Metagame NP: RU Stage -1: Message to Oglemi, Nails, and Honko (VENOMOTH STOLEN FROM US))

[Olly]

Ahem, aromatisse and Lickilicky are pink blobs that are both EXTREMELY good in the tier as special walls atm.
Since lickilicky has better mixed bulk (which is why I prefer it) there isn't much of a difference in terms of damage, but for sp. def aromatisse:

252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aromatisse: 218-257 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 144-172 (35.4 - 42.3%) -- 87.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The difference in damage is crucial.

You are never going to come in on these though. At +2 you 2HKO Aromatisse thus it can never switch in and beat you.

What separates these from the Blissey, Chansey is you beat these regardless with Azelf. I mean you're never going to take them on unless their significantly weakened or you are at +2. When Blissey and Chansey are in the metagame, you have to run Psyshock otherwise you have no chance of getting past them, that isn't the case in RU. You blast through the special walls regardless.

At the end of the day it comes down to personal preference and the rest of your team.

I also don't think it changes the overall point anyway that Azelf has to go. It's way too strong, and way too versatile.

 

[Srn]

You are never going to come in on these though. At +2 you 2HKO Aromatisse thus it can never switch in and beat you.

What separates these from the Blissey, Chansey is you beat these regardless with Azelf. I mean you're never going to take them on unless their significantly weakened or you are at +2. When Blissey and Chansey are in the metagame, you have to run Psyshock otherwise you have no chance of getting past them, that isn't the case in RU. You blast through the special walls regardless.

At the end of the day it comes down to personal preference and the rest of your team.

I also don't think it changes the overall point anyway that Azelf has to go. It's way too strong, and way too versatile.

To be fair, what are you coming in on anyway? :P

Also, according to the calcs, you're not blasting through the special wall I just gave you if you're using Psychic: Aromatisse :
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 289-341 (71.1 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And with Psyshock, you are:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aromatisse: 433-511 (106.6 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

71%-84% doesn't fit the definition of "blasting through" to me, especially when you have a +2 boost.

However, as you said, it's way too strong and versatile regardless, pls ban :]

 

[chaostothemax]

I've been using Sableye on my team, and I can say without a doubt that it's ridiculous. Prankster will o wisp, taunt, recover, and access to knock off is absurd. I've almost soloed entire teams with this thing. Seriously, get rid of it.

I haven't used much of the other two, but I've seen enough of them to know that they're likely to go too. Kyurem just smashes shit, and very few things outside of like AV Gallade can stop it reliably. Azelf is just obnoxious; it has crazy options, so it's really hard to tell what set it's running. Plus, due to its stats, a misprediction of what Moveset it's using can end the match right there.

Personally, I'm for banning all of them; however, do as you will.

 

[aVocado]

I would also get rid of Tornadus asap, it's ridiculously dumb lol.

Even Specially Defensive Milotic can't switch into Hurricane when SR is on the field, as:

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 142-168 (36 - 42.6%) -- 91.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The average of those two calcs is 39.3 and 47.55. Add that up, and SR damage, and it's 98.85% damage. Not assuming you predict the switch anyway and use 2 Grass Knots and finish it off, or you get good damage rolls on both attacks.

Additionally, Registeel takes a pretty decent amount too:

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 143-169 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

But I guess Registeel can T-Wave it and hope to kill it off with Iron Head though.. And then there's Raikou of course, which is considered a pretty good Torn check, and it's maimed by Dugtrio which is stupid when paired with Torn lol. Other specially bulky Pokemon like Cresselia and Slowking don't like Knock Off, which can be used on the 4th moveslot on Torn's moveset.

edit: also, when will the suspect tests start?

 

[Olly]

To be fair, what are you coming in on anyway? :P

Also, according to the calcs, you're not blasting through the special wall I just gave you if you're using Psychic: Aromatisse :
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 289-341 (71.1 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And with Psyshock, you are:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aromatisse: 433-511 (106.6 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

71%-84% doesn't fit the definition of "blasting through" to me, especially when you have a +2 boost.

However, as you said, it's way too strong and versatile regardless, pls ban :]

The way I meant it is you still beat Aromatisse. Aromatisse doesn't OHKO you in return. Whereas in higher tiers you have to run Psyshock otherwise you just never break some of the specially defensive behemoths.

It's no different to if you run Psyshock you will no longer OHKO some physical walls who you don't hit super effective with your other two attacks. So it's not like you pass up nothing by changing Psychic to Psyshock.

I would only run Psyshock right now in RU on Pokemon with Calm Mind so you can win any potential Calm Mind war, that's just my opinion though.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

Guys, just a friendly reminder: When arguing whether or not something is broken/unhealthy for the meta, do not bring "Pokemon X and Y can check/counter it, therefor it is not OP" as an argument, as any Pokemon has at least a few Pokemon that can take care of it, what matters is how many checks/counters there are to these Pokemon, how good they are at checking/countering this Pokemon and how badly you are screwed when you don't have one of these specific Pokemon on your team.

But shedinja is a perfect counter to specs Kyogre! That obviously means Kyogre should be RU :/

 

[Darkai34]

I would like to write about an unepreciated threat, Kingler.

Sticky web sweeper crab

@ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Crabhammer
- Superpower
- Knock Off/X-scissor

It is suggested that you run kingler on a sticky web support team. With a base atk of 130 Kingler can leave holes on teams. With sticky web support Kingler can outspeed a non scarfed Raikou and 1 hit it with Crabhammer. Even against the most fearsome physical attackers Kingler can either outspeed them and kill them, or take a hit with its good phys.defense and retaliate back. The worst thing about the allmighty crab is its special defense, which leaves it vulnerable against strong special attackers.

Here are some calcs:

252 Atk Choice Band Kingler Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 140-166 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kingler Superpower vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 430-506 (106.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kingler Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 202-238 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 441-522 (101.6 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 342-404 (102.3 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 310-366 (96.2 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 288-340 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 179-211 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 19.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 181-213 (45.9 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Biggest counters: Defensive walls that resist its stab, like Alomomola and Milotic. Also shaymin can take less than 50% (depending on set) and can 1 hit kingler with a strong stab seed flare.

Ideal teammates: 1)Exploud, another sticky web sweeper can really hurt kingler's biggest counters, alomomola and physically defensive milotic
2)Shuckle, can set up sticky web and Srocks which are really important.
3)A ghost type which can act as a spinblocker.
4)Milotic, while not covering the weaknesses, can be an alternative to a spinblocker, with its abillity, competitive, a defog will raise its mediocre sp. attack to good levels, which could raise the difficulty for the opponent.
5) A heal bell user, incase kingler gets burned.
6) Raikou, who can kill alomomola and milotic.

This is my first set in the forums, so any constructive criticism is welcome. :)

Anybody? :D

 

[Olly]

Dual screen Meowstic seems great right now. It provides great support to your team. Prankster dual screens and thunder wave are awesome. You often get to set up dual screens multiple times in a match. There is far less Defog in RU than OU and UU which makes this a far more effective strategy.

 

[Meteor 17]

How have you guys been using Golurk? It has a lot of variety, even though the SR set is obfuscated now with setters like Rhyperior.

 

[newfren]

Personally, I think Alomomola + AV Escavalier works so much better. Aside from the obvious 4x Fire Weakness being resisted by Alomomola, it also forms a dual Knock Off core, which can cause the opponent to have to send out two different 'mons to lose their item. Aromatisse is good and all, but since it lacks Alomomola's Regenerator, I've found it doesn't stick around as long as it needs to.

I do find I have to be pretty good about keeping aromatisse near full health most battles, but Fat Fish doesn't bring cleric support to the table, which is so useful because it means I can switch escavalier into scalds without being too concerned if they burn me.

 

[michaeloche]

How have you guys been using Golurk? It has a lot of variety, even though the SR set is obfuscated now with setters like Rhyperior.

I haven't used it myself, but I suppose an AV set could work. It can tank some SE special hits, especially with three prominent weaknesses being primarily special.

Golurk @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
-Drain Punch
-Earthquake
-Shadow Punch
-Ice Punch

For example, you can live 2 Scalds from defensive Milotic:
4 SpA Milotic Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Golurk: 140-168 (36.6 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Interestingly, EQ does about the same in return, meaning you should only attempt this against a weakened Milotic and hope you don't get burned.

And against Kyurem:
220+ SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Golurk: 254-302 (66.4 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (you aren't living Ice Beam without AV unless you get the min damage roll)
252+ Atk Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 228-270 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You have a chance here, although it's probably not the greatest.

Other sets include banded wallbreaker and Rock Polish.

 

[Jaguar360]

I haven't used it myself, but I suppose an AV set could work. It can tank some SE special hits, especially with three prominent weaknesses being primarily special.

Golurk @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
-Drain Punch
-Earthquake
-Shadow Punch
-Ice Punch

For example, you can live 2 Scalds from defensive Milotic:
4 SpA Milotic Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Golurk: 140-168 (36.6 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Interestingly, EQ does about the same in return, meaning you should only attempt this against a weakened Milotic and hope you don't get burned.

And against Kyurem:
220+ SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Golurk: 254-302 (66.4 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (you aren't living Ice Beam without AV unless you get the min damage roll)
252+ Atk Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 228-270 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You have a chance here, although it's probably not the greatest.

Other sets include banded wallbreaker and Rock Polish.

Assault Vest Golurk is good. I've used it on a couple teams. I wish it had a little more bulk, but its power is definitely there and it has great coverage accompanied by recovery with Drain Punch.

Golurk is also a decent Stealth Rock setter and spinblocker.

 

[accelgors]

i'm sorry i'm kinda new to how the tiers are structured, if the pokemon isn't on the usage list (basically below rotom-mow in usage) on the first page is it NU now?

 

[dingbat]

i'm sorry i'm kinda new to how the tiers are structured, if the pokemon isn't on the usage list (basically below rotom-mow in usage) on the first page is it NU now?

Not quite; the usage stats shown here only determines what is staying in UU. Everything below that doesn't end up getting banned from RU Beta stays in RU and the NU tier will eventually be created based on RU usage stats after the metagame has settled/stabilized.

 

[rob.]

Please stop slapping assault vest on every pokemon and hoping it will catch on.

Edit:

For example, you can live 2 Scalds from defensive Milotic:
4 SpA Milotic Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Golurk: 140-168 (36.6 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Interestingly, EQ does about the same in return, meaning you should only attempt this against a weakened Milotic and hope you don't get burned.

And against Kyurem:
220+ SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Golurk: 254-302 (66.4 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (you aren't living Ice Beam without AV unless you get the min damage roll)
252+ Atk Iron Fist Golurk Drain Punch vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 228-270 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You have a chance here, although it's probably not the greatest.

These are horrible benchmarks. Your calcs won't convince anyone to use assault vest on Golurk.

 

[skies]

i'm sorry i'm kinda new to how the tiers are structured, if the pokemon isn't on the usage list (basically below rotom-mow in usage) on the first page is it NU now?

Think of it like this:
Anything allowed in Ubers
Anything but Ubers allowed in OU
Anything below OU allowed in UU
Anything below UU allowed in RU
Anything below RU allowed in NU
Anything below NU allowed in NU
So you can use any NU Pokemon in RU, UU, and OU. Any RU Pokemon in UU, and OU. Any UU Pokemon in OU. Anything at all allowed in Ubers. Hope this helped :]

 

[accelgors]

Think of it like this:
Anything allowed in Ubers
Anything but Ubers allowed in OU
Anything below OU allowed in UU
Anything below UU allowed in RU
Anything below RU allowed in NU
Anything below NU allowed in NU
So you can use any NU Pokemon in RU, UU, and OU. Any RU Pokemon in UU, and OU. Any UU Pokemon in OU. Anything at all allowed in Ubers. Hope this helped :]

ah ok, well i actually did know that i was just wondering what the "official" classification is now of the pokemon not on that list, but i guess it doesn't matter because i can use them in RU as long as they're not on the banlist anyway. thanks! and cool to know i can still use accelgor and lilligant because those two were my favorites of last gen's RU.

 

[Golemman]

About the suspect discussion, I've used kyurem to an extent and found him to be really good. I support it's ban because of its gigantic power, sufficient movepool, and solid bulk being overwhelming for the RU metagame. Here's the set I run if anyone is interested.
Kyurem @ Life Orb Max SpA and max Speed 4hp
-Draco Meteor -Ice Beam
-Earth Power -Roost
This set capitalizes on all of Kyurems best traits. His coverage with Dragon/Ice/Earth Power is impeccable, his power boosted by LO is ban worthy, and his staying power against defensive mons or resisted attacks from those who are offensive is very good with roost, which also can be used to heal LO recoil. He is super fun to use, but should go.

About the others, perhaps there is another solution: ban knock off. Azelf and Escavalier get past bulky psychics and ghosts with it, respectively, and sableye uses it to further anialate stall. Many other fighting types use it to get past their once checks and counters (psychics and ghosts). If we get rid of this move, it opens up more opportunities for countering the mons that we thought broken (Azelf, Sableye, Escavalier, some fighting types). This ban would keep more mons in the meta and balance it out too.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

The problem is that even without Knock Off Azelf still has the crazy movepool to hit almost everything (without Knock Off it could probably just use Shadow Ball if it really cared about psychic types that much) and Sableye can just run Foul Play, which can make quick work of offensive Pokemon at the very least. I would think they were still suspect worthy even without Knock Off being a thing personally.

I really, really, really don't want a move to have the possibility be banned, I've always found that to be a pretty bad idea unless the move is luck based.

 

[EonX]

Yeah, I have to agree with Swamp-Rocket on the Knock Off issue. While I do feel it's annoying to deal with, it's just something that you know is coming, Know how to deal with it. Hate Knock Off? Run Cobalion or Virizion. Both have Justified to abuse the Knock Off being thrown at their team; Cobalion especially with that high base 129 Defense.

Olly , I honestly haven't thought of using Meowstic yet, but I think both variants can have their uses. The male version has Prankster Dual Screens and T-Wave, kinda like a lesser Klefki imo. On the other hande, the female version has Competitive and a solid special movepool and Speed stat to fuck up most teams relying on Defog to remove hazards. I can definitely see some untapped potential in Meowstic in general.

 

[termi]

But shedinja is a perfect counter to specs Kyogre! That obviously means Kyogre should be RU :/

Obviously you have forgotten to take Kyogre's best set into account, the HP Fire Shedinja lure set.

 

[Mew2]

Why didn't Tornadus-i got bannded that thing is OP as fuck So Azelf, kyurem and sableye took the ban hammer. My thoughts on each one:
Azelf: I will try not to repeat what other people already said, but Azelf is a really versatile Pokemon. He can pull a physical, special, normal gem explosion and even support set with sucess. Your best shot is to pursuit trap it with drapion, spiritomb or skuntank and pray he doesn't predict that and U-turn out. My prediction? We will see a lot more Delphox than we used to do and more Toxicroaks carrying knock off instead of sucker punch.
Kyurem: Another versatile Pokemon that could use a Mixed, Special and Defensive set. Your best bet was AV escavalier and other random AV users. Bronzong gets stalled out by subroost set. Aromatisse gets destroyed by iron head. My prediction? More Druddigon Bronzong and Escavalier will have a lot of less usage.
Sableye: I don't think this guy was broken, he is just annoying. He is hard countered by Aromatisse, Reuniclus and every fire type. He also has a 4MSS becuase he needs WoW and Recover and the other two move slots can be knock off, foul play, confuse ray, toxic, substitute and taunt. Finally he lacks a lot of bulk to survive in a meta with heavy special hitters such as tornadus and raikou. My prediction? More physical sweepers using Leftovers/Life Orb instead of Lum berry

 

[MAMP]

Why didn't Tornadus-i got bannded that thing is OP as fuck So Azelf, kyurem and sableye took the ban hammer. My thoughts on each one:
Azelf: I will try not to repeat what other people already said, but Azelf is a really versatile Pokemon. He can pull a physical, special, normal gem explosion and even support set with sucess. Your best shot is to pursuit trap it with drapion, spiritomb or skuntank and pray he doesn't predict that and U-turn out. My prediction? We will see a lot more Delphox than we used to do and more Toxicroaks carrying knock off instead of sucker punch.
Kyurem: Another versatile Pokemon that could use a Mixed, Special and Defensive set. Your best bet was AV escavalier and other random AV users. Bronzong gets stalled out by subroost set. Aromatisse gets destroyed by iron head. My prediction? More Druddigon Bronzong and Escavalier will have a lot of less usage.
Sableye: I don't think this guy was broken, he is just annoying. He is hard countered by Aromatisse, Reuniclus and every fire type. He also has a 4MSS becuase he needs WoW and Recover and the other two move slots can be knock off, foul play, confuse ray, toxic, substitute and taunt. Finally he lacks a lot of bulk to survive in a meta with heavy special hitters such as tornadus and raikou. My prediction? More physical sweepers using Leftovers/Life Orb instead of Lum berry

They aren't banned yet.

 

[Mew2]

They aren't banned yet.

Now I feel like an idiot well those are my predictions if they get bannded.

 

[NotNova]

Gonna have to agree with what was said about Sableye. It's pretty ridiculous to be able to 1v6 entire teams with just this little guy. It's true Fire types might give it a hard time, but they do not appreciate taking a Knock Off or Foul Play to the face, and with so many bulky Waters to choose from, it's not that big of a deal. He also pretty much shuts down physical sweepers, so it's really easy to tack onto a team and call it a day.

Azelf doesn't really manage to pull its weight quite as well as I expected due to its underwhelming bulk, but with the variety of sets it can run, it's especially hard to counter. Lead, Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Nasty Plot, mixed, or just plain old All Out Attacker set make this guy something to watch out for.

Kyurem is something I kind of learned to live with, but I'll agree that it's probably healthy to get rid of it. It has amazing power and aside from some AV users, which can be surprised by a few coverage moves, it's not really safe to switch into it.