Metagame NP: RU Stage 10: Your Makeup is Terrible

[atomicllamas]

Alrighty, so now that Kingdra has left the tier, the RU Council has been discussing the state of the meta game, and pretty much everyone agreed that we should probably hold another suspect test. As for what we're suspecting, we decided to go with Reuniclus and Noivern this round. Reuniclus has been controversial for a decent period of time (at various points in XY and ORAS, and especially now that Doublade has left freeing it to use Focus Blast more commonly), and Noivern, while a recent drop, has had an extremely large effect on the way teams are built in the meta game. As always, if you'd like to see some in depth reasoning as to why these Pokemon are being suspected, there are some paragraphs below written about why these Pokemon were chosen, whether or not you agree with the reasoning is up to you, however.

The requirements for this test will be different from the last time, given the extremely large number of voters we have had in previous suspect tests (as many as OU in some cases), the new reqs will be 2800 coil with a B value of 9.0 and the suspect test will end/voting will begin exactly two weeks after the date this post was made. Some sample values are below.

GXE N
100 18
90 25
85 32
80 46
78 58
75 91
72 222

To find out how many matches it'll take for you specifically, take your GXE, and put it into this formula

N=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2800)

Noivern reasoning

Noivern is being suspected because of the huge strain it puts on team building for any offensively oriented team. Due to its nice base speed of 123 alongside its high base power STAB moves, good coverage, and even support options, Noivern can be quite troubling for offensive teams to deal with. The high base power of it's STAB moves (Hurricane and Draco Meteor) alongside Flamethrower coverage make switching into Noivern almost impossible for offensively oriented teams, as, barring SR Piloswine, NP Togetic, and AV Meloetta, few other Pokemon on offensive teams can reliably avoid a 2HKO and threaten Noivern back. Infiltrator is also a great ability for Noivern, allowing it to revenge kill Pokemon even behind a sub, such as Sub SD Cobalion, or Sub Durant. On top of this, Noivern is still able to function well against defensive teams, as it has access to Taunt, Superfang, and Infiltrator Switcheroo (with choice specs), which can screw over defensive Pokemon thinking that they can comfortably wall Noivern. Roost is also useful against teams that attempt to deal with Noivern too passively, as it can simply roost off the minor damage and threaten the opponents team later. For all of these reasons, Noivern has been deemed worthy of a suspect test in RU.

Reuniclus Reasoning

While Reuniclus may seem like a strange choice to suspect as it has been in the meta since its inception, Reuniclus has actually been brought up at several different points throughout XY and ORAS RU as a potential suspect, but the timing was never right as tier shifts or some other threat popping up always got in the way. The set that has, at times, been worthy of a suspect test is the Calm Mind set, which is extremely profficient at dismantling defensive teams once the dedicated counter to reuniclus has been removed or weakened (and sometimes even without this). Often times the counters that defensive teams carry to deal with Reuniclus, such as Drapion and Skuntank, are easily taken care of by Dugtrio. With Doublade's exit from the tier, Reuniclus doesn't really need to run Shadow Ball anymore, it can run Focus Blast to deal with Dark-types like Houndoom and the aforementioned Drapion and Skuntank, or if you are concerned with Spiritomb, Reuniclus can easily get away with running Signal Beam, which hits Spiritomb and the other Dark-types neutrally, at the small cost of having trouble with Steel-types that can also set up. Magic Gaurd is what makes Reuniclus so potent, as it cannot be dealt with by status, unlike other set up sweepers, it also makes it extremely resiliant, as it doesn't take damage from hazards. Reuniclus still serves as a good win condition against offensively oriented teams, as barring strong Dark-type Physical attackers (and Houndoom), and a select few very powerful wall breakers, Reuniclus becomes basically unpenetrable after a few calm mind boosts. OTR is also an option that can take advantage of the fact that Reuniclus isn't often thought of as hitting hard right off the bat, but OTR flips speed on its head and allows Reuniclus to easily clean faster teams, given its extremely high Special Attack and recoil-less Life Orb boost. Because of the recent tier shifts, as well as its long standing position as one of the best and threatening bulky set up sweepers in the tier, Reuniclus has been deemed worthy of a suspect test.

Noivern Sample Sets

Noivern @ Life Orb
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Air Slash / Hurricane
- Flamethrower
- Taunt / Roost

Noivern @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Draco Meteor
- U-turn / Switcheroo
- Hurricane / Air Slash

Reuniclus Sample Sets

Reuniclus @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Recover
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast / Signal Beam / Acid Armor / Thunder Wave

Reuniclus @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast

The NP song is Your Makeup is Terrible, there is no reason for it but shoutout to hollywood cause (makeup)
-llamas

Tagging The Immortal for a ladder please :]

 

[tehy]

Noivern seems like a fairly straightforward suspect; it rips through offense and of course has a bit left in the tank for stall / balance. Not sure if it's outright broken, but it seems quite powerful from what I've seen so far...however, it really struggles with the lack of accuracy on Hurricane and Draco Meteor's SpA drop (and, i guess, dragon pulse and air slash's general weak-ness).

Reuniclus...i don't know, man, it has a lot of soft checks and most importantly has hard stops, though they are few. Stall should really carry a hard stop to clus, but that's...well, CM tomber, which I run currently so get rekt y'all. CurseSire does okay now that it's Focus Blast and not Shadow Ball (curse you SpD drops); that said, Restalk Escav is somewhat shaky and SpD drap even moreso, and that's all. Plus, it really stops the momentum of a lot of stall mons; specifically alomomola can usually manage to either burn or toxic any mon on the opposing team, creating momentum, but clus doesn't care and essentially turns the game into a war between your clus stop and the rest of the team. god forbid you use cursesire...you better have a solid hazards game or you will never kill the rest of the opposing team. Of course, the ladder is unwilling to simply go into reuniclus constantly against defensive mons that can't touch it despite the excellence of this strategy, because...idk, lazy unthinking responses that also make the game longer are not most people's bag. It's also o.k. against offense, where it can guarantee a kill at worst since it's so hard to OHKO, and the strong physical breakers that can punch through it don't want to switch in (emboar and tyrantrum, mostly, as well as Dark-types and durant), all of which means you can pick off physical stuff and sweep through special stuff. still, offense has offensive pressure, escavalier, and trick / switcheroo, so it's more against balance styles, which are forced into carrying certain stuff and might still get fucked anyhow.

tl;dr: i love my CM / Wisp / Snarl / Rest spiritomb to death but I don't think everyone is on board with that

 

[Kingler]

Okay so I'll go first! I'll say first that I severely dislike the state of RU atm which is basically go fully defensive/attack stuff with Noivern and sac/have a Cobalion counter.

Won't make a paragraph on Noivern yet.

Reuniclus is pretty damn broken. When you see shit it sets up on, you can take literally any mon that doesn't have a great offensive presence or isn't a Dark-type; Alomomola, Aromatisse, even NOIVERN if you are at full health (or recover on the obvious draco lol), Dugtrio, Scarf Emboar (you threaten it out and it barely does 50%), Seismitoad, Jolteon (I mean you can't set up on Spex locked into Shadow Ball or Signal Beam but literally anything else is fair game and at +1 Jolteon is forced out). This is not to mention Reuniclus's INCREDIBLE BULK that makes it almost impossible to KO after a boost unless you use stuff like Durant or CB Esca. Most Reun switch out of stuff like Sneasel in order to sweep late-game, but Life Orb Sneasel barely does 50% to a Knocked Off Reuniclus and Focus Blast is a clean OHKO no questions asked. I mean, Mega Glalie's Returns don't 2HKO this thing lol. I'd advocate to anyone reading this to at least use Reuniclus or ladder a bunch so you've faced Reun sufficiently to make a logical decision. Idk if i'll ladder for this but Reun is a definite ban in my eyes.

oh I seem to have missed the legendary spiritomb but pursuit can't do jack so w/e

edit- also it has magic guard so it doesn't give a shit about spikes which is really fuckin nice and it cant be statused but everyone knows that already so

 

[GoodGoing]

I am all about viability and here are some examples.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ru-viability-ranking-thread-special-dragon-edition.3538036/
Only-Reuniclus Version: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ru-viability-ranking-oras-edition.3523627/

I know that's not many sources, and I have never, EVER, played RU. But, with that aside, here are my opinions.

Noivern was dropped from the UU by usage, and was the least used one out of the 4 dropped mind you. I found this surprising because I thought Noivern was a good UU pokemon with infiltrator and a strong, speedy special attack that counters sub spammers. Reminder: I only fiddled with these two in random battle. Noivern just seems like a freaking nightmare for RU though, and too much of one at that. This might be a terrible comparison, but this reminds me of if you tried to shove Heliolisk into the RU. I say ban Noivern. I only played Reuniclus competitively once, and it was smashed by something in the random battle I can't remember. But I looked at the stats for Reuniclus and realized that it can be a complete wall ( To make up for speed, and not to mention its incredible ability, Magic Guard. No more toxic or burn.) and stallbreaker if built and used correctly. Now that Doublade is gone, it is a huge threat to the RU and sort of unhealthy in the metagame, although not used as much as Doublade once was or Mega-Steelix. To be blunt, this test with Reuniclus reminds me of the Landorus-I suspect test with how uncommon each are played and how powerful each are. But with my bad experience with Reuniclus, I am on the fence with Reuniclus. Even though it's sister, Gothitelle, is better for its ability and slightly better bulk, Reuniclus is still a challenge for any team without a counter for this mon. Gun to my head, ban Reuniclus.

 

[g]

after this suspect test ends we are leaving cobalion to a quick ban worthy level as those two are pretty much the only semi reliable answers to it and are clear cut both broken. Reuniclus has like 3 checks in the tier that hate focus blast and one reliable counter in spiritomb. Noivern has like no defenaive checks between specs and taunt roost

 

[The Immortal]

Ladder is up.

 

[fran17]

I'm really happy to see this suspect because Reuni power was becoming really high. He's a pain for almost every playstyle thanks to his great bulk and high power. The CM set can setup on many relevant threath in the tier and the LO set has like 2/3 switchin that can easily be worn down with residual damage or be trapped by Dugtrio. Also unlike other mon in the tier he doesn't suffer entry hazards so it's harder to bring him down, and Recover gives him enough staying power to be usefull during all the match. RU probably will be a better tier without Reuniclus so I'm going to vote ban.

On Noivern I'm not really sure because even if it has a great movepool and an high base speed his two main stab give him hard time (Hurricane unreliable precision and Draco Meteor drops) and Dragon Pulse/Air Slash lacks of power. At the moment I'm not really sure that he should go, but after playing a bit on he ladder I might change my opinion.

 

[aVocado]

On Noivern I'm not really sure because even if it has a great movepool and an high base speed his two main stab give him hard time (Hurricane unreliable precision and Draco Meteor drops) and Dragon Pulse/Air Slash lacks of power. At the moment I'm not really sure that he should go, but after playing a bit on he ladder I might change my opinion.

Think of Noivern as Pidgeot but with actual coverage, better typing, and better STABs in return of Hurricane being able to miss, however that's traded for its ability Infiltrator. The speed, power, and infiltrator in addition to having room to run Roost and Life Orb (which Pidgeot couldn't run) make it very threatening for offensive teams and defensive alike; Draco Meteor hurts anything that doesn't resist it, and its access to Flamethrower (and/or to an extent Focus Blast) is incredible because it allows it to not let Steel-types come in for free. It kinda suffers from 4MSS in the fact that it can't run DM/Flamethrower/Hurricane/Roost/Dragon Pulse all at once, but if you're willing to sacrifice a consistent STAB for a more unreliable but powerful STAB (Hurricane over Dragon Pulse), then it's golden, and the 4MSS issue isn't exactly a big one anyway. Hurricane wouldn't give Fairies a free switch-in.

Infiltrator also allows it to revenge the likes of Cobalion and other Substitute users, can't think of many at the moment tbh. It kinda lacks reliable counters and the ones that it can't plough through (specially defensive fairies and jellicent are some that come to mind) can actually easily be covered by another teammate. All of those factors together, and Noivern is an extremely powerful threat. I've set my mind on it a while ago.

I was also convinced by Reuniclus getting a suspect even before the tier shifts in ORAS, and after the tier shifts it just became more obvious. There's barely any competition now (only one is Slowking and perhaps Uxie) as a Calm Mind user and it's obviously the best thanks to good overall (and better typing than Slowking) bulk and Magic Guard.

 

[noobcubed]

Well I used Doublade on like every RU team before the last tier shift to deal with Reuniclus. Now that that's gone... urgh well I haven't played the tier in a while anyway since Kingdra was so ridiculous and I haven't got back into it since its ban.

The other thing about Reuniclus is that people haven't even mentioned its offensive Trick Room set yet. While not as overwhelming as the Calm Mind set, Trick Room can be pretty brutal too, and has a better match-up versus offense whereas Calm Mind is better at breaking stall and balance. Overall I would say it is broken in the sense that it warps the metagame around it quite a bit.

Can't really make much of a comment on Noivern since I haven't played enough since the last tier shift.

 

[The Leprechaun]

after this suspect test ends we are leaving cobalion to a quick ban worthy level as those two are pretty much the only semi reliable answers to it and are clear cut both broken. Reuniclus has like 3 checks in the tier that hate focus blast and one reliable counter in spiritomb. Noivern has like no defenaive checks between specs and taunt roost

This is a bit of an exaggeration. As far as offensive checks go, there are still a fair few, and if noivern gets banned, some of the offesive checks actually get a lot better. With noivern around, mons like scarf emboar, durant, dugtrio, delphox and virizion have become far less reliable, which is one of the factors that has made cobalion so successful in this current meta. For example, before noivern dropped, emboar was the 5th most used mon in the tier and scarf was by far the most used item. If it were to go then emboar would be more popular again and cobalion would have regained its best offensive check. It may even be the case that other scarf fighting types become much more popular. If they both leave then the tier loses its best checks to scarf medicham and hitmonlee. Spamming scarf earthquake will be much more safe as well.

As far as defensive checks go, Reuinclus isn't even in the top 5. jellicent, seismitoad, cofagrigus, physdef drudd and physdef bronzong all do well against it and while it may be true that their effectivesness has been diminished somewhat by the introduction of scrafty, this is also true of reuniclus - the point being that not much will change it terms of preparing for it.

What i'm trying to say here is that even though cobalion may get better if these mons get banned, it's an oversimplification and mostly theorymon to say that it would be quick ban worthy.


Anyway, most of that is speculation and is not important. For the pressing matters of the current suspects, I think it should be obvious that they both have to go.

Reuniclus is the single most restrictive mon in the tier. I remember 49 noting at one point in the cress meta that if a team doesn't have a psychic check, it's a bad team - things haven't changed. If you lack a mon that can consistently beat cm reuniclus 1v1, then you can auto-lose at team preview. Strangely, with the tier shift, reuniclus actually got indirectly better. While it's true that it gained a check in scrafty, the meta also shifted to make all other checks less effective. Drapion and houndoom went from being two of the best mons in the tier, to being very difficult to use thanks to the increased popularity in cobalion, noivern, scrafty and flygon. In addition, with doublade leaving the tier, focus blast has become a far more viable option, rendering the dark and steel checks much less reliable.
The tier has also seen a shift from the offensive/ bulky offensive meta to one which favours balance a lot more. This is characterised by mons which are set-up fodder for reun - spdef mola, bronzong, aromatisse, togetic and several others have all gained popularity because of their ability to check the drops.
While it's certainly not true that reuniclus is unbeatable and to me it's only borderline broken, but the fact that you are forced to run ineffective attackers on every single team regardless of structure, makes it an extremely overcentralising force and one which is far too unhealthy for the meta to stay.

Noivern is much simpler. Its speed tier allows it to beat all but two non boosted mon and its combination of very high base power stab moves (hurricane and draco) with fantastic coverage and utility makes it extremely difficult to check. Its good bulk and defensive typing make it difficult to revenge kill with scarfed mons and its ability to roost off residual damage makes it a pain to face for any defensive mon. It's basically pidgeot but with more options - it has to go.

llamas you've outdone yourself with disgusting song choices :]

 

[phantom]

As far as defensive checks go, Reuinclus isn't even in the top 5. jellicent, seismitoad, cofagrigus, physdef drudd and physdef bronzong all do well against it and while it may be true that their effectivesness has been diminished somewhat by the introduction of scrafty, this is also true of reuniclus - the point being that not much will change it terms of preparing for it.

Not to shift the direction of the discussion, but I feel the need to address this because it isn't even remotely true. Half of those are shaky checks at best. Jellicent and Cofagrigus are both Pursuit bait (although Jellicent has ways to circumnavigate this), and Cofagrigus is forced into a series of 50/50s vs substitute variants anyways. Physically Defensive Druddigon is easily worn down due to its lack of recovery, even passive recovery if it chooses to opt for Rocky Helmet, Seismitoad falls under the same boat except it can't punish Cobalion from clicking CC as it swaps in, and physically defensive Bronzong loses if it tries to switch in as Cobalion is setting up, and of all things, is setup bait to Shuca Berry variants. Really, the only reliable checks to Cobalion outside of the suspects that aren't super exploitable in some way (be it Pursuit bait or no form on non-passive recovery) or gimmicky are Jellicent and maybe Qwilfish (you can EV Cobalion's Substitute to withstand its Scald). Sure you can argue that it can be revenge-killed, but that doesn't decrease its potency or make it any less powerful. Also keep in mind that Shuca Berry is one of the better items on Cobalion right now, so not even Dugtrio or Scarf Flygon are reliable revenge killers.

 

[The Leprechaun]

Not to shift the direction of the discussion, but I feel the need to address this because it isn't even remotely true. Half of those are shaky checks at best. Jellicent and Cofagrigus are both Pursuit bait (although Jellicent has ways to circumnavigate this), and Cofagrigus is forced into a series of 50/50s vs substitute variants anyways. Physically Defensive Druddigon is easily worn down due to its lack of recovery, even passive recovery if it chooses to opt for Rocky Helmet, Seismitoad falls under the same boat except it can't punish Cobalion from clicking CC as it swaps in, and physically defensive Bronzong loses if it tries to switch in as Cobalion is setting up, and of all things, is setup bait to Shuca Berry variants. Really, the only reliable checks to Cobalion outside of the suspects that aren't super exploitable in some way (be it Pursuit bait or no form on non-passive recovery) or gimmicky are Jellicent and maybe Qwilfish (you can EV Cobalion's Substitute to withstand its Scald). Sure you can argue that it can be revenge-killed, but that doesn't decrease its potency or make it any less powerful. Also keep in mind that Shuca Berry is one of the better items on Cobalion right now, so not even Dugtrio or Scarf Flygon are reliable revenge killers.

Yeah you make good points and i agree that the checks are shaky, but the point i was trying to make wasn't that it has tons of flawless checks. I was just responding to galbia's claim that reuniclus is its best defensive check and it leaving would make cobalion beyond broken. Reuniclus falls into the pursuit bait category and if it switches into cobalion setting up it loses unless it has focus blast and even then it's unlikely to win.

4 SpA Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 274-324 (84.8 - 100.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 177-208 (41.7 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The chance of reuniclus actually winning this matchup is about 40% when considering flinches and misses.

I wasn't suggesting at all that it's easily checked, I completely agree with you that it isn't.

 

[EonX]

Alright, I guess I'll give my thoughts on the suspects:

Reuniclus: Most have already drilled this one into the ground, but I feel this has been a long time coming. The CM set just breaks stall in half, bones balance pretty reliably, and only needs a single boost to be hard on offense most times (p. easy considering its initial bulk and ability to tank most scarf mons locked into the improper move) The fact that it has one set that is capable of beating all playstyles under the right conditions is kind of crazy. Knock Off isn't quite as prominent as it used to be and Pursuit is a bit more risky with the Fighting spam in the tier (albeit perfectly viable to help the Fighting spam) and Magic Guard + Recover just accentuates Reuniclus's effectiveness. This isn't even factoring in OTR Reuniclus, which just turns the table on offensive teams at a moments notice and still does p. well vs. most balance teams. It's great in dedicated TR teams or as just a standalone sweeper. Reuniclus has the stats, movepool, and ability to perform well against all playstyles to make it quite difficult to prepare for imo.

Noivern: Before I get into this, I'm p. sure most Mega Pidgeot had the room to run Roost Arikado. (Hurricane, Heat Wave, U-turn, Roost was the main set iirc) That being said, it's only a minor detail considering you're going to be blasting stuff with Draco or Hurricane most of the time anyway. The Speed tier is super annoying considering very few Pokemon can outspeed it without the help of a Scarf (which makes most predictable as to which move they're going to use) Even Accelgor, one of the Pokemon that naturally outspeeds it, needs HP Ice in order to safely come in for a revenge kill. Again, it's obvious what move is coming, thus making it easy to defend against. Basically, the threat of Noivern makes it very easy to predict around the opponent. Just to use one example of a Scarfer, let's say Rotom-C comes in. Ok, it's pretty easy to predict that the Rotom-C is Scarf and is likely going to use Volt Switch / T-Bolt since it would get bodied by the incoming Draco / Hurricane / Flamethrower otherwise. The problem is, you have to be predictable against Noivern if you're using a balance or offensive team. Its coverage and power is too good for you to try to be fancy with your check to it. As for stall teams, Taunt is a thing on Noivern, so even they aren't completely safe albeit Vern has a p. hard time fitting Taunt into its moveset. Not to mention the fact Noivern can be much more aggressive when it comes to predicting switches vs. stall teams due to its great coverage. It has Speed, power, coverage, threat level to make offense really predictable against it, ability to bone balance once they lose their faster check to it, and can even run Taunt to perform better vs. stall if it's necessary.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Can somebody enlighten me how different noivern is from exploud? I don't play RU much, not going to lie.. but if anything, noivern doesn't seem as stupid to click and spam one move and 2HKO something. Even boomburst bypasses substitute, and then you have noivern with infiltrator. Neither have good reliable switch ins (although a few special walls can be brought into noivern, while exploud has the coverage and ability to hit everything neutral). Noivern's 2x stealth rock weakness also makes it able to be wore down far easier than exploud.. not to mention noivern's two best STABs carry that risk to them (comparing noivern to the tornadus-T of OU except no bulk)

Again, I don't play RU enough to be given a stance and declare it broken, or seen any overcentralization.. but I'd like to understand why there is much of a difference here.

 

[EonX]

Can somebody enlighten me how different noivern is from exploud? I don't play RU much, not going to lie.. but if anything, noivern doesn't seem as stupid to click and spam one move and 2HKO something. Even boomburst bypasses substitute, and then you have noivern with infiltrator. Neither have good reliable switch ins (although a few special walls can be brought into noivern, while exploud has the coverage and ability to hit everything neutral). Noivern's 2x stealth rock weakness also makes it able to be wore down far easier than exploud.. not to mention noivern's two best STABs carry that risk to them (comparing noivern to the tornadus-T of RU except no bulk)

Again, I don't play RU enough to be given a stance and declare it broken, or seen any overcentralization.. but I'd like to understand why there is much of a different here.

For the future, you can use the SQSA thread for something like this, but Noivern has the power of Exploud, but with the Speed to decimate a lot of offensive mons, something Exploud simply isn't capable of doing. There's also the fact that Noivern can also bring some defensive synergy to the table with resistances to Fighting, Fire, Water, Grass (4x) and a Ground immunity, whereas Exploud is only immune to Ghost and has no recovery move.

 

[Tom Bus]

I haven't played much RU lately, but Reuniclus does stand out as something worthy of a suspect test. I've innovated calm mind + knock off Reuniclus as a way to knock off leftovers and help to wear down its dark type checks without using Dugtrio to trap them (eg. if using Reuniclus on a more defensive team). Noivern seems similar to mega Pidgeot, having the capacity to outspeed and OHKO or 2HKO most of the tier, or cripple with trick the pokemon that are capable of taking two hits. Both seem banworthy to me.

 

[Snowy]

Haven't been the most involved with the RU community, but I have been keeping up to date through IRC chats and general browsing of the forum. With this said, I think I have a pretty good idea of how I think Pokemon work in the meta and have collected some thoughts on whether or not I believe they should stay in RU.

I'll begin with Noivern, as it is the Pokemon I am most confident to say that it should be Ban out of the two. Unmatched speed, insanely good coverage, solid offensive pressure and access to taunt and roost, are just some of the key reasons why this thing is super uncompetitive in the tier and just plane unhealthy. To begin with, not a lot can switch into any of it coverage moves without out being 2hko'd and those that can are usually passive and can be beaten with the use of taunt (roost can also be used in addition to taunt as it helps with this). This really just means that your forced to sack a Pokemon, in order to safely bring in your scarf users or a check that can live one hit, which just seems absurdly disadvantageous.

Moving on to Reuniclus. This is a Pokemon I have mixed feelings about and can not give a defiant answer on what I think should happen with it. Yes it poses a great threat as a CM cleaner and general tank, as it can set up on a lot of the tier and eat a lot of hits, but it really holds no initial threat or presence without any boosts. It also seems rather predictable, as it only has a few viable sets, meaning that you can prepare for it a lot easy, than say that of Noivern. I will more than likely have to read more postings on this Pokemon and also get a feel for a solid opinion while getting reqs.

In conclusion, I believe that Noivern should be Ban, as it is a truly uncompetitive force to be reckoned with in the tier and that my opinion on the decision with Reuniclus will need some moulding through playing the ladder and reading your guys thoughts.

 

[quicklite]

Can somebody enlighten me how different noivern is from exploud? I don't play RU much, not going to lie.. but if anything, noivern doesn't seem as stupid to click and spam one move and 2HKO something. Even boomburst bypasses substitute, and then you have noivern with infiltrator. Neither have good reliable switch ins (although a few special walls can be brought into noivern, while exploud has the coverage and ability to hit everything neutral). Noivern's 2x stealth rock weakness also makes it able to be wore down far easier than exploud.. not to mention noivern's two best STABs carry that risk to them (comparing noivern to the tornadus-T of OU except no bulk)

Again, I don't play RU enough to be given a stance and declare it broken, or seen any overcentralization.. but I'd like to understand why there is much of a difference here.

Well, to start with the most obvious statement, exploud has 68 speed...noivern has 123. Both can hit hard enough to land a dent on stall, but exploud's crappy speed, meh bulk, and lack of priority means that the majority of the offensive meta can outspeed and kill it. Exploud can try to remedy this with a scarf, but then loses a lot of its ability to wallbreak, which is a lethal sacrifice to make for a wallbreaker.

Noivern, on the other hand, is only really outsped and ohkoed by scarf mons, specs jolteon with stealth rock up (alternatively, jolt can run hp ice for a clean ohko, but the majority of RU's ground types are actually hit by hp ice neutrally due to secondary typings, so I find that hp ice is only really optimal against noivern), and a mega glalie's ice shard. Everything else in the tier is completely unable to revenge kill the thing, and even some walls will struggle to come in on a specs draco/hurricane/flamethrower. Not to mention that dragon/flying typing allows switches a lot more than a plain normal typing.

You're right in that when a noivern or an exploud is able to get a move off, there are few very mons that can switch in without taking serious damage. But exploud not only finds it harder to safely come in, but is then left with a pretty terrible speed tier that only lets it outspeed walls. Noivern can come in on a lot more, can in most cases easily outspeed whatever is on the field, and then can hit back with almost as much power (as much power if we're just comparing the initial draco hit to boomburst, as the 10 BP difference is remedied by noivern's slightly higher special attack).

And as for whether it's worthy a ban (and yes I know I'm not voting, but I'm just giving my two cents)...I'm on the fence, but I'm definitely leaning towards yes. A few people I've talked to that there are mons that can safely switch into noivern, and I myself have pointed out that some mons can, on an even battlefield, trump it. But the latter can't switch into noivern without dying, and the former is either unable to substantially hurt noivern in retaliation, or are simply nuked by noivern's solid coverage moves (*cough*flamethrower*cough*). A team can be designed to beat noivern with minimal casualties, but I find that when using a team that has not been built with noivern in mind (or a team whose noivern checks are dead), noivern can pretty reliably switch in, always secure a kill, and then switch out. Whether this causes overcentralization...well, I'm not entirely sure, but hey, not the one voting! :P

 

[tehy]

To help out my boi leprechaun, here's some other defensive stops:

Torterra:

+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torterra: 211-250 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torterra: 142-168 (36 - 42.6%) --

0 Atk Soft Sand Torterra Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Cobalion: 336-396 (104 - 122.6%)

i've found Soft Sand to be the best way to give Terra the bulk it needs to survive hits, and the power it needs to KO back. Torterra's also good against Tyrantrum, Drapion, M-lix, and Rhyperior, it's got Synthesis, Stealth Rock, and most importantly SD, making it a fairly good stallbreaker who also fills a solid defensive role

Quagsire:

do you need calcs ?

Defensive Tomb

+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 139-165 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Above calc assumes you switched in on SD and got that lefties round, meaning you can even cripple Lum Cobalion. Good fucking luck to non-Lum, that Sub won't protect you. Foul Play does a respectable amount of damage at high boost levels, so Cobalion can't just SD to max with no punishment.

+4 0 Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cobalion: 144-171 (44.5 - 52.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO

Weezing:

+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 129-153 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

0 SpA Weezing Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 148-176 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO

Tangrowth:

+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 187-222 (46.4 - 55%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 126-148 (31.2 - 36.7%) -- 75.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 246-290 (76.1 - 89.7%) (calc gave me this? i'll roll with it)

really, Tangrowth just needs to break the Sub and it can leech seed, wear away at Cobal while forcing it to CC, which lets Hp fire do shit-tons back.

despite this, I do feel cobalion has GOOD ways of getting past all its checks and counters (note the distinction of GOOD here, this is not Outrage Lando-I or something), and only Quagsire can really claim to not care at all. Magnet Rise Cobalion is something I've seen on these forums, and while i've never seen it on ladder, it seems incredibly dangerous, circumVENTing many of its natural counters. I don't agree that Jellicent is massive pursuit bait, but it's worth noting that the possible presence of Pursuit really forces it into running Scald instead of the otherwise godly Hex.

Overall I could see Cobalion going afterwards...don't know if it's too late or w / e, but can't we just suspect him as well?

 

[termi]

Can somebody enlighten me how different noivern is from exploud? I don't play RU much, not going to lie.. but if anything, noivern doesn't seem as stupid to click and spam one move and 2HKO something. Even boomburst bypasses substitute, and then you have noivern with infiltrator. Neither have good reliable switch ins (although a few special walls can be brought into noivern, while exploud has the coverage and ability to hit everything neutral). Noivern's 2x stealth rock weakness also makes it able to be wore down far easier than exploud.. not to mention noivern's two best STABs carry that risk to them (comparing noivern to the tornadus-T of OU except no bulk)

Again, I don't play RU enough to be given a stance and declare it broken, or seen any overcentralization.. but I'd like to understand why there is much of a difference here.

Please don't do this.

I have given my initial thoughts on Reuniclus in the previous np thread (tl;dr version of it: reuniclus op plz nerf). As for Noivern: it probably needs to go. Its base 97 SpA is redeemed by high-powered STABs with very fewn switchins, all of which are bopped by Fire coverage anyway. Anything bulky enough to reliably take two hits still has to fear that Noivern just U-Turns out to a counter or Tricks it Specs in order to cripple it (considering the only things that can take two hits from Noivern are walls that don't appreciate being choice locked at all), and offensive teams are either forced to run one of the few momentum-killing semi-reliable answers to Noivern, or else they have to make perfect predictions every time Noivern is inside or they straight up lose a mon. The most reliable way of getting rid of Noivern for offense is to just try to revenge kill it, something that isn't even easy to do considering there aren't many scarfers that can OHKO Noivern and there are basically two viable Pokemon in RU with a higher speed tier than Noivern. Noivern simply has no real downsides bar the fact that it misses out on a KO or two, but this is easily remedied, and it misses a lot, but this has never been an argument to keep something in a tier (see: Moltres) and it isn't an argument now.

Noivern threatens any playstyle, can function as a wallbreaker and a revenge killer in one, is able to grab momentum, is suprisingly versatile, has little, if any, definable counters and basically is an unhealthy force in the metagame. I don't see my opinion changing on this anytime soon

Also, can we keep Cobalion and whether or not it will be broken if/when the current suspects get banned out of the discussion? That's pure theorymon and not relevant atm.

 

[aVocado]

Noivern: Before I get into this, I'm p. sure most Mega Pidgeot had the room to run Roost Arikado.

Poor wording, I was saying that it couldn't run LO

 

[atomicllamas]

Also, can we keep Cobalion and whether or not it will be broken if/when the current suspects get banned out of the discussion? That's pure theorymon and not relevant atm.

Oml, so much this, if Cobalion becomes a problem after this suspect test, we can address it afterwards. If people continue to post theorymonning about a potential future meta game if the suspects get banned they will be deleted and if I'm feeling particularly salty, infracted, thank you. In the mean time lets focus on the suspects at hand (Ty cute user Robert Alfons n_n).

 

[zdrup15]

Oml, so much this, if Cobalion becomes a problem after this suspect test, we can address it afterwards. If people continue to post theorymonning about a potential future meta game if the suspects get banned they will be deleted and if I'm feeling particularly salty, infracted, thank you. In the mean time lets focus on the suspects at hand (Ty cute user Robert Alfons n_n).

I had one opinion about cobalion but I waited till I played a few games on the ladder to post. Cobalion is now more ridiculous than noivern or reuniclus. It's winning tons of games even though people are fully aware of it and think they are prepared. There are very few ways to deal with it and, even though it has 3 obvious moves, the filler (sub, magnet rise and taunt are the most common) and the item (lefties but also shuca, black belt and life orb but this one is not as good imo) give it enough versatility to screw you over if you guess it wrong. Right now the ladder is cobalion + cobalion counter (top of the ladder is all running jellicent except me now) + fillers. This doesn't mean reuniclus and noivern aren't broken, I actually think the former is (still unsure about noivern), it just means that cobalion has a lot more impact.

 

[JoshHarmony]

Oml, so much this, if Cobalion becomes a problem after this suspect test, we can address it afterwards. If people continue to post theorymonning about a potential future meta game if the suspects get banned they will be deleted and if I'm feeling particularly salty, infracted, thank you. In the mean time lets focus on the suspects at hand (Ty cute user Robert Alfons n_n).

I get what you're saying but that is somewhat relevant to be honest. When suspecting a single mon such as Lando in OU, it changes the meta by leaps and bounds. Let alone two mons. We have to think long term about these suspects. Okay, so afterwards Cobalion is realistically a problem and if Coba was to get banned what would the meta look like afterwards? What mons would then take the reigns? Would those mons be too strong? We can't just be suspecting the two mons, we're practically suspecting the meta as a whole to determine if it's healthy or not.

That being said, fuck Noivern and Reuniclus. BAN THEM

Edit: Can we just immediately throw Coba in the suspect? :D

 

[atomicllamas]

I had one opinion about cobalion but I waited till I played a few games on the ladder to post. Cobalion is now more ridiculous than noivern or reuniclus. It's winning tons of games even though people are fully aware of it and think they are prepared. There are very few ways to deal with it and, even though it has 3 obvious moves, the filler (sub, magnet rise and taunt are the most common) and the item (lefties but also shuca, black belt and life orb but this one is not as good imo) give it enough versatility to screw you over if you guess it wrong. Right now the ladder is cobalion + cobalion counter (top of the ladder is all running jellicent except me now) + fillers. This doesn't mean reuniclus and noivern aren't broken, I actually think the former is (still unsure about noivern), it just means that cobalion has a lot more impact.

That's fine, I have no problem with people talking about Cobalion in the current meta game (this is the np after all) I would just like to avoid theorymonning about future meta games in this thread, as it is pretty irrelevant to the suspect test (and meta game) at hand.