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Metagame np: PU Stage 4 - October All Over (Throh Remains Banned!)

Discussion in 'ORAS PU' started by Magnemite, Nov 3, 2015.

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  1. Magnemite

    Magnemite
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    [​IMG]
    banner by brightobject


    So yeah this tier shift means quite a bit more than your regular one. PU is now official and that's way more important than the periodic sliding doors that tier shifts are (though the flux has been quite one sided for a while). For the first time in a while, we've lost nothing, but we've gained Pawniard, Gorebyss, Bouffalant, Exeggutor, and Gothitelle, 3 of which are returning to PU after stints in NU. I want to say thank you to all who contributed with posts, analyses, and chat presence but also to anybody who even stopped by reading these forums or simply played a few ladder games. I mean this song isnt related to drops or whatever in any way its just that October passed and its a big turning point or w/e

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    In any case here are the usual potential discussion topics blablabla
    • New Stage - If there are tier shifts, make some predictions on what the metagame will be like or comment on the changes
    • Suspect Testing - If you believe that anything is worthy of a suspect test, post about it and why you think it deserves a suspect test. (nothing will be chosen as a suspect until at least two weeks in though, if even that)
    • Metagame trends - What are the most common or effective strategies? Are there any Pokemon that you think will rise in usage?
    • Top threats - What should the main priorities be when considering a team for PU?
    • Playstyles - Which are most effective? Are there any that cannot succeed?
    • Cores - What are some popular or solid cores? Why do they work so well, and what can be used to beat them?
    • Underrated Pokemon - Just because a Pokemon isn't used much doesn't mean its bad! There are plenty of hidden gems scattered throughout low PU and FU, and possibly even Little Cup!
    • New sets - If you have a unique set that you've had success with recently, share it.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2015
  2. Swagodile

    Swagodile

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    The arrival of Pawniard makes Spikes-stacking teams even better, as it deters balanced/defensive teams from using Defog. I'm not so sure it'll be a very healthy addition to the tier, but I guess we'll see.
  3. Tect

    Tect

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    Oh, how broken I thought ape would be. Thank god we aren't faced with that dilemma. But we are faced with other looming threats. Eggy's drop has certainly thrown a kink into things, making sun teams viable once again while severly threatening common cores in this meta (reli/rose, sol/rose etc). Pawn's presence un-paired with an expected Primeape drop also seems a bit scary, as I think a fighter dropping in tandem with our little broken chess piece would have eased some concerns. With that said, we have some decent checks/counters to Pawniard that aren't hard to fit on teams. But guess what?, Eggy destroys all those. Guys, I'm scared.
  4. ShuckleDeath

    ShuckleDeath

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    Looking at Exeggutor, it looks like it has the stats and Movepool of a Metagame changing Mon. it's speed might hold it back but it is looking as though a Chlorophyll set may be Viable. also with the Fall (and expected Rise to the top of the viability rankings) of pawniard it looks as tho sets and Viability will be changed all together. Pawnaird is a huge threat to offense meaning teams will be forced to run slower bulky Mons, which might lead way as Eggy being one of the best wallbreakers we've seen to date. also with my expectations of the increase in bulky Mons we will see a spike in stoutland, not to mention Bouffalant.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  5. galbia

    galbia I'm gonna show you where it's dark, but have no fear
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    Oh and i forgot, since this time around something in the tier actually changed, can you refrain from asking for suspect tests for at least a week? :)

    If there is something so obviously broken that it doesnt even deserve a week the council will for sure notice it guys.

    Have fun with the new toys.

    Also Gothithelle actually has half decent stats lol it might be even better than D rank :
    DouglasFalcon, slurmz, Akir and 2 others like this.
  6. Megazard

    Megazard TOO MANY WEEB GIFS
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    Sawsbuck stands out as a decent looking mon. Megahorn and Jump Kick for eggy and pawn, jolly scarf beats +2 gorebyss even when timid and it has either sap sipper or chlorophyll to annoy eggy. Not exited for a potentially fucked up meta during seasonal but nice to have at least some drops. Just some mobile thoughts.
    2xTheTap likes this.
  7. gasquakee

    gasquakee

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    [​IMG]
    hold me back (Exeggutor) @ Colbur Berry
    Ability: Harvest
    EVs: 72 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Leaf Storm
    - Psyshock
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    - Sleep Powder

    Like a lot of colbur mons I used to use this spawned from my hate for Pawniard. The speed outspeeds Roselia, Golem, and Armaldo also other things that would normally outspeed 0 speed Exeggutor but isn't specifically creeped for like Pelipper. I'm not sure how good this will actually be but me and Magnemite played a game and it did pretty well(Our Exeggutor's were basically just trading kills, actually).

    So, yeah, Exeggutor looks good and I think this set could be a potential lure for Pawniard.
    Mael, hoblaph, slurmz and 12 others like this.
  8. Dundies

    Dundies
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    Really excited for these shifts, and I think things are looking up for the tier. I was mainly excited about getting Cryogonal, but I guess we might have to wait until next shift. I think Pawniard, Gorebyss, Exeggutor, and Bouffalant are going to be huge for the tier, and I think spikestack is still going to dominate, especially now that we have Pawniard. Gothitelle looks like it's honestly still outclassed by Grumpig, Kadabra, and Mr. Meme, but Competitive might be a thing I'll have to try out. Just first thoughts, now to have some fun :toast:
    slurmz, Peli and Tect like this.
  9. ManOfMany

    ManOfMany

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    I have a feeling Webs are gonna be really good again. Along with Pawniard preventing Defog, and being able to sweep with a SD under webs, Gorebyss being unable to be revenge-killed under webs by several scarfers at +2, and maybe even Gothitelle, it is looking very dangerous.

    http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-pu-289289810
    Here's a battle showcasing its capabilities vs Raiza, although he was using a gimmick team
  10. Magnemite

    Magnemite
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    I've tried webs out a bit, and Eggy is also ridiculous on them. The main issue I have with them is that it's really hard to fit good Pawniard checks; Stunfisk works but it can't switch in and is a huge momentum killer. Relicanth is in the same boat too. So while webs are better, they're still not the greatest.

    Also I'll make a big post talking about each of the drops once i've used them enough
    slurmz, gasquakee and ManOfMany like this.
  11. Swagodile

    Swagodile

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    With Competitive, even Meowstic-F looks like it'd be better.

    Gothitelle: 70 / 55 / 95 / 95 / 110 / 65
    Meowstic-F: 74 / 48 / 76 / 83 / 81 / 104

    It's slightly weaker, but much faster.
  12. 2xTheTap

    2xTheTap HOOP there it is
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    In response to Pawniard being usable again, I see Monferno becoming even more effective given it outspeeds Pawniard's Sucker Punch with its own priority in Mach Punch. Forcing out Pawniard with Monferno also gives it a chance to set up with SD or gain momentum via U-Turn, so I predict that Monferno will be used more often.

    252+ Atk Iron Fist Monferno Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 220-264 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

    Coincidentally, Monferno also does well against the other drops. For example, its STAB Close Combat outspeeds and OHKOes 172 HP Bouffalant after SR damage (172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe Adamant Bouff hits 167 Speed and beats Pelipper / Roselia for reference):

    252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Bouffalant: 320-378 (85.5 - 101%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Similarly, while it is not able to switch in directly, Monferno is able to check and force out Exeggutor with Flare Blitz (or severely maul it with U-Turn and gain momentum in the process):

    252+ Atk Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor: 354-416 (101.4 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Monferno U-turn vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor: 272-324 (77.9 - 92.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Life Orb Monferno U-turn vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor: 354-421 (101.4 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    If you're stuck fighting against Exeggutor in Sun, Jolly Scarf Monferno (430 Speed total) also outspeeds and OHKOes +2 Modest 252 Spe Exeggutor (418) with a Sunny Day boosted Flare Blitz.

    This is honestly only scratching the surface, and have only spoken briefly about Monferno in reference to 3 drops. So, much more to come. :]
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
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  13. Dundies

    Dundies
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    I also think physically defensive Stunfisk will be big in checking Pawniard and Monferno alike, but I feel like sun is going to be pretty good now as well. While we won't have the super broken Victreebel of course, Exeggutor is pretty amazing in sun, so I await to see how that will go. I could see normal spam making a big comeback as well, maybe with banded Stoutland, Substitute + SD Bouffalant, and Scarfed Chatot for cleaning.
    2xTheTap likes this.
  14. Sir Kay

    Sir Kay to be continued...
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    Honestly we might start having weather wars on our hands. Sand has always been good, and with more threats in the meta teams have less room to bring up to 2 normal resists, so stoutland can start having some better match ups into teams. Sun got the obvious boost in Exeggutor who is honestly what I think will show itself to be a metagame driving force. And rain also got something that I haven't seen a lot of hype around yet, they now have Gorebyss. With Swift Swim it now gives rain something new to play around with. And with a boost these 3 weather play styles, we might be having ourselves a bit more weather.
    cryalot and gasquakee like this.
  15. Magnemite

    Magnemite
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    Hi so now that I've had the chance to try the drops out for a while, I'll talk a bit about what I think of each one.


    [​IMG]

    Pawniard is pretty dumb in all honesty, it has a decent amount of checks, but they're all easy to wear down, making it an absurd late game sweeper. However, if you look past how annoying it is, it actually provides a lot of healthy qualities to the meta. It does well against a lot of mons that were problematic before, including Linoone, Dodrio, and Vigoroth, while providing priority that helps deal with faster threats and a nice way of combatting Memento (though it doesn't like being put to sleep at all obviously). It also gives the tier another Stealth Rock user and Pursuit trapper, so those roles are a bit easier to fulfill now. While it's hard to say if Pawniard's overall impact on the meta will be positive, it at least won't be the worst influence on the tier ever.

    [​IMG]

    Exeggutor was the mon everyone was calling broken immediately once they saw it dropped, but I think it will be perfectly manageable like it was back in August. While it is a huge nuke, there are a few counters for bulkier teams to use like SpD Vullaby and Zweilous. It's really slow (even under webs it's underwhelmingly slow), so offensive teams shouldn't have a huge issue with it especially since it's pretty easy to Pursuit trap (unless you're running gasquakee's set which is honestly really good). However, it's still really good, especially on teams where its Speed can be patched up (Eggy sun looks pretty silly), and its insane wallbreaking power coupled with a few other things like access to Sleep Powder and Harvest make it a great Pokemon from the looks of things.

    [​IMG]

    Bouffalant is a really cool mon. In particular, the Sub + SD set that was its best before it rose to NU back February is really good. Its great bulk lets it set up on a lot of passive mons like Stunfisk and Probopass, and Sap Sipper lets it easily set up on Tangela and Choice-locked Exeggutor, among other things. Sub lets it eat up a hit from a would-be revenge killer which is really awesome. The coolest thing about Bouffalant is that it can easily get past most conventional Normal checks with Earthquake / Sap Sipper, making it really good on Normal spam teams. Like literally every other drop, its Speed is its biggest flaw, but it's so bulky that it isn't a huge deal.

    [​IMG]

    Gorebyss is probably the drop I'm the most torn on. On one hand, it's absurdly strong, capable of 2HKOing full SpD Politoed without a Life Orb, and it's decently bulky, especially with Memento support (for example it can live a Flare Blitz + Close Combat from Eviolite Monferno). However, it's really slow, so slow in fact that literally every relevant scarfer can outspeed it at +2. This means it's really easy for offensive teams to deal with it, and even balance teams are decently well off against it as they can fit any scarfer they want and still be able to beat it. I've heard some people calling for this to be broken, but I don't really see it.

    [​IMG]

    Finally, we have easily our most underwhelming drop, Gothitelle. There isn't much this can do that isn't done better by Grumpig or Mr. Mime, as it just lacks anything useful that they don't already have, while also not posessing some of the things that make them good. There might be some unique niche it has (it's quite bulky and Competitive is a good ability on paper), but right now I'm just not seeing it.


    So yeah, this meta is pretty fun, and it's really nice to finally start getting drops again. Feel free to reply to this post if you disagree with anything I've said about these Pokemon (especially if you can find something interesting Gothitelle can do), and have fun playing PU!
  16. Rcheez

    Rcheez

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    There should definitely be a suspect test for leavanny, leafeon and floatzel. Practically every PU team has at least one of these mons and they are becoming more relevant through time. They would even be threats in NU, countering bulky monsters such as Kabutops, Samurott, Sandslash and Regirock. Smogon PLEASE do a suspect test for these, they need to be done.

    One last thing: How do you insert pictures of the pokemon and where do you get the images?
    Thanks :P
  17. Peli

    Peli name elevated but i still act average
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    Hi, as mentioned before suspects will not take place for at least a week. A Pokemon's viability in the NU tier does not matter at all if it gets suspected or not.

    Edit: When making rate my teams I find this site is a good source for sprites
  18. Magnemite

    Magnemite
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    Also those Pokemon are nowhere near broken, and Floatzel is the only one of them that's even particularly good at the moment.
  19. HJAD

    HJAD sitting with the substance to add some depth to his vision
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    So, after ravaging my way through all of Gothitelles movepool, I believe I have found a "niche" for this Mon:
    [​IMG]
    Gothitelle @ Leftovers
    Ability: Competitive
    EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Mean Look
    - Calm Mind
    - Psychic
    - Rest

    Let's be honest here. Gothitelle isn't gonna be setting PU on fiya with its powerful base stats and pwr. It isn't remotely close to the Mon it is with Shadow Tag, however, this set attempts to encapsulate its former magic which warranted shadow tag's ban in UU. This set is to be primarily used on Webs teams, and to abuse oppurtuinities, by trapping Pokémon like Stunfisk turn 1, possibly Exeggutor trying to switch in, as well as typical special tanks. Stuff like Lickilicky, which people often assume can just come in and eat up Gothitelles hits, it can use for fodder thanks to its OK Physical Bulk, access to Mean Look, Rest and CM, which allows it to settup to +6 / +6 and severely pressure the rest of the opponents team. The reason I said this Mon works most effectively in Sticky Web teams is because it can provide a dual utility. Not only is it able to trap these annoying, passive walls, that just disrupt your offense team and its momentum, but its second utility is that if can act as a Defog detterent which many people will say is extremely useful on Sticky Web Offense. It means that a Pelipper may think twice before mindlessly clicking Defog, since a +2 Gothitelle may force your opponent to either sack something, or sack their Pelipper. Either way, you are gaining momentum for your cleaning core to do work.
    As for the EVs; Max HP to abuse passive walls like Lickilicky and Stunfisk easily, no pressure from them possibly 3HKO'ing Goth, with or without critical hits. 220 Spe Timid Nature is enough for Gothitelle to outspeed Zebstrika / Floatzel in Webs, which allows it to pressure opponents much more effectively, since it is less under threat by Floatzel in particular to be revenge killed by a possible Choice Band set. The 36 remaining EVs are dumped into Defense. The reason?

    0 Atk Vullaby Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Gothitelle: 96-114 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- 74.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 Atk Vullaby Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Gothitelle: 86-104 (25 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    you only beat Vullaby 1v1 by PP stalling it to death.
    Now, that may only happen twice in a few hundred matches, but its nice to know it will literally run its way through a passive Mon, even if it has to resort to PP stalling the Mon, which it is perfectly capable of doing.

    On a side note, it also likes Screens / Memento support so it can trap a greater variety of mons and use them for fodder as well as pressure the defoggers which try and remove screens , but then, what mon doesn't like that kind of support.

    In conclusion, Gothitelle is definately going to be overlooked and for good reason, look at the amount of support that's required, the amount of Pawniard that will get free SD's and the rarity of the situations where this set will actually pay dividends. But it has a niche. And if you want a stall breaking / trapping / ppstalling Psychic Type Mon that does especially well at deterring defogs and outspeed a chunk of mons in Webs, maybe Gothitelle is right up your ally.

    r.i.p Vullaby users 2k15
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  20. gasquakee

    gasquakee

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    Hey dude you look new to Smogon so I'll point a small thing out. It's cool you voiced your opinion! You shouldn't be afraid to do that; But while you're making an argument for a suspect test or why something is broken I'd read the thread first to look over the guidelines. Also, a Pokemon's ability to do well in the tier that you'd be banning it to isn't an argument for a test; Bans aren't related to the viability of the Pokemon in the next tier above. Bans should be for the healthiness of this metagame. Welcome to Smogon!

    PS: You insert images with the button that looks like a sun and a mountain and just put in the URL.
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  21. Magnemite

    Magnemite
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  22. trc

    trc mon frère
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    it's the real reason why exeggutor is broken.

    additionally, i was going to talk about these pokemon but i'll use them a bit more first, however i've built heaps of teams so if you want a test game challenge me on ps. also smh at hjad stealing the set i was going to post, i just used it against magnemite unaware that it was already posted here but it is really good and definitely has a niche, the biggest draw for me is the bulk which is honestly insane, i have soom cool evs for it which allow me to set up on a bunch of the meta but i'll test different ones first before posting it.
    slurmz likes this.
  23. Funbot28

    Funbot28

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  24. Magnemite

    Magnemite
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    because it's broken :(
  25. gasquakee

    gasquakee

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    It's just Magnemite and Dundies doing what Magnemite and Dundies do: Luck.
    Based Honker, nv, cryalot and 5 others like this.
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