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Metagame np: PU Stage 5 - Movin' On Up (Vigoroth and Exeggutor are BANNED)

Discussion in 'ORAS PU' started by galbia, Dec 4, 2015.

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  1. GeneralAnnoyance

    GeneralAnnoyance

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    Vigoroth: It's been a long time coming. I feel as though this vote will be unanimous and with good reason. Sub Vigoroth is pretty specially bulky while still being able to bulk up on many physical threats in the tier and win. Sub allows it to sponge crits, avoid knock offs, avoid status, and beat close combat/superpower users by spamming sub until the opposing mon is ready to be terminated. Vigoroth puts a tremendous amount of pressure on building as well as mon usage in game. Say I don't wanna run a ghost type, so I run guts machoke instead. Now, i'm forced to save machoke for vigoroth all game until my opponent decides to bring vig out. So he subs on my switch to choke, cc breaks, subs again, rinse, repeat. The only way to avoid this is to run encore choke (which I actually like a lot) and encore the bulk up after switching into a sub. However, even this doesn't work 100% as vigoroth can just frustration you right off the bat from sub and you end up encoring a frustration.

    In this replay I was testing Vigoroth to demonstrate a mispredict on the encore. Showing that even from full, machoke can potentially lose this match up while running a moveset tailored to beat vigoroth. If rocks were up, there is a good chance that I'd have lost Choke. Basically, run a ghost type or a very healthy dpunch choke to handle vigoroth. I don't think that's fair to impose on every team.
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-303648985

    In this next clip I decided to test with Pawniard vs Vig on the switch. As a steel type with access to SD, you'd think it'd be able to take down a mono stab normal type. This isn't the case though.
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-303654730

    Shout out cityfolk for testing with me. ManOfMany too even though I didn't use our replays.

    Exeggutor: I am really not a fan of this mon. I feel as though it really forces players to run HO teams to beat it as it destroys slow teams with sleep powder and its coverage. It has very little switch-ins that aren't easily broken by repeated rocks switch ins, sleep powder, or knock off from a teammate. It has pushed the tier very strongly in the direction of HO as Tap mentioned further up the thread and changed the roles and movesets of a lot of staple mons just to accommodate it (rip spdef rose). Of all these, I think the biggest problem with exeggutor is the strong push toward a single playstyle while strongly discouraging the use of others. A single mon should not have that effect on the meta. I realize that this push may be the cause of the introduction of pawniard and others such as bouffalant, but these mons have definite counters that serve other purposes than just walling those mons (see zweilous). Eggy is different in the fact that because of its set versatility, it very often doesn't get walled. Therefore, the only way play around it is to run faster more offensive teams.

    Dpunch: I don't think that this move is on the same level of suspect status as the mons mentioned. It is annoying. It is uncompetitive. I do have dozens of replays of me taking souls with it. But I don't think that dpunch is what is really hurting this meta at the moment. I think that after a possible suspect of these mons it might be something to discuss further, but seeing how the current meta is so fast, I really haven't noticed dynamic punch machoke as being a problem.
    Boyeraj17 and cityfolk like this.
  2. Megazard

    Megazard Who knows what secrets lie in the hearts of men?
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    I agree with the suspect choices, but this reasoning just seems off in a few different places.
    Why is this a bad situation? You're beating the Vigoroth, aren't you? If I run a Machoke because I'm weak to Vigoroth and Machoke gets knocked to 10% because of defense drops but Vigoroth goes down, where's the downside? Plus it could be Dpunch and this problem wouldn't exist. I can't tell if I'm misreading your post, but why is this a bad thing at all.

    First of all, is Encore really that relevant or good of a Machoke set? Especially now that Ice Punch is a much better option that has serious competition with Thunderpunch again thanks to Altaria and some other trends, do you want to drop coverage/priority for Encore on your strong wallbreaker? And that situation wouldnt have been an issue if Cityfolk had just CC'd from the start, predicting you to just get off a Frustration and switch (assuming a real game) because who bulks up on a Machoke. This is a really fake situation.

    I don't know what the speed of the meta really has to do with Dpunch, nor do I agree that because it's not the most broken thing we should ignore it for now. This post basically says "it's not as bad as Vigoroth/Eggy so we can leave it" but why not get rid of it? Dpunch is a move that allows a worse player to beat a better one just like that. Machoke also has Cross Chop and Guts, two perfectly viable alternatives. I just don't see why leave it because other things outwardly seem worse.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2015
  3. galbia

    galbia deep mayo
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    I mean dpunch is even more of a luck based move on non-Machoke Pokemon
    Lord Death Man, Pak, cryalot and 7 others like this.
  4. GeneralAnnoyance

    GeneralAnnoyance

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    After sub, Vig gets a free frustration/bulk up on Machoke. It then gets to switch out after it breaks or continue to sub until in can take machoke out after the def drops. Running an encore set on machoke is to stop setup sweepers. The point of the replay was to show that mispredicting one turn allows vig to nearly beat a mon that should win against it. I suppose a replay of machoke close combatting a sub until really low def and then being taken out would also prove the point that is vigoroth can take out even a mon that should be able to stop it. Dpunch choke would win vs vig, but this still doesnt account for repeated switch ins vs returns. The point is really just to prove that Vig can easily wear down mons that, on paper, should win vs it.

    Encore has become less relevant vs the new drops. This is true. Duosion and Clef have near disappeared. I still run it on a lot of my machokes because I'm fairly certain a vig will win vs cc choke by just subbing continuously. So, you encore them into bulk or sub assuming that they know that they win if the keep lowering chokes defense.

    It terms of dynamic punch, I suppose I could do a better job to clarify on that. The presence of exeggutor has influenced the usage of machoke because monferno has proven to be a more suitable offensive fighting type to handle both it and pawniard. Because you wouldn't want to stack weaknesses, it'd be unwise to run both on the same team, so naturally you'd choose monferno to handle both of these huge threats. I feel as though waiting to suspect dpunch is better because it'll get a more fair suspect where the presence of Exeggutor won't influence its usage quite as much. So no, I didn't mean to come across as,"It's not as bad, guys." I just think the meta would be quite different without the two mentioned mons above. As one promotes the use of dpunch and the other promotes the use of a different fighting mon.
  5. marilli

    marilli two, but one.
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    From an outside looking into the pu meta i feel like vigoroth doesn't just beat defensive teams, even though it does beat them very easily. It bothers me because it feels like you guys just make this oversimplification without considering how much it does to offensive teams, too. It also takes wayy too little from just about any physical attacker and sets up on a huge majority of physical wallbreakers. That's insane considering you are whittle-1-pokemon away from 6-0ing defensive teams. Similarly, a lot of special attackers cannot break vigoroth, either, unless you're a huge nuke like Exeggutor leaf storm (which you can sub and switch out next turn), or relying on terrible move called focus blast. What makes it worse is that the said non-Exeggutor special attackers who are strong enough to take down vigoroth are also too frail to take an unboosted frustration / body slam from vigoroth more than twice. So Vigoroth just simply gets an easy sub on just about any physical attacker, and makes unpreventable progress even against offensive teams. Ghost types are very workaroundable and they actually can't really threaten vigoroth because of choice of sub / taunt, it just becomes a deadlock which the Vigoroth player will certainly prepare for and actively exploit. In fact, in just about any non-hyper offensive teams, vigoroth so good I struggle to find a reason not to put this guy on every team. Isn't this a problem?

    I mean you guys wanted to drop a banned mon just to check vigoroth for which its biggest (still flawed) anti-ban argument hinged on the fact that it's holding the tier together against certain broken threats, all but 1 (vigoroth) have also left, that sounds really ass-backwards and you guys could have just saved a bunch of time by suspecting vigoroth instead, it's almost like keeping xerneas be in OU and retesting aegislash so it can check it, but I guess this is none of my business!
  6. galbia

    galbia deep mayo
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    Throh was not tested because we needed a Vigoroth answer but because we felt like the metagame had developed around a lot of Pokemon able to beat it such as Psychic and Flying types that have been growing in popularity in the past months + the idea it was just a slightly better Machoke but in the end it wasn't really the case with it (I am still not sure if not unbanning was the best decision but probably something that will be rediscussed in the future). Vigoroth wasn't suspected at that time because the metagame post drops was very very offensive and Vigoroth ended up being a little bit worse overall (think about Pawniard and Monferno being on half teams and a lot of entry hazards) that it went overlooked to an extend and we just decided to talk about it on a later date which is soon after we deal with Dynamicpunch. I completely agree on Vigoroth being absolutely bad in the tier at its current state by the way so yeah don't make half assed assumptions blablabla

    Less sure about Exeggutor right now in the tier since the "you have to prepare for it -> broken" argument is as bad as it gets especially for a 229 speed max or whatever Pokemon that has a few good answers anyway (similar to UU Crawdaunt) but definitely something that needs to be looked at indeed as well so expect an update on those once we sort some things out
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  7. zdrup15

    zdrup15

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    Ok so here's my opinion as someone who started playing the tier when the seasonal began: pu is a solid tier so far where many archetypes can work and that versatility is perhaps its major plus. However, you guys have delayed dealing with what has been imo the major problem for a while now.

    Vigoroth is fast and bulky enough that it can set up on and then do huge damage against some stall teams and many balance ones with some previous damage. It isn't useless against offense either because its bulk allows it to take stuff like lo floatzel without fblast/cb floatzel, lo zebs, altaria, scarf chatot, golem and a few others and to deal significant damage or set up on them.

    It's true that some people overstate it by saying it can 6-0 some teams from turn 1 (and there are replays of seasonal matches showing that) but I'm counting those out because if your team is that weak to a main threat, the main problem is with the team, not just with the threat.

    All in all, I can agree with some people wanting to test machoke's dpunch for its uncompetitiveness but vigoroth seems so much worse that I can't see it not being the next suspect.
  8. Magnemite

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    The PU council has decided to suspect test Vigoroth and Exeggutor! The former has been already talked about a lot in this thread for its ability to easily beat teams with its combination of fantastic bulk, few weaknesses, and the Bulk Up + Slack Off combination that make it extremely threatening and hard to deal with even with a Ghost-type on the opposing side. Exeggutor is also a Pokemon that was brought up for discussion for its ability to tear down teams with its extreme power and functional coverage coupled with Sleep Powder and unpredictability, as well as the lack of any real counters that easily fit onto teams. Both Pokemon have a few flaws, especially Exeggutor for its bad speed stat and number of weaknesses and Vigoroth still struggles with Ghost-types and entry hazards but are definitely worth looking at.

    The suspect test will last for a bit more than two weeks just because the holidays fall into these two weeks. The deadline will be Wednesday, December 30th.

    The requirements for this test will be the same as last time.The reqs will be 2800 coil with a B value of 9.0
    Code:
    GXE N
    100 18
    90 25
    85 32
    80 46
    78 58
    75 91
    72 222
    
    To find out how many matches it'll take for you specifically, take your GXE, and put it into this formula
    N=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2800)

    However, in addition, for this suspect test, those who make posts of good quality in addition to getting ladder reqs will be chosen for the rotating council, which means that their vote will hold more weight than it would otherwise.

    tagging The Immortal for a ladder please

    ***PSA***: Put effort into your posts. Any posts lacking content will be deleted and infracted.
  9. galbia

    galbia deep mayo
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    thread will be locked for a few days
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  10. Magnemite

    Magnemite
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    I also made an image to go along with the suspect

    [​IMG]
  11. galbia

    galbia deep mayo
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    I am a likewhore

    Thread is unlocked, go wild
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2015
  12. zdrup15

    zdrup15

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    Last post before thread was locked, first after it's unlocked?

    Ok so I just got reqs by using mostly stall with webs and another offense team in some of the matches to mix it up. Stall is pretty much the playstyle vigoroth loves to face and yet I wasn't swept by a single one. Why? Because I'm that good. Because I only faced two: one was terribly misplayed, the other was taunt instead of sub and ended up as a victim of side effects and then stalled to death by pumpkin ghost. This is the more ban-worthy of the two for many of the people I talked with because its bulk, speed and movepool allow it to do one single job perfectly: set up a Sub, then Bulk Up, then win. And it does it with very little support. Just status the opposing ghost. Or not, it can even pp stall the most common gourgeist set if needed. And it works against every playstyle (best against stall but not useless at all against offense) so I'd say ban.

    Now to the more controversial imo. Eggy is extremely strong but its usefullness depends a lot more on the opponent's team. Against stall, eggy can be a humongous threat. Leaf Storm+Psyshock does a lot to any stall without vullaby. And the ones with vullaby have to first scout for ancientpower to make sure it's safe. However, it's a bit different vs balance and stall. It has a ton of weaknesses and these teams are bound to have several members that can outspeed and hit it for huge damage. So why is it seen as such a danger even to those? Stunfisk is the #1 pivot / sr user in the tier for these kind of teams (yes, golem is also pretty common but most end up going to fisk because of that special bulk to take hp ice and grass) and eggy can enter in the vast majority of the fisks (some run sludge) without any issue and then just spam a move and ohko something. I believe that, unlike vigoroth, we can actually maintain eggy in pu and see if the meta actually develops into something that doesn't have a fisk everywhere for it to enter and destroy. I'm not 100% sure on this yet but, as of now, I'd say no ban.
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2015
  13. Thisbemyalt

    Thisbemyalt Confirming as Flyingfire11
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    Eggy is a major threat and is absolutely dreadful to face when using stall or fisk balance, however I wouldn't really call it broken. I think what makes eggy not broken to me is just how easy it is to revenge kill. Eggy's mediocre speed tier coupled with an awful defensive typing make it so a large portion of the offensive meta can reliably revenge/force out eggy, I don't really see it as being so powerful that you need specific checks and counters just for this one mon. Sure maybe you have to sack to it but eggy is a wall breaker, the real trait I look for in whether or not a wall breaker is broken is if it forces players to run sets/mons that would otherwise be completely unviable, which, as far as I can tell, simply is not the case. Eggy can also be pursuit trapped which is a significant hindrance to any wall breaker. The only way I could really see eggy being considered broken would be if someone considered it such a threat to stall that the playstyle is simply unviable. However this is not the case, while the matchup is of course in eggy's favor it is not unwinnable for the stall user unless they are completely unprepared for it which is a player's fault for poor building.

    Now vigoroth is almost the opposite of the above. It is extremely difficult to revenge/beat without a very strong check or counter, it can not be pursuited, it can't even really be played around honestly. It is no where near as manageable as eggy is and has at least a decent matchup versus every archetype, and from what I have seen/read the list of mons that reliably stop vigoroth is quite small. I remember when I got reqs for the Throh suspect I always wondered why vigoroth had't been addressed first, and I can not wait to vote ban on it. I would say more but zdrup15 covered a lot of my opinions already.
    Based Honker and tehy like this.
  14. ExplosiveChaos

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    This will become more of a post later, but before a ton of people posts, I think I should say this about Exeggutor. The main reason I have seen why Exeggutor was suspected wasn't because it was broken, people need to get that out of their heads. The reason it is being suspected is because of the insane amount of pressure and limits it puts on defense teams. Of course it can be revenge killed and punished by offensive teams. But that doesn't matter because offensive teams is not what it is good against. Exeggutor is a main reason why defensive teams are not good in this tier. They can still be used, but they are not as good as offense. So the question should shift from, "Is Exeggutor broken?" to "Is Exeggutor unhealthy for PU?" for what I feel would be a much more beneficial reason to vote for ban or unban.

    Vigoroth Thoughts (open)

    I don't think anyone bar some new players that don't have enough experience against good teams will not ban it. The funny thing about Vigoroth is that it is a 6-0 or a 1-1 / 0-1. But the problem with that is that it is a 6-0 for almost any team that doesn't have some weird sets on a Pokemon. Even Vigoroth's counters can be played around. Offensive counters get destroyed after 1 Bulk Up and a sub, and defensive counters are really hurt by sub (or the still good Taunt). Now the thing with Vigoroth is that it can become a 6-0 mid game. Even if you have that one weird counter that holds your hole team together or you lose to Vigoroth, that counter can be weakened by so many things throughout the game. I personally believe that the best counter to Vigoroth right now is Toxic Spikes and then praying it doesn't get defogged. What I am trying to say is that Vigoroth 6-0s almost the whole meta its finite amount of counters can be weakened. And it can straight up beat checks after 1 turn of setup.

    Exeggutor Thoughts (open)

    I already touched on this in my introduction part of the post, but I will go a little more in-depth. From what I've seen, there is two ways to determine if a Pokemon should be banned (or unbanned). If it is either broken for the tier or unhealthy. Exeggutor isn't broken. It has a big amount of checks, but really only on offensive teams. But Exeggutor has a trick up his sleeve. It has Harvest berries, which are actually not bad sets. It can't be Pursuit trapped, KOed by Knock Off's, or die from Ice-type coverage depending on the berry you choose. It can also run boosting berries that are devastating for slower teams. Exeggutor has many checks on offensive, even with ways to get around some, but has too little defensive checks. But I still believe it is not broken.
    Now, is it unhealthy? I strongly believe that yes, it is unhealthy for PU. A lot of counter arguments for this is "stall isn't bad, we have Audino" or something like that. Well that isn't what I am trying to say here. What it does is make stall and semi-stall or other slow, bulky teams much more ineffective, especially compared to offense. This wouldn't be a big deal if Throh had been unbanned, but the premier reason it didn't get unbanned was to help out balance PU so that it can have many different equally viable playstyles. Without Exeggutor banned, it will just slow down that transformation that I know many mods and players alike want in PU. Exeggutor just seems like a Pokemon that is holding back PU's full potential is a tier.
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2015
  15. tehy

    tehy Banned deucer.

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    Can you explain why this does not qualify as 'broken'?

    Are you saying just that it creates extreme matchup? If so, does that mean you can't just run with offense and be fine 99% of the time? Cause in my experience, that's not the case.

    anyhow if it smashes stall too hard, or any playstyle too hard, then that qualifies as 'broken' (unless you don't care about said playstyle in which case it's not banworthy)
  16. Magnemite

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    I really don't see how anyone in good conscience can vote no ban on vigoroth so i'm not gonna bother talking about it

    The reason Exeggutor is broken for me is because there's no way to prepare for it that doesn't just lose to some other good set. Vullaby isn't enough because it's 2HKOed by Specs Ancientpower after rocks, and it's very easy to keep a Vullaby at 75% or lower since it's going to be its team's only way of removing SR. Things like Metang that you'd think would beat it just straight up lose because of Sleep Powder and how absurdly strong it is. You can't even just sac something once and Pursuit trap it because Colbur is a common and good set. Also something no one has taken into account is the sub petaya set which has no defensive answers at all by itself and is still good in other situations because the only thing you give up against offense by not running it is the slight power drop from not having a boosting item (which is pretty irrelevant since Eggy is more than strong enough against offense already).

    Yes obviously it's not broken against offense but that's not the point, in fact the fact that it's still ridiculously good against offense is a testament to how ridiculous it is against anything else and also means that there's no real opportunity cost to running it, so the "but rampardos xD" arguments that are bound to happen don't really hold any water. Also unlike similarly strong wallbreakers Exeggutor is pretty easy to switch in against common Pokemon, especially Stunfisk which is easily the most common SR user in the tier.

    Overall I really don't think keeping Exeggutor is in our best interest if we want PU to be a balanced metagame. One Pokemon with relatively no risk to use making any sort of defensive playstyle significantly less viable can't be good for the tier, no matter how you look at it.
  17. Dundies

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    I'll post my thoughts as well.

    I think we all know what's up with Vigoroth. It's extremely broken, and can win so many games from team matchup, it's honestly insane. Super high Special Defense along with the Speed to set up on a ton of Pokemon with Substitute and Bulk Up, Vigoroth is almost impossible to stop without random status moves, a super hard hitting special attacker, or a fast Ghost-type like Misdreavus.

    As for Exeggutor, I wouldn't say its unhealthy or broken enough to warrant being banned at all. It's pretty obvious that Eggy is insanely strong and how hard it is to switch into it, but that's what's going to come out of basically any good wallbreaker in a meta that benefits it. This doesn't change the fact that Eggy is not hard to beat, especially with offense. It's not only really easy to revenge kill, but playing around it really isn't that hard. In theory, Choice Specs is the set that makes Exeggutor almost impossible to switch into, but you're then locked into moves that is easily exploitable by common offensive Pokemon such as Monferno, Pawniard, Bouffalant, but the thing is Choice Specs really isn't common anymore. People have been more drawn to Yache and Colbur Berry with Harvest, as it allows Eggy to double as a Water or Fighting check along with the ability to wallbreak, which makes it much easier to switch into with Pokemon such as Vullaby, Altaria, Pawniard, etc. One of the main arguments for Eggy being banned is that it makes stall unviable, which is not true. Yes, it puts a lot of pressure on stall, as any good wallbreaker would do, but with the drops of Pokemon such as Altaria and Audino, stall is as viable as it has been in a while, and I feel like it should stay the way it is. As for balance, I feel like Exeggutor sort of reaches a middle ground of how it affects the playstyle in respect to how it effects stall and offense. Exeggutor does put a lot of pressure on balance, but there are more semi-switchins than offense, and fewer checks/counters than stall, while theres less mons to revenge than offense and more mons to revenge than stall. The point I'm trying to get at is that Exeggutor pressures stall the most, and at this point in time, stall is still viable, so I feel the whole "eggy makes stall unviable" argument is kind of dumb, but whatever. Now what I feel like Exeggutor brings to the meta that is positive is a check for Pokemon such as Floatzel and Golem on offense, which are few and far between. It also discourages the nonstop spam of Stunfisk on like every team (which is really stupid btw), as Exeggutor can usually come in for free on it and get a big hit off or catch something on the switchin with Sleep Powder.

    So at the moment I'm thinking ban vigoroth (as everyone should) and no ban for exeggutor. I'll see if other points can sway my opinion on the matter.
  18. Magnemite

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    What it does to offense is almost entirely irrelevant to this suspect test

    I really don't get how you can say stall is viable in a metagame with both Vigoroth and Exeggutor. I could maybe see it being viable with no Vigoroth and only Exeggutor but it still wouldn't be good at all. Audino did help a bit (what does Altaria even beat that other mons didn't already?), but there's still a ton of non-Exeggutor threats to cover and Exeggutor on top of all of them is too much to realistically cover. Also, if stall is viable, aren't more people using it? I realize that Ranbu made a stall team but I'm hesitant to count that since it's really weak to both the suspects as well as Pawniard (which is like the #1 most used mon on the ladder despite not being nearly as good as that would imply). The only defensive Pokemon aside from the very lackluster Zweilous that can switch into Exeggutor and beat it 1v1 is Vullaby which is really easily pressured, I don't think a mon having one reliable answer on defensive teams while also being very good against offensive ones is balanced in any way. Even if you can argue that Exeggutor isn't broken it certainly isn't anything but bad for the meta.
  19. Dundies

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    I did mean that stall is viable with just Eggy in the tier, I'm kind of discluding Vigoroth at this point since it's pretty obvious what is going to happen to it.
    Ranbu's team has the best Pawniard counter in the tier and Spikes to make sure multiple doubles can't be made to get it in for setup opportunities. His team also has spikestack and along with the combination of Roar Avalugg, Gourgeist-XL, and Roselia's Sludge Bomb that has the poison chance, his team takes care of Vigoroth pretty well I'd say (this just goes to show how broken Vigoroth is). And as for Exeggutor, he has multiple soft checks and Vigoroth has a lot of trouble getting opportunities to come in, again, considering he has spikestack along with phasing.

    Not like this really matters, but I just wanted to point out that Klang is a reliable answer to Exeggutor that can switch in on it and beat it.

    Quoting my above post: "Now what I feel like Exeggutor brings to the meta that is positive is a check for Pokemon such as Floatzel and Golem on offense, which are few and far between. It also discourages the nonstop spam of Stunfisk on like every team (which is really stupid btw), as Exeggutor can usually come in for free on it and get a big hit off or catch something on the switchin with Sleep Powder."
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2015
    Fitzcarraldo, Funbot28 and Many like this.
  20. Magnemite

    Magnemite
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    so it's healthy for the meta because it helps out offensive teams? what?
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  21. ExplosiveChaos

    ExplosiveChaos

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    I'd also like to say that you can't really consider Exeggutor as a positive check to Floatzel. Without a Yache Berry, it has a 68.8% of being OHKOed by Specs Ice Beam without any hazards (100% with Stealth Rock up) and Exeggutor takes 75% from Banded Ice Punch. To check Floatzel you either have to give away your item space to its probably least important viable item or not switch in ever throughout the game, which is very bad for a wallbreaker, while still having to make sure getting rocks off to even have a chance to take a hit. And that chance is less than a 50/50
  22. Dundies

    Dundies
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    Yache Berry Harvest is one of, if not Exeggutor's best sets, and yes, it is a check. A check is defined as a Pokemon that can beat another Pokemon 1v1, which Yache Exeggutor can do to Floatzel. Resist berry Exeggutor also tends to run Synthesis, so yes, it can switch in multiple times. Exeggutor also is able to take Hydro Pump + Ice Beam with Yache Berry, which makes it even a better check. Not really sure what point you're trying to get across here.
  23. Peli

    Peli name elevated but i still act average
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    Have been laddering a bit and using some new mons so will drop some thoughts here,

    Previous to this suspect I had never used Vigoroth before, only facing it once in a tour. I wanted to get familiar with this mon, and holy shit this thing is a fucking monster. In about 60% of games it was literally just "vigo wins here" from team match-up. It can beat so many checks after a single bulk up or a sub, and the ghost types that wall it can get worn down by status and other attacks through-out the match. Its ability to setup on so many of the tier is mental, and phazers just allow last mon vigo to win. Its mindless, it does not require a lot of support, and can just 6-0 teams with ease. This is an easy ban for me.

    Exeggutor is more of a toss-up that I am undecided on at the moment. It has one good counter in zweilous. Vullaby can beat it if no Ancient Power, which I always ran but had around ~40% usage in November. Exeggutor is a very strong and potent threat, and is a monster holding specs. The real reason why Eggy is such a threat is how versatile it is. It can run resist berries, specs, lo, sub seed, sleep powder, hp fire, this thing is a monster. But unlike vigo it has some checks, and is very slow and can be revenge killed easily. Exeggutor is very on the fence for me but im leaning no ban, but want to play around with some other sets / mons before making a final call.
    tehy likes this.
  24. zdrup15

    zdrup15

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    I'm sorry but, having used stall in both this suspect test and during the seasonal in around 45 games with only 4 losses all due to hax, I have to comment this. Stall is very viable right now. There are several good players such as galbia, twix, or tehy that lost to stall teams and I'm just counting players on their main account, there were others with good records on the ladder losing to it too.

    You talk about how eggy is dangerous. Eggy with lo leaf storm, psyshock, ancientpower (most common moves) can't get past gourgeist unless the gourgeist user's brain freezes. Specs? Pivot with audino first and then go to ava if they psyshocked. It also can't really enter for free against a ton of stuff because it doesn't like rose's sludge, pig has signal beam, ava has both avalanche and roar (+ hazards damage), gourgeist has wow and foul play to hinder or damage it, audino has knock and only stunfisk can give it a somewhat free entry (toxic doesn't do damage fast enough to specs and only has discharge para to annoy it). Eggy is very annoying, yes, but nowhere near a "major threat", rotom-f is more annoying, to give an example.

    And Vigoroth is a threat only with the sub set (you can beat taunt with sludge poison or discharge or static para) but that's a threat to basically everything in the tier, from stall to balance and even to offense so I think we can remove it from the equation.

    Also, as a side note, that team has stunfisk with wish support and hazards to make sure pawn can't be alive forever, how exactly is it really weak to pawn?

    Anyway, this was just to say that stall is viable, both on the ladder and on the tournament scene and this is coming from a noob who fought against some competent pu players. About eggy, as I said before, still on the fence so no ban for now.

    PS: why did I just write a book about stall in pu...
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  25. ExplosiveChaos

    ExplosiveChaos

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    I have to disagree with some of what you said. First, ladder wins are not the most concrete evidence for the viability of stall. Secondly, of course you beat some good players. You win with stall because people don't think anyone will use it when building their teams. If they expected it, there are many good Pokemon they could just add as good stallbreaker and pressure the living daylight out of stall. Third, it says something when you have to devote 2 Pokemon on a team for seeing what move Exeggutor will use, and if it is Yache Berry, Avalugg is screwed. There are so many different sets that Exeggutor can use to get around a check, especially with Sleep Powder
    Plancklength likes this.
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