Metagame NP: RU Stage 10: Your Makeup is Terrible

[ss234]

can confirm that melo is v good right now. Subcm is really difficult to deal with for fat teams because psychic / fighting coverage allows it to bust through mlix + mola + fairy cores with ease since a +1 focus blast is an easy 2hko on spdef mlix. It's also bulky enough to soft check stuff like virizion which is a very threatening mon atm, so yeah it's a good option on bulky offense / balanced squads that need a good stall breaker.

Another pkmn that is good atm is durant. With cobalion gone, durant can spam it's STABs much easier now so band and scarf are a lot better. Thanks to the steel typing it's also a good answer to glalie and can take advantage of a flygon outrage - glalie in particular is really difficult for offense to deal with but ant handles it just fine. Checking virizion, houdoom and meloetta is also really nice and of course durant is still an excellent wall breaker with hustle. Missing is the worst though.

Also atomicllamas is still the best at calling ppl out n_n

 

[Mew2]

After not playing Pokemon for a while and only laddering for RU suspect tests I decided to return to the RU forums to talk about a topic that has bugged me for quite some time. As a mostly defensive player, strong wallbreakers like CB Rhyperior and offensive Tangrowth have been always a problem but most of the time they have multiple counters. However I feel that Exploud has always been the man to beat for stall teams since the beginning for RU and I always felt that I had to run at least two resistances to deal with him. Thanks to the recent tier shifts (Slowking, Cress, Doublade) moving to UU stall has a harder time on the tier and with Cobalion gone from the tier, RU stall has almost no chance against Exploud. I think we all know the killing capabilities of the Specs set by now but for those new/ in denial of how hard is it to Stall to manage Exploud here is how much the "best counters" of Exploud can take from a BoomBurst:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Rhyperior: 168-198 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Steelix: 110-129 (31 - 36.4%) -- 65.8% chance to 3HK252+ SpA Choice Specs
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 178-211 (44 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 80-94 (21.9 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 96-113 (28.4 - 33.4%) -- 92.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Aside from the last 2 not being the best pokes of the meta atm (don't get me wrong, they are still viable but not the best) none of them have reliable recovery and get trapped by Dugtrio, a common Exploud partner or Pursuit trapped by Tomb and Houndoom in Bronzong and Melloetta's case. Also, I would like to give a quick parenthesis to the Work Up set that decimates stall but that set isn't common and I don't really see it rising in popularity but it still exists. In conclusion I feel that the best way to succeed with a stall team nowadays is having a weird designated Exploud counter like Cradily or Bastidon which is not what a healthy meta should be. I'm not saying that we should ban Exploud but something has to be made about the current metagame situation.

 

[Lord Death Man]

I'd also like to point out that it only really takes one layer of spikes to keep these mons from switching in a second time (except bronzong). Cradily is like the only thing that checks Exploud and has reliable recovery and while Cradily isn't bad, having one check doesn't make Exploud not broken. Exploud takes neutral hits like a champ, surviving things like Mega Camerupt's Earth Power and Specs Meloetta's stabs from full as well, meaning it's still pretty great against Balance and decently useful (ie can force a trade after something gets revenged, not ideal for any mon but it's not dead weight for sure) against offense if played well. It's ridiculous synergy with Pursuit and Dugtrio just make it that much worse to deal with.

 

[Punchshroom]

So I still see people running around with Bulk Up Scrafty, and I don't know why when DD Scrafty is the far superior setup threat, and CB Scrafty also gets things going far more quickly when it is as slow as it is due to its hit-and-run nature. BU Scrafty will not go very far in terms of setup since the bulk increase won't save it from Fighting-types, Fairy attacks, or special nukes (while Dragon Dance's Speed boost actually does). Hell, if you want to use something akin to BU Scrafty, try Malamar instead.

Malamar @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 140 HP / 136 SpD / 232 Spe
Careful Nature
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

It is fundamentally similar to BU Scrafty what with its identical coverage and use of Rest, except since Malamar exchanges Bulk Up in lieu of Sleep Talk, so Malamar can operate as a bulky booster + status absorber much like Scrafty does, except it doesn't have to wait for Shed Skin to wake it up. Malamar also has a superior Speed tier than Scrafty which it can definitely make use of: the given Speed investment allows Malamar to outrun Magneton, the fastest nuke that doesn't commonly run a Speed boosting nature, as well as outrunning Exploud, neutral natured Emboar, and Clawitzer, all three of which would totally lay the hurt on BU Scrafty. The only real downside I can say about Malamar compared to BU Scrafty is that it doesn't deal with Spiritomb as well, but the 4x Bug weakness ain't even that big of a deal when u consider that Escavalier (whose Speed disadvantage can put it behind against a boosted Malamar) and Durant (which may not even carry Bug moves these days) are nowhere near as problematic or frequent for it as powerful Fighting-types or Fairy attacks are for BU Scrafty.

Tldr: don't bother with BU Scrafty, just use Malamar instead.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-247952157 (turn 10 onward) let's see BU Scrafty do any of this

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

I finally did some laddering (or played pokemon in general) for the first time since pre-RUPL! Holy fuck things are different now. I've never been the greatest player or teambuilder out there, but today I saw my rustiness in both! So I'm back to be a shitter once in a while!



Anyways, I completely agree with BU Scrafty being a poor set in this meta. From what I've seen, the prevalence of both Virizion and Emboar alone makes BU Scrafty's groins hurt (as well as other Scrafty!) and the general existence of Hitmonlee, Medicham and I guess Gallade too. Odds are, you'll find one or maybe two of these mons on most teams, and seeing that Aromatisse and Togetic still exists on more defensive inclined teams (which is BU Scrafty's best matchup, in theory), I find it hard to make a case for it's viability as it is. It really needs to actually get going before it can take on anything, but that alone is a challenge. Malamar at the very least has the potential to fuck over things whilst setting up, and continue to do so through both sturdiness and a "good typing" (in that there's only really U-turns and Megahorns that are thrown around). And RestTalk is just as reliable as Rest Shedskin, both being 33%, unless you really do not care which of your offensive moves you get on Malamar (which makes RestTalk more consistent and reliable, as weird as that sounds).

Which brings me onto my next point; What does BU Scrafty really setup at? Well, Alomomola (but that thing is setup fodder for everything aside from maybe RP Rhyp), Bronzong I guess (but he doesn't seem to be in a favorable meta), Cofag (same as Bronzong really), Registeel I guess... Short story even shorter, it sets up on passive stallmons that are already considered to be setup fodder for many things. But no stall team in today's meta wouldn't run a fairy, I think (tehy Senpai D.M Meru (if you still play RU idk), any other stall player really, confirm if I'm right here lol). And Malamar sets up on the same mons, just more effectively, aside from maybe Spiritomb and Cofag. So... I really don't see why BU Scrafty should ever be used, aside from the cool factor.



Enough about that stuff tho. I tried out a couple different teams in my ladder session today, some balance and some stall (for those that knows me, I prefer slower teams). I used this Virizion on most of the teams as my fun "shitmon" set, as some kind of pseudo stall and balance breaker, and it worked quite well imo. Sometimes the lack of Leaf Blade hurt but eh. The EVs are still not really adjusted well yet, but what can you do from a short time?

Virizion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 120 HP / 136 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Synthesis
- Taunt
- Swords Dance

It's kinda like a slightly more offensive variant of a set I believe EonX posted a long time ago, which I find pretty good on Semistall. It is not only a Knock-Off sponge (and a good one at that), but it's also a pretty decent SpDef mon. It can much easiler take on mons like Clawitzer than what defensive mons in RU are known for, as well as being a pretty okay Tangrowth switch-in unless it runs Sludge Bomb. It also holds the offensive pressure of the get-go, and your lack of an offensive grass type move only really makes a difference for your segment of plays; the opponent will still assume it has it. Seeing that you rarely actually use all the moves you have, the dictation of plays is more in your favor. Fear factor has always been a thing. I dunno, try it out, maybe some player that isn't rusty and bad could give input on it and perhaps a better EV spread.

 

[tehy]

Which brings me onto my next point; What does BU Scrafty really setup at? Well, Alomomola (but that thing is setup fodder for everything aside from maybe RP Rhyp), Bronzong I guess (but he doesn't seem to be in a favorable meta), Cofag (same as Bronzong really), Registeel I guess... Short story even shorter, it sets up on passive stallmons that are already considered to be setup fodder for many things. But no stall team in today's meta wouldn't run a fairy, I think (tehy Senpai D.M Meru (if you still play RU idk), any other stall player really, confirm if I'm right here lol). And Malamar sets up on the same mons, just more effectively, aside from maybe Spiritomb and Cofag. So... I really don't see why BU Scrafty should ever be used, aside from the cool factor.

yes, stall needs either a fairy or -maybe- a defensive flying with flying stab / quagsire, just for DD scrafty

Enough about that stuff tho. I tried out a couple different teams in my ladder session today, some balance and some stall (for those that knows me, I prefer slower teams). I used this Virizion on most of the teams as my fun "shitmon" set, as some kind of pseudo stall and balance breaker, and it worked quite well imo. Sometimes the lack of Leaf Blade hurt but eh. The EVs are still not really adjusted well yet, but what can you do from a short time?

Virizion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 120 HP / 136 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Synthesis
- Taunt
- Swords Dance

It's kinda like a slightly more offensive variant of a set I believe EonX posted a long time ago, which I find pretty good on Semistall. It is not only a Knock-Off sponge (and a good one at that), but it's also a pretty decent SpDef mon. It can much easiler take on mons like Clawitzer than what defensive mons in RU are known for, as well as being a pretty okay Tangrowth switch-in unless it runs Sludge Bomb. It also holds the offensive pressure of the get-go, and your lack of an offensive grass type move only really makes a difference for your segment of plays; the opponent will still assume it has it. Seeing that you rarely actually use all the moves you have, the dictation of plays is more in your favor. Fear factor has always been a thing. I dunno, try it out, maybe some player that isn't rusty and bad could give input on it and perhaps a better EV spread.

i like how this man thinks...

idk if it's a set i'd use exactly (what's up with the EVs?) but maybe i'd consider it. it does sort of lose to fairies though, especially togetic. still, i like it

 

[Lord Death Man]

I'd move 44 evs into attack at least, because that's the minimum to OHKO max hp exploud after rocks (and it's not that big of loss of bulk to my knowledge). If you're willing to drop taunt for leaf blade, it sets up on Togetic and wins which is also cool. I was fiddling around with a spread of 200 hp/44 attack/12 spdef/252 speed and it looks really legit on balance and semi-stall, but I find taunt to be a move of questionable worth except for against Jellicent and Spiritomb, who you can't even touch with that set anyway. That set really can't take on Clawitzer super well without Leaf Blade because CC is such a liability, but it's a cool concept for sure (uninvested +2 CC only beats Claw because of LO recoil, which is sad).

Edit: Taunting a Togetic switch in can be nice to stop a defog but so many SD Viriz run Stone Edge now that I think that's only semi-useful at best.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

i like how this man thinks...

idk if it's a set i'd use exactly (what's up with the EVs?) but maybe i'd consider it. it does sort of lose to fairies though, especially togetic. still, i like it

The EVs was mostly done to take on Specs Focus Blasts from Tangrowth better... I was not aware that Sludge Bomb was standard when I made it.
So yeah, as said, the EVs are basically pointless aside from the speed currently.

I'd move 44 evs into attack at least, because that's the minimum to OHKO max hp exploud after rocks (and it's not that big of loss of bulk to my knowledge). If you're willing to drop taunt for leaf blade, it sets up on Togetic and wins which is also cool. I was fiddling around with a spread of 200 hp/44 attack/12 spdef/252 speed and it looks really legit on balance and semi-stall, but I find taunt to be a move of questionable worth except for against Jellicent and Spiritomb, who you can't even touch with that set anyway. That set really can't take on Clawitzer super well without Leaf Blade because CC is such a liability, but it's a cool concept for sure (uninvested +2 CC only beats Claw because of LO recoil, which is sad).

Edit: Taunting a Togetic switch in can be nice to stop a defog but so many SD Viriz run Stone Edge now that I think that's only semi-useful at best.

Indeed, indeed. I'll probably play around and see what I can make of it, because I think it's a pretty decent choice for such teams. (And when I play Semistall, I've always favored faster setup sweepers (SD, NP, that stuff) to the slow, typical ones like Curse Registeel/Mlix, CM Aromatisse and such. I used to run Fletchinder on a team back in the days which I had good success with, even.)

 

[Talpr0ne]

Where are moth and artist dog, I thought they were supposed to be brought back directly to RU.

 

[atomicllamas]

Where are moth and artist dog, I thought they were supposed to be brought back directly to RU.

Smeargle actually moved up to OU briefly, so it will not be dropped directly to RU, the fate of moth is still up in the air, as to whether or not it will be dropped directly to RU, but UU hasn't unbanned either yet, so wait a bit and we'll see.

also this is clearly a simple question, use the appropriate thread please.

 

[atomicllamas]

Hi, I'm 70% sure venomoth is RU now, if someone could test this on showdown and confirm, that would be great !_!

Jk it is RU n_n

To clarify moth is RU because it was RU when UU initially banned it, now that it is unbanned it moves directly into RU.

 

[P is For Penguin]

Venomoth @ Black Sludge
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Substitute
- Sleep Powder


try this set it beats a lot...

 

[Kingler]

Alright, might be a bit premature since it's only been there for a day but I'd like to bring up a Venomoth suspect (someone was going to anyways, this thing is broken as hell). Tinted Lens variants w/ QD are not only powerful af but can also BP to receivers like Exploud, Jolteon, etc. Pretty sure this thing was considered banworthy at whatever points it was in RU, and Sleep Powder + Tinted Lens Bug Buzz + Baton Pass just makes this thing wayyy too good. It also has quite decent bulk, taking stuff like a non-Cb Scrafty Knock Off pretty handily. I haven't faced it too much but from the games i have played against it, it defos seems pretty stupid.

edit- just remembered can't bp speed im dumb lol. I still think Veno is broken though, will update after playing more against it hopefully

 

[atomicllamas]

Alright, might be a bit premature since it's only been there for a day

 

[Natural Talent]

Been testing Moth out, I wouldn't deem it outright broken but I think it is suspect worthy. It has a handful of reliable checks that I can think off,

Hide

Emboar, Escavelier, Jellicent, Togetic ( can cripple it), Steelix (
+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Steelix: 126-150 (35.5 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO , shaky at best), Mega Camerupt, Bronzong, and golbat, Togetic and jellicent auto lose to sub tho

Typing isn't too good and neither is it's bulk. Doesn't get an opportunity to set up on much also. Most mons that can be scarfed outright revenge it. It's only way of getting a set up is sleeping something and then quivering which relies on hitting the sleep powder and getting good sleep turns.

On the other hand it does shit on stall with sub sets effortlessly.

Replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-256174477
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-256199254
Will provide more soon.

Spirit does this look like a ban / suspect post..
I said I think it's suspect worthy not we should suspect it
Mod edit:

"I think it is suspect worthy"

I hope that answers your question

 

[phantom]

Stop talking about suspecting/banning Venomoth when it's only been a day. If I see anymore posts like that until the next week, they will be deleted and subsequently infracted

 

[g]

Does Venomoth even have that much over Vivillon to justify its use as a Quiver Dance sweeper? Tinted lens Bug and Poison Moves kinda pale in comparison to Compoundeyes Hurricane(fly moves r brok)+Giga Drain and Vivillon's Spore-like Sleep Powder is also very very big a lot of the time. Surely Venomoth has more ease against Pokemon such as Amoonguss and Tangrowth but idek if it will even warrant a higher placement in VR

 

[tehy]

Toxic immunity, better special bulk, better typing, not quadweak to rocks, and yes, tinted lens STAB bug buzz (giga drain is also a fine fourth slot btw)

+1 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Steelix: 78-92 (22 - 25.9%)

+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Steelix: 126-150 (35.5 - 42.3%)

also not weak to ice shard

 

[TheTraininator]

Does Venomoth even have that much over Vivillon to justify its use as a Quiver Dance sweeper?

Yes.

+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Steelix: 178-210 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Steelix: 109-129 (30.7 - 36.4%) -- 57.6% chance to 3HKO

Obviously Specially Defensive Steelix isn't bothered by either of these Pokémon, but my point is that Tinted Lens helps a lot more than people think it does. Mono-Flying is a great offensive type, but when a Flying resist does come up, (namely Steel types,) Vivillon struggles. The only way to resist Venomoth's dual STAB is to naturally have a quad resistance to both types, (or an immunity to Poison and quad resistance to Bug.) The only Pokemon who are RU who classify under this list are Mawile, Gastly and Haunter, and Honedge. So that basically means nothing resists Venomoth's dual STABs.

 

[Kingler]

I feel that Veno is better than Vivi because it not only has significant bulk and better typing, but tinted lens bug buzz REALLY helps it break through stuff that vivillon can't (for example, foddering smth then going to megalix easily counters vivillon, while venomoth does a lot more with TL bug buzz and cleanly 2HKOes after one QD; plus, megalix is easy to wear down to the point where that's an OHKO. Idk, I kinda feel dumb for calling broken but it definitely seems better than vivillon (slightly more accurate sleep powder is nice, sure, but the extra power really helps and there really aren't any 4x resists aside from emboar).

edit- also it isnt weak to ice shard or smth so sneasel on offensive teams cant rlly check it

 

[g]

I mean the extra power argument is only really valid against Steelix, Tyrantrum (which is probably 2hkod by +1 hurricane anyways), Bronzong and Meloetta to an extent (i mean Bug Buzz Vivillon is as strong as Veno vs those but lix to be precise lol) while Vivillon is pretty much stronger against everything else. The ability to beat Emboar and Scrafty more easily at +1 (the former is very rekevant as a rkiller) and generally hitting about 20% harder and having a precise sleepp powder against the ability to get off a slightly stronger hit against Steelix against which it still loses and the ability to set up against a few Pokemon a little better (Aromatisse and Alomomola mainly + a few Toxic users) and basically taking Ice Shards is basically what it boils down to and calling Venomoth directly better doesn't rlly make much sense imo

 

[col49]

i'll say that, in a broader scope, venomoth is a pokemon with somewhat less return value than villion in some regards, but i would consider it to be strictly 'better' in that it is easier to splash onto teams; tspikes absorption is always great, lesser sr-weak makes hazard removal less of an absolute necessity (this also means it can make more of its quad grass resist, such that it's an actual immediate deterrent of specsgrowth, rather than just presenting counterplay in exchange for 50%), and ofc base 90 speed > 89 for speed tying melo and what have you (amongst other things, obviously). the other points mentioned in regards to ice neutrality and power implications are also relevant enough, but i find all of these to be enough to make contrast of the two to be hardly relevant. i'm trying to avoid any real judgement on this stuff real quick, so i'll leave things at that, but we shall see as things pan.

 

[Lord Death Man]

Venomoth has some pretty cool synergy with Scrafty (beats a lot of each others checks, can switch in on moves used to revenge the other) but I can't see it doing particularly well outside of that core. I've seen some talk about how Venomoth's checks/counters are mostly considered not good/unviable right now, but in all honestly if Venomoth is broken or even just very good, then they'll rise up - and it's not like Fletch and Emboar are bad, Scarf Durant is (barely) the most used Durant set in higher level ladder play, and Escavalier is honestly pretty decent with Meloetta being so dominant. Veno's real strength is that it sets up on all sorts of mons present on stall teams, with or without substitute, but I imagine better stall players can come up with reliable answers - I know +2 0 Attack Esca OHKOs with Megahorn, so spdef resttalk SD Esca is a rare but reliable-ish answer, for example.

I'm seeing a lot about tinted lens Bug Buzz which has a whole lot going for it, but I can see a Life Orb set with Sludge Bomb + HP Fire being incredibly good two move coverage, especially if mono-attacking Bug Buzz Veno really catches on, because it hits (and, with a LO, KOs at +1) the major stuff that Bug Buzz can't while still having pretty good neutral coverage because of Tinted Lens. It also has a really cool support movepool and next to no way to actually utilize Defog/Toxic Spikes/etc, though Wonder Skin is a really cool ability in concept.

Venomoth seems better than Vivi just because it's typing lets it offer some kind of minor defensive synergy, though a super accurate Sleep Powder is always somewhat welcome. They really have quite a few different checks from each other though, so I wouldn't consider them super comparable mons honestly, even though they share a lot of the same traits (similar speed, similar spatk, similar strategy) - Emboar isn't revenging Vivilion in any situation, whereas Jolt couldn't hope to revenge Venomoth, for example.

People reactions are pretty extreme for it being so early and I sort of want to see replays because some of these claims are hard to believe after actually using Moth/facing Moth, but I'm also using a set that is intentionally trying to do too much to get a feel for how much it can possibly do.

 

[Ajna]

I've been dead for a while, but since coming back I've been doing a ton laddering to get back into the swing of things. As a mostly balance player, I've found Scrafty to be terribly over centralizing for multiple reasons. For one, it's solid bulk and great ability in shed skin allows it to set up on a lot of the common defensive staples of balance such as Amoongus, Jellicent, Qwilfish(can't setup a dd, but wins 1v1), and Mola. Although there are other mons that can do this, Scrafty can also set up on more offensive mons like Flygon, Meloetta, Delphox, Houndoom, Rotom-c, etc. Even with being able to setup on these mons with little to no hp investment(bulky dd spreads although not great, can reliably set up on an insane amount of mons, 2 very important ones being Rhyperior and spdef Mega Steelix), most would not consider Scrafty suspect worthy. But now, add the fact that Scrafty can beat even the likes of Aromatisse, and Togetic to the mix. Scrafty is free to run a roseli berry because of Shed Skin, thus making scrafty a great lure.

If Scrafty knocks off Aromatisse on a predicted switch, Aromatisse can no longer check roseli berry Scrafty while rocks are up. Next time Scrafty comes in, it simply dragon dances on the switch, and then proceeds to click Iron Head. Disregarding the chance to flinch, Scrafty eats up a moonblast, and has a guranteed 2hko with iron head. Oh, and if you're too impatient to catch Aromatisse on the switch with a knock off, just have rocks and a spike up for the 2hko! Scrafty not only lures in fairy's, but this monster can also avoid being revenged if equipped with a chople berry. If your revenge killer for Scrafty is scarf Emboar, scarf Tyrantrum, scarf Durant, or even scarf Hitmonlee, scrafty can tank the hit, proceed to dd again, then sweep.

Edit: Forgot to add this in, but Scrafty also weakens its other checks throughout the game with knock off. Bringing in a scarfed mon, or a mon that needs its item to perform it's role is very risky. Just another reason why this thing is deserving of a suspect.

 

[phantom]

I don't really buy into the Venomoth + Vivillon comparison either quite frankly. Absorbing Toxic Spikes, lack of 4x SR weakness, and less resists between its STABs make it way more dangerous and easier to support. For instance, with Vivillon, you're pretty much required to run a good hazard remover, which is really only Flygon. With Venomoth, you can get away with not running any anti-hazard support. This in turn makes it easier to slap onto a team. You also have to take into account that it also sponges Toxic Spikes, and there hasn't been a good T-Spikes sponge on offense ever since Drapion kinda fell off the map with the rise of Mega lix and other popular mons like Flygon. This isn't even mentioning the fact that most good Flying resists can check Vivillon once you sleep fodder something, whereas Venomoth's checks are way more limited due to its great, neutral coverage. I kinda see Venomoth as easily a top threat (like A rank minimum) after playing 50 games with it, but it has a whole host of issues that make it manageable, including general frailty and difficulty setting up vs offense and/or maintaining a sweep as a result. Having said that, defensive teams have to walk on eggshells when facing it, but it certainly isn't impossible with mixed defense Quagsire checking most variants, alongside other checks such as SpD Steelix, Bronzong, Escavalier, etc.