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np: RU Stage 11 - Bark at the Moon

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Oglemi, Oct 20, 2012.

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  1. The Goddamn Batman

    The Goddamn Batman

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    This is the first round of RU I've played since Cresselia was banned for the first time, so maybe I don't have as much perspective on the subject as the rest of you do. However, I'm going to go ahead and share my thoughts on the topic. I am of the opinion that Cresselia isn't a centralizing force in the metagame. There are plenty of Pokemon that can deliver serious damage to Cresselia (Escavalier, Druddigon, Spiritomb, Drapion, etc.), and almost every team carries one of these threats. Of course, if you fail to pack something that can deal with Cresselia, you arent going to be able to stop Cosmic Power Sigilyph either. So its not like Cresselia is forcing every team to carry that one Pokemon just to stop Cresselia and vice-versa. I've found that the best way to deal with Cresselia is by inflicting it with Toxic and setting up on it. Cresselia cant do much to stop SD Drapion, CP Sigilyph, and others from boosting up and sweeping through its team. Taunt is another option that shuts every variant of Cresselia down. So is it difficult to deal with certain variants of Cresselia? Of course, but not any more difficult than dealing with CP Sigilyph, who we have already deemed unbroken. I like Cresselia's presence in the tier, and I hope we keep it in RU for future rounds.

    Also, I have found Durant to be completely non-existant on PS (someone please correct me if Durant is not supposed to be used on PS RU!). Durant is somewhat lost in the offensive nature of the meta, being outsped by Sceptile, Manectric, Galvantula, Archeops, etc. Its base speed really hurts it, and with its lackluster coverage and vulnerability to priority, I would not consider Durant for any type of team except Hyper Offense. Just my thoughts on the topic, please let me know what you guys think!
  2. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
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    I would like to share my two cents :toast:

    [​IMG]

    For Cresselia, it has an interesting effect on the metagame, some good, some bad. When I see how Cresselia is handled, it reminds of how Dragon-types are handled in OU; have a Steel-type to absorb a STAB Dragon attack and you should be fine (a broad generality). In this case, the way to 'handle' Cresselia is to have a Dark-type, Escavalier, or something that can hit it super effectively. This is important because of Cresselia's immense bulk, which means that she can easily shrug off hits that aren't SE or STABed, or both. Now how many Pokemon can claim they have a SE STAB attack on Cresseila? Dark-, Bug-, and Ghost-types can claim this. Only 12 Pokemon can claim this, based on only typing, and in RU. This 'method' of handling Cresselia promotes creativity as NU adds much more Pokemon with the aforementioned trait to deal with her, which adds much more flavor to the metagame.

    Cresselia, herself, adds much more creativity in the tier, as she can set up weather, screens, gravity, trick room, and general support. Such magnitude of options means that all the different archetypes are viable, whereas before these kinds of teams had much less options. Weather (Rain, Sun) have a bulky inducer similar to Uxie that can set up weather multiple times. Gravity and Trick Room play-styles have a bulky Pokemon that can set up the preferred field condition. The sheer variety that is available makes the metagame more enjoyable to play, as now offense doesn't dominate.

    When looking at Cresselia, Uxie comes to mind. Why hasn't all this happened while Uxie's been around? Cresselia is simply much more bulkier, and has reliable recovery with Moonlight, which lends itself to being invincible. Uxie does, however, have Stealth Rock, and Momento over Cresselia, so Uxie isn't completely dead.

    Cresselia overall doesn't do much other than spread status around, and could set up Calm Mind but takes too long to pose a threat. This length just asks for luck to happen, so it generally isn't the best route. The offensive nature that is Gen V, Cresselia adds a much needed change of pace, in that it gives the slower teams a chance!
  3. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Batman, Durant is actually faster than Galvantula.

    As far as Cress goes, it definitely has a large influence in the metagame. However, I wouldn't go as far as to say that she's a bad influence. It takes some adapting to do, but I believe Cresselia fits in RU comfortably in terms of its overall power level, and certainly not a major restricting force as I initially feared.
  4. The Goddamn Batman

    The Goddamn Batman

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    My apologies. Since most Galvantula are Scarfed, I must have assumed that Galvantula outspeeds anyway. However, because of the Scarf, Galvantula can outspeed and OHKO Durant anyway, so it technically can revenge kill it. Anyway, because Cresselia (and Durant, for that matter) is still listed as BL2 on the SmogDex, there aren't as many people using her as I would assume. I think it might be easier to assess Cresselia's impact in the metagame if we were to change that, as more users would be aware of their drops. I fear a Cresselia centralized metagame, as what we had with Cofagrigus, but I think we need more people utilizing Cresselia and Durant to fully understand their roles in the new RU.
  5. Molk

    Molk tfw zoroark
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    Okay, ive played quite a few RU matches both vs decent players and against the mighty ladder in the past round, so i guess its time to post a few of my opinions :P.

    Imo, Cresselia doesnt seem broken at the moment, in fact, i, along with several other senate members believe that the space duck might even have a positive effect on the overall diversity of the metagame. Pre Cress and Durant, you could easily win the majority of your matches with just a team of Uxie/Smeargle, Nidoqueen, Moltres, Kabutops, 2 fillers. I found it rather easy to just halfass my way up the ladder by using varients of that time, i eventually made a team that at least somewhat broke away from the mold featuring underrated threat Swellow, but overall all i had to do was mix and match a very small pool of pokemon depending on my mood and do very well no matter what. Cresselia possesses monster bulk on both the physical and special side, and singlehandedly walls many members of that small pool of Pokemon such as Nidoqueen, Sceptile, Rotom-C, and even Moltres! Because of this, while offense is still really damn effective, a good offensive team needs a way to break down the moon duck. This promotes creativity among the offensive players, making them start to use good, yet often unseen Pokemon such as Absol and Pinsir to break down Cresselia. We also have threats such as Crawdaunt and Escavalier that can reliably stop Cress no matter what. On the defensive side, Cresselia promotes the use of different playstyles such as semistall, full stall, and balance again! No team using one of those playstyles will be worse with a Cresselia in the wings, she is an excellent meat shield, field supporter, and pivot. Cresselia also promotes weather such as rain and sun to become more common, which is pretty cool as these playstyles have been mainly unexplored until now!


    On durant, i honestly dont know what to think of it yet, one one hand, Durant seems like an incredibly broken force on paper, at least to me, but i havent been able to come up with a valid opinion on the iron ant thanks to one thing: nobody is using the fucking thing. Over the past round, and hundreds of games, i have seen a grand total of 3 durant :/. Two of them were manageable, and one of them ended up sweeping me because i played like a shit. I would at least give Durant some more time to see if it actually has a negative effect on the metagame before jumping to any conclusions, because i really want to see what kind of metagame will be formed once people realize that Durant is being retested!
  6. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Yea, I also noticed a noticeable increase in Crawdaunt, presumably for taking advantage of Cresselia. I also believe I've seen an increase rise in Aggron and Klinklang for the same reasons, but I may be mistaken. I haven't tried Durant myself, but I heard New Breed (?) that Lum Hone Claws work wonders :d

    I'm still surprised that Hitmonlee is still around. I assumed Cresselia would've killed its usage.
  7. Phozon

    Phozon

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    I had an RU match a while back and I have been useing a Shuffleing team and I have a Max HP max Def Druddigion and the fact that it's X-Scis can do more then 50% to it, its way to much. I'm not a fan at all for Durrant comeing down. Its got alot of power and even though Hussle gives it a chance to miss it's still way to much. Cress on the other hand, I haven't had to many problems with it. Its just a pain to ware down.
  8. Avira

    Avira

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    Druddigon's 77/90 physical defense is not that great even with maximum investment. If you want to deal with Durant, use something else.

    I don't find Cresselia or Durant's presence on the metagame to be negative so far. Cresselia is needed as a reliable answer to Nidoqueen for slower teams, and there are many Dark/Bug types that give Cresselia problems. Using more Pokemon that can keep momentum is also a reasonable answer to Cresselia, as it can't keep walling things after repeatedly taking Volt Switches. If you are really gunning to use Cryogonal on a full stall team (pretty much the only viable spinner on a defensive team), you will likely need to place all of Cresselia's EV investment into Special Defense, making it quite susceptible to Pursuit or being forced out by other strong attackers. And Cresselia is weak even with a few boosts and should never sweep unless pretty much everything goes in your favor. Durant has a hard time with the faster pace of the metagame compared to when it previously banned, and its accuracy issues are quite annoying.
  9. Molk

    Molk tfw zoroark
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    Just wanted to point out that druddigon actually has 77/90 physical bulk, im not sure if that was a typo or not, but i just felt i needed to point that out!
  10. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
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    These are thoughts from what I've seen from people, and how I used it.

    [​IMG]

    Durant is an interesting case, which looks extremely deadly, but in reality much harder to execute properly. It's been said that Durant doesn't have too many traditional counters thanks to its sheer power after setup; has a hard time setting up with Hone Claws due to its horrid Special Defense; can threaten defensive teams once it sets up; but has a hard time setting up against offensive teams because of the offensive pressure.

    The addition of Durant hasn't affected the metagame to the degree that Cresselia has, but has offered something. Its presence has influenced the offensive pace of the metagame, thanks to its Speed and Attack, in a way making the metagame "more" offensive. That being said, it still hasn't added anything ground-breaking that allows it to sweep all the time or something similar. In general, Durant is most dangerous once setup, but before that its like "Russian roulette" for a lack of a better example, in that sometimes you actually hit hard, but other times you miss and get screwed. Ironically, the same way it has influenced the to the offensive-ness, it also has a hard time setting up against offensive teams. On the other hand, Durant has a much easier time setting up against defensive teams with the pressure it can place. This "advantage" against balanced teams somewhat makes up for Cresselia's effect on the metagame, making balanced teams more popular.

    Durant has the potential to be broken, but the nature of the metagame and its surroundings sometimes make it hard for the Iron Ant.
  11. Windsong

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    What you guys need to understand about Durant, is that while it has the potential to be a top level threat (and at one point, was, of course, a very high level threat) the way that RU has warped has made it impossible for it to be as effective as it once was. First and foremost, offense is still the most solid playstyle in this meta. I know that a couple people (myself included) have been having some success playing stall/semistall oriented teams, but offense is still arguably the most effective playstyle in RU right now. When Durant was initially banned from the tier, the meta was at a stage where two types of teams were incredibly dominant - stall and balance. In metas where those types of playstyles are core, free turns show up significantly more frequently than in an offense based metagame, giving Durant the opportunities it really needed to wreak havoc with little to no support. Now, however, it doesn't have those turns, and more importantly, the teams are fast enough so that Durant isn't capable of doing anywhere near the amount of damage it used to be able to, even if it does manage to set up successfully. The cliffs of this are that, if you're using Durant, you're most likely requiring significant amounts of team support, and using free turns solely for Durant (rather than in order to set up something more destructive). It's still a good mon, sure, but far from as effective as it once was, and that is clearly shown.
  12. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Well, here's what I'd say about Cresselia and Durant.

    Cress is quite a good wall, sporting incredible defenses. And reliable recovery in Moonlight (outside of rain, that is). Pretty neat. Not too broken at all really. Two awesome Pokemon in RU known as Escavalier and Absol both counter Cress. Other things like Scyther and Crawdaunt are both really good at that too. But nonetheless, I really like how Cress fares in RU. A top wall with a diverse movepool to boot. Seems right for this meta (Lol. Cress might be NU if nobody realizes it's here). But that's just what I say.

    Durant is amazingly powerful. But it desperately needs a Hone Claws boost to be consistent. Ant is nonetheless awesome; the addition of Superpower is neat! Very powerful. Can OHKO most of the tier. Luckily, it has accuracy issues before a Hone Claws boost, not to mention Poliwrath makes a solid check to Ant. As does Scarf Magmortar, or even the rare HP Fire Sceptile. Nonetheless, I like Ant's power. It's awesome. (Like Cress, this will be NU if nobody realizes it's here).

    Anyways, the big question I have now is what will happen to the two Lake Trio members in the RU tier now that Cress and Ant are here. I wonder if they're usage will die thanks to Cress being a better wall, and Ant killing both of them with X-Scissor.
  13. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy Honko's Happy Funtime With Men
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    Yeah, I'm really liking this metagame. In Stage 10, you would literally just see the same cookie-cutter offensive team being used by most good players. Even players that don't usually play offense like SV and DC turned to offense for the round. Uxie/Smeargle | Moltres/Entei | Kabutops | Sceptile | Nidoqueen | filler was the team used by the majority of players, and that was a boring metagame to play in, nothing like what makes RU so great as a metagame. However, I really like this metagame now, and it's awesome that the Pokemon that caused this aren't broken in their own right. Cresselia and Durant have made the metagame much better (and of course the mighty Stoutland). I agree with Windsong in that the metagame is still really offensive, but now stall, balance, and anything in between is not only viable but good again. Offense still has some amazing stallbreakers that it can use such as SD Gallade and SD Zangoose, and people that are getting caught up on Cresselia seem to forget how stupidly good Pursuit-trapping was at the end of BW1. RU has become RU again, and I'm really excited about things to come.

    One of the things that makes RU so great is the room for creativity, and that good sets can come out of nowhere and suddenly be metagame-defining. We have this balance again, so now you can use things that wouldn't normally be able to be used due to the incredibly offensive nature of the past metagame. I've had success using mixed Sheer Force Life Orb Druddigon (we should've discovered this thing earlier, it shits on TanKing guys), and I'm about to test out another awesome set that hopefully will be the greatest thing since Magmortar. I hope you guys enjoy this metagame as much as I do!
  14. BattleStar

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    It's a bit late but I guess I will post what I have to say. First off I hope other can remember along with me when Cresselia was in RU. RU was quite different that time, Cresselia had numerous counters with Yamega, Sharpedo, Krook, and a whole lot of others that can check her. Nevertheless Cress still was a major aspect and resulted in getting banned.

    Strangely enough now, I feel that Cress is able to fit in to RU again. Even with some of its old counters gone, RU is in no way lacking checks for cress. There is still a healthy amount of dark types around, which usually stop Cress in its tracks if played right. With Cress being counerable it as well can a counter to other Pokemon. Like others said the introduction of Cresselia might slow down the juggernaut that seems to be the Offensive-oriented RU metagame. Which of course isn't a bad thing.
  15. Honko

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    Yeah I like this meta a lot. Cress is a fantastic add to almost any team, whether as a T-Waving pivot for offense or a reliable wall for semistall. The best part is it doesn't really outclass anything; there are still some teams that will legitimately prefer Uxie or Slowking for that role, and they also have other roles they can fill that Cressy can't. And while a well-played Cress can make life pretty rough for a lot of attackers like Nidoqueen, Sceptile, Medicham, Hitmonlee, and Tauros, it doesn't stop those mons from being viable. They still have their place in the meta. Cress adds a lot of variety and creativity to the tier, and that's just with one set. Almost everyone has been using the excellent CM + T-Wave set, but as Cress settles in I look forward to seeing it in other roles more often, maybe as a weather supporter or SubCM.

    Durant is strong and fast but clearly not broken. Also, its power is a bit overstated. Its Attack stat is obviously one of the best in the game with Hustle, but it only has 80 BP STABs to work with. Durant's X-Scissor isn't as powerful as, say, Entei's Flare Blitz or Hitmonlee's Hi Jump Kick. It's actually closer to Primeape's Close Combat or Kangaskhan's Double-Edge. Strong, but not amazingly strong. It really needs to set up before it can smash everything, not just because it wants the accuracy boost, but because it needs the power boost too. And, as anyone who's used Durant recently will tell you, finding a chance to set up is easier said than done. I think it's underused a bit right now because half the players still don't realize it's unbanned and the other half are more interested in using or reliably countering Cress. Once it settles in it should be one of the top 10-15 attackers in the tier, but I wouldn't put it much higher than that. Certainly not so overwhelmingly good that we should keep it banned.
  16. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
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    Alright, the votes are in! August has not voted yet but I will add his votes here once I receive them:

    Durant:

    So in a unanimous decision with a 0-12 vote to unban, Durant will be unbanned from BL2!
  17. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
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    Cresselia:

    So, with a 3-8 vote to unban, Cresselia will be unbanned from BL2!
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