largely dominated by Drizzle vs. SwSw vs. Drizzle + SwSw, etc. Particularly what people are feeling about last round's suspects.

Doryuuzu: I'm not feeling suspect status on this one at all, and it is an example of early hype being unfounded as simple preparation helps you deal with it. OU.

Latios: Again, I don't think this one is anything special. It's Draco Meteor is strong (but then, what Draco Meteor isn't), and while it has decent bulk it can't take hits all day. OU.

Manaphy: To repeat my statement from earlier, I honestly think that if you are actually interested in the best metagame rather than getting rid of what you don't like in particular, you would abstain from voting on Manaphy this round. There is simply too much debate and discussion revolving around Drizzle, Manaphy's most crucial element of support, to vote on Manaphy.

Drizzle: Despite my support for the no Drizzle + SwSw, I think banning Drizzle is the way to go, as it would have largely the same effect. No one is going to run Politoed when there are no abusers around to pair it with; there are better ways to check Sand (and let's be real, the only remotely threatening Sand abusers are Dory and Landlos, the other "abusers" merely don't take passive damage). Drizzle arguably breaks Swift Swim, it arguably breaks Manaphy, and far outclasses the other weathers. The fact is that even in Gen 4, 8-turn Rain could hold its own against infinite sand if played well, and Politoed's mediocrity otherwise is the only reason the two are relatively even now.

I honestly believe that Manaphy and Drizzle are the only things of concern this time around. We already got rid of the "Big 3," Shaymin-S, Deoxys-A, and Darkrai. Deoxys-N fell under the same boat as Deoxys-A for good reason. Doryuuzu and Latios didn't even make a simple majority (and none of the aforementioned suspects had a particular impact on their effectiveness). Garchomp wasn't even mentioned and Latias is nowhere to be seen. Manaphy is so closely tied with Drizzle that a simultaneous vote would be foolish - I would hate to keep Manaphy on the premise that Drizzle is going, only for Drizzle to stay, and the opposite is true.
 
How many pokemon are broken in rain, without theorymonning based literally solely on the experience you have recieved battling this month.
 
How many pokemon are broken in rain, without theorymonning based literally solely on the experience you have recieved battling this month.
I'm assuming this is directed at me:

-Kingdra: Dragon + Water is great coverage, and is resisted only by Empoleon and Nattorei (I run the latter). With no recovery outside of Leech Seed, Nattorei is getting shut down - Kingdra literally has no need to even use Draco Meteor in the rain, 3HKOing most versions of Nattorei and nuking the water-type switch-ins. How is this different from Kingdra in 8-turn rain? I can lure a Draco Meteor by switching in a bulky water, go to Nattorei to take it, and force Kingdra out, having used up 4 turns of rain at least (one for setup, one for the switch to kingdra, one for the switch to water, one for the switch to nattorei, one for kingdra switching out) and allowing me to formulate a comeback. In Drizzle, Kingdra will switch out for free and repeat until I can't stop it any longer with its most solid check.

-Ludicolo: Impeccable coverage with Water + Grass + Ice, and it isn't even stopped by Nattorei or Blissey if running FP / FB. It has considerably more special bulk than most other rain sweepers and weaknesses to types that are nearly unseen offensively. It hits nearly as hard as Kingdra does but doesn't reduce its SpA to deal with opposing water types and can even do a strange offensive SubSeed paired with Surf + Ice Beam (which it would not be able to pull off nearly as effectively in 8-turn rain). I only came across the latter once but it was highly effective. Remember that with Giga Drain, it WILL stay healthy throughout the match.

-Kabutops: This is to Rain what SDLuke was to 4th gen, if not better. In rain, it has the equivalent of STAB CC, access to that same SD, priority that is actually superior to Extremespeed (and that is rarely needed with its blistering speed), or a Fighting attack to compliment its alternative STAB (which is highly effective). I run Gliscor over Roobushin to deal with Dory, so I lack fighting-type priority on my team. Obviously I have the most difficulty with SD / Stone Edge / Waterfall / Low Kick, which can blow past Nattorei as easily as Ludicolo.

Really, this trio is the most deadly. They are threatening individually, but when put together their typing complement one another almost perfectly. Kingdra's lone weakness is Dragon, and with a spread of 28 HP / 252 SpA / 228 Spe Modest it manages to outpace Timid ScarfLatios aka it has no weaknesses. Ludicolo's weaknesses are very rarely seen, with U-Turn being the only remotely commonly used one out of Poison / Flying / Bug offensively and thus being the only one you really need to cover (especially since Poison / Flying do shit to Kabutops). Kabutops is the only one with the traditional water weaknesses to Electric and Grass. Literally, Politoed / Kingdra / Tops / Ludi / Zapdos / Nattorei leaves you with a resistance to every type and is very solid.

Other threats I've come across are Shell Break Gorebyss (who I often just attack right off the bat to prevent a SB sweep, but who can easily choose to attack right off the bat), Omastar, Qwilfish, and a few other rare appearances.

Then of course there is Manaphy (who is only slightly less threatening than Kingdra in rain, IMO), who I've gone into detail with. Ban Drizzle and all the SwSw can be dealt with. Ban Swift Swim and you get the same result as if you were to ban Drizzle. Ban Kingdra + Ludi + Kabutops and something will rise to fill the slot. Drizzle is the one that has to go, IMO.
 
So your basing a Drizzle ban of the theory that things will replace the 3 before mentioned pokemon and be efficient enough to also be deemed broken.

The post was directed to everyone not explicitly you Icyman.

To leave off, are even 10 pokemon worth keeping if an ability does not break the remaining rest of the pokemon in the game?
You said 4 pokemon are broken , Kingdra,Ludi,tops, Manaphy. You gave 3 threats at current, Gorybess,Omastar, Quilfish.

Simply put. If out of 649 pokemon Drizzle breaks 10 or even less, Drizzle sure as hell isn't broken.
The 4 pokemon maybe the 3 threats too if we suspect them too should be banned should they not?
Why ban an effect that doesn't break what 639 (Not exact) pokemon.
 
I haven't really been playing lately, but here's an idea. Below, I'll list 20 Pokemon that can benefit from rain. People can then just point out which of these guys are actually broken in rain. Not just helped, but "broken".

Manaphy, Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, Floatzel, Qwilfish, Gorebyss, Omastar, Poliwrath, Vaporeon, Toxicroak, Nattorei, Scizor, Starmie, Gyarados, Empoleon, Magnezone, Rotom-W, Cloyster, Suicune

Maybe that'll get people somewhere.
 
To leave off, are even 10 pokemon worth keeping if an ability does not break the remaining rest of the pokemon in the game?

Why ban an effect that doesn't break what 639 (Not exact) pokemon.
Why ban Inconsistent? It only broke Octillery and Bibarel. And after all, 2/649 is an incredibly small number.

The reason is because it was broken. It doesn't matter how many things it breaks. We simply shouldn't have a metagame rife with broken things.
 
Honestly, I felt no need to ladder in this crap meta with Drizzle, as after this test (hopefully) Drizzle will be gone, and there will only be less broken things (but still broken) like Latios, Doryuuzu, and the like
 
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