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While ladder for reqs (a living hell) i didn't see too many reuniclus but I saw a bunch of Noiverns. Noivern is a threat to most play styles. Ones being : Offense, Balance, and some bulky offense teams.
With that that leaves one play style decent against noivern which is stall, but stall is absolutely destroyed by Calm Mind Reuniclus.
These 2 mons are super diverse. From Reuniclus being able to run Offensive Trick room to Regenerator Choice specs, and Noivern being able to stall break with a bulky taunt roost set or just break down teams with 3 atks roost Life orb or Choice specs with trick or u-turn for momentum.
I think I'm leaning towards ban on both of these mons because of sheer power, versatility, and how much pressure they put on the meta.
One thing I can see rising as a threat if these 2 leave would be the use of fighting types. We have nothing for them besides a stray fletchinder and maybe swellow.
While ladder for reqs (a living hell) i didn't see too many reuniclus but I saw a bunch of Noiverns. Noivern is a threat to most play styles. Ones being : Offense, Balance, and some bulky offense teams.
With that that leaves one play style decent against noivern which is stall, but stall is absolutely destroyed by Calm Mind Reuniclus.
These 2 mons are super diverse. From Reuniclus being able to run Offensive Trick room to Regenerator Choice specs, and Noivern being able to stall break with a bulky taunt roost set or just break down teams with 3 atks roost Life orb or Choice specs with trick or u-turn for momentum.
I think I'm leaning towards ban on both of these mons because of sheer power, versatility, and how much pressure they put on the meta.
One thing I can see rising as a threat if these 2 leave would be the use of fighting types. We have nothing for them besides a stray fletchinder and maybe swellow.
We'd actually still have a fair amount of mons to deal with Fighting-types. Aromatisse, Togetic, Uxie, and Spiritomb are all solid Pokemon that handle most Fighting types defensively whereas offense would have the likes of Sigilyph, Delphox, and Meloetta to revenge kill many of them when / if necessary. Note that all 7 of the Pokemon I mentioned are severely hindered by at least one of the Pokemon currently being suspected (Noivern fucks up the offensive ones and Reuniclus uses Uxie and the defensive fairies as setup fodder. Tomb can at least dent Vern pretty hard and beats Reuni 1v1 unless it runs Signal Beam)
We'd actually still have a fair amount of mons to deal with Fighting-types. Aromatisse, Togetic, Uxie, and Spiritomb are all solid Pokemon that handle most Fighting types defensively whereas offense would have the likes of Sigilyph, Delphox, and Meloetta to revenge kill many of them when / if necessary. Note that all 7 of the Pokemon I mentioned are severely hindered by at least one of the Pokemon currently being suspected (Noivern fucks up the offensive ones and Reuniclus uses Uxie and the defensive fairies as setup fodder. Tomb can at least dent Vern pretty hard and beats Reuni 1v1 unless it runs Signal Beam)
Note that 7 mons don't make up a tier nor will they all be on one team.
I'm not referring to the moves but to the mons, you are saying as is I'm only gonna have fighting type moves. Personally cobalion sets up on 5/7 you have shown. Maybe sets up on delphox in some conditions but the only one who can hope to weaken it is spiritomb.
From most of the fighting types they will probably carry coverage to deal with the mons.
Not much handling medicham besides spiritomb which is a real momentum killer, and maybe uxie which I don't see getting lots of usage.
Note that 7 mons don't make up a tier nor will they all be on one team.
I'm not referring to the moves but to the mons, you are saying as is I'm only gonna have fighting type moves. Personally cobalion sets up on 5/7 you have shown. Maybe sets up on delphox in some conditions but the only one who can hope to weaken it is spiritomb.
From most of the fighting types they will probably carry coverage to deal with the mons.
Not much handling medicham besides spiritomb which is a real momentum killer, and maybe uxie which I don't see getting lots of usage.
I wasn't saying that 7 mons make a tier. I was just stating there are options for all team types since you stated we had nothing but a stray fletchinder and maybe swellow. Uxie will definitely rise if Reuniclus leaves considering Reuni is THE Psychic type in the tier right now. And I do have personal experience with Uxie and can say that it's a solid mon right now. It doesn't full-stop most Fighting-types, but I pair it with Aromatisse on an otherwise offensive team, and they work really well together. In fact, Uxie can actually build momentum with T-Wave / Yawn + U-turn. In fact, the only Fighting-type Uxie auto-loses to is Scrafty. It checks all the rest and cold stops Medicham at least twice.
As for Cobalion, it's a given that Jellicent is the best answer to it. It also happens to discourage the use of HJK which is conveniently run by Medicham, Hitmonlee, and Scrafty commonly. Tho you would have some nerve switching in Jelly on Scrafty. Yes, Fighting-types will be more common for sure if Reuniclus and Noivern leave. But we have more than a "stray Fletchinder and maybe Swellow" for them.
This is from someone who hasn't played ru since kingdra was banned and was excited to pick it up again. (I'm writing this post in the mid 2000s point but I think I've played enough of the ladder to see where a lot of this is coming from and hoping I can finish it up in the upcoming days.)
MY THOUGHTS:
Reuniclus: I won't lie this is my favorite pokemon (as shown by the name) so I just HAD to participate in the suspect that it is in to see if it is broken or not. I personally saw the two best set options and went for the cm stallbreaker reuni, because that is what is favored more in uu and I thought it would be very good down here as well. Many of the teams I faced with this set were fairly prepared for it with their spiritombs and other dark types, but overall once they were taken out of the way, reuniclus had a CLEAN sweep from what was left of the opposing team. I believe a major help for reuniclus is the loss of doublade in the tier as without it reuniclus was free to run focus blast to hit dark types over having shadow ball to hit many of the ghost types. I, however, decided to switch my kind of reuniclus part of the way through laddering and went for a trick room approach as it is my favorite play style and Reuniclus has done a lot of work on OTR. Not much is able to switch into this monster on trick room with life orb it has great coverage between shadow ball, focus blast, and psychic able to hit most of the meta for a large chuck of damage, OHKOing or 2HKOing almost everything in the tier bar mons like togetic and meloetta. It is also much bulkier than I first thought being able to take many non dark type moves and still be able to set up trick room and do work. Between the two sets reuniclus seems VERY overpowering for the tier, which is why I will be voting BAN on reuniclus even though it will still be my one true bae in my heart.
Noivern: Between this and kingdra dropping in the last tier shift and the loss of MANY different pokemon in ru, I was honestly surprised that that this wasn't quickbanned along with kingdra when I was playing ru and seeing these double dragons on most teams and a HUGE increase in the number of rain teams between the two, but back to the current meta. Noivern is a force to be wrecked with and it has scared the heck out of me on the ladder multiple times. I tried out some HO early on in the ladder, but it didn't last long due to this monstrosity being here and tearing up almost anything in its path on my team. I didn't have anything bulky enough that would want to take 2 hits from this thing's specs set and even the taunt set did huge damage on the switch ins and then there is the confusion from hurricane that REALLY threw it over the top. This thing reminds me of when moltres was in the tier, except this one doesn't take 50% from stealth rocks and NEEDS to be outsped by something with a scarf to be killed when playing with ho. When I switched over to TR I knew that this thing was going to be a major problem for me unless I was able to get Trick room up, so I had to make sure that I had a mon SPECIFICALLY for noivern and to make sure that it could set up trick room. I ended up resorting to heatproof bronzong which overall did its job fairly well tank noivern's hits, but if zong was gone and I was out of trick room mons, noivern ate the team alive for breakfast, basically killing anything that was left on the team. I also can't even IMAGINE how balance deals with this thing as it seems like it could destroy almost anyteam that does not have like 2-3 specific counters to this mon and I can say wholeheartedly that noivern is not healthy for the tier and I will be voting BAN on noivern as well.
I'm a uu player but I'd like to give my quick thoughts on noivern. noivern is far too good for ru. it drops dracos on anything that isn't a hard counter, and even with that it has access to trick. it has very good typing and over power stabs combine with great coverage. it is a beast non the less and for the sake of ru, it should go. ill need to play a bit more to get a feel for reuniclus.
Alright, I've just gotten reqs, and having used Noivern for the whole thing I have to say I'm leaning towards a ban for it.
On one hand, defensive Pokemon such as Togetic, specially defensive Aromatisse and, apparently, Cradily can all switch in, take less than 50% from any of attack and heal off the damage with recover/wish, as Noivern has issues spamming its most powerful attacks due to either low accuracy of hurricane or the stat drop of Draco Meteor. In addition, Pokemon such as Mega Glalie and Sneasel, as well as fast scarfers such as Medicham, are able to outspeed and OHKO Noivern.
On the other hand, with its fantastic speed and power it can outspeed and 1-2hko almost all offensive Pokemon, making offensive teams far less viable to use. It can, as stated earlier, be beaten by offensive Pokemon such as Mega Glalie, but Noivern is complemented quite nicely by Cobalion which happens to take on several of its checks. Against its defensive checks, Noivern can, albeit unreliably, beat several with hurricane spam should confusion hax come into play. It's not a particularly likely factor, but it can allow Noivern to brute force its way past something like jellicent. Another point is that some Noivern carry Taunt on the non-choiced sets which, while reducing the survivability that roost gives, allows it to beat several of its defensive checks easily, although Aromatisse and Togetic are still able to 2HKO back with Moonblast or Dazzling Gleam.
Anyway, I was undecided halfway through laddering but I eventually came to the conclusion that I think Noivern deserves a Ban.
As for Reuniclus, this thing is an absolute monster. Very little is able to switch in on a Calm Mind and then beat it, with that list I think being limited to AV Escavalier, Spiritomb and Encore users such as Togetic. Pokemon such as Drapion and Durant are able to hit it hard with Knock Off and X-Scissor respectively, but they both take very heavy damage from a +1 Focus Blast, which OHKO's Durant. With continued pressure from offensive Pokemon such as these it is possible to beat Reuniclus once it has set up, but it is still quite difficult due to its ridiculous bulk and its ability to heal with Recover and, if Knock Off hasn't been used, Leftovers.
I don't know much about stall, but I'd imagine Reuniclus is even better vs stall than it is vs offense, with an immunity to residual damage and the ability to set up and break through several walls with relative ease.
Anyway, although I haven't used Reuniclus myself, my experience with battling it leads me to believe that it is definitely deserving of a Ban.
After getting my reqs, I found that Noivern wasn't as hard to deal with as I imagined it to be. Not gonna lie, I went into this with a somewhat biased mindset about it and after playing with it and against it, I just found it to be not as powerful as what I imagined it to be and it really only hit stuff behind subs like Cobalion and Drapion. When facing balance/stall, it didn't really do a lot, because most of the time it didn't have taunt, so it could easily get LO stalled by spdef Jelli, Togetic and even Cradily. I'm not saying that it's bad, it's just it's speed tier makes it hard to offense to revenge kill it and puts a lot of pressure on hyper offense, making it harder to use, but not completely unviable. I think my opinion has changed about Noivern, so as of now, I'll leaning to no ban, but I'll still gonna play some more games on ladder before casting my final vote.
Reuniclus on the other hand, yeah, my opnion hasn't changed at all for that, still in a ban mindset for that and I don't think that'll ever change.
There are two things that changed in RU that made Reuniclus broken: the absence of Doublade and the fall of once conventional Psychic checks in Escavalier, Drapion, etc due to the rise of Mega Steelix. Doublade leaving is the biggest one though because of the fact that Reuniclus can run other moves in the fourth slot instead of Shadow Ball, the most prominent being Focus Blast, but other good alternatives in Signal Beam and Thunder Wave have their uses as well. This is big because the Pokemon that could once beat it before now get worn down over multiple or even one or two switch-ins (Drapion, Megahorn Rhyperior, Escavalier) or simply become ineffective when taking a Thunder Wave (Jellicent). Having the option to run Life Orb allows it to wear down its own checks at an even faster rate and makes it difficult to switch into pre setup as well. In my opinion, this is what makes Reuniclus so dangerous is the phenomenal variation it has with just one set. A lot of people like to harp on that a Pokemon is versatile because it can run more than two sets or something, but I don't think that truly denotes versatility and the dangers that come with a Pokemon that is. To me, versatility must be a different way to approach a means to an end; in the case of Reuniclus being able to execute its CM set in a lot of different ways, this is a Pokemon that I think can rightfully be called versatile, and as such, it becomes difficult to cover all possible variations on one team unless you run the only specific counter, Spiritomb, and that just isn't practical. All the cards fell into place and Reuniclus has really benefited from that massive metagame shifts that took place in the past several months that by far make it one of the most restricting Pokemon to take into account when teambuilding.
As a final note on Reuniclus: I don't get why people are going under the assumption that this thing is just a threat to stall; if anything, balance has the most difficulty with Reuniclus because those kinds of teams can't maintain their checks as long as stall can. Maintaining your check for a long period of time kinda matters vs Reuniclus because of its insane bulk + ability + recover which makes it damn hard to kill outside of monstrously powerful attacks or super effective STABs. This isn't even getting into how Thunder Wave Reuniclus is just as obnoxious versus offense as Thunder Wave Cresselia was. In contrast though, Reuniclus exchanges less bulk but can actually deal a good chunk of damage to most Pokemon on offense that can absorb a Thunder Wave, which imo, makes it a tad more annoying.
Noivern is something that I feel people aren't using to its best potential. While LO Roost + 3 Atks sets and Choice Specs sets are both good and even broken in the context of their power versus offensive teams, the set that makes Noivern absolutely ridiculous is the Taunt + Roost set. The reason why I think this set is better is because it holds an equal level of consistency against all playstyles and by that I mean it has the ability to obliterate most offensive threats with just two moves, while invalidating passive checks with Taunt by preventing them from using their recovery or status moves after they switch in on a hit, this in turn makes SpD Alomomola and Togetic go from solid checks to very poor ones. Even max SpD Togetic is taking 54% on average from a LO Hurricane followed by Stealth Rock, which forces it to Roost as it swaps in or it won't be able to switch into Noivern once more. In this instance, Noivern can easily Taunt Togetic and switch into one of the dozens of Pokemon in the tier that can take advantage of a defensive Togetic incapable of using its status moves. Because of Taunt, the only real Noivern check is SpD Aromatisse, and because that Pokemon is so easily exploitable due to its reliance on Wish + Protect recovery, even it isn't a reliable answer when Noivern is paired with a phaser such as Mega Steelix or Rhyperior. I doubt Noivern will end up staying in the tier, but if it does, I think people will realize over time just how disgusting that Pokemon is and that not even stall is safe from it.
Noivern: Definitely deserves a ban. This is a bit like a slightly weaker Moltres but without the extra Stealth Rock weakness and higher speed. To offensive teams, it is such a pain to deal with due to its naturally high speed and powerful attacks which allows it to 2HKO or OHKO a majority of the meta. Taunt+Roost sets can break balanced and stall teams with ease. Some people argue that Noivern has consistent checks such as Aromatisse, Spdef Jellicent and Bronzong. But Aromatisse would take a lot from Hurricane unless it is a Spdef set while Jellicent falls to Taunt+Roost variants unless it packs Ice Beam. Bronzong does not like taking Flamethrowers or Focus Blast. I've also seen some Specs+Trick sets that can cripple its defensive checks while still displaying a large amount of offensive prowess. All in all, Noivern is a huge threat for all playstyles and needs to leave this tier.
Reuniclus: At first I was unsure of whether this mon should be banned or not but Doublade and Cress leaving has greatly benefitted it. The fall in usage of Drapion and Escavalier has also helped it. With magic guard, it can easily ease setup as it can't be worn down by entry hazards or Toxic. It now can run another move on the CM set apart from Shadow Ball. It can run Focus Blast to smack Dark-Types like Sneasel and Scrafty. It can also have the option to run Thunder Wave, which cripples Reuniclus' offensive switch-ins. Signal Beam and Acid Armor are also viable options on the last slot. This makes Reuniclus extremely unpredictable as players would not be sure of what it carries and most of the time it would be too late if players know what it runs. Spdef Jellicent is not a counter to Reuniclus unless it is the Taunt+Shadow Ball sets. OTR set is also quite a great set as it allows Reuniclus to be a fearsome late-game sweeper and a bane to offensive teams. This allows Reuniclus to be very unpredictable as opponents have to rely on predicting Reuniclus's sets in team preview. Overall, I now feel that Reuniclus is unhealthy for the tier and deserves to be banned.
idk if i have any immediate obligation to post my thoughts on this and that, what with being an abusive council guy and what have you, but kinda-sorta was tempted to (though it seems votes are swinging as i'd like them to, which is rad).
what makes bulky magic guards, at least within the context of their conservative boosting sets (calm mind here, given it's certainly the variant warranting suspect) so potent is their ability to indirectly force slower or defensive builds to incorporate highly active counters (as checks simply don't cut it, given how often these teams will concede turns to these pokemon to come in and try again) as to avoid being blasted out the water. impunity to passive damage pretty much disallows any real alternative to these defensive builds in combatting this pokemon, given that the pool of feasible perish song users is painfully slim, making the only real alternative splurging for either a booster that could handle it or a pokemon with pokemon a relevant combination of resists, bulk, and access to taunt. prior to this point (ie.pre-tier shifts), this was /slightly/ more feasible, but with the departure of the biggest reason to run shadow ball for coverage, doublade, as well as a decent deterrant in whimsicott, this pokemon became execrably more difficult to keep under wraps. in affording it the ability to run focus blast, not only do curse steel-types lose their ability to function as decent checks to the conventional sets (cm + acid armor sets could still beat those, but they required additional team support, 'balancing' this trade-off), but now strong dark likes sneasel, doomer, etc. lose their ability to present dangerous and unmitigated counterplay to the pokemon when it comes in. furthermore, the consistently of previous meta staples such as drapion has decreased with the overall 'speed' of the tier being bumped up substantially (alongside other points like flygon being a super-splashable check, conceding turns to most scrafty sets, etc.), making it that much more challenging to effectively incorporate reasonable defensive checks to it. atm, we are restricted largely to cm and / or taunt spiritomb, malamar, escavalier, and opposing cm reunicus @ life orb, which is not something i'd advocate in an ideal, healthy meta state.
maybe i could say things about noivern, but i'd likely rehash things i or others have already said a bunch, and i was advocating a ban for this since theorymon stages of this meta, so i'll leave it well enough alone for the time being haha
Noivern: Ban
Noivern can check offensive teams pretty reliably, and it resides in a GREAT speed tier, even unboosted. It can stallbreak with Taunt or Trick and even Roost, wallbreak with Choice Specs/Life Orb, have a bit of utility with U-Turn, and do many other things. I also realized right after the tier shift that Rapid Spinners and Noivern love each other. Noivern is unhealthy for the tier and needs to go back to UU. Er.....BL2?
Reuniclus: Ban
I think that partially this is being suspected because of the tier shift, but the other half which I will say stands out a lot more. With Doublade among others leaving the tier (most notably, well, Doublade, Cress, and Whimiscott with Taunt), plus Escavalier and some Dark types like Skuntank not being used as much, Reuniclus has greatly been benefitted. And that made it unhealthy for the tier. Calm Mind sets ruin offensive teams, and it dosen't care about status OR hazards, and even if you don't run Magic Guard for some reason, you run Regenerator, which is also good, and it can eat up most neutral hits. So, ban this thing.
After getting reqs, I can say without a doubt in my mind that that was one of the most cancerous and completely unenjoyable ladder runs I've had in a long time. Why do I dislike the ladder so much? I would say it's because nearly every team consists of pretty much the same Pokemon: One or more of Reuniclus, Noivern, and Cobalion and checks and counters to Reuniclus, Noivern, and Cobalion. The remaining slots are then prepped for hazard / hazard control and ways to handle the remaining threats in the tier. The heavy strain the suspects and Cobalion are putting on teambuilding is just way too much in my opinion. Just going to point out that at least 70% of the teams I faced on the ladder had a Jellicent. I ended up taking a break every few battles because laddering much longer than that would probably leave me salty the rest of the day. I would post a lot more about how I feel about the current state of the meta, but I don't want to start ranting, so here are some thoughts on the suspects.
Alright, so I did some calcs and Noivern can 2HKO almost everything in the tier after Stealth Rock and maybe a bit of prior damage (like knocking off Togetic's Eviolite or Aromatisse's Leftovers with Scrafty). Of relevant stuff I found that take it on defensively, there's Mega Audino, Aromatisse, Togetic (hitting two Hurricanes in a row is lucky for these three, but not implausible), and Ice Beam Jellicent (I hope I didn't miss any). Stuff like Alomomola just lose to Taunt so I'm not going to include them at all. I would actually be okay with this, considering the accuracy of Hurricane and reliance on a STAB that lowers SpA, but its Speed tier really puts it over the top. It outspeeds every unboosted Pokemon in the tier bar Accelgor and Jolteon, both of which can't switch in. In fact, Noivern can almost singlehandedly destroy offensive teams. People are forced to run Sneasel, Mega Glalie, etc to take it out with Ice Shard, use a Choice Scarf user like Tyrantrum or Flygon, or use HP Ice Accelgor / Jolteon. That's it. There are some Pokemon that can take a hit and OHKO back like Rhyperior, HP Ice Eelektross, based Choice Specs Jellicent (thanks for the awesome team 49 I used it to get reqs and while it's super weak to Meloetta, it's pretty solid otherwise), etc, but they can't handle Noivern consistently. I'm just glad that the majority of Noivern that I faced didn't run Taunt. I'm definitely voting ban on this monster.
Reuniclus feels significantly less broken compared to Noivern for a variety of reasons. 1) It isn't too difficult to pressure it with a wallbreaker such as Choice Band Tyrantrum or Choice Band / Charcoal Emboar. Said wallbreakers can limit how much Reuniclus can set up and can put it in range of being revenge killed. 2) There are very solid checks and counters to Reuniclus that don't have to change their sets to accommodate themselves to it and are not only run to specifically beat Reuniclus (looking at you random Ice Beam bulky mons). Durant, Escavalier, Megahorn Rhyperior, Choice Band Drapion (and in some cases Swords Dance), Houndoom, several Meloetta variants, Scrafty, Skuntank, and Shiftry put tons of pressure on Reuniclus and can either OHKO it or inflict enough damage to where something else can come in and revenge kill it. 3) It's Calm Mind set doesn't actually break stall in the way that everyone seems to imply, and it doesn't help that stall isn't that common in the first place. Curse Quagsire, that Calm Mind Spiritomb set tehy posted, Resttalk SD Escavalier, and SubCM Meloetta are all Pokemon that have a place on stall that beat Reuniclus (I could be missing one or two, mainly because I rarely ever play stall). Do I consider Reuniclus to be broken, despite all of this? Yes. For the first point, Reuniclus can run Acid Armor alongside Dugtrio support to really make setting up easier. Knock Off Reuniclus is also pretty awesome to remove boosting items and making Pokemon that rely on them much easier to deal with. On the second point, most of the Pokemon listed are relatively easy to wear down with repeated Focus Blasts and a lot of them get demolished by Trick Room Reuniclus. Thunder Wave is a great way to deal with a lot of these Pokemon as it makes them a lot easier for the rest of the team to weaken to the point where Reuniclus can outspeed and KO. Some of them just get trapped by Dugtrio and either KOed or heavily weakened to make sweeping much easier for Reuniclus. On the third point, use RestTalk Work Up Exploud if real. :] Yeah, you're just gonna have to do your best to break down Reuniclus's counters on stall. It's worth pointing out that it's really hard to simply wear down Reuniclus because it's immune to passive damage, so it's really simple for Reuniclus to switch in and out without much worry. Reuniclus also seems broken to me so I'm gonna go with ban.
I'm a bit late to the party, so much of what I think about the current suspects has already been said. One point that I think has been understated, and which I will thus touch on, is the versatility of both Noivern and Reuniclus.
Some people think of Noivern as very one-dimensional and thus relatively easy to prepare for. Granted, it's fairly safe to assume that it will always be carrying dual STABs, almost always Flamethrower, and then some filler. But the versatility of the 4th slot allows Noivern to be thrown on almost every team that's not full stall. Roost is fairly standard, but it is far from the only option: with taunt it serves as an excellent anti-lead and good stall-breaker of sorts; with U-Turn it can fit on a Volt-Turn core/team; Specs sets can run Switcheroo to cripple walls that try to switch in; it can even run Tailwind for a clutch late-game assist on Hyper Offense teams. I've even been running Noivern on Rain to great effect, with it obviously benefitting from 100% accurate Hurricanes, and simply running Focus Blast in lieu of Flamethrower.
Despite what the ladder might think, there is more to Reuniclus than ye olde CM Recover. Reuniclus is one of the most versatile Pokémon in the tier right now, perhaps only behind Cobalion and Scrafty. Every viable team needs a Reuniclus check by default, yet the only two Pokémon that can beat both CM Recover and OTR 100% of the time are AV Escavalier and Taunt Spiritomb. OTR 2HKO's even Specially Defensive Jellicent with a tad of prior damage, Scrafty and Houndoom get bopped by Focus Blast, Offensive Drapion might get KO'd by LO Focus Blast after Rocks, Specially Defensive Drapion doesn't do enough with Knock Off, non-AV Escavalier gets 2HKO'd by LO Focus Blast, and non-Taunt Spiritomb loses to CM shenanigans.
For these reasons, I will be voting to BAN both.
On a related note, I realize that without these two Pokémon in the tier, Fighting types, especially Cobalion, will become extremely good, perhaps even bringing Cobalion to ban-worthy levels. That said, there's really nothing we can do but deal with it when it happens.
Reasonably close to reqs (2151 with 82 COIL) I'll make my post now.
Noivern: Okay I was super adamant about banning this when it started but idk now. It's definitely a top tier mon don't get me wrong, does wonders vs. offense, but there's just so many checks. Anything with good priority or scarf or possible faster (Glalie, Sneasel, HP Icelgor, Jolteon, Scarf Flygon) beats it on the offensive side, and fat SpDef mons (Aromatisse, Jelli) can take hits and recover it off. Aromatisse can't even be taunted for those who swear by the Taunt Roost set. Honestly, I'm on the fence but leaning towards no ban.
Reuniclus: where do I begin. Easily the best mon in the tier right now. Calm Mind set is such an amazing wincon on almost all types of teams, OTR hits crazy hard, LO is good at beating switchins, and SpecsSight is very good at hit and run once dark types are gone. Too versatile, too bulky, just too damn good. Ban.
Imma just drop one of my favorite sets of the meta right here. Beats me why Spirit hasn't hyped this set since I took from him but I'll hype it lol.Eggy's above average bulk allows it to take advantage of Pokemon like Cobalion, or those locked into weak moves like TBolt Specs Jolt and fire off a crazy powerful Leaf Storm. Psychic is other STAB, Sleep is good on predicts, and giga is when you need to stay in for more than one turn and heal up. Very good, go try it.
Made reqs in one day after not touching RU for several months and stealing the team Meru used lol, that squad is lord af
Anyways, I know for certain I will be voting Ban on Reuniclus. The CM set alone pressures the living shit out of so many teams. Idk how OTR is in RU since I have neither seen it nor used it, but as far as I know, it's totally capable of dismantling so many offensive teams on its own, which should be similar to the way I've seen it in UU. As for AV Reuniclus, that shit was too fucking hilarious lol, I bet it caught lots of peeps off guard
Regarding Noivern, I'm not certain about its brokenness. It definitely puts a certain level of strain on teambuilding as it can easily overpower teams lacking fat spdef 'mons that can take its powerful STAB hits, but in my short ladder experience, it was definitely easier to manage Noivern than it was Reuniclus. I may just Abstain on Noivern if I don't come to a complete conclusion.
I also think Cobalion needs a close monitoring at, since it's already pretty damn ridiculous even with two other suspects (both which happen to check it) in this tier. With fewer 'mons in RU that can capably rk Cobalion unlike the fire and fighting-infested UU meta, it'll definitely be something to monitor very closely due to its countless opportunities to set up and wipe the floor clean on many teams.
Before the suspect test ends, I'd like to give a shout out to the set that got me reqs. Figure it'd be appropriate to post since dingbat just gave me a shoutout for giving him a team with it and EonX gave me an anti-shoutout for wrecking him with it.
I think this set has great merit in this meta for being able to go toe-to-toe with Noivern and beat it. EVs are just max SpA with a Modest nature to maximize power and then enough speed to creep on opposing Reuniclus and Mega Steelix with the benchmark of outspeeding 0 spe Bronzong. Assault Vest combined with Regenerator lets it keep most special threats in check if you keep good hazard control, as not many attacks can break 33%. Noivern's LO Draco Meteor doesn't even break half, so most of it can be regenerated off afterwards. It also made a good emergency check to some hyper offensive threats, as I found it living a +2 LO Modest Victreebel Solar Beam, letting it shut down the entire Sun team's momentum
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Reuniclus: 173-204 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Reuniclus: 355-419 (85.1 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
In addition to sheer bulk and difficulty in taking out Reuniclus that both AV and Regenerator have together, the set has another twist that lets it keep good momentum. Future Sight is able to provide enormous pressure to the opponent if it doesn't have a Dark-type STAB, and even if they do, you can pair it with something like Rhyperior Cobalion or Mega Steelix which are able to threaten common Dark-types like Drapion and Skuntank should they choose to stay in. Fairy-types can also do well to force out Scrafty and Spiritomb, although the selection of Fairy-types is relatively poor now that Whimsicott has left the tier.
So after hours of raging on the RU ladder, I managed to get to 2800 at last, and oml I hate this tier. Maybe it was the teams I was using (or the fact that I'm just not that great of a player lol) but I found getting these hard and tedious. And its not just Noivern or Reuniclus, this tier is really screwed up right now. So anyway my opinions are pretty much like anyone else's. Oh and here's the progression of the teams I used on the ladder for those who may want to see, s/o to 49 for the Flygon set I really enjoyed it: http://pastebin.com/f5E6D7RC
Noivern I found to be way worst than Reuniclus. It's not just the fact that it lacks switch-ins on offense that breaks it so much in my opinion. I mean Exploud is here (which btw still can pressure offense). Its the fact that it constantly forces in a cycle of sack a mon, bring out a revenge killer, noivern switches out, and then revenge killer switches out. It also is pretty annoying that nearly every pokemon that Noivern is revenged killed by is stealth rock weak, giving them limited switchins. I had an old team with Spikes+Noivern that was doing decently well but I deleted it for other reasons. Scarf Flygon is the only revenge killer that warn down easily by hazards, but I've never enjoyed Scarf Flygon, its way better off with a boosting item or support moves. Its nearly unmatched speed tier also makes it extremely deadly. Unlike Ambipom, another mon that has a better match-up versus offense, Noivern actually has a decent typing to do the job and STAB's to do the job while viably being able to run Taunt, Roost and Switcheroo makes it not completely dead weight against Stall or Balance. Therefore, I vote ban on Noivern. (bye one of my fav dragons :[)
Reuniclus I also say ban. When I first started laddering, I was just going to vote abstain, until I realized how versatile it truly is. I went in on the ladder under the mindset that everyone would just be running Calm Mind/Focus Blast/Psyshock/Recover and was soon surprised early on as many other sets began to pop up, the OTR set, Thunder Wave (i would like to kindly say fuck anyone who used that n_n) and even the AV set Meru posted that I believe I fought twice and only realized it was AV while reading this tread rofl. It also doesn't help how nearly every counter is a Cobalion switch-in or trapped by Dugtrio. Most of its counters just do a horrible job. This tier has always had that problem, even while Cresselia was here, most of our psychic checks are just garbage. Drapion is trapped by duggy and Cobalion or Steelix bait. Spiritomb's ok but its lack of a good STAB and speed are really a hindrance. Escavalier is probably the best counter. Curse Quagsire is cool but loses to Life orb. Doublade would be useful if it was still here, but it still struggled with Shadow Ball Reuni so it leaving I dont think truly has that big of an effect on Reuniclus being broken. As for checks, wallbreakers do help, but no a lot switch in as easily to fully offensive Reuniclus.
I'd also like to give s/o's to tehy for his wise words, Senpai D.M and thecrystalonix for moral support, Temperarious for the sun team that did nothing for me but still was really cool and everyone from the Rarelyused room who helped to make my laddering experience better. May the Dazzling Meme live forever!
Probably won't finish reqs cos I'm quite busy this week, but still wanted to post. Not long and in deatil, just a few thoughts
Both Noivern and Reuniclus seem to have an air of 'inevitability' about them. You can continue to check and counter them early game, but eventually you will lose.
Noivern's Life Orb of Draco Meteor, Hurricane, and Flamethrower can absolutely demolish offensive teams as soon as it gets in. Against bulkier teams, it can easily find time to roost and continue to do damage throughout the match. Many of its decent switchins will eventually get worn down. Most things get 2HKOd, and the bulkier switchins , e.g. Assvest will eventually just get worn down through repeated switchins. I feel like balance is the best playstyle against Noivern since it can have some bulky switchins, but then some offensive pressure which can prevent it from roosting, allowing it to be worn down. I'd say Noivern is broken, but it's less clear cut than Reuniclus.
Reuniclus is much worse imo, it has such great longevity that it will just outlast its counters, it can switch in with its massive bulk throughout the match, and just chip away forcing its counters to switch in, take chip damage from hazards, whilst Reuniclus is almost impossible to wear down. Eventually, it just outlasts them. Not to mention its options on the final slot allowing it to wear down counters even easier (choice between focus blast, shadow ball, twave).
Not much else to add that hasn't already been said.
Ok well I just got reqs and I'll share some thoughts (PRAISE RAIN)
Noivern: This mon was ridiculously hard to switch into, due to its strong and fast Draco's, plus access to other moves such as Hurricane, Boomburst, and flamethrower. This provides it with ridiculously good coverage as well as the speed to back it up. I found the LO set was the most deadly set, obviously with the ability to switch moves for the different checks that are switching in. I'm definitely going to vote ban on this monster.
Reuniclus: With the exceptional bulk and sweeping potential with CM sets, this thing seems way too good for the tier. People in UU thought that it should've rose with Cresselia, Doublade, Whims, etc. I think it missed rising to UU by a couple of usage points, because this thing is used a ton in UU. I'm going to vote ban on this one as well.
after many many painful games of tilt and hax. I would like to give my thoughts on reuniclus(now that I have reqs). reuniclus is a very powerful bulky sweeper than sets on easily on any teams not prepared for it. I've noticed a huge influx of drapions and escavaliers. even in uu reuniclus is a lord and can destroy most unprepared teams as well. ill be voting ban on both noivern and reuniclus. gl with reqs if you haven't got it yet!
I've just gotten my reqs, and I feel as though both Noivern and Reuniclus are unhealthy for the tier and should be banned.
Noivern is an nightmare for offense to deal with. Due to its high speed and powerful STABs, Noivern has next to no switch-ins on offensive teams, and as such the only reliable way for offense to kill it is Choice Scarf users and/or priority, both of which can be prevented by Noivern simply switching out. Although offense, particular HO doesn't have to have a switchin (as in, something that doesn't get 2HKO'd) to every threat (see: Exploud), as Noivern outspeeds nearly all the relevant 'mons on the playstyle, it can cause serious damage, if not outright 6-0 offensive teams that don't carry multiple checks to it. As such, Noivern is extremely detrimental to the viability of offensive teams (and that's not even considering how good Taunt/Roost is against balance and stall), and as such deserves a ban.
Reuniclus is a much more tricky suspect. At the beginning of the test, I really wasn't sure if it deserved a ban or not, as although the CM set was very good vs balance and stall, such teams usually carried at least one Dark-type that could heavily damage, if not outright OHKO it. However, OTR Reuniclus is a very different beast. I used a Trick Room team on the ladder, and Reuniclus was easily the MVP. Offensive teams usually rely on faster Dark-types or Mega Steelix to defensively check Reuniclus. However, with the speed tiers reversed, many of these Pokemon actually ending up losing 1v1, as OTR Reuniclus always runs Focus Blast.
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Houndoom: 434-512 (149.1 - 175.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (this is assuming it's non-mixed Houndoom, which although rare, still beats it with Sucker Punch)
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Drapion: 230-272 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Reuniclus: 312-368 (73.5 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Steelix: 270-320 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Steelix: 380-447 (107.3 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Steelix Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Reuniclus: 220-261 (51.8 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scrafty: 322-382 (118.8 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Scrafty Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Reuniclus: 312-368 (73.5 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As such, any offensive team using a combination of a Dark-type [EDIT: aside from mixed Houndoom, ty Lord Death Man for pointing that out] + Mega Steelix to defensively check CM Reuniclus often ends up losing to OTR (assuming Focus Blast doesn't miss), as once these checks are gone, little stands in the way of a Reuniclus sweep. Balance and stall teams are also threatened greatly; balance has difficulty stomaching Reuniclus' powerful Psychic's (that's the move, not the type), and stall is, quite simply unable to wear Reuniclus down due to Magic Guard and its access to Recover. This is especially noticeable when Reuniclus is accompanied by Dugtrio or Pursuit support. Overall, OTR Reuniclus is easily able to sweep offensive teams and also has a favourable match-up vs. stall and balance, as such I believe it is too powerful for this tier and also needs a ban.
Aside from the suspects, here's another set that has worked really well for me on the ladder.
Why use Uxie over other dedicated Trick Room setters such as Aromatisse and Bronzong? A few reasons. Firstly, Uxie is the only Trick Room setter to have the combination of Trick Room, Stealth Rock, and U-turn, allowing it to set up Stealth Rock, then Trick Room, then get one of your sweepers in safely with its relatively slow U-turn. Secondly, Uxie is the only Trick Room setter that can reliably check Cobalion, as with 196 Defense EVs, Cobalion's +2 Iron Head is only a 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. This allows it to take a hit on the switch, set up Trick Room, then U-turn out into a sweeper better equipped to take Cobalion down (I like Emboar for this because it resists Iron Head and can OHKO Coba the next turn with Flare Blitz). Overall, a pretty good set that can work really well on full TR teams.
Edit: Lord Death Man and I discussed it over PS, and we realised that mixed Houndoom still beats OTR Reuniclus. Edited in accordingly.
After getting reqs, I can safely say that they're really fun to abuse, but they're clearly broken in the current meta. Noivern gets everything it needs to be good (High BP STABs, and Focus Blast + Flamethrower for coverage), including extra moves to increase its unpredictability including Switcheroo, Taunt, and U-turn. The only thing making it somewhat checkable is Hurricane misses or getting up Rocks and threatening it out. (Or run AV Reun <3) With that said, Ban
As for Reuniclus, its AV + Future Sight set is so much fun to use, but when every team carries 2 checks and a Pursuiter you know it's overcentralizing. Even though recent drops such as Scrafty can threaten it out, not a lot can switch into it and even then, you don't know what set it is. Sack its appropiate check too early and it's gg. Finally, whether its CM, or OTR it's really good so *cry* Ban
Also, once those 2 are gone, praise Virizion and Cobalion!
