Metagame NP: RU Stage 12: Wrecking Ball (see post 65 and 66)

[Wanka]

So this is the part where I post my thoughts even though I'm not all that experienced with the tier.

Metagame Trends:
As far as tyrantrums actual usage during the suspect, lets just say it was far and few. Any accurate perception of this mon was probably made better before the suspect than during it. I think I saw a total 4 tyrantrums throughout my roughly 60 battles of reqs. That being said, as somebody who isn't a common in this tier but plays it here and there and contributes whenever there is a suspect, I can't really give a 100% accurate analyses on the mon itself. What I can do is try though.

Is it actually broken?
Any set that isn't scarfed shouldn't even be mentioned in this thread because those aren't even close to being broken. The only set that needs to be focused on is the scarf set. I've read some posts on here about the scarf set and the general idea im getting is that the scarf set is super easy to support and can make offense look like dog shit. The part about it being super easy to support actually makes a lot of sense and kinda convinced me to maybe change my vote. The unfortunate thing is, nobody uses the scarf set on the ladder lol. Any competant RU players uses it, but you just don't see it as much as band or DD sets for some reason. I bleve I ended up seeing 3 DD rantrums and 1 band rantrum.

Another thing I can say I guess is that usually when you don't see the suspected mon being used during the suspect that there can be a case of centralization, but even though the usage wasn't there I don't think centralization is an issue looking at the mons in the tier. All in all well played scarf tyrantrums are probably broken but the chances of finding a scarf tyrantrum with the perfect support and someone who doesn't choke with are literally 1 in a million so I'm just gunna abstain on this one.

 

[InfinityX000]

Any set that isn't scarfed shouldn't even be mentioned in this thread because those aren't even close to being broken. The only set that needs to be focused on is the scarf set.

Wow. Just... Wow. If the scarf set were gone, the other sets would be nothing important, but the fact is that many of the switch-ins to Scarf die against Band. Most can't outspeed invested Adamant 71 base and many will get 2HKO'd, which means that the switch-in becomes a switch-out (or just a dead 'mon). So Tyrantrum doesn't have a scratch on it (besides hazards) and the check is dead. It can then be saved for later to rack up another kill, or at least some damage. Full HP (or 75%) Tyrantrum isn't the same as death fodder. DD and RP aren't that good but with the right support *cough hazards cough* they can be made work. Sure, they aren't the reason behind the suspect test, but we're talking about a poke that can take advantage of its own set and kill its own checks/counters. This is just bad for the meta.

 

[Wanka]

If you truly think banded tyrantrum is broke then I'm not sure what to say to you because that would have to be the most ignorant logic I've seen in a while.

Bandtrum has checks on all play styles while the argument with scarf rantrum is that it hinders offense's ability to function. There is no plausible argument you can make that ends in banded tyrantrum or DD rantrum being broken so I suggest you quit while ur ahead.

 

[FlamingVictini]

I haven't used a defiant mon on my team, nor do I think that's an effective form of hazard control. It is certainly an effective way to punish defog, but it doesn't actually prevent it (only discourages it), and when the hazards are really important, this doesn't count as hazard control in my book. Although it may seem unreasonable in theory to have enough offensive pressure/hazard control while still being worthwhile for stuff outside of checking tyrantrum, this is not true in practice, which I can say from my own experience playing with my team (it does sometimes require extremely aggressive plays and correct reads, however, to successfully maintain the hazard game and win the overall match).

You also state that if i lose my spinblocker against rapid spin then i will just lose, but in theory this is not really true. Hitmontop is easily the most potentially troublesome due to its good bulk and foresight, but I can stop it from spinblocking without need for prediction most of the time. If i don't spore another mon with smeargle, then hitmontop won't be able to spin freely on smeargle or foresight on mismagius switch. I can go kaboom with qwilfish to prevent spin, another common situation. Assuming I get that boom off, I can probably go to archeops and force it out, from which point it can't take any hits from the rest of my team. I could also just go to mismagius and nasty plot/shadow ball after the boom and stop spin that way. If i don't get to boom on hitmontop, I still have the ability to play mismagius well enough to stop spin, or to maintain a ton of pressure with mostly mismagius and archeops, but also glalie and virizion, to prevent spin. Against hitmonlee's, reckless hitmonlee is outspeed by all of the team except for my hazard setters themselves, meaning I can also just sack mismagius to a knock off but still be able to keep up hazards the rest of the game as it will be outsped and ohko'd by everything else.

For Togetic and Golbat, i have pressure with taunt, spore, explosion, and archeops stone edge/glalie's d-edge to stop it. Flygon is easily one the best defoggers, but I can still pressure it with spore, taunt from mismag, a well timed explosion, or constant pressure from glalie/boosted virizion (or mismag) and archeops has uturn so they won't be able to necessarily force a free defog from archeops, although I can ko flygon with a bit of prior damage. I will not that I did once play someone with scarf defog flygon twice (they also had a pursuit trapper + mega lix + enough viriz checks to stop it even if it gets a free sub), and consequently lost both times, because my team could not stop a scarf defog or punish it well enough even with the free turns gained by subcm viriz (which his team was actually pretty weak to, but focus miss).

Defog + Rapid Spin isn't really something I would expect to face so I won't really consider that, and forgive me if i forgot some hazard removers. Regardless, I hope I was able to demonstrate that its not impossible to maintain hazards without sacrificing consistency. I'm not even using SD + Edge Viriz because I find subcm fits better with this team (so this means i give away potential defogs to togetic and golbat pretty easily) and i don't have taunt on archeops either (also because i find u-turn more valuable), but the team is still able to maintain hazards nearly every game. I do certainly agree that I dedicate two teamslots entirely towards hazards, but both have ways to cripple/heavily dent or even kill another opponents mon, and the hazards they do set up are extremely important in the long run for my other 4 to put in a ton of work. Additionally, considering every member of my team is objectively good in RU, I don't really see how tyrantrum is really hurting offense that much other than putting a huge focus on hazards for teams that try to check it like mine does (which may still be an unhealthy aspect and something I am considering). Basically, I'm just trying to say that its not impossible to handle rantrum with an offense team that lacks a very solid counter/check to it.

 

[tehy]

and i'm back

band ttrum still has no counters, and sparse checks

Either it clicks outrage, it clicks head smash, or you have 1 of Registeel and M-lix, who switch in once on a good prediction. Considering that a full-power head smash can barely be played around, you don't have much room to predict.

currently using the immaculate Curse registeel + gastrodon core to check it. Still don't feel half as armored against it as I should be.

edit:

Oh yeah;

FlamingVictini, even if Webs is great against Ttrum, that's a really minor point in its favor. We can deduce by the lack of general webs teams (even with tyrantrum being suspected) that non-webs offense is still a massive force in the meta, and if it's got problems with tyrantrum then that's still relevant, you know? it's not as simple as saying 'just use webs' (unless it really does have massive untapped potential). If you want you can argue about how webs deals with it specifically though as a minor point, but do be upfront about that, because your post seems more like 'its not broken cause webs (!)'

 

[Entei]

Ladder just reset, rip efforts.

Whats gonna happen?

 

[termi]

and i'm back

band ttrum still has no counters, and sparse checks

Either it clicks outrage, it clicks head smash, or you have 1 of Registeel and M-lix, who switch in once on a good prediction. Considering that a full-power head smash can barely be played around, you don't have much room to predict.

currently using the immaculate Curse registeel + gastrodon core to check it. Still don't feel half as armored against it as I should be.

edit:

Oh yeah;

FlamingVictini, even if Webs is great against Ttrum, that's a really minor point in its favor. We can deduce by the lack of general webs teams (even with tyrantrum being suspected) that non-webs offense is still a massive force in the meta, and if it's got problems with tyrantrum then that's still relevant, you know? it's not as simple as saying 'just use webs' (unless it really does have massive untapped potential). If you want you can argue about how webs deals with it specifically though as a minor point, but do be upfront about that, because your post seems more like 'its not broken cause webs (!)'

"hi im tehy and i play stall" ok tehy thanks for contributing tehy bye tehy

 

[Sweep]

Choice Band Tyrantrum is even more broken than Specs Exploud because it forces you to run something faster than base 71 Speed. Egad!

In all seriousness, CB Tyrantrum is meant to be a wallbreaker. Your post was successful in convincing me that CB Tyrantrum has a strong match-up vs. stall teams, but it did not convince me that it comes close to auto-winning against them. Curse Registeel, Mega Steelix, and non-specially defensive Bronzong are examples of viable Steel-types that offer stall teams a reliable way to switch into Head Smash and Outrage. Seismitoed, Quagsire, and Gastrodon can all take Head Smashes as well (while also switching into Superpower if you're leery of using a Steel-type to check Tyrantrum too early on in the game). If Tyrantrum locks itself into Outrage to defeat one of those Pokemon, stall teams should have something like 266 Speed Flygon to revenge it. Although a well-played Choice Band Tyrantrum can punch holes effectively in stall -- as it should be able to do, being one of the tier's best wallbreakers -- stall has viable counterplay to it to prevent the Tyrantrum user from winning at team preview. It's nothing like SD Pangoro several metas ago, which defensive teams had absolutely no counterplay for whatsoever. CB Tyrantrum is good at what it does but not even close to broken on its own.

That's not to say that Tyrantrum itself isn't suspect-worthy, as it absolutely is...it's just odd to see the CB set of all things be listed as the reason for wanting it out of the tier.

 

[InfinityX000]

If you truly think banded tyrantrum is broke then I'm not sure what to say to you because that would have to be the most ignorant logic I've seen in a while.

Bandtrum has checks on all play styles while the argument with scarf rantrum is that it hinders offense's ability to function. There is no plausible argument you can make that ends in banded tyrantrum or DD rantrum being broken so I suggest you quit while ur ahead.

I really don't think it's "broke." I think it adds to the overall broken-ness of ttrum in general. I was simply saying it shouldn't be anything to overlook, as a reply to your saying that only Scarf should be even discussed.

I haven't used a defiant mon on my team, nor do I think that's an effective form of hazard control. It is certainly an effective way to punish defog, but it doesn't actually prevent it (only discourages it), and when the hazards are really important, this doesn't count as hazard control in my book. Although it may seem unreasonable in theory to have enough offensive pressure/hazard control while still being worthwhile for stuff outside of checking tyrantrum, this is not true in practice, which I can say from my own experience playing with my team (it does sometimes require extremely aggressive plays and correct reads, however, to successfully maintain the hazard game and win the overall match).

It isn't just your team that matters. I agree about the Defiant thing, but I was just stating that as one option that doesn't work well. Your team might be good at keeping up Webz and offensive pressure. But that much pressure requires not 1, not 2, but 6 teamslots (or you just won't use some until all hazard removal dies).

You also state that if i lose my spinblocker against rapid spin then i will just lose, but in theory this is not really true. Hitmontop is easily the most potentially troublesome due to its good bulk and foresight, but I can stop it from spinblocking without need for prediction most of the time. If i don't spore another mon with smeargle, then hitmontop won't be able to spin freely on smeargle or foresight on mismagius switch. I can go kaboom with qwilfish to prevent spin, another common situation. Assuming I get that boom off, I can probably go to archeops and force it out, from which point it can't take any hits from the rest of my team. I could also just go to mismagius and nasty plot/shadow ball after the boom and stop spin that way. If i don't get to boom on hitmontop, I still have the ability to play mismagius well enough to stop spin, or to maintain a ton of pressure with mostly mismagius and archeops, but also glalie and virizion, to prevent spin. Against hitmonlee's, reckless hitmonlee is outspeed by all of the team except for my hazard setters themselves, meaning I can also just sack mismagius to a knock off but still be able to keep up hazards the rest of the game as it will be outsped and ohko'd by everything else

Again, this is just your team. You can argue that it's perfect, which I don't think you are, but your team is good at what it does and makes sacrifices to be so.

For Togetic and Golbat, i have pressure with taunt, spore, explosion, and archeops stone edge/glalie's d-edge to stop it. Flygon is easily one the best defoggers, but I can still pressure it with spore, taunt from mismag, a well timed explosion, or constant pressure from glalie/boosted virizion (or mismag) and archeops has uturn so they won't be able to necessarily force a free defog from archeops, although I can ko flygon with a bit of prior damage. I will not that I did once play someone with scarf defog flygon twice (they also had a pursuit trapper + mega lix + enough viriz checks to stop it even if it gets a free sub), and consequently lost both times, because my team could not stop a scarf defog or punish it well enough even with the free turns gained by subcm viriz (which his team was actually pretty weak to, but focus miss)

Well there you go. Your team isn't perfect, and I appreciate you added that part. Some ppl wouldn't include negative data.

Defog + Rapid Spin isn't really something I would expect to face so I won't really consider that, and forgive me if i forgot some hazard removers. Regardless, I hope I was able to demonstrate that its not impossible to maintain hazards without sacrificing consistency. I'm not even using SD + Edge Viriz because I find subcm fits better with this team (so this means i give away potential defogs to togetic and golbat pretty easily) and i don't have taunt on archeops either (also because i find u-turn more valuable), but the team is still able to maintain hazards nearly every game. I do certainly agree that I dedicate two teamslots entirely towards hazards, but both have ways to cripple/heavily dent or even kill another opponents mon, and the hazards they do set up are extremely important in the long run for my other 4 to put in a ton of work. Additionally, considering every member of my team is objectively good in RU, I don't really see how tyrantrum is really hurting offense that much other than putting a huge focus on hazards for teams that try to check it like mine does (which may still be an unhealthy aspect and something I am considering). Basically, I'm just trying to say that its not impossible to handle rantrum with an offense team that lacks a very solid counter/check to it.

RSpin+Defog is a thing. Otherwise, see above.

 

[eren]

Uhm I know this is a one liner but... I had reqs but hadnt posted and ladder reset. So are we getting an extension?

 

[Wanka]

I really don't think it's "broke." I think it adds to the overall broken-ness of ttrum in general. I was simply saying it shouldn't be anything to overlook, as a reply to your saying that only Scarf should be even discussed.

Idk if you read sweeps post already but I suggest you do because I don't feel like exlpaining to you why CB tyrantrum doesn't contribute to any broken-ness tyrantrum has. The CB set doesn't hinder any one playstyle, all 3 archetypes have completely viable ways of dealing with the CB set and it's simply just a wall breaker doing its job. Now, the general idea around this suspect was that the scarf set hinders 1 of the 3 archetypes to a massive degree. That being said, there really isn't any reason to try and sit here and post about how the band and DD sets are also a factor in tyrantrums potential broken-ness because that is just simply illogical for obvious reasons.

But by all means, you can continue to waste your time by doing as such....it's not a huge burden on me.

 

[atomicllamas]

Hi, the ladder reset could not have come at a worse time, if you were close to reqs I am really sorry, that's incredibly shitty. If you had reqs, I don't feel that bad, screenshot them immediately always. I need to discuss with Molk, but expect a small extension.

 

[Cowtao]

Tyrantrum really forces you to just choose something that naturally hard counters or checks him. When I was teambuilding he was of the utmost important to counter because of how he could easily destroy more than half the tier with his coverage and Head Smash. The fact he can also have a multitude of sets to get around all of his usual checks and counters with minimal reduction to his power means that you can make a team designed to handle him alongside the rest of the tier with relative more ease compared to not choosing him. That is really unfair as M-Lix, while an already potent option, is basically forced into many teams because of Tyrantrum's ability to tear through other physical walls. Even Mola and Tangrowth sometimes struggle to switch in or stay in on Tyrantrum. This Dino needs to be extinct. :(

Also, I'm back too. :o

 

[atomicllamas]

Okay so Molk and I have decided to extend the suspect test until Wednesday the 2nd of December at 11:59 EST. Additionally, if you have a screen shot of your alt close to reqs (think above 2500 or 2600 coil) and would like to send us a screenshot, we will consider a special application where that screenshot + a screenshot of you playing 5-15 additional games is enough for reqs, depending on your GXE and Coil pre-reset. You could also try searching this thread, as someone may have screened your alt while taking a picture of the portion of the ladder near them, so if you can prove that one of the alts on there is yours (screen the name + gear in upper left hand corner of showdown) then you can go ahead and use that as your special app.

Sorry for all the trouble, I'm extremely unhappy about this as well!

 

[atomicllamas]

And Luigi. has agreed to host another live tournament for reqs, this Saturday at 6pm EST, same process as last time!

 

[tehy]

Choice Band Tyrantrum is even more broken than Specs Exploud because it forces you to run something faster than base 71 Speed. Egad!

In all seriousness, CB Tyrantrum is meant to be a wallbreaker. Your post was successful in convincing me that CB Tyrantrum has a strong match-up vs. stall teams, but it did not convince me that it comes close to auto-winning against them. Curse Registeel, Mega Steelix, and non-specially defensive Bronzong are examples of viable Steel-types that offer stall teams a reliable way to switch into Head Smash and Outrage. Seismitoed, Quagsire, and Gastrodon can all take Head Smashes as well (while also switching into Superpower if you're leery of using a Steel-type to check Tyrantrum too early on in the game). If Tyrantrum locks itself into Outrage to defeat one of those Pokemon, stall teams should have something like 266 Speed Flygon to revenge it. Although a well-played Choice Band Tyrantrum can punch holes effectively in stall -- as it should be able to do, being one of the tier's best wallbreakers -- stall has viable counterplay to it to prevent the Tyrantrum user from winning at team preview. It's nothing like SD Pangoro several metas ago, which defensive teams had absolutely no counterplay for whatsoever. CB Tyrantrum is good at what it does but not even close to broken on its own.

That's not to say that Tyrantrum itself isn't suspect-worthy, as it absolutely is...it's just odd to see the CB set of all things be listed as the reason for wanting it out of the tier.

Honestly, I don't think 'auto-win' is the only thing that warrants a ban, right? Tyrantrum absolutely has the ability to just go out there and get a kill against most stall teams. You're nearly forced to run Mega Steelix; any team with that as its mostly Tyrantrum check pretty much loses to, say SD Drap + CB TTrum, because ttrum either goes out and gets a kill or or your Steelix gets hit with a Superpower and can't really recover there. All of those grounds just get hit by an outrage and from there can't sponge 2 head smashes.

By the way, is anyone really using phys. D bronzong? What for? I asked on PS:

'I'm using it tehy'
'It's really bad.'

and
'and because of mega aboma, particularly those with wood hammer and sd'

which is fair, but what about M-Aboma with Blizzard and Focus Blast?

let's talk about the checks

Registeel: 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 288-340 (79.1 - 93.4%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 135-159 (37 - 43.6%)

Bronzong: 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bronzong: 168-198 (49.7 - 58.5%)

Mega Steelix: 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 196-232 (55.3 - 65.5%)

Steel checks basically have to predict carefully or get smashed; only Mega Steelix can even switch into multiple Head Smashes without being useless afterwards, and it doesn't even have Leftovers to heal them off.

Bulky Grounds all die to a pair of Outrages, so there's that. If tyrantrum is still locked in and you've got a fairy, you can do a ton back, but that's a cointoss so D:

If Tyrantrum locks itself into Outrage to defeat one of those Pokemon, stall teams should have something like 266 Speed Flygon to revenge it

Speaking personally as a guy who has tried to reconfigure his stall team in a bunch of ways...no way i'm running two bulky grounds on the same team. Seriously, if i've already got a Torterra or a Gastrodon or a Seismitoad, then Flygon doesn't have nearly as much value to me as another Pokemon could. By the way, 0 SpA Flygon Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 248-294 (81 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, so even this strategy has a 44% chance of failure, meaning 2 kills are claimed. (I've heard people are running more defensive Flygon nowadays; don't actually like Earth Power on Flygon, but if you're using Earthquake then Flygon just dies.)

Oh yeah, this all relies on the two-turn or three-turn coinflip to begin with. Seriously, this is nowhere near a consistent or good strategy for dealing with Tyrantrum.

In short, you're going to run a pair of checks and will probably lose one of them. Alternately, you can run Mega Steelix and probably get it taken out at some point. CB Tyrantrum is going to run train on your team pretty much no matter what you do unless you predict like a god. Is it broken? ...I don't know, but it's better than you are saying it is

What I guess bothers me is that if I say something similar for an anti-offensive Pokemon as you're saying for an anti-stall Pokemon 'it forces you to run something bulkier than 100/100 Defense!', you'd reject that as a really bad idea. Not much with 71 Speed that also invests in it works well on stall (i've tried and disliked Flygon, it's not powerful or bulky), so i'm basically running with a filler who doesn't even lock down Tyrantrum perfectly. As a stall user, if you reach the point where you think 'i have to sac against X and revenge', you are either about to lose or, very occasionally, about to win.

The reason that no one ever said 'it's an offense breaker doing its job' is because 'really good offense breaker' is simply grounds for a ban

edit:

Any team is going to struggle with pretty much any competent offense breaker by running 6 frail offensive Pokemon. If you can't run anything moderately bulky on your team, you're going to have difficulty bouncing back from any kind of priority uer or duo set up agility users meant to break apart each other's checks. A Pokemon that's able to punish this isn't evidence that it's broken, it's evidence of its capability to take advantage of poor teambuilding quirks.

hmm

in any case, your argument is 'full stall is dead'. Maybe, maybe not. Personally, i've been playing it a while and I don't think so, but I'm open to discussing that.

 

[phantom]

Any team is going to struggle with pretty much any competent wallbreaker by running 6 slow passive Pokemon. If you can't run anything moderately fast on your team, you're going to have difficulty bouncing back from any kind of lure or duo set up sweepers meant to break apart each other's checks. A Pokemon that's able to punish this isn't evidence that it's broken, it's evidence of its capability to take advantage of poor teambuilding quirks.

 

[InfinityX000]

As stated above, nobody thinks CB is broken. But it is capable of luring in Scarf's checks and 2HKOing them. EQ and Superpower both are capable of 2HKOing MegaLix, while Head Smash can 2HKO most of its resists. This means that it can survive after killing/damaging supposed switch-ins. It isn't broken, but it is one piece of the puzzle. Losing your mega can also be pretty central. Also, don't forget about Exploud. Many teams use the same check for Ttrum as for Spexploud, and CB Ttrum can make it easier to sweep/semi-sweep with Spexploud.

 

[MrAldo]

Thanks to the extension I may be able to get the requirements but who knows, Im not here to just post that. Im pretty convinced tyrantrum isnt broken by itself seeing there are plenty of good rock resists that fit on offense and due to ORAS increasing power creep running heavy offense or offense with 6 "frail" mons becomes increasingly difficult to pull off but in reality, that is just not how tyrantrum is an unhealthy presence in the metagame.

Tyrantrum is the biggest no risk / high reward pokemon in this metagame, by far, no other pokemon has a scenario where literally spamming a move is a extremely reliable method of winning and how easy is to overwhelm its respective checks since tyrantrum pairs well with a lot of mons that share pretty much the shame checks (LO durant, specs exploud or any exploud, drapion, vivillon, fletchinder, LO sneasel, etc), and all of these being pretty viable makes tyrantrum a constraining presence by being just in team preview. You do have 5 other members for others mons and sturdy rock resists but realistically you can still fall apart, and it can still beat its checks by itself with the proper coverage move anyways.

Im sorry but I see very few reasons to keep tyrantrum but much more reasons for it to go. It is checkeable, beatable, all you want but it is pretty hard to justify it to stay all things considered. I feel rock polish its tyrantrum best set. The combination of LO / band durant + rock polish tyrantrum is absurdly painful to go against.

Lets drop some good sets that Ive been trying for a while:

Rhyperior @ Choice Band
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Megahorn
- Stone Edge

If you think switching into banded tyrantrum is a pain, you obviously havent tried switching into this thing. This thing is brutally strong, a rock spam combo of rock polish tyrantrum + this is outstanding since they share some some checks and rhyperior just blow through them with a coverage or just its STABs. Tangrowth just dies to megahorn (offensive variants), flygon is gone with ice punch, mega steelix isnt a switch-in, overwhelm bronzong together etc, etc. If tyrantrum leaves this become an excellent replacement albeit a lot slower and easier to revenge kill, this thing just have no switch-ins. So strong and so good (Why I was using this over tyrantrum? cause I can!)

Klinklang @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wild Charge
- Gear Grind
- Substitute
- Shift Gear

Atomicllamas was the first person to bring the most to the spotlight after cobalion left IIRC, he did something beautiful with this. One of NU most prominent setup sweepers is a really cool choice for an offensive steel type thanks to having notable advantages over mons like durant, most notably being a steel type that actually resist flying, being one of the fews that can use choice scarf tyrantrum as setup bait if it is locked into its STABs and being a pretty sturdy rock resist with just HP investment. +2 klinklang reach an outstanding speed tier and +1 attack damage output is not shabby at all. It has truly notable niches over other steel types, with tyrantrum leaving it may lose its niche but right now is a really fun mon and one of my favorite mons to use (tbh, one part of me want to keep tyranturm just to keep using this). Lovely mon.

Cheers!

 

[phantom]

Im pretty convinced tyrantrum isnt broken by itself seeing there are plenty of good rock resists that fit on offense and due to ORAS increasing power creep running heavy offense or offense with 6 "frail" mons becomes increasingly difficult to pull off but in reality, that is just not how tyrantrum is an unhealthy presence in the metagame.

Tyrantrum is the biggest no risk / high reward pokemon in this metagame, by far, no other pokemon has a scenario where literally spamming a move is a extremely reliable method of winning and how easy is to overwhelm its respective checks since tyrantrum pairs well with a lot of mons that share pretty much the shame checks (LO durant, specs exploud or any exploud, drapion, vivillon, fletchinder, LO sneasel, etc), and all of these being pretty viable makes tyrantrum a constraining presence by being just in team preview. You do have 5 other members for others mons and sturdy rock resists but realistically you can still fall apart, and it can still beat its checks by itself with the proper coverage move anyways.

Im sorry but I see very few reasons to keep tyrantrum but much more reasons for it to go. It is checkeable, beatable, all you want but it is pretty hard to justify it to stay all things considered. I feel rock polish its tyrantrum best set. The combination of LO / band durant + rock polish tyrantrum is absurdly painful to go against.

A lot of your arguments are just completely fabricated at best or disingenuous at worst. Can you explain what rock resists fit on offense that don't slow down the tempo of a team and aren't complete shit (i.e. Klinklang being unable to deal more than 15% to one of the best Pokemon in the tier)? This isn't about running '6 frail Pokemon', which is just a flagrantly wrong way to articulate many of the pro-ban posts, this is about having to completely forfeit your team's ability to keep up momentum by having to run a physically bulky rock resist on offense just to keep Tyrantrum from slicing through, something you don't normally have to do in order to build a good offensive team. As shown in this thread, the options outside of momentum sucking/defensive/slow Pokemon don't exist.

I'm pro-ban on Tyrantrum, but being able to support something isn't grounds to ban something alone. It's the constraint it puts on teambuilding alongside how easy it is to support that makes it kind of stupid because you know what few handful of options your opponent is going to bring, so it's easy to pair Tyrantrum up with something to take advantage of that. Second, the Rock Polish isn't the best set seeing as how it requires far more support to execute than the Choice Scarf set, considering not only do you have to already soften up sturdy rock resist, but even the less bulky ones such as Virizion, along with making sure revenge killers such as Scarf Durant and Scarf Flygon aren't around to pick it off. As much as I want to see Tyrantrum banned, I feel like anyone who advocates that it's broken/suspect worthy based on the Choice Band or Rock Polish set really don't know what they're talking about. I don't think a single person on the council would have advocated to suspect Tyrantrum for any set other than Scarf.

 

[Wanka]

As stated above, nobody thinks CB is broken. But it is capable of luring in Scarf's checks and 2HKOing them. EQ and Superpower both are capable of 2HKOing MegaLix, while Head Smash can 2HKO most of its resists. This means that it can survive after killing/damaging supposed switch-ins. It isn't broken, but it is one piece of the puzzle. Losing your mega can also be pretty central. Also, don't forget about Exploud. Many teams use the same check for Ttrum as for Spexploud, and CB Ttrum can make it easier to sweep/semi-sweep with Spexploud.

Then why are you talking about those sets if you don't think they are broken? You continue to go out of your way to talk about band 2hkos the entire tier blah blah and how it is a factor in tyrantrums "overall broken-ness" and then you go out and say "oh yeah I don't think the cb set is broken though"

Do you understand how illogical that sounds? I honestly don't know which side you are on. If you don't think the cb set or speed boosting sets are broken than stop saying that they contribute to tyrants overall broken-ness because ur contradicting ur own logic and it's just comes off as confusing.

Now, maybe I should phrase my reasoning this way. The CB set or the boosting sets do not hinder any one playstyle in the tier. Each playstyle has viable ways of checking those sets therefore those sets do not contribute to the overall broken-ness of tyrantrum. The set that does hinder 1 of the 3 archetypes is the scarf set and the only set that deems/contributes to tyrant being anywhere close to being broken.

Hopefully this can clear things up for you.

 

[Rollout Shuckle]

Then why are you talking about those sets if you don't think they are broken? You continue to go out of your way to talk about band 2hkos the entire tier blah blah and how it is a factor in tyrantrums "overall broken-ness" and then you go out and say "oh yeah I don't think the cb set is broken though"

Do you understand how illogical that sounds? I honestly don't know which side you are on. If you don't think the cb set or speed boosting sets are broken than stop saying that they contribute to tyrants overall broken-ness because ur contradicting ur own logic and it's just comes off as confusing.

Now, maybe I should phrase my reasoning this way. The CB set or the boosting sets do not hinder any one playstyle in the tier. Each playstyle has viable ways of checking those sets therefore those sets do not contribute to the overall broken-ness of tyrantrum. The set that does hinder 1 of the 3 archetypes is the scarf set and the only set that deems/contributes to tyrant being anywhere close to being broken.

Hopefully this can clear things up for you.

Lol iWanka you don't need to be so condescending in your post(s). All InfinityX000 is saying is that the Choice Band set isn't broken by itself, but it DOES take advantage of / feed off of the unhealthiness (not brokenness) of the Scarf set. People will switch in checks such as Bronzong, Torterra, and Seismitoad expecting the obvious Scarf set, only to get 2HKOed by Band. The Choice Band set, due to the prevalence of the Scarf set, is easily able to masquerade as if it were Scarf and force an offensive Pokemon out, carving a huge chunk off of whatever (slow) Pokemon comes in and probably 2HKOing it for its team. Though not a huge aspect of Tyrantrum's unhealthy effect on the metagame, the Choice Band set should at least be kept in the back of your mind when voting on whether or not to ban the dinosaur.

 

[fran17]

I'd just like to make you all know how good is Gurdurr right now :)

Hide

Gurdurr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Mach Punch
- Bulk Up

He fits really well balance and semi stall teams, giving them a solid wincondition with a reasonable bulk, a good power, a priority and a way to recover HP (Drain Punch). He also can take advantage of many choice scarf user in the tier like Tyrantrum, Flygon, Rotom-Mow. And unlike other fighting types with some exceptions can beat 1v1 passive fighting checks like Qwilfish and Amoonguss! Paired with something like Virizion that can weaken fairy types Gurdurr can be a really difficult mon to play againist.

Also I'm going to test out how a LO Sheer Force sets works to lure fighting checks for the likes of scarf Lee or CB Sawk :O

 

[EonX]

Taking attention away from Tyrantrum at the moment, I just want to discuss something I was originally just fooling around with, but ended up finding some potential in:

Zebstrika @ Life Orb
Ability: Sap Sipper / Lightning Rod
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Hidden Power Ice
- Thunderbolt

Before I get too far into this, I have to give some credit to galbia for sparking my interest in trying out this mon. Anyway, I know what a lot of you are probably thinking. "Eon, Zebstrika is PU and never used at all in RU. What could it possibly have over other Electric-types in the tier, specifically Rotom-C and Jolteon? Zebstrika has a few huge qualities that give it a niche in the tier. Base 116 Speed is incredible in this meta. Being able to outspeed Durant, Virizion, and Sneasal is a huge deal. While it might not be as fast as Jolteon, it possesses Fire-type coverage to blow back Grass-types hoping to wall it off, which is something that Zebstrika only shares with Eelektross, a Pokemon that fills a much more different role than Zeb does. Another major quality Zebstrika has is Sap Sipper. This is a complete godsend for it and perhaps the only reason Zebstrika can make its tools work in RU. With Sap Sipper, Zebstrika can suddenly become a very safe switch-in for the likes of Rotom-C, Tangrowth (watch out for Specs Focus Blast) and Amoonguss. Zeb also completely dominates Smeargle leads thanks to the Spore immunity. With this Grass-type immunity, Zebstrika is able to switch into many of the Grass-types it wants to break through with Overheat. Speaking of Overheat, I can't tell you how important this move is for Zebstrika. Not only is it great for the Grass-types that typically check Electric-types, but it also drills Mega Steelix, the bane of most other Electrics in the tier. The best thing about Zebstrika is that if you can remove opponents that Zebstrika has to use Overheat against, it can become a great late-game cleaner with that raw base 116 Speed. In fact, the only non-Scarf mons that outspeed Zebstrika are Accelgor (dies to Overheat) Jolteon (Overheat does 51% minimum) and Dugtrio (do I need to say how this goes?) Now, I've talked really about Sap Sipper, but I would be remiss if I didn't make a small mention of Lightning Rod for the Special Attack boost it can give to Zebstrika. While this hurts a lot of extra switch-in opportunities, the extra boost in power can sometimes enable a late-game sweep if you want Zeb more for that. I'm not trying to claim that Zebstrika is the best Electric-type in the tier by any means, but with a combination of Sap Sipper, great Speed tier, and access to Overheat, I think Zebstrika has a pretty strong niche in the tier and it just might surprise you.

 

[InfinityX000]

Aight i know its p late to respond, but here goes:

Then why are you talking about those sets if you don't think they are broken? You continue to go out of your way to talk about band 2hkos the entire tier blah blah and how it is a factor in tyrantrums "overall broken-ness" and then you go out and say "oh yeah I don't think the cb set is broken though"

This is simply stating the ability of Choice Band sets to take advantage of the meta in such a way that can make it easier to sweep with other pokes. This doesn't make it broken, it is just another role it can play.

Do you understand how illogical that sounds? I honestly don't know which side you are on. If you don't think the cb set or speed boosting sets are broken than stop saying that they contribute to tyrants overall broken-ness because ur contradicting ur own logic and it's just comes off as confusing.

I am pro-ban. It's kinda clear that I'm not contradicting myself. You are making it clear that you never think that any set can be in between meh and broken. Guess what? They can be! If you are saying that they have no meaning in the test, that is false. They are still a small piece of the puzzle.

Now, maybe I should phrase my reasoning this way. The CB set or the boosting sets do not hinder any one playstyle in the tier. Each playstyle has viable ways of checking those sets therefore those sets do not contribute to the overall broken-ness of tyrantrum. The set that does hinder 1 of the 3 archetypes is the scarf set and the only set that deems/contributes to tyrant being anywhere close to being broken.

Hopefully this can clear things up for you.

This is simply not true. Yes, each playstyle can check it. Do they realize they need to check it as they immediately switch out of their check into a Scarf Ttrum counter? NO!

This whole post, to me, says, "Hi, I'm iWanka and I think that there should only be one thing discussed because it is more relevant. There can be many points against ban, but only one for ban. Any other points may not be brought up without resistance, and no effort will be made to look from anyone else's point of view."

Thank you very much for openly sharing your feat of closed-mindedness.

EDIT: Closed-mindedness referring to a specific form of stubbornness. I realize that there can be multiple meanings of this.