1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

np: RU Stage 13 - All I want for Christmas - is a balanced tier

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by SilentVerse, Dec 4, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    165
    Have you even looked at your options? Sneasel is anti meta as fuck, Skuntanks 4 Dark move trapper set(Punishment/Crunch/Sucker Punch/ Pursuit) completely shits on it, etc. Also it has 4 MSS and HP MSS It is too dependant on hidden power to take out counters as if you use fighting you get get smashed by pinsir and exca and fire gets raped by SD Absol as it can take one HP Fire and swords dance and sucker punch or pursuit/night slash it(the set is SD/Sucker Punch/Night slash or pursuit/superpower/) . And it cant pack psyshock and psychic and ice beam and thunder wave and hidden power and moonlight AND Calm Mind and weather for weather teams, It relies on having one move way too much so I usualy run subtank/Trappertank and SubSD Pinsir and I dont worrie about it and I personaly think im overpacking lol. Cress is a S rank poke, of course its going to be damn good, but I think your not looking at your options enough and your under estimating cresses counters and flaws, this is very much comparable to Pro Drilbur/Murkrow ban people in LC.
  2. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest lovin'
    is a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,431
    Skuntank and Sneasel see very little usage in RU. We shouldn't mention them because they are completely irrelevant to this meta, thank you.

    Yes, some physical powerhouses such as Escavalier, Absol, and Pinsir are capable of defeating it. Cress IS beatable, that's why I said Cress is nowhere near completely broken as a wall. But its capabilities are simply overwhelming. Depending on which Hidden Power it is running, it could potentially defeat its counters, of course not all of them at once due to only one HP being available at one time. It can also cripple its opponents with T-Wave if its running that, so it can be an annoyance. You're also completely underestimating its ability to just sit there and laugh at anything that fails to hit it super effectively, such as Nidoqueen and Glaceon.

    Another thing worth mentioning is that Cress has amazing synergy with the mighty Poliwrath. Poliwrath is one of the tankiest mons in the tier, and it can come in and laugh at anything that counters Cress. It resists Bug and Dark STAB alike, so then it can burn Pinsir and Esca with Scald, and throw Absol with Circle Throw. This synergy alone is utterly overwhelming.

    In short, Cress is broken. We've been through this.
  3. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Messages:
    651
    Oiawesome, you do have valid points. However, they all means having more than one Pokemon to take down Cresselia, such as Escavalier + Skuntank, for example. This, however, underestimates the opponent's ability. Who is going to leave Cresselia in on a Skunktank if it can't do anything. Likewise, keeping Cresselia in against Escavalier is a bad choice if she lacks Hidden Power Fire.

    Assuming Cresselia is a good player's hands, then she will be near unstoppable.
  4. Molk

    Molk mfw zoroark
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    RU Leader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,432

    Disregarding the rest of your post, i'm genuinely curious as to what Sneasel is capable of in RU that makes it so anti metagame. I havent tried Sneasel at all, but looking at its stats and movepool it seems like an all out attacker might be effective, maybe something like Ice Shard/Pursuit/Low Kick/Ice Punch? Punishment seems like a good option as well to take out a boosted Cresselia in a pinch, but i really dont know where i would fit it. With that set Sneasel would be capable of picking off the various Grass-types in the RU tier such as Sceptile, Lilligant, and Rotom-C with ease, Sneasel's excellent Speed stat would allow Sneasel to revenge kill Nidoqueen with a STAB Ice Punch to the face. I can also see Sneasel using its excellent Speed stat to pursuit trap various Pokemon such as Cryogonal, Rotom, and even weakened Slowking. So back to my original question, what else does Sneasel do? What team do you use it on and how does Sneasel support that team, or how does your team support your Sneasel? What specific Sneasel set do you use? It has some pretty cool options like Beat Up, Punishment, and Swords Dance among the other things i mentioned, do you use any of those? Sneasel is a pretty cool Pokemon in general and i really want to know what you use it for so i can try it out for myself :>.
  5. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    165
    I think Ill respond to Molks comment of sneasel since Im more intrested in that conversation myself and I dont want to rehash what I said before:
    @Molk:Personaly I use Choice Band and LO SD since CB is damn anti meta as It can trap many pokemon in this meta like you have listed:Most Psychics/Ghosts(It outspeeds evrey psy/ghost in RU&NU and thats preety cool) it can pick off nido with ice punch/pursuit combo punishing it for its evrey option, and tangrowth weakend slowking etc. I personaly use Punishment over ice shard as you outspeed evrey commen pokemon that really matters naturaly and Punishment hardpresses Cress and other boosters also basicly makes it 6-5 when I see cress in the team preview.All of the suspects get hit by sneasel or get hardpressed by Sneasel, Nidoqueen:Ice STAB and way higher speed, Cress: Punishment , and trapping hurt it hard, Hail: Actualy sneasel helps hail as it can take out Slowking , the tiers premier BlizzSpam absorber. Overall Sneasel is nice in this meta and Is actualy very viable.

    Im going to respond to Scrafty's part of Skuntank and Sneasel: Lol you are one of those people who say if a poke isnt RU or top NU its not viable in RU?That is simply not true you have no argument to support it also, Skun and Sneasel are VERY viable in RU try them and you will see.
  6. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest lovin'
    is a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,431
    I never actually said that these two weren't RU-Viable, but the fact that these two are not used much makes them not so much worthy of mentioning because no one uses them. Though Sneasel seems really fucking cool to use. Skuntank, I have tried, and it has been proven to be pretty viable, although it is rather outclassed. I have used Skuntank, at the very least, but it is really good in RU if used right.

    Anyways, Vanilluxe also seems viable in RU now that hail is back. It has Ice Body to constantly heal itself (Like Walrein and Glaceon). And it also has a decent 79 Speed stat, enough to outspeed threats like Absol and Nidoqueen, and Autotomize allows it to speed up to some good levels. A Blizzard very powerful that it can do some work. Seems very usable now.
  7. Leman

    Leman

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    411
    The problem is that some of those Dark/Bug types are still weak as fuck (Sneasel, Spiritomb, Skuntank). Cresselia can just tank them, Paralyze or Poison them and then switch out with ~50% health. She'll probably have time to come back in on something she walls (read: the rest of the tier), and heal back up.

    Fire types like Entei and Moltres seem to handle most of Cresselia's checks very well, toasting those Bugs that give her trouble (Escavalier, Pinsir, sometimes Scyther, Durant without Stone Edge) and the don't really care about burns from Spiritomb. Also Pokemon like Moltres and Entei have the bulk to take a hit from Sneasel or Skuntank and hit back with a really Powerful attack. And they both really enjoy the Paralysis support.
  8. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    165
    Actualy Punsihment from both Sneasel and Skuntank with a Choice Band Strait up OHKOs CM Cress at +1.And w/o CM , Cress simply isnt as threatning and these mons arent "weak as fuck" and most of them can use sub to wall the dump out of cress. Also Cresses offensive presance is PATHETIC UNBOOSTED and running CM means the risk of being assulted with punsihment and switching means losing all your bossts.
  9. Leman

    Leman

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    411
    No it doesn't?

    255 Atk Choice Band Sneasel (+Atk) Punishment vs 252 HP/252 Def Cresselia (+Def) : 62.16% - 73.65% (2 hits to KO)
    255 Atk Choice Band Skuntank (+Atk) Punishment vs 252 HP/252 Def Cresselia (+Def) : 60.81% - 72.3% (2 hits to KO)

    Yes, that's with the CM boost. That's the spread I've been running and it works wonders. You're gonna get hit by a Thunder Wave, and Cresselia switches out with 40%-50%. Then, if you get Cresselia in easily on 4 or 5 of the other members of your team she can just Moonlight back up, and boost again.

    SubSkuntank/Sneasel are too weak to do any damage to anything with a resist probably wont be running Pursuit, and really cant do too much damage to Cresselia anyways.
  10. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    165
    I am done with this guy,"They probaly wont be running pursuit" that just proves you have zero knowlage on these pokes and you have never faced/used them vs cress , please stop theory monning just my plead as it will make it way easier to have a intellegent conversation with you, no offense, I just hate theorymonning about things in the meta that are usable. Guess what always happens the cress user sets up +6/+6 agianst me by a 'lure mon and then they think they got the game,then BOOM SNEASEL ACTION and they are dead meybe if people didnt leave it in on sneasel I wouldent be so convinced.(and btw SD lum sneasel totaly beats "your" cress w/ punishment wich is one of the most commen sneasel sets.)
  11. Leman

    Leman

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    411
    No need to be a dick.

    Why would you run Pursuit and Sub on the same set for Sneasel? I feel like you're already wasting two moveslots on a Pokemon thats starved for moveslots already.

    252 +2 Atk Sneasel Punishment vs 252 HP/252 Def Cresselia (+Def) : 75.68% - 89.19% (2 hits to KO)

    Lum SD Sneasel is a weak, SR weak, frail Pokemon. The only reason to use it in the metagame is because it has a SE stab against Cresselia and a decent speed tier. Also you keep changing your set. First, CB and then Lum SD. Stop. Besides there's nothing stopping me from just switching out, taking a measly 40% from your Pursuit, and showing up later and healing back up. Because Cresselia walls 80%-90% of the tier! Most of the tier checks Sneasel anyways, and wont be too scared about switching in.
  12. Double01

    Double01 Hate it or love it the under dog's on top

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2011
    Messages:
    788
    @ Oiawesome You act like Cm cress is the only cress out there. I used a Cress of twave / psychic / Hp fire / moonlight and that cress basically kills or cripples all of your "counters" you have toward cress. This cress may not have been sweeping, but it supported my team so much through para support. The fact cress wallspratocally the whole tier, and the things it doesn't wall are generally handled by Poliwrath.

    The point being is that you fail to recognize that cress walls 90% of the tier and you "counters" are either killed or parad. And that is why it is so dangerous and a suspect.

    P.s. Try not to sound so condescending towards others, or you will be talked down to by others yourself.
  13. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    165
    Cress is total dead weight offensivly without calm mind and your set says basicly "Hey subset up sweepers/ground type set up sweepers set up on me!" Seriously you seem like you havent looked at your options its like saying Murkrow and Drilbur are invincable in LC.another part is that cres HATES 4MSS :W/o CM it fails to do anything back to the things its supposidly "100% walling" and without t-wave it cant really threaten out other walls etc. Also a LOT of other CMers beat it such as Murkrow,Duosion,Missy, and preety much evrey CMer with a recovery move that out stall (probaly hail) moonlight.
  14. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]
    is a Pre-Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2012
    Messages:
    737
    @ Oiawesome: Cresselia is most certainly not dead-weight against offensive teams if it isn't Calm Mind. It can quite easily wall and paralyze and slowly wear down the opponent with ease. The fact is that to actually beat Cresselia you have to use one of a very select few Pokemon on your team, and this hugely restricts team building. Anyone who knows what they are doing with Cresselia will be able to wall 95% of the tier without fail, slowly wear them down and cripple them, and even when one of it's counters are brought in you can quite easily make a switch into Poliwrath and phaze them out, which also perfectly counters every single mon that you listed. It honestly doesn't matter all that much if sneasel can counter cress, as you can make an easy switch into wrath, slowly racking up hazard damage.

    There really is very few options you have to dealing with Cresselia+Poliwrath stall. SD Gallade with Night Slash, Crotomb and RestTalk Escavalier are the only things that come to mind that can actually beat this core, and maybe a few niche options like Tbolt absol. This means that anyone not running these pokes is going to have to outplay the opponent to even have a chance of winning.

    The fact that it walls such a ridiculous number of Pokemon, and can actually break through some of it's counters with a single move change(e.g. HP Fire or Toxic over Calm Mind or Thunder Wave), and it's ability to sweep with such ridiculous ease with a Calm Mind set unless the opponent is carrying a very specific counter to Cresselia makes Cresselia bar none the most broken mon in the tier. When a Pokemon is able to actually beat it's counters with a single move change and wall the rest of the tier, you know something is wrong.
  15. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Messages:
    7,616
    I've had enough of this crap

    Pokemon and teams specific goal requires them to beat Cresselia, usually by putting two or more Pokemon whose purpose is largely, at least in part, to defeat Cresselia. If they don't, they lose. This is part of overcentralization.

    Secondly, learn your facts. Cresselia did not just drop, it has officially been in the tier since November 24th and it has been allowed on the ladder since October 20th. This is ample time for the metagame to adapt.

    It is true that Glaceon can 2HKO Cress. However, it needs Rocks up to accomplish this feat. Furthermore, Glaceon is a 130 base Special Attack Pokemon wearing Choice SPecs using a STABed 120 Base Power Attack. If it couldn't 2HKO just about anything that would be pretty pathetic. Cherrypicking one of the strongest attackers in the tier using its most powerful set and BARELY 2HKOing does not support your case.

    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs 252 HP/116 SpDef Cresselia (+SpDef) : 43.92% - 51.58%
    2-3 hits to KO

    Assuming you are talking about Cress's counters and what it can do, let's look at Cresselia's common counters. Drapion, Escavalier, Spiritomb, Durant, Mandibuzz and Crawdaunt are the only Cresselia counters that received above 60th, or above 2.8% usage in the month of November. For the sake of argument we'll include weaker checks such as Scolipede, Scyther, and your two choices Skuntank and Sneasel. For the record, the latter two are never used, as evidenced by:

    | 154 | Skuntank | 168 | 0.272% | 137 | 0.270% |
    | 146 | Sneasel | 193 | 0.313% | 153 | 0.301% |

    Now let's assume that Cresselia has obtained a position against something it forces out, and the above Pokemon must now switch in. Cresselia has access to Calm Mind, Psychic, Thunder Wave, Moon light and Hidden Power Fire; as both of these movesets are common enough to be likely possibilities. Let us also assume that Cresselia has Poliwrath as a teammate, as almost every Cress team should carry them as a combo. Stealth Rock is assumed to be up for both sides, and 1 Spikes layer may or may not be up for Cresselia team. These are common battle conditions when using Cress.

    Drapion: If early game, or if its counters are still alive such as now, Cresselia will Thunder Wave on the switch. Congrats, you now have a paralyzed and completely useless Drapion on your hands. If running HP Fire, Cresslia, does 18-21% and can thus slowly wear down Drapion. Furthermore, the only Drapion that can possibly 2HKO Cresselia is Choice Band Drapion which conveniently is lacks recovery. Even worse is the fact that Drapion cannot beat Poliwrath, who will switch in for free, shuffle your team and rack of entry hazard damage, including on your Drapion who will die fairly quickly considering its lack of recovery. Therefore, as a whole, Drapion cannot beat Cresselia.

    252 Atk Choice Band Drapion Crunch vs 252 HP/252 Def Cresselia (+Def) : 43.92% - 52.03%
    0 SpAtk Cresselia Hidden Power Fire vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Drapion: 18.15% - 21.35%

    Escavalier: Escavalier is a stronger check to Cresselia, as it does not care much about paralysis, and can threaten to OHKO Cresselia outright with Megahorn. However, it falls into the same boat as Drapion in that it cannot beat Poliwrath, and is susceptible to entry hazards. It likewise will be worn down and defeated. Should Cresselia carry HP Fire:

    Against Choice Band Escava: 0 SpAtk Cresselia Hidden Power Fire vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Escavalier: 45.35% - 53.49%, Escavalier is always 2HKOd after Rocks
    Against Specially Defensive Escavalier: 0 SpAtk Cresselia Hidden Power Fire vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Escavalier: 36.05% - 43.02%; always 3HKOd

    As a result, Escavalier cannot beat Cresselia easily, and Cresselia is capable of defeating Escava. There is one set upon which Escavalier can commit itself to a pure Cresselia counter, Specially Defensive RestTalk Escava which will force Cresselia out, but this runs into the same problem of not being able to beat Poliwrath, being forced out and failing to heal. Therefore, Escavalier must overcentralize to guarantee a win against Cresselia, but cannot win over the course of a match.

    Spiritomb: Spiritomb I maintain is the only true Cresselia counter. Not because of its Choice Band or Blackglasses sets, because these are susceptible to entry hazards and status, especially Scald burns, but because of its Calm Mind RestTalk set which will always defeat Cresselia, albeit requiring a Critical hit after Calm Minds. It also cannot be phazed by Poliwrath and will defeat that part of the core. Therefore, CroSpiritomb is a true counter to Cresselia, but other variants are not.

    0 SpAtk Spiritomb Dark Pulse vs 252 HP/116 SpDef Cresselia (+SpDef) : 24.32% - 29.05% (+6 Critical OHKO)

    Mandibuzz: This will beat Cresselia one-on-one between Taunt and Whirlwind. That said Mandibuzz is universally regarded to be terrible, particularly with the advent of Hail. Mandibuzz is a Cresselia counter should it avoid Toxic, but is terrible outside of that purpose.

    Crawdaunt: Crawdaunt is paralysis susceptible, hazard susceptible and is completely countered by Poliwrath. Crawdaunt is a terrible Cresselia counter.

    Durant: See Crawdaunt, except Durant can do a fair amount to Poliwrath before being KOd/phazed. Durant is a mediocre/average Cresselia counter.

    Scolipede/Scyther: If either gets paralyzed they are now screwed. Both are weak to Stealth Rocks, Scyther devastatingly so. Some damage calcs:

    0 SpAtk Cresselia Psychic vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Scolipede: 79.31% - 94.25%
    2 hits to KO

    If Cresslia Thunder Waves or Psychics on the switch, Scolipede dies.

    0 SpAtk Cresselia Psychic vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Scyther: 33.1% - 38.79%
    3-4 hits to KO

    Cresselia will 2HKO Scyther, leading to a similar situation as above. In the worst case scenario Scyther fails to OHKO Cress after one round of Leftovers as shown by:

    252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scyther (+Atk) Bug Bite vs 252 HP/140 Def Cresselia: 73.65% - 87.16%

    Therefore, Scyther and Scolipede are very poor Cresselia counters/checks.

    And now we reach your two favourites, Sneasel and Skuntank. Ignoring the fact they have a combined 0.6% usage in RU, both of them are terrible choices to take on Cress.

    1. Both are completely countered by Poliwrath. Have fun with that one!
    2. Sneasel is crippled by Thunder Wave and destroyed by Hidden Power Fire
      0 SpAtk Cresselia Hidden Power Fire vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Sneasel: 40.64% - 47.81%
    3. Skuntank is impeded by Thunder Wave and worn down by Hidden Power Fire
      0 SpAtk Cresselia Hidden Power Fire vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Skuntank: 14.63% - 17.32%
    4. Both are weak to entry hazards, Sneasel hilariously so
      Sneasel takes 25-50% from entry hazards guaranteeing a 2HKO. Skuntank takes 12.5-27.5% from entry hazards, 12-25 being common, meaning that after a few switch ins it can no longer beat Cress
    5. Neither of their Pursuits are strong enough to bother Cress

      Skuntank vs a switching Cress: 252 Atk Choice Band Skuntank (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252 HP/140 Def Cresselia: 58.78% - 69.59%
      Vs a Cress that stays in: 29.39-34.79

      Sneasel vs a switching Cress: 252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252 HP/140 Def Cresselia: 59.46% - 70.27%
      Vs a Cress that stays in: 29.73-35.13

      Cress dgaf about either of the Pursuits, not to mention the numerous Pokemon it can switch in n and heal should it get tagged with a strong attack.

      Skuntank is therefore a mediocre Cress counter, and Sneasel is a horrible one.

    In regards to your mention of playing RU every day, I took the liberty of looking you up on Pokemon Showdown.
    [​IMG]
    http://imgur.com/Oxemd
    You seem to play a lot, but you sure don't do very well. This leads me to question the validity of statements you make regarding a Pokemon's effectiveness.

    I've addressed most of this already, so I'll simply state that Absol is very prone to getting paralyzed by Cresselia, is susceptible to entry hazards, and it utterly destroyed by Poliwrath's Circle Throw. Pinsir is a rarely seen Pokemon, can lose to to Poliwrath and is significantly hazard weak. Assuming the best case scenario for you, where Cress switches out while you Sub and Poliwrath breas your Sub while you SD:

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Pinsir Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Poliwrath (+Def) : 64.06% - 75.26%

    Pinsir has now taken 60% damage from SR, LO and Sub, POliwrath responds with either:

    0 SpAtk Poliwrath Scald vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Pinsir: 32.1% - 38.01%
    3-4 hits to KO
    Meaning you die as of your next attack without beating Cress or:

    0 Atk Poliwrath Circle Throw vs 0 HP/0 Def Pinsir: 10.33% - 12.18%
    9-10 hits to KO

    Meaning you die the next time you switch in and attack once, this time without your boosts, and also without beating Cress. Assuming you've switched in against Cress:

    252 Atk Life Orb Pinsir X-Scissor vs 252 HP/140 Def Cresselia: 57.43% - 67.57%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    Meaning Cress finishes you off if you attack or you kill yourself by attacking, possibly as it Moonlights the damage away.

    EDIT: Actually after the Close Combat Pinsir is at -1/-1 defenses meaning that whatever Pinsir gets hit with, it's dead, without touching Cress

    Some final points: Cress being an S rank Pokemon does mean its amazing, Cress commands S rank BECAUSE its amazing. LC and RU are nothing alike. Literally nothing. Do not use them as a comparison.

    I have no designs as to whether these Pokemon are viable or not. Skuntank can be argued for being outclassed by Drapion but may be usable, Sneasel I am actually encouraged has a niche in RU.

    What is far more relevant is that both suck at beating Cress.

    The first statement has been proven untrue: 252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Punishment vs 252 HP/140 Def Cresselia: 67.57% - 79.73% this being vs +1/+1 Cresselia.

    You also claim that Cresselia can't run all its moves, but then contradict yourself by switching between Choice Band Sneasel and Sub Sneasel, as well as 4 dark move Skuntank and Sub Skuntank among others. This is inherently flawed reasoning I hope you see.

    Regarding this line:
    What does Cresselia care if it has to switch and lose its boosts? It can set up against 90% of the tier without fail anyway. Furthermore, why is Cresselia setting up if its checks/counters aren't gone/weakened in the first place?

    Your arguments are entirely based on circumstantial evidence from playing against poor players. Your terrible ladder rating supports the concept that the majority of your battles have been against the dregs of the ladder.

    Cresselia with Calm Mind beats SubSetup mons, Cresselia without Calm Mind isn't designed to. Once again, you have cherrypicked minute details to provide a potentially favourable situation without looking at the entire picture of Cress beating these Pokemon the majority of the time. For instance, you claim that SubSetup automatically wins against Cress. Pray tell, what coverage moves are we now giving up?

    If you used SubSD Crawdaunt you autolose to Poliwrath. Gallade? Autolose to Spiritomb. Pinsir? Loses to Poliwrath as previously shown. Feraligatr? Loses to Poliwrath. Kabutops? Poliwrath. Drapion? Poliwrath. Escavalier? Aside from the poor concept of the set, Poliwrath. Bouffalant? Possibly the only good example of this, Cresselia's common teammates do not automatically beat it.

    Consulting the usage stats, those are the only Pokemon who run SubSD. Almost all of them will lose.

    Once again you refer to flawed arguments and conflicting logic. RU IS NOT LC! They are not comparable! Cresselia doesn't hate 4MSS, each of its sets is designed to fulfill its own purpose on top of walling 90% of the tier! One is designed to beat its counters. Another is designed to sweep! The most common provides para support for its teammates and is capable of sweeping! Not every Cress set is designed to sweep! But every Cress set walls 90% of the tier whether its designed to sweep or not.

    Finally, let's look at these CM users.

    Murkow: | 163 | Murkrow | 153 | 0.248% | 121 | 0.238% |
    Calm Mind 5.882%
    Calm Mind Murkow was used in exactly 9 battles in the month of November. I'm not going to comment further.

    Misdreavus: I grant that this one saw a little bit of usage, approximately 0.36% overall. Its most common set however is defensive, and it will lose to any normal type special wall Cress is paired with.

    Duosion: 252 +6 SpAtk Duosion Psychic vs 252 HP/112 SpDef Cresselia (+SpDef) : 42.57% - 50.23%

    Duosion only ever wins against Cress if it gets a max damage roll crit.

    0 +6 SpAtk Cresselia Psychic vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Eviolite Duosion: 45.81% - 54.19%

    Cress has a larger window. Essentially, Duosion ties with Cress but will lose most of the time 1v1.



    To conclude this ridiculously long post: your arguments are bad, and you should feel bad. Your posts, aside from being grammatically incomprehensible are filled with fallacy, flawed logic, circumstance and conjecture. Your poor ladder record questions the validity of every statement you've made.

    Please don't post again in regards to Cresselia without some logical reasoning to support your arguments.
  16. superbadd

    superbadd

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Messages:
    351
    Texas- Specially defensive drapion is a pretty hard counter to cress. It can taunt cress and prevent it form using T-wave, then wear it down with repeated crunches. CB tomb is also pretty good it can trick cresselia making it useless or it can pursuit trap it if it's fleeing. I've found that anything that's faster than cress and can taunt it while also being able to "tank" it's piss weak attacks is a good counter. Cress is pretty much a chew toy for whimsicott, who can taunt and regain copious amounts of HP with leech seed. Cresselia imo is fine. I've found that you need one of these things on your team or you'll lose to cresselia, a bulky taunter, something that can hit cresselia super effectively, or wear it down with toxic/cripple it with trick. Most teams have these things covered by default, so idk. Maybe it's just me, but I personally don't see anything wrong with cress. All of my teams are more than capable of taking her out.
  17. Nails

    Nails EAST 2014
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,588
    cress can't hit hard and a decent amount of things can set up on it and threaten the opponent's team. be more creative with the pokes you're using to break it.

    reading the full post now and will edit with full comments. tbh i should read through the thread anyways. check this space later.
  18. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Messages:
    651
    Superbadd, all those Pokemon need to switch into Cresselia. Odds are that Thunder Wave is going to be going their way, so that Speed benefit is now lost. Liepard is a unique check to Cresselia. Limber prevent Thunder Wave from doing anything, and Dark allows her to get past Psychic. The bad bulk is the feline's ultimate weakness, as Hidden Power Fire will slowly wear it down.
  19. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Messages:
    4,472
    stop trying to counter Cresselia with offensive mons, there's your problem right there - very few can wear her down before she beats them and even fewer like getting paralysed. Nasty Plot Slowking dances all over Cresselia, and a simple Toxic Slowking hard walls any Cress that lacks Sub or a Toxic of its own. Ferroseed gets risk-free Spikes on any version that doesn't use Calm Mind, a decently bulky Pokemon like Munchlax, Mandibuzz or Steelix using Toxic + phazing move can deal with her in all situations sans last Poke Sub Cres. A decently sturdy Pokemon using Substitute and without a weakness to her coverage moves can use her as set up bait - Jynx, for example, cannot have her Subs broken by any Cress that lacks a SE Hidden Power and even then it can just use Lovely Kiss. Murkrow can just Perish trap her for the gg, there is loads of stuff really but you are going to struggle if you're using a bunch of fast, frail set up mons and if you keep giving her free switch-ins because she has been thriving against that sort of team for years now. and stop thinking that hitting her super-effectively is some sort of holy grail, she isn't THAT inconvenienced by Dark or Ghost types on account of their weak STABs - Escavalier on the other hand...there's a full stop right there unless she's using HP Fire which has sone pretty unimpressive damage output against escavalier depending on her SpA investment (even at max SpA and +1 Escavalier survives the hit 2/3 of the time)
  20. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    165
    Lol?Duosion and others have recovery moves wich will ALWAYS stall out moonlight so duosion can repeatedly take the attacks and fire back some and since Duosion is commenly used on hail, moonlight becomes balls, and more on 4MSS especialy on CMCress you seem to say CM+T-wave and since you NEED moonlight to not die from repeated assults you only have one slot left so psychic is obvious and then any dark poke with sub wins vs cress since you need to switch and evrey time , you keep saying "oh yeah cress wrath beats evrey counter" your act like the counter user cant switch but you can wich is clearly BS.Also your argument is centerd around usage,and what stops me from using them? If you are simply not using one of your
    many,many options agianst a S rank poke, you deserve to lose to cress. Also I dont play "hard and ladder hard" since I want pokemon to still be fun while acting as a competitive hobee and I also play NU wayyy more so I only play RU for like 45 min. ?DUOSION: Duosion nearly always carees Psyshock especialy on the CM set, also Murkrow is THE BEST COUNTER to cress since it can sub or taunt it and either set up with CM and then kill with
    dark pulse or just wear it down with BB+ SP combo. You simply ignore evrey one of cress'es flaws and spouting out lies like "cress walls 90% of the tier".Also we are saying THESE ARE COUNTERS FOR CRESSELIA NOT POLIWRATH SO please stfu about that.Not trying to be a ass just saying your faults.
  21. hilarious

    hilarious

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    559
    two wins out of ten games what a boss win ratio

    As someone who didn't play RU for months until Cresselia became legal (and incidentally i have 6 wins to 1 loss under french fries) I can say if Cresselia isn't broken then it is extraordinarily effective in countering most offensive threats. I made some shoddy stall team to play with and the only reason it worked was because Cresselia countered so many threats. I knew absoultely nothing about RU when I made my stall team and you guys know I am sure stall is all about countering threats so knowledge of what you need to counter is pretty important but because Cresselia allowed me to mindlessly counter basically everything that didn't have a super effective move against it it allowed me to make a mindless, if not mediocre, defensive team.
  22. Vaz

    Vaz

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    Messages:
    585
    Ditto.
  23. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2009
    Messages:
    932
    Just as a reminder, it's less than a week before the screenshots will be taken! Furthermore, Oglemi and I have decided that the suspects for this round will be Snow Warning and Cresselia, so get laddering and posting if you want to vote on them!
  24. Herracroos32

    Herracroos32

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2012
    Messages:
    2
    I dont really think anything will get banned this round imo, Creselia can be dealt with and Snow Warning is just another playstyle. Attention people: Just because cress makes stall viable dosent mean it breaks RU , A old set discoverd by a freind of mine:"Crotei", Kind of shits on it as it can CM so Cresses attacks wont do shit and fire off repeated lava plumes until burn or good damage. And then RestTalk, and pressure stall until cress goes down. The set is inspired by Crocune from UU and actualy does well,especialy in a hail/cress meta I encourage you to try it out

    CroTei Set (open)
    Entei @ Leftovers/Flame Plate
    Trait: Pressure
    252 HP/248 Def/8 SpA
    Bold Nature
    Moves:
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Calm Mind
    - Lava Plume
  25. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast I'm John Morgan of Morgan and Morgan
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a SPL Winner
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,349
    I've been playing for less than two days (9 and 3, not bad for just starting) and already I can see that Cresselia is over-centralizing as hell. If I lose Durant and Lilligant (or if Sleep Clause is already active) I pretty much lose the game, since nothing I've seen can hit Cresselia particularly hard (I've seen plenty of Drapion and a couple Scyther, but Thunder Wave fucks them up).
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)