Metagame NP: RU Stage -1: Message to Oglemi, Nails, and Honko (VENOMOTH STOLEN FROM US))

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aVocado

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So, let's talk a bit about Shiftry. Honestly, since I first started playing RU (day 1 of its release) and up until a while ago when I built my team, I had a fixed opinion on Shiftry and that it's shit just based on its base stats and the fact that other Pokemon can defog more reliably. It wasn't until I started using it on a team to test it where I really changed my opinion on it. It's fucking great.

Gonna explain as briefly as possible because there isn't much to talk about it.. Let's start with the fact that it's typing is wonderful offensively and even defensively, somewhat. Grass/Dark makes it able to serve as an excellent offensive check to Pokemon like Heliolisk, Clawitzer, Slowking and Reuniclus among others that I'm not remembering right now. It's decently powerful with an +atk nature too, and it's access to Knock Off along with STAB Sucker Punch is great, not to mention Leaf Storm which hits pretty hard even with minimum investment. Even with those shitty 90/60/60 defenses, it can actually switch into resisted shit, Knock Off an item or two, Defog, and sometimes even sweep.

All of what I mentioned made Shiftry the glue to my team, patching up weaknesses like Heliolisk and Clawitzer, and having access to Defog and strong priority, is really great, even with Milotic gone. I'd like to thank Punchshroom for advertising it everywhere in RU lol, and I got convinced by his posts on this forum to use shiftry.
 

EonX

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Actually, I was talking about the part I bolded, where you say Virizion can use Lum Berry to tank the spore and get another SD; it's immune to Spore, so it doesn't even need the Lum Berry to do that.
Derped. Sue me.

s_aman, I wouldn't say Psychic is absolutely necessary to OHKO Momo with CM Delphox considering Grass Knot can do loads of damage as well. In fact, Grass Knot is only outdamaged by Psychic by 10%. However, if you are using the spread Molk posted in the Teambuilding thread (104 HP / 252+ Def / 152 SDef for those to lazy to look) then Psychic at least has an outside chance of OHKOing Alomomola (12.5% after Rocks) whereas Grass Knot has no shot. That said, I'd still use Psyshock since it's helpful against more targets and not a lot of people run that spread on Alomomola atm (even though I think it's a bit more efficient)
 

Molk

Godlike Usmash
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Damn has there really been no discussion in this thread since sunday o_O.

Either way, what does everyone think of Sticky Web at the moment? Personally i've been messing around with it quite a lot on the ladder and against friends and i feel its way stronger than the general public gives it credit for (although a lot of people on RU irc definitely know how good it can be). Sticky Web is a bit more situational in the upper tiers due to the higher amount of non grounded threats and viable defog/rapid spin users. But in RU there happens to be a decrease in both of these things (they're still definitely there mind you, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, and Kabutops fill the Rapid Spin role well and things such as Gligar, Togetic, Shiftry, and Skuntank to Defog if need be), as well as an increase in the amount of Ghost-types that can block Rapid Spinners trying to remove Sticky Web, making it a bit more consistent and a ton of fun to work with. Combine this with what's basically the ultimate Sticky Web suicide lead in Shuckle (with Mental Herb and Sturdy it gets it and Stealth Rock at least once a match pretty much guaranteed), and you have something pretty threatening on your hands. A ton of Pokemon can abuse Sticky Web effectively in RU too, including Hitmonlee, Zangoose, Delphox, Braviary (this has defiant too!), Moltres, Yanmega, Mega Banette, Emboar, Gallade, and ESPECIALLY Exploud, among other things ofc. Overall i really feel that Sticky Web is a very viable/powerful playstyle in RU that needs more credit than its given. I also know that certain users (such as Shakeitup) feel it might end up being too much for the tier. What do you guys think? Have any of you used Sticky Web before? If so what'd you use and how'd it go?

also, Arikado, both Shiftry and the other lower tier Grass/Dark (Cacturne) really interest me at the moment, would you or other people who have tried either mind sharing some good teammates etc?
 
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Damn has there really been no discussion in this thread since sunday o_O.

Either way, what does everyone think of Sticky Web at the moment? Personally i've been messing around with it quite a lot on the ladder and against friends and i feel its way stronger than the general public gives it credit for (although a lot of people on RU irc definitely know how good it can be). Sticky Web is a bit more situational in the upper tiers due to the higher amount of non grounded threats and viable defog/rapid spin users. But in RU there happens to be a decrease in both of these things (they're still definitely there mind you, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, and Kabutops fill the Rapid Spin role well and things such as Gligar, Togetic, Shiftry, and Skuntank to Defog if need be), as well as an increase in the amount of Ghost-types that can block Rapid Spinners trying to remove Sticky Web, making it a bit more consistent and a ton of fun to work with. Combine this with what's basically the ultimate Sticky Web suicide lead in Shuckle (with Mental Herb and Sturdy it gets it and Stealth Rock at least once a match pretty much guarenteed), and you have something pretty threatening on your hands. A ton of Pokemon can abuse Sticky Web effectively in RU too, including Hitmonlee, Zangoose, Delphox, Braviary (this has defiant too!), Moltres, Yanmega, Mega Banette, Emboar, Gallade, and ESPECIALLY Exploud, among other things ofc. Overall i really feel that Sticky Web is a very viable/powerful playstyle in RU that needs more credit than its given. I also know that certain users (such as Shakeitup) feel it might end up being too much for the tier. What do you guys think? Have any of you used Sticky Web before? If so what'd you use and how'd it go?
Only faced it, not a real issue to my main team. Mainly due to the defensive nature of it.
But I've seen some uses of it on Youtube, like Chimpact nd shit, and it seems pretty solid. Alleviates the main issues of many powerful mons.
I still feel SmashPass to be Sticky Web Offense just more threatening, although I suppose with SW you don't need to apply pressure on one mon for the Smash setups. Idk. SW is pretty pointless to use against very bulky teams tho, unless you want to run Max HP Exploud over Max speed.
 
Web offense is definitely the strongest it's ever been in RU. Shuckle is an extremely reliable user of the move, and it's even able to discourage defog and get webs back up with contrary (I use this over sturdy because very VERY few things are able to OHKO Shuckle in the first place). Doublade is an extremely potent spinblocker, able to force out every relevant spinner in the tier or simply beat them one-on-one. These two do an excellent job of making sure webs stay up, their biggest obstacles being the very uncommon dark-type defoggers armed with taunt.

The things immune to webs tend not to slow the playstyle down by much. Fliers and levitators are few, and Doublade isn't afraid of anything with wings unless it's Moltres or Yanmega. Those two get shredded by rocks, and Exploud handles Mismagius effectively being immune to its primary STAB and hitting through any subs it wants to drop. AV Emboar smashes Rotom-C while taking pitiful damage from all of its moves. It's very easy to cover all the bases with only a few teammates, who all happen to fit nicely on sticky web teams.

Overall web offense is super fun at the moment, lots of great abusers and easy to work around the things that can try to stop you. Speed boosters and TR are a bit difficult to work around, but otherwise web offense is very strong against stall and offense alike.
 
Damn has there really been no discussion in this thread since sunday o_O.

Either way, what does everyone think of Sticky Web at the moment? Personally i've been messing around with it quite a lot on the ladder and against friends and i feel its way stronger than the general public gives it credit for (although a lot of people on RU irc definitely know how good it can be). Sticky Web is a bit more situational in the upper tiers due to the higher amount of non grounded threats and viable defog/rapid spin users. But in RU there happens to be a decrease in both of these things (they're still definitely there mind you, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, and Kabutops fill the Rapid Spin role well and things such as Gligar, Togetic, Shiftry, and Skuntank to Defog if need be), as well as an increase in the amount of Ghost-types that can block Rapid Spinners trying to remove Sticky Web, making it a bit more consistent and a ton of fun to work with. Combine this with what's basically the ultimate Sticky Web suicide lead in Shuckle (with Mental Herb and Sturdy it gets it and Stealth Rock at least once a match pretty much guarenteed), and you have something pretty threatening on your hands. A ton of Pokemon can abuse Sticky Web effectively in RU too, including Hitmonlee, Zangoose, Delphox, Braviary (this has defiant too!), Moltres, Yanmega, Mega Banette, Emboar, Gallade, and ESPECIALLY Exploud, among other things ofc. Overall i really feel that Sticky Web is a very viable/powerful playstyle in RU that needs more credit than its given. I also know that certain users (such as Shakeitup) feel it might end up being too much for the tier. What do you guys think? Have any of you used Sticky Web before? If so what'd you use and how'd it go?

also, Arikado, both Shiftry and the other lower tier Grass/Dark (Cacturne) really interest me at the moment, would you or other people who have tried either mind sharing some good teammates etc?

I definitely agree that Sticky Web is a great playstyle in RU. I use Sticky Web all the time, and I've found it to be great. RU is chock full of things that can take advantage of it, like the things you listed. One thing I've noticed is that Gligar is perhaps one of the most reliable answers to Sticky Web. Even at +2, Braviary simply cannot muscle through Gligar (given it starts off at near-full health) without fainting due to Brave Bird recoil, as long as Gligar roosts the turn immediately after the switch-in. Alternatively, it is *extremely* easy to predict the Braviary (or other Defiant/Competitive users) switch-in, due to the fact that the Sticky Web user cannot afford to lose SW easily. I've also found that it is relatively difficult for an opponent facing SW to spin against it, even without spinblockers, as 2 of the 3 common spinners in RU (Hitmonlee and Kabutops) are frail and extremely crippled by SW, meaning that they often get killed prior to a spin. They have to constantly look for an opening, by time which their team has probably suffered heavy losses. Hitmontop, I've found, is the only thing capable of reliably spinning, especially considering it can spin against Ghost-types with Foresight. Finally, I'd like to mention that opposing Sticky Web is also troubling for SW teams, as most don't have an open slot to carry a dedicated spinner.

Furthermore, after playing SW for quite some time, I've noticed that the main issue I have is being too reliant on SW. Like I mentioned before, even if you do pack spinblockers and Braviary, you aren't guaranteed SW throughout the whole match. Sure, you can pack a scarfer, but if that gets defeated, you really have to work to get the win. I've noticed that slots are extremely tight when building an SW team. You prett much need Shuckle, Braviary (or another with a similar ability), a spinblocker, and a scarfer (unless if you use Braviary), leaving you with only two slots for sweepers. What I eventually started doing is dropping a spinblocker, and running something else instead. Like I said before, Hitmonlee and Kabutops are likely to get demolished before they can spin anyways, and Hitmontop can spin against Ghosts. Claydol can still spin against this, but I'd like to believe that people started realizing Claydol wasn't worth its weight, and stopped using it. Don't get me wrong, I understand that many things can function as both a spinblocker and a sweeper, like Mega Banette and Mismagius, but I just think that a spinblocker is an unnecessary requirement for SW. Thoughts?

Doublade isn't afraid of anything with wings unless it's Moltres or Yanmega.
Sadly, that's pretty much all of the commonly used offensive Flying-types in RU, except for Braviary. Still, I would have to agree that Flying-types and levitators aren't as a whole very threatening to SW, as most of them have a rather modest speed stat to begin with, or simply aren't used as offensive pokemon. Scarfed Braviary can be trouble, along with other fast scarfers, but SW teams usually carry a scarfer of their own, so this is rather easily dealt with.
 
I don't think Braviary is that important to have on a web team. I tried running one for a while and I found it didn't hit hard enough to get past bulkier threats, plus return/BB aren't the best STABs to be locked into early game when defogs are more likely to be attempted. Braviary hits decently hard, but it's simply too easy to wall without a boost while contrary Shuckle does a better job switching into defog and using the opportunity to set up webs again. I would much much rather have a spinblocker since spinners seem to be much more common than defoggers in RU, and there are much better options for stopping spins than there are for stopping defog. Doublade already beats every relevant spinner in the tier, I can't imagine why you'd opt not to use it on a web team.

Sadly, that's pretty much all of the commonly used offensive Flying-types in RU, except for Braviary.
Maybe it doesn't qualify as "commonly used", but Swellow can be a problem for web teams in some situations. Its speed stat and immunity to webs bears mentioning, at the very least.
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
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One pokemon that is just downright terrifying with sticky web is zangoose. Any scarfer (heliolisk, Cincinno, Delphox) not named cobalion that it can't outspeed after web are relatively frail on the physical side and just die to quick attack with a little prior damage anyway. Gotta watch out for scarf moltres, braviary, and rotom formes tho, along with some other rarer fast flying types like archeops. That aside, it friggin 2hko's escavalier with facade. If that isn't enough power to throw around with web support, idk what is.
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 150-177 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Close Combat and Knock Off give it great coverage as well.
Goddam why don't more people use this beast.
 
Molk i dont really have much experience with shiftry but i'd like to say that cacturne is really underrated, it's good for p much the same reasons cacturne is good in uu, countering a good portion of bulky waters while hitting like a fucking truck, so to answer your question i think delphox and other fire types are good partners for kekturne, as they really all benefit from slowking being gone and can take care of amoonguss and other stuff that walls it.

also this is kinda obvious but hazard support is good for cacturne as it helps it kill some things easier while at +2 ( i like sd better than offensive spikes because cacturne forces out a lot of mons surprisingly which lets it get a free boost)
 
I'm currently using a balanced team with alo/amoongus core, mixed emboar, mixed sharpedo, hazard stacking smeargle and trick room Confrag. The idea is to stack hazards and eliminate sharpedos counters in preparation for an end game sweep. But I'm having a hard time dealing with Exploud because nothing on my team can take a boomburst so I'm always forced to sack a Pokemon to KO it. And if I didn't get stealth rock and two layers of spikes up I might have to sack 2 mons. I also have trouble with Defog users in general since I have no way to punish them for defogging. Any thoughts on how I can stop Exploud ;-;?
 
Damn has there really been no discussion in this thread since sunday o_O.

Either way, what does everyone think of Sticky Web at the moment? Personally i've been messing around with it quite a lot on the ladder and against friends and i feel its way stronger than the general public gives it credit for (although a lot of people on RU irc definitely know how good it can be). Sticky Web is a bit more situational in the upper tiers due to the higher amount of non grounded threats and viable defog/rapid spin users. But in RU there happens to be a decrease in both of these things (they're still definitely there mind you, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, and Kabutops fill the Rapid Spin role well and things such as Gligar, Togetic, Shiftry, and Skuntank to Defog if need be), as well as an increase in the amount of Ghost-types that can block Rapid Spinners trying to remove Sticky Web, making it a bit more consistent and a ton of fun to work with. Combine this with what's basically the ultimate Sticky Web suicide lead in Shuckle (with Mental Herb and Sturdy it gets it and Stealth Rock at least once a match pretty much guarenteed), and you have something pretty threatening on your hands. A ton of Pokemon can abuse Sticky Web effectively in RU too, including Hitmonlee, Zangoose, Delphox, Braviary (this has defiant too!), Moltres, Yanmega, Mega Banette, Emboar, Gallade, and ESPECIALLY Exploud, among other things ofc. Overall i really feel that Sticky Web is a very viable/powerful playstyle in RU that needs more credit than its given. I also know that certain users (such as Shakeitup) feel it might end up being too much for the tier. What do you guys think? Have any of you used Sticky Web before? If so what'd you use and how'd it go?

also, Arikado, both Shiftry and the other lower tier Grass/Dark (Cacturne) really interest me at the moment, would you or other people who have tried either mind sharing some good teammates etc?
yeah, I've been playing around on the ladder with a sticky web team I made, haven't lost yet though I've only had six or seven games and haven't played anyone really high up. shuckle is a super reliable lead as you said, and it's really easy to apply offensive pressure to keep the opponent from getting off a defog or spin. specs magneton is a noteworthy abuser, it can outspeed and ohko timid delphox with thunderbolt after sr. the team also has an sd kabutops and it's surprised me how well it's performed, I originally added it mostly just as moltres check but it's proven very useful on the whole.
 

EonX

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Glad you brought up Sticky Web Molk as it's actually something I've been experimenting as of late. Shuckle is super reliable, but I don't find the need to give it Sturdy since next to nothing is OHKOing it anyway. Contrary just kinda fucks with Defog users since it actually raises Evasion, making it harder to hit Shuckle with actual attacks. I actually don't find the need to use Braviary on Sticky Web. Why you ask? Simple: Mega-Bannette. Need a spinblocker and Defog prevention in one? Use Mega-Bannette. With Prankster Taunt and a cool Ghost-typing, M-Bannette can prevent Rapid Spin and Defog with just one slot. Most Defog users struggle to do a lot of damage to Mega-Bannette unless they're Shiftry or Skuntank, in which case, you just DBond their asses and take them down with you. You can employ the same tactic with an opposing spinner if it can beat M-Bannette one-on-one or if there's some serious threat that you need to take out ASAP (hi Moltres, Yanmega, and Braviary)
I've actually found Zoroark to be quite effective in Sticky Web offense. While it may not need the help with Speed, Illusion can make it so much easier to force out the defensive checks you need for your main Web abuser to wreck house. It also has Sucker Punch to emergency check random shit that packs priority to ruin your fun. Of course, it's also nice knowing that no random Scarf user (besides Moltres or Braviary) is going to outspeed Zoroark to stop its sweep. Best part is that Mega-Bannette provides a great cover for Zoro as they take the same damage from hazards and the opponent isn't going to think of using Bug- or Fighting-type moves on Mega-Bannette and Zoro resists its weaknesses.
 
I've been using Cobalion to Set up Stealth Rock (Also able to take down some frail foes due to investment in bulk), Froslass to set up Spikes and then take down something with Destiny Bond, all the while Taunting and avoiding Hazards, Statuses or Defog. Then Golbat comes in with Toxic/Taunt/Roost/Brave Bird to stall away at least some health of the opponent's team. Most of the times, when they realize Golbat's bulk, they have to switch out, taking more Hazard damage. Things that can comes close to KOing can usually be covered with your teammates.

The premise is to keep on doing this as far as possible with this core. When the opponent has taken quite a lot of hazards damage, switch in with LO Yanmega, SubCM Delphox and Scarf Heliolisk as a backup to finish things off (SubCM Delphox can switch in on a lot of things, especially special walls and support mons. Once you get to +3, nothing can stop you). It's been an effective strategy. All the times I've lost, I've lost only because of bad prediction and play. Anyone with a keen sense of prediction can make excellent use of this team. Here's an importable:

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Iron Head
- Sacred Sword

Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond
- Ice Beam

Yanmega (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 144 Spd / 252 SAtk / 112 HP
Modest Nature
- Substitute
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Giga Drain

Delphox (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Spd / 148 SAtk / 108 HP
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
- Psyshock

Golbat (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 96 SDef / 252 HP / 160 Def
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Roost
- Brave Bird

Heliolisk (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Surf
 
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Glad you brought up Sticky Web Molk as it's actually something I've been experimenting as of late. Shuckle is super reliable, but I don't find the need to give it Sturdy since next to nothing is OHKOing it anyway. Contrary just kinda fucks with Defog users since it actually raises Evasion, making it harder to hit Shuckle with actual attacks. I actually don't find the need to use Braviary on Sticky Web. Why you ask? Simple: Mega-Bannette. Need a spinblocker and Defog prevention in one? Use Mega-Bannette. With Prankster Taunt and a cool Ghost-typing, M-Bannette can prevent Rapid Spin and Defog with just one slot. Most Defog users struggle to do a lot of damage to Mega-Bannette unless they're Shiftry or Skuntank, in which case, you just DBond their asses and take them down with you. You can employ the same tactic with an opposing spinner if it can beat M-Bannette one-on-one or if there's some serious threat that you need to take out ASAP (hi Moltres, Yanmega, and Braviary)
I've actually found Zoroark to be quite effective in Sticky Web offense. While it may not need the help with Speed, Illusion can make it so much easier to force out the defensive checks you need for your main Web abuser to wreck house. It also has Sucker Punch to emergency check random shit that packs priority to ruin your fun. Of course, it's also nice knowing that no random Scarf user (besides Moltres or Braviary) is going to outspeed Zoroark to stop its sweep. Best part is that Mega-Bannette provides a great cover for Zoro as they take the same damage from hazards and the opponent isn't going to think of using Bug- or Fighting-type moves on Mega-Bannette and Zoro resists its weaknesses.
The thing with using a fast Taunt user to stop Defog is that you need to predict the defogger switch-in before it actually happens, something difficult to do consistently. Or, a defogger can switch into you, but as you stated above, no defogger really wants to mess around with M-Banette. Banette is very effective in SW teams, but I'm unsure of its consistency of being a Defog preventer.
 
While Defog is definitely a good move, I barely see it. One reason might be that there aren't too many exceptional defoggers, most of them are eviolite users too (Togetic, Golbat, Gligar). Knock Off is an awfully scary move that makes these pokemon weaker than they should be so people don't run them often. There isn't even much of a reason to take a Defog counter anymore since you can set up hazards again anyways. It's not that they are that good.

Rapid Spinners on the other hand, I see these very often (and for a good reason).
 
While Defog is definitely a good move, I barely see it. One reason might be that there aren't too many exceptional defoggers, most of them are eviolite users too (Togetic, Golbat, Gligar). Knock Off is an awfully scary move that makes these pokemon weaker than they should be so people don't run them often. There isn't even much of a reason to take a Defog counter anymore since you can set up hazards again anyways. It's not that they are that good.

Rapid Spinners on the other hand, I see these very often (and for a good reason).
Gligar is still super bulky without an Eviolite and it is very reliable. You are kind of forced to run defog or nothing in stall teams because rapid spin users are terrible. I guess Hitmontop with Wish support can spin quite reliably thanks to Foresight but Claydol is straight up a terrible mon.
You are right speaking about offensive teams tho because Hitmonlee is fantastic to say the least thanks to Knock Off and Kabutops is also a decent choice. I guess you can run Shiftry but it has pretty bad bulk and not-that-good speed so it is easily forced out and it's difficult to get a defog off against offensive teams.
 

EonX

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I actually don't find Knock Off to be the biggest problem for Defog Gligar. What is disappointing though is that it has to run Hyper Cutter for its ability as Immunity isn't compatible with Defog, thus meaning you can poison Gligar with Toxic and ruin its defensive capabilities.

Kevun , yea, M-Bannette isn't exactly the best stop to Defog, but it can do a decent enough job that I don't really find the need for an outright Defog counter. That, and I don't find myself having to over rely on Sticky Web as I pack 2 priority users and a decently fast wallbreaker. So, for me, Webz is kind of more of a helpful ally rather than an actual necessity for my team to work. And that brings me to something.
I think a lot of people make the mistake of having their teams rely too heavily on Sticky Web. There's only one good user of Sticky Web (Shuckle) and it's a suicide lead. What does that mean? Well, it won't be hanging around mid-match to reset it if the opponent Defogs or Spins it away. It's nice to have slower crap like Exploud, Mega-Bannette, or Emboar abuse it early on, but I would only use one of the three and pack stuff like Moltres or Specs Yanmega, things that appreciate Sticky Web boosting their effectiveness, but don't exactly need it to always do their job effectively.
 
There's only one good user of Sticky Web (Shuckle) and it's a suicide lead.
The way I use it, I don't use Shuckle as a suicide lead. I find it a rather big waste of Shuckle's bulk to trash it immediately after doing its job, and I always try to preserve it (if I see a defogger/spinner). Of course, this is not always possible, but I've found on many occasions that saving Shuckle has helped greatly. Shuckle is one of the few, if only, SW setters that can reliably set webs two or more times during a match, and when there is a defogger/spinner, this can prove invaluable. Furthermore, you can use it as fodder, if nothing else. I'd recommend trying to save Shuckle after the initial lead if there is something that can remove your hazards reliably on your opponent's team. Of course, you shouldn't go out of your way, but if you see an opportunity, there is no reason to let it die.
 

complete legitimacy

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Golbat is cool.
It's one of the few Defog users that we have here in RU, and it is certainly a legitimate option. It is obnoxiously bulky with Eviolite, and even with all of the Knock Off mons, it is still bulky enough to take a hit or two without its Eviolite, so this really makes it stand out. I personally use Defog/Roost/Taunt/Brave Bird, but you can use a bunch of other stuff like Super Fang, U-turn, or Haze. Golbat is really good against mons like Virizion, Sceptile, Hitmonlee, and Aromatisse. Golbat is one of the best mons to use if your team has trouble dealing with stall, as it has pretty much all you could ask for in a stallbreaker. Defensive mons can't really touch it because of Taunt and Roost along with its incredible bulk, and it gets rid of the hazards that defensive teams rely on to win games. It also can't be Toxiced. It hasn't really entered the top levels of play yet, but I'd say that it deserves it RU status right now because it is a good option. Everyone in this thread should give Golbat a try; it's pretty good.
 
Hey Guys, long time move set stealer first time poster :)

I have decided to give this whole community thing a go despite me loathing people in general ;) anyway I wanted to post a move set that I haven't seen anyone else using and get some thoughts on it because I think it brings a niche to a pokemon that is otherwise rather lackluster in everything but tanking hits and doing very little back.

The Set!
IM Eely Good (Eelektross) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SDef
Bold Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Giga Drain
- Acid Spray​

The Niche.
Ok so Eelektross is now one of the few Pokemon with no weaknesses if not the only one thanks to fairy hitting Pokemon with the ghost/dark typing for Super Effective damage making its average defensive stats rather good since it will take a really powerful hit to do significant damage without a super effective typing advantage unfortunately Eelektross is less of a tank and more of a riot shield in that he can take hits but do very little back well this is were Acid Spray comes in.

So you switch in Eelektross in on something that can't touch him or something he can scare out with T-bolt and what happens?

well if they don't know what moves this thing gets they either bring in a grass or ground type to tank the Thunderbolt or they will bring in their special wall to tanks hits and wear it down. well not with acid spray. As they switch use acid spray and it will always (barring abilities like white smoke or clear body and of course steel typing) lower the Pokemons special defense by 2 making tanking hits very hard thanks to amazing coverage and this pseudo version of nasty plot and the best thing is Acid spray does damage as well meaning we can make full use of assault vest to make ourselves bulky on both sides of the defensive spectrum.

With 24 evs and assault vest we reach 303 special defense which is rather nice and with a bold nature and our given evs spread we reach 284 defense not to be sniffed at either and with 232 evs in hp this allows Eelektross to tank hits on both the physical and special sides with relative efficiency and kill the switch in before it can do significant damage to Eelektross.

The Moves

Thunderbolt for customary stab you can run volt switch for some added momentum but really your going to want the extra power Thunderbolt provides, Flamethrower allows us to mess up the plethora of grass types that try to switch in and tank a thunderbolt and also allows us to hit any steel types that are immune to Acid Spray for nice but nothing special super effective damage and lastly Giga drain for recovery and it works great to take down any ground types that think they can switch in on Eelektross and Lastly we have Acid Spray a 40 Special Damage poison Move with the after effect of always lowering the opponents special defense by 2 so we can hit common special walls and really anything that isnt immune to the the stat drop very hard with the appropriate move.

The Calcs
I have tried to list common special walls and anything that gets commonly switched in on it from my own personal experience.​

0 SpA Eelektross Thunderbolt vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hitmontop: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Specially defensive hitmontop switches in and you acid spray you can then go on to 2hko if your lucky thanks to the damage done by acid spray or 3hko while the only move he can use to do decent damage is close combat (30% damage a 4 hko) will actually guarantee you the 2hko thanks to the extra sp.def drop.

0 SpA Eelektross Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 92-110 (23.3 - 27.9%) -- 82.2% chance to 4HKO

Assault Vest Slowking arguably the best special wall in the business used to laugh at Eelektross with its pitiful stab super effective 4hko thunderbolt however with acid spray its now cowering in the corner screaming for mercy.

0 SpA Eelektross Thunderbolt vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 182-216 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO

and Considering it can only 5hko in return you can net some damage before it is either forced to be fodder or switched out.

0 SpA Eelektross Flamethrower vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 224-264 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Amoonguss used to switch in all day and now is 2hkod

If you manage to catch an assault vest tangrowth on the switch with acid spray you can then go on to kill it in one hit turning a 3hko flamethrower into a nice 2hko thanks to the damage done by acid spray.

0 SpA Eelektross Flamethrower vs. -2 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 250-296 (61.8 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even the almighty Togetic can't withstand the onslaught being 2hkod by tbolt if acid sprayed before hand

0 SpA Eelektross Thunderbolt vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 188-224 (59.8 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And now for my favourite

Cressilia the bane of RU so damn bulky catch it switching in with an acid spray and it cant sub up on you and it can barely 6hko you meaning it's going to have to toxic you and if you it hit with another acid spray lol

0 SpA Eelektross Thunderbolt vs. -4 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 243-286 (54.7 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Other Notable Shutdowns and 2hkos after Acidspray are

Virizion even max special defense versions can be taken out with 2 flamethrowers after stealth rock and acid spray damage,

Sigilyph cant boost that special defense with acid spray always lowering the special defense 1 more than cosmic power or calm mind,

Gastrodon for some reason is always switched in on this thing despite it getting giga drain so even without acid spray its a dead duck and will allow you to recover a nice chunk, after acid spray.

Max special defense Cofagrigus has a 78% chance to be 2hkod if you have stealth rock up otherwise it is a 3hko after lefties recovery

If for whatever reason Alomomola switches in and your Eel needs some healing DO NOT T-Bolt acid spray and giga drain can heal you to full health.

Stealth rocks turns a lot of these probable 2hkos into guaranteed 2hkos so it loves it some sr support.

Thanks for reading my ramblings about Eelektross I am interested to hear your thoughts on this poke and on acid spray in general I also used a Tentacruel max speed and max special atk with acid spray in ou and it had a field day killing off its counters and messing with all the bulky waters that wander around up there.
 
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aVocado

@ Everstone
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also, Arikado, both Shiftry and the other lower tier Grass/Dark (Cacturne) really interest me at the moment, would you or other people who have tried either mind sharing some good teammates etc?
I haven't really used him on many teams (just one, really), but it forms a pretty neat core with Moltres that I posted about in the cores thread. Also works with Slowking because it can switch into Heliolisk, something Slowking doesn't like.
 

Jaiho

bandy legged troll
The problem i see with that set is that with the assault vest and max hp max defense, your power is really limited. You are counting on hitting pretty much every switch-in with acid spray, and not realizing that not only can other 'mons hit it during that time, but eelektross is pretty damn slow, and a lot of the fast offensive threats can easily get 2 hits off. When your only recovery is a uninvested, unSTABed giga drain, taking hits is not a good thing. Eelektross is barely a good 'mon in general, somewhat similar to Electivire, since they both rely too heavily on SE coverage. Honestly, I see no reason to use Eelektross, since there are plenty of good electric types, such as the Rotom formes, Heliolisk, and Lanturn. Eelektross really struggles to differentiate itself in this meta.
 
I definitely agree that Sticky Web is a great playstyle in RU. I use Sticky Web all the time, and I've found it to be great. RU is chock full of things that can take advantage of it, like the things you listed. One thing I've noticed is that Gligar is perhaps one of the most reliable answers to Sticky Web. Even at +2, Braviary simply cannot muscle through Gligar (given it starts off at near-full health) without fainting due to Brave Bird recoil, as long as Gligar roosts the turn immediately after the switch-in. Alternatively, it is *extremely* easy to predict the Braviary (or other Defiant/Competitive users) switch-in, due to the fact that the Sticky Web user cannot afford to lose SW easily. I've also found that it is relatively difficult for an opponent facing SW to spin against it, even without spinblockers, as 2 of the 3 common spinners in RU (Hitmonlee and Kabutops) are frail and extremely crippled by SW, meaning that they often get killed prior to a spin. They have to constantly look for an opening, by time which their team has probably suffered heavy losses. Hitmontop, I've found, is the only thing capable of reliably spinning, especially considering it can spin against Ghost-types with Foresight. Finally, I'd like to mention that opposing Sticky Web is also troubling for SW teams, as most don't have an open slot to carry a dedicated spinner.

Furthermore, after playing SW for quite some time, I've noticed that the main issue I have is being too reliant on SW. Like I mentioned before, even if you do pack spinblockers and Braviary, you aren't guaranteed SW throughout the whole match. Sure, you can pack a scarfer, but if that gets defeated, you really have to work to get the win. I've noticed that slots are extremely tight when building an SW team. You prett much need Shuckle, Braviary (or another with a similar ability), a spinblocker, and a scarfer (unless if you use Braviary), leaving you with only two slots for sweepers. What I eventually started doing is dropping a spinblocker, and running something else instead. Like I said before, Hitmonlee and Kabutops are likely to get demolished before they can spin anyways, and Hitmontop can spin against Ghosts. Claydol can still spin against this, but I'd like to believe that people started realizing Claydol wasn't worth its weight, and stopped using it. Don't get me wrong, I understand that many things can function as both a spinblocker and a sweeper, like Mega Banette and Mismagius, but I just think that a spinblocker is an unnecessary requirement for SW. Thoughts?



Sadly, that's pretty much all of the commonly used offensive Flying-types in RU, except for Braviary. Still, I would have to agree that Flying-types and levitators aren't as a whole very threatening to SW, as most of them have a rather modest speed stat to begin with, or simply aren't used as offensive pokemon. Scarfed Braviary can be trouble, along with other fast scarfers, but SW teams usually carry a scarfer of their own, so this is rather easily dealt with.
I don't think Braviary is that important to have on a web team. I tried running one for a while and I found it didn't hit hard enough to get past bulkier threats, plus return/BB aren't the best STABs to be locked into early game when defogs are more likely to be attempted. Braviary hits decently hard, but it's simply too easy to wall without a boost while contrary Shuckle does a better job switching into defog and using the opportunity to set up webs again. I would much much rather have a spinblocker since spinners seem to be much more common than defoggers in RU, and there are much better options for stopping spins than there are for stopping defog. Doublade already beats every relevant spinner in the tier, I can't imagine why you'd opt not to use it on a web team.



Maybe it doesn't qualify as "commonly used", but Swellow can be a problem for web teams in some situations. Its speed stat and immunity to webs bears mentioning, at the very least.
About Braviary, what can Gligar do to Braviary even?

Standard Braviary sets can't get past it, but there is one major issue that gets overlooked here, which is a set that was one of the most common sets in Gen V NU for Braviary, and without a doubt the most dangerous, and that was SubBU Braviary.

Braviary @ Leftovers
Trait: Defiant
EVs: 252 HP / 192 SDef / 64 Speed
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Roost
- Brave Bird

This monster could set up on Regirock and defeat it, if one used Regirock as an attempt to counter Braviary, and one of the primary reasons for the rise of Golem instead of Regirock, because it had Rock Blast.
 
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