Metagame NP: RU Stage -1: Message to Oglemi, Nails, and Honko (VENOMOTH STOLEN FROM US))

[Fix up]

Azelf- yet to use it but has definitely given me problems
Sableye- ditto

Kyurem- Holy balls. I've been using modest specs Kyurem w/ HP fire over dragon pulse on the ladder with Yanmega cleaning and I have yet to come across something that can switch in completely safely.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 187-222 (46 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
Aromatisse has a good chance to be 2HKO'd on the switch with SR, factoring in one protect

Same goes for Lickilicky, but the chance to 2HKO is smaller

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 276-328 (80.2 - 95.3%)
HP fire decimates AV Esca

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 140-166 (41.4 - 49.1%)
Bronzong is possibly the best switch-in, but then again it has no recovery and by switching it in you're really just weakening it sufficiently for Yanmega or an equivalent to clean up, assuming you're careful enough not to let it take a wish.

ban pls

 

[g]

Posting some cool underrated sets i have experimented these days.

Sneasel @ Life Orb
Ability: Pickpocket
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
- Ice Shard / Pursuit
- Low Kick / Poison Jab

A powerful and fast Knock Off abuser. It deals with a lot of pokemons that give offense trouble such as Froslass / Delphox / Tornadus / Yanmega(if rocks are up) / Virizion etc.
The Ev spread is simple and the first two moves are standard and spammable. In the other slots Ice Shard is priority and very useful for weakened Azelf and Cincinno if you don't want to lose the speed tie and Pursuit to trap Azelf's that think they will lose the speed tie themselves (and to trap other psychics you know). Low Kick (that OHKOes Kyurem after Rocks) and Poison Jab to hit Cobalion and Aromatisse respectively.
You might want to run Band for stronger Ice Shard or Eviolite for some reason but don't.

Exploud @ Life Orb
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Fire Blast / Overheat
- Focus Blast
- Surf / Taunt / Roar / Bulldoze / Whatever

This Exploud can mindlessly spam Boomburst as it can then switch moves if a resistance comes in. In the last slot you can use one of its interesting support options over Surf (that hits basically only Rhyperior) such as Taunt to stop Shuckle trying to Power Split or Toxic or Roar if you want a somewhat niche phazer in your offensive team. Bulldoze is also an option but not that useful anyways.

Frogadier @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Dark Pulse

Frogadier is a really cool offensive Pokémon. It has really good coverage and speed with decent power that makes switching difficult. It can 2HKO Milotic and other common walls with some prediction and it is a good cleaner if faster pokemons are koed. First three moves are good neutral coverage and Hidden Power Fire OHKOes Escavalier but Dark Pulsehits Cresselia and Reuniclus harder so it is viable. Hidden Powers are usable to hit specific threats.

Baby Crumbler (Doublade) @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Swords Dance
- Gyro Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Shadow Claw / Sacred Sword

Enormous bulk on the physical side (it takes even STAB Earthquakes) and incredible typing make him a good check to a lot of stuff, it has good attack and can pull an occasional Shadow Sneak sweep. Knock off is around but it is not that crippling as it is around as Physically bulky as Cofagrigus without Eviolite. Gyro Ball hits hard against offensive teams and has decent neutral coverage. Priority is cool.

Use Fletchinder

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Posting some cool underrated sets i have experimented these days.

Frogadier @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Dark Pulse / Extrasensory

Frogadier is a really cool offensive Pokémon. It has really good coverage and speed with decent power that makes switching difficult. It can 2HKO Milotic and other common walls with some prediction and it is a good cleaner if faster pokemons are koed. First three moves are good neutral coverage and Hidden Power Fire OHKOes Escavalier but Dark Pulsehits Cresselia and Reuniclus harder so it is viable. Extrasensory and Hidden Powers are usable to hit specific threats.

frogadier doesn't learn extrasensory. only greninja.

 

[g]

frogadier doesn't learn extrasensory. only greninja.

Well, i have never actually used Extrasensory on Frogadier but i mentioned it thinking about Greninja. Fixed.

 

[DTC]

Sableye: I don't think this guy was broken, he is just annoying. He is hard countered by Aromatisse, Reuniclus and every fire type. He also has a 4MSS becuase he needs WoW and Recover and the other two move slots can be knock off, foul play, confuse ray, toxic, substitute and taunt. Finally he lacks a lot of bulk to survive in a meta with heavy special hitters such as tornadus and raikou. My prediction? More physical sweepers using Leftovers/Life Orb instead of Lum berry

I won't deny that Sableye has some counters, but the reason Sableye is on the chopping block is not because it is uncounterable, but because it shuts down so many Pokemon between Prankster WoW / Taunt / Knock Off. Sableye looks like he lacks bulk, but between those moves, Recover, and Prankster, no weaknesses aside from Fairy-types he is lasting for a long time. There are lots of special attackers that can barely do more than 56% to specially defensively Sableye once their item is knocked off (even Moltres only does 61% max, and that's one of the strongest special attackers) , so Sableye can Recover spam until they die from burn. (It goes like this -> Sableye comes in vs physical attacker -> Uses WoW, they probably switch to special attacker --> Sableye uses Knock Off / Taunt depending on the special attacker -> Spams Recover. Fire-types mess this up but 1) there aren't many Fire-types in RU 2) this is very predictable 3) delphox gets hit SE by knock off anyways.

Sableye also has no 4MSS whatsoever... it should always be Knock Off / WoW / Taunt / Recover. These four moves give Sableye pretty much everything it would ever need.

I also don't understand how Reuniclus hardcounters Sableye... it's the other way around. The most Reuniclus can do to Sableye is Shadow Ball, and that will not do much. Lots of Reuniclus sets lack Shadow Ball too, and that means it won't be able to do anything to Sableye. Meanwhile Sableye can just Knock Off / Taunt / Recover when applicable until it kills Reuniclus.

 

[Holy Dom]

Why didn't Tornadus-i got bannded that thing is OP as fuck So Azelf, kyurem and sableye took the ban hammer. My thoughts on each one:
Azelf: I will try not to repeat what other people already said, but Azelf is a really versatile Pokemon. He can pull a physical, special, normal gem explosion and even support set with sucess. Your best shot is to pursuit trap it with drapion, spiritomb or skuntank and pray he doesn't predict that and U-turn out. My prediction? We will see a lot more Delphox than we used to do and more Toxicroaks carrying knock off instead of sucker punch.
Kyurem: Another versatile Pokemon that could use a Mixed, Special and Defensive set. Your best bet was AV escavalier and other random AV users. Bronzong gets stalled out by subroost set. Aromatisse gets destroyed by iron head. My prediction? More Druddigon Bronzong and Escavalier will have a lot of less usage.
Sableye: I don't think this guy was broken, he is just annoying. He is hard countered by Aromatisse, Reuniclus and every fire type. He also has a 4MSS becuase he needs WoW and Recover and the other two move slots can be knock off, foul play, confuse ray, toxic, substitute and taunt. Finally he lacks a lot of bulk to survive in a meta with heavy special hitters such as tornadus and raikou. My prediction? More physical sweepers using Leftovers/Life Orb instead of Lum berry

Pursuit still hits for 80dmg on a U-Turn, as long as the Pursuit user doesn't go first. After the U-Turn user chooses who they will switch into, they take Pursuit damage before the switch actually occurs.

Sucker Punch will never be dropped for Knock Off since Toxicroak is slow and frail and appreciates priority to enable it to dent or OHKO fast threats.

A lot of people already use Delphox over Azelf because it can actually switch in on certain hits, and has an easier time snagging a Calm Mind than Azelf does a Nasty Plot. Calm Mind boosts it's Special Bulk to make Special attackers less likely to take it down, and it outspeeds a majority of the physical attackers in the tier and can even Will O Wisp them, especially on a predicted Sucker Punch. And it has nice secondary STAB that makes a more effective Specs set. But yeah, Azelf does have more Speed and Sp. Attack though and a much much wider movepool regardless.

And Sabelye doesn't have 4mss, no one runs Confuse Ray and Sub. The basic set is WoW, Recover, Foul Play/Knock Off, and Taunt. And all fire Types don't wall it, it can 2hko a lot of them with Foul Play after Rocks. Foul Play is far superior to Knock Off in my opinion, but Knock Off can remove recovery and boosting items, which is good team support. Also, Tornadus is usually physical with Defiant since it's Special set doesn't have much accuracy. And Raikou isn't much of a hard hitter honestly unless it's Calm Mind or Specs. And Sableye are ALWAYS Specially Defensive anyway and can Recover while Raikou takes continuous Burn damage.

Sooooo yah ~

 

[g]

Pursuit still hits for 80dmg on a U-Turn, as long as the Pursuit user doesn't go first. After the U-Turn user chooses who they will switch into, they take Pursuit damage before the switch actually occurs.

He means that the Azelf user can predict the pursuiter switching in and U-Turn away

 

[Mew2]

Pursuit still hits for 80dmg on a U-Turn, as long as the Pursuit user doesn't go first. After the U-Turn user chooses who they will switch into, they take Pursuit damage before the switch actually occurs.

Thats why I said "If he predicts the switch".

Sableye also has no 4MSS whatsoever... it should always be Knock Off / WoW / Taunt / Recover. These four moves give Sableye pretty much everything it would ever need.

Without Foul Play Sableye won't do enought damage and confuse ray is usable if you are a cheap bastard you are feeling lucky. You also mention that Sableye should be bannded because he shuts downs so many Pokemon. Following that logic we should ban Whimsicott because he shuts down every set up sweeper with encore, stun spore and taunt while also dealing decent damage with Moonblast.

 

[aVocado]

Whimsicott doesn't have Knock Off, priority WoW, or Recover.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Whimsicott actually does get Knock Off as a BW2 tutor move. It's a lot weaker than Sableye's, though, since it's working off a lower Atk stat and doesn't get STAB.

Just to demonstrate the power difference between Whimsicott and Sableye's Knock Offs:

0 Atk Whimsicott Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Delphox: 132-156 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Delphox: 218-258 (74.9 - 88.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[accelgors]

actually, let me look into the stats of the RU pokemon on the first page that are faster/can survive an attack from azelf. i'll skip the ones that aren't attackers or can get easily KO'd (unless they outspeed/speed tie it). keep in mind that this is all against an attacking azelf set with maxed out SpA and Speed and minimal investment in defenses because i haven't seen any defensive sets even once:
(i didn't get to finish this because i have to go out, so someone else can finish it if they want to or i will later)
220+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azelf: 316-373 (108.5 - 128.1%)
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 242-286 (83.1 - 98.2%)
252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 136-162 (46.7 - 55.6%) (this is less than i expected...)
252+ SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azelf: 198-234 (68 - 80.4%)
4 SpA Cofagrigus Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azelf: 222-264 (76.2 - 90.7%) - with special attack investment: 252 SpA Cofagrigus Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azelf: 282-332 (96.9 - 114%), and with a +SpA nature is a guarenteed OHKO (i had a stupid moment while i was doing this, i was like "why is cofagrigus doing more damage than raikou????" and then i remembered that shadow ball is super effective lmao)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 476-562 (163.5 - 193.1%) (i kept this here even though it can be OHKO'd by grass knot and doesn't outspeed because it does outspeed with 1 speed boost turn)
252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 594-698 (204.1 - 239.8%)
252+ Atk Malamar Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 266-314 (91.4 - 107.9%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azelf: 517-611 (177.6 - 209.9%) (psychic does have a chance to OHKO yanmega)
252+ Atk Drapion Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 300-354 (103 - 121.6%)

 

[jake]

accelgors

making a list of calculations doesn't really add much substance to this argument, especially since you neglected a lot of important factors, like how only a handful of these pokemon can win one on one. while some of these can live ONE hit from a particular set, very few can consistently pressure and beat azelf. for example, you listed escavalier, which is absolutely roasted by a fire blast even with assault vest. malamar is cleanly OHKOed by a CB u-turn.

don't use calculations as the sole focus of your argument in a suspect discussion. it skews your perception of said threat and often makes you neglect how it actually performs in a battle, which is often different than on paper. also, the dragons aren't RU - they are BL and banned from UU, so they are unusable in RU. they appear on the list in the OP because they had low usage in UU (because they were banned).

 

[atomicllamas]

Without Foul Play Sableye won't do enought damage and confuse ray is usable if you are a cheap bastard you are feeling lucky. You also mention that Sableye should be bannded because he shuts downs so many Pokemon. Following that logic we should ban Whimsicott because he shuts down every set up sweeper with encore, stun spore and taunt while also dealing decent damage with Moonblast.

Confuse Ray is a pretty inferior move on Sableye tbqh. And while Whimsicott does shut down many set up sweepers, it is really a mind game, is that Cobalion going to SR / SD or is my Whimsi going to take an iron head to the face on the switch in, where as Sableye is more like, this +2 Cobalion is going to sweep my team, okay, I'll just burn it. It is way less prediction reliant, and way better off against defensive teams, thanks to being an amazing reactive response to a threat instead of a mediocre proactive response. Foul Play can be used over knock off too though, I'll agree with that, but either way there are very few Pokemon that can actually get around Sableye on balanced or stall teams, and offensive teams will pretty much always have 1 or 2 mons rendered useless by the presence of Sableye meaning that Sableye almost always has a positive match up. Essentially this expresses my views about Sableye, I don't really feel like reiterating it.

actually, let me look into the stats of the RU pokemon on the first page that are faster/can survive an attack from azelf. i'll skip the ones that aren't attackers or can get easily KO'd (unless they outspeed/speed tie it). keep in mind that this is all against an attacking azelf set with maxed out SpA and Speed and minimal investment in defenses because i haven't seen any defensive sets even once:
(i didn't get to finish this because i have to go out, so someone else can finish it if they want to or i will later)
220+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azelf: 316-373 (108.5 - 128.1%)
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 242-286 (83.1 - 98.2%)
252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 136-162 (46.7 - 55.6%) (this is less than i expected...)
252+ SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azelf: 198-234 (68 - 80.4%)
4 SpA Cofagrigus Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azelf: 222-264 (76.2 - 90.7%) - with special attack investment: 252 SpA Cofagrigus Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azelf: 282-332 (96.9 - 114%), and with a +SpA nature is a guarenteed OHKO (i had a stupid moment while i was doing this, i was like "why is cofagrigus doing more damage than raikou????" and then i remembered that shadow ball is super effective lmao)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 476-562 (163.5 - 193.1%) (i kept this here even though it can be OHKO'd by grass knot and doesn't outspeed because it does outspeed with 1 speed boost turn)
252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 594-698 (204.1 - 239.8%)
252+ SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azelf: 216-255 (74.2 - 87.6%)
252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azelf: 338-402 (116.1 - 138.1%) (since when has this been RU????? whoa)
252+ Atk Malamar Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 266-314 (91.4 - 107.9%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azelf: 517-611 (177.6 - 209.9%) (psychic does have a chance to OHKO yanmega)
252+ Atk Drapion Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 300-354 (103 - 121.6%)
252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 271-319 (93.1 - 109.6%) (this is RU too??? i guess fairies really hurt these guys)

Salamence, Magnezone, and Hydreigon are all BL right now, this is addressed in the OP. However not only is Zeb correct about these calcs lacking substance behind them, most of these calculations are really pointless in game. All out attacking Azelf will never be taking on these Pokemon when they are at full health, and I'm pretty sure all of these Pokemon lose to Nasty Plot Azelf at +2 (barring revenge killers like Sharpedo and Yanmega, which require you to sack a pokemon to bring them in). Azelf is not being considered for quick ban do to its defensive prowess, but rather because sitting at an impressive base 115 speed, with 125 base mixed attacking stats and a move pool that most offensive Pokemon in the tier would kill for, it is pretty much impossible to switch into.

 

[accelgors]

well i actually wasn't really trying to argue either way, i was just trying to give people an easy to use reference for when they're arguing their points, but i didn't think about how people would use different strategies, so sorry for that

i personally don't think azelf is broken enough to be banned because pretty much anything faster than it can still take it out and there are pokemon available that can take its hits, and not just one or two specific ones either, so i don't really think that's enough to outright ban it.

also away from the main topic but still relevant to RU, i've been using feraligatr lately and wow he's a total beast

 

[aVocado]

well i actually wasn't really trying to argue either way, i was just trying to give people an easy to use reference for when they're arguing their points, but i didn't think about how people would use different strategies, so sorry for that

i personally don't think azelf is broken enough to be banned because pretty much anything faster than it can still take it out and there are pokemon available that can take its hits, and not just one or two specific ones either, so i don't really think that's enough to outright ban it.

also away from the main topic but still relevant to RU, i've been using feraligatr lately and wow he's a total beast

The thing is that Azelf is one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier. Other faster Pokemon are Dugtrio, and.. Accelgor? The former can't trap it since it has Levitate and the former blows, and can't switch in anyway. Azelf speed-ties with some Pokemon like Raikou or Sneasel, but that's not enough.

It single-handedly destroys stall/bulky (part of the reason why stall is almost not viable right now) and offensive teams alike with access to Knock Off, Nasty Plot, strong coverage moves like Fire Blast and Energy Ball/Grass Knot and a strong STAB in the form of Psyshock that hits Pokemon like Milotic hard. It can also grab momentum with U-turn.

It needs to go, along with Tornadus, Kyurem and Sableye.

 

[Holy Dom]

Thats why I said "If he predicts the switch".


Without Foul Play Sableye won't do enought damage and confuse ray is usable if you are a cheap bastard you are feeling lucky. You also mention that Sableye should be bannded because he shuts downs so many Pokemon. Following that logic we should ban Whimsicott because he shuts down every set up sweeper with encore, stun spore and taunt while also dealing decent damage with Moonblast.

Whimiscott doesn't have instant recovery, or the ability to half the power of physical attackers, or a STAB move like Foul Play that can do big damage without investment, or defensive typing that leaves it with one weakness, three immunities, and leaves it unable to be hit by 4 forms of priority. Plus there's not much priority in RU that can hit Sableye relatively hard but Sucker Punch, and that's self explanatory. Aqua Jet from a +2 Life Orb Feraligatr can do over half, but then it's burned. And then it's in a range where another won't kill and Sableye can Recover while Feraligatr wears itself down with LO and burn damage. Even Dazzling Gleam from Life Orb Azelf doesn't OHKO, and then Foul Play is guaranteed to.

Between the defensive typing, STAB buff, priority burns, priority healing, and ability to Taunt any defensive switch-ins that attempt to Toxic it, Sableye certainly does not belong in this tier. And it can't be compared to the fluffy thing. They're leagues apart.

 

[accelgors]

The thing is that Azelf is one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier. Other faster Pokemon are Dugtrio, and.. Accelgor? The former can't trap it since it has Levitate and the former blows, and can't switch in anyway. Azelf speed-ties with some Pokemon like Raikou or Sneasel, but that's not enough.

It single-handedly destroys stall/bulky (part of the reason why stall is almost not viable right now) and offensive teams alike with access to Knock Off, Nasty Plot, strong coverage moves like Fire Blast and Energy Ball/Grass Knot and a strong STAB in the form of Psyshock that hits Pokemon like Milotic hard. It can also grab momentum with U-turn.

It needs to go, along with Tornadus, Kyurem and Sableye.

accelgor does not blow, its defenses are terrible but it's fast and has strong special attacking prowess and good coverage moves and it's a very effective azelf check that i've taken down many pokemon with so...

and i get what you mean, although in my experience azelf has still been pretty easy for me to beat, but i accept that might just be because my particular team is well suited to hitting it

 

[Olly]

accelgor does not blow, its defenses are terrible but it's fast and has strong special attacking prowess and good coverage moves and it's a very effective azelf check that i've taken down many pokemon with so...

and i get what you mean, although in my experience azelf has still been pretty easy for me to beat, but i accept that might just be because my particular team is well suited to hitting it

When Yanmega is in the tier it seems hard to justify using Accelgor. As a suicide spikes Pokemon we have Froslass. And its special attack is too low to break through special walls.

 

[Monte Cristo]

The thing is that Azelf is one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier. Other faster Pokemon are Dugtrio, and.. Accelgor? The former can't trap it since it has Levitate and the former blows, and can't switch in anyway. Azelf speed-ties with some Pokemon like Raikou or Sneasel, but that's not enough.

It single-handedly destroys stall/bulky (part of the reason why stall is almost not viable right now) and offensive teams alike with access to Knock Off, Nasty Plot, strong coverage moves like Fire Blast and Energy Ball/Grass Knot and a strong STAB in the form of Psyshock that hits Pokemon like Milotic hard. It can also grab momentum with U-turn.

It needs to go, along with Tornadus, Kyurem and Sableye.

Iirc this is why imo Cress should be manditory on stall, due to it's ability to basically ruin most H due to it's titanic bulk and support movepool. I've been using the timid 252 screens/lunar dance gariant on HO as a pivot and reliable wall/screener, I've been using the CM moonblast set on balance, stall and offense and it works well imo. I've also been using 2 underrated sets on stall:
Cresselia @ Expert Belt
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest | Timid Nature (been using both, timid can do fast 95 speed tier stuff but modest ebelt moonblast vs sabel is fun)
Moonblast |Lunar Dance / Hidden Power [Fire] | Ice Beam | Psychic

Finding this to be a great lure in RU rn, it can break subroost kyus subs easily with Moonblast and outspeed it for a 2HKO. HP fire kills esca hard while LD lets common offensive mons sweep more than once, the lure factor of hp fire v esca is great for weakening it for things like Kyurem to sweep later. Psychic > shock cause most things in the tier rn are hit harder by Psychic. Ice beam is the best last slot coverage for cress on this set by far so using it n stuff.

Cresselia (AwesomeCress) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
Calm Mind | Psyshock / Moonblast | Rest | Sleep Talk

Standard CM spread for taking things like sneasel knock off and laughing at it. Resttalk meand you only have 1 coverage which leads to psyshock for STAB and CM wars or moonblast to not be sableye hard shitted on. It also means this set is subjective to the RNG, but just like Cromat's CroCune, it has the titanic bulk to deal with punishments from getting greedy from the RNG. Honestly, this thing can shit on HO rn, Cress used to take like ~40% from gene uturn in OU (+1 too!) So I doubt it takes much from the uturns in RU like azelf's. Same with Knock Off, barely any 2 back to back knock offs can kill it in the tier, and sabeleye's is kind of pathetic considering how well it takes the offensive ones in the tier. I would post imgs or calcs but I'm on mobile.

Have a fun Cresselia time in RU! ^_^

 

[termi]

Been playing a couple of matches with a full NFE team provided by Molk (thank u :>) and I can say holy hell Sliggoo eats special attackers for breakfast

Sliggoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Thunderbolt
- Dragon Pulse

Anyone who has played Gen 5 RU knows how surprisingly effective mono Dragon is as a defensive typing (Drud sez hi) and Sliggoo has enough special bulk to soak up any hit that's not and STAB and SE and boosted with ease. Some calcs to demonstrate just how bulky it really is:

Neutral STAB special hits boosted by item/stat boosting?

252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 100-118 (29.4 - 34.8%) -- 10.1% chance to 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 102-121 (30 - 35.6%) -- 34% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 117-138 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 130-154 (38.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

None of these can even hope to 2HKO Sliggoo without hazards around, no matter how hard they hit.

So how about supereffective attacks?

4 SpA Dragalge Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 80-96 (23.5 - 28.3%) -- 82.8% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Aromatisse Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 92-110 (27.1 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Gorebyss Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 88-104 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252 SpA Mismagius Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 134-158 (39.5 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 138-164 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- 7.8% chance to 2HKO after hail damage

That's quite insane, you'll have to agree. So why use Sliggoo, you ask? Well, stopping all Shaymin sets (with ap Sipper) and al Raikou sets lacking CM might be a good starting point. Like I showed, not having a SE attack for Sliggoo on your special sweeper/wallbreaker means that it will wall you unless you hit crazy hard like Exploud. It can also switch into random Fire Blasts flying around without even batting an eye. The special bulk here is unrivaled in the tier.

Of course it does have quite a number of flaws, sadly. For starters, that it can wall something doesn't mean it can beat something, as it hits like a sissy. On top of that, it has to rely on RestTalk, which is less than ideal. Finally, its physical bulk is piss poor, meaning that you will have to stay away from anything that is likely to carry a decently strong physical attack (especially Knock Off!).

Despite that, do not dismiss our little slug friend, but give it a try! Even if it doesn't win you a match, it still looks rather cute, right? There is no losing when using Sliggoo. :>

 

[Molk]

Hey everyone! I know we've been talking about the suspects and all, but i'd just like to change the topic for a second (feel free to continue discussing though). Recently i ended up pretty bored and decided to make a team entirely around NFE pokemon that may or may not have potential to see how they do (gave it out to a few people too like robert alfons and detroitlolcat for fun laddering sessions, shoutout!), and i think i might've struck a gem, ironically one i didnt think would work at all before.

NOW YOU LOSE (Fletchinder) @ Nothing (gamefreak not giving us Flying Gem .__.)
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd (ev spread is preliminary, adding more bulk is an option)
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

A lot of people thought that Fletchinder would have some lower tier viability early on after we discovered Gale Wings, simply because its base attack is only a few points lower than Talonflame's... until we learned it didnt learn either of Brave Bird or Flare Blitz, which put kind of a damper on its potential, but even then i think that this Fletchinder set has the potential to work in xy RU and below. Fletchinder still has access to priority Acrobatics, and whilei t forces Fletchinder to give up its item to work until Flying Gem is released, it still has enough power to revenge kill weakened offensive threats, and sweep after a SD boost (hard to set up sometimes cause frail, but not impossible, especially when the opponent has shaymin or escavalier, having no item actually helps it check the latter). At first i ran SD/acro/overheat/tailwind, but eventually i realized i wasn't using any offensive moves other than Acrobatics anyway, so i decided to convert to Will-O-Wisp+Roost, which i find to work much better. Will-O-Wisp lets Fletchinder burn some of the annoying pokemon that resist its Acrobatics, such as Bronzong, registeel, and especially Rhyperior, getting residual chip damage, weakening their attacks, and eventually wearing them down to the point that Fletchinder can get past them later on. Will-O-Wisp's burning makes it slightly easier for fletchinder to set up, too, especially when comined with priority roost, just think about what makes Sableye so annoying. Overall definitely not a top threat imo, but i feel this set makes Fletchinder at least usable, and its definitely nothing to scoff at in the right hands, just ask oglemi :)!

So has anyone else thought about using Fletchinder/tested this set after the post? if so, how did it go? do you think its usable?

 

[Mew2]

Hey everyone! I know we've been talking about the suspects and all, but i'd just like to change the topic for a second (feel free to continue discussing though). Recently i ended up pretty bored and decided to make a team entirely around NFE pokemon that may or may not have potential to see how they do (gave it out to a few people too like robert alfons and detroitlolcat for fun laddering sessions, shoutout!), and i think i might've struck a gem, ironically one i didnt think would work at all before.

NOW YOU LOSE (Fletchinder) @ Nothing (gamefreak not giving us Flying Gem .__.)
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

A lot of people thought that Fletchinder would have some lower tier viability early on after we discovered Gale Wings, simply because its base attack is only a few points lower than Talonflame's... until we learned it didnt learn either of Brave Bird or Flare Blitz, which put kind of a damper on its potential, but even then i think that this Fletchinder set has the potential to work in xy RU and below. Fletchinder still has access to priority Acrobatics, and whilei t forces Fletchinder to give up its item to work until Flying Gem is released, it still has enough power to revenge kill weakened offensive threats, and sweep after a SD boost (hard to set up sometimes cause frail, but not impossible, especially when the opponent has shaymin or escavalier, having no item actually helps it check the latter). At first i ran SD/acro/overheat/tailwind, but eventually i realized i wasn't using any offensive moves other than Acrobatics anyway, so i decided to convert to Will-O-Wisp+Roost, which i find to work much better. Will-O-Wisp lets Fletchinder burn some of the annoying pokemon that resist its Acrobatics, such as Bronzong, registeel, and especially Rhyperior, getting residual chip damage, weakening their attacks, and eventually wearing them down to the point that Fletchinder can get past them later on. Will-O-Wisp's burning makes it slightly easier for fletchinder to set up, too, especially when comined with priority roost, just think about what makes Sableye so annoying. Overall definitely not a top threat imo, but i feel this set makes Fletchinder at least usable, and its definitely nothing to scoff at in the right hands, just ask oglemi :)!

So has anyone else thought about using Fletchinder/tested this set after the post? if so, how did it go? do you think its usable?

Molk what if we give this guy a leichi or salac berry and Natural gift? 100 fighting/ grass move or just to get a final boost before sweeping sounds sweet.

 

[Tralf]

Hey everyone! I know we've been talking about the suspects and all, but i'd just like to change the topic for a second (feel free to continue discussing though). Recently i ended up pretty bored and decided to make a team entirely around NFE pokemon that may or may not have potential to see how they do (gave it out to a few people too like robert alfons and detroitlolcat for fun laddering sessions, shoutout!), and i think i might've struck a gem, ironically one i didnt think would work at all before.

NOW YOU LOSE (Fletchinder) @ Nothing (gamefreak not giving us Flying Gem .__.)
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd (ev spread is preliminary, adding more bulk is an option)
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

A lot of people thought that Fletchinder would have some lower tier viability early on after we discovered Gale Wings, simply because its base attack is only a few points lower than Talonflame's... until we learned it didnt learn either of Brave Bird or Flare Blitz, which put kind of a damper on its potential, but even then i think that this Fletchinder set has the potential to work in xy RU and below. Fletchinder still has access to priority Acrobatics, and whilei t forces Fletchinder to give up its item to work until Flying Gem is released, it still has enough power to revenge kill weakened offensive threats, and sweep after a SD boost (hard to set up sometimes cause frail, but not impossible, especially when the opponent has shaymin or escavalier, having no item actually helps it check the latter). At first i ran SD/acro/overheat/tailwind, but eventually i realized i wasn't using any offensive moves other than Acrobatics anyway, so i decided to convert to Will-O-Wisp+Roost, which i find to work much better. Will-O-Wisp lets Fletchinder burn some of the annoying pokemon that resist its Acrobatics, such as Bronzong, registeel, and especially Rhyperior, getting residual chip damage, weakening their attacks, and eventually wearing them down to the point that Fletchinder can get past them later on. Will-O-Wisp's burning makes it slightly easier for fletchinder to set up, too, especially when comined with priority roost, just think about what makes Sableye so annoying. Overall definitely not a top threat imo, but i feel this set makes Fletchinder at least usable, and its definitely nothing to scoff at in the right hands, just ask oglemi :)!

So has anyone else thought about using Fletchinder/tested this set after the post? if so, how did it go? do you think its usable?

can focus sash be a viable item on him for a better opportunity of getting a SD boost?

But I think he can be one of the best revenge killer in the RU tier :D

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

Obviously you have forgotten to take Kyogre's best set into account, the HP Fire Shedinja lure set.

Nah, if you're gonna run a shedinja lure, Hail Kyogre is much superior, circumventing the focus sash. As an added bonus, it provides team support for powerful sweepers like Seel and Vanillite.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

can focus sash be a viable item on him for a better opportunity of getting a SD boost?

But I think he can be one of the best revenge killer in the RU tier :D

The big problem with Focus Sash is that you're really not guaranteed to lose it (and most of the time you won't), which can kind of suck (55 base power is pretty low for that acrobatics, especially considering it's your only attack; this lets anything with any sort of bulk that is immune/doesn't care about Will-O-Wisp to set up all over you, including but not limited to Smash 'n' Pass Gorebyss/Huntail, Reuniclus, and Offensive variants of Coffin).

I was looking a bit at a mixed set with Overheat and Power Herb + Solar Beam, but honestly his special attack (56 Base) isn't even close to worth it. Steel wing could be a possibility to break through lower health rhyperior and other similar targets, but it's low base power is offputting. As Mew2 mentioned, natural gift is a very real possibility, allowing it to break through a counter with a one time use grass/fighting type move; Fighting is probably superior due to it's ability to hit both Rock and Steel types. The only things I'm seeing which grass can notably hit harder are Lanturn (which is hella rare anyway) and Rhyperior (which is also hit pretty hard by the Fighting Natural Gift after a swords dance anyway).

There's some potential for an eviolite support mon, since it does get Will-O-Wisp, Priority Roost, Taunt, and U-Turn to conserve momentum, but it's probably outclassed by other things since even with it's support movepool and an eviolite boost, it's still decidedly flimsy. Finally, Me First could be interesting and somewhat gimmicky, but I can see it being used to get the rare moment of coverage when needed, but again, it's a gimmick and probably outclassed.

Mostly Flechinder feels a bit one dimensional, but if he tries to branch out, he goes from usable to gimmicky.