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np: RU Stage 13 - All I want for Christmas - is a balanced tier

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by SilentVerse, Dec 4, 2012.

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  1. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    I agree with this right here. Cresselia is very broken in RU-if you're not carrying an offensive powerhouse like Absol or Escavalier to face it, you're bound to lose. And Poliwrath deals with anything that attempts to counter Cress (Unless the amazing Absol is running T-Bolt, which he almost never will). I run both Absol and Escavalier just to face Cress and I STILL lose if I don't predict. Not to mention T-Wave is annoying as hell. And it walls the rest of the tier. Very overcentralizing.

    Speaking of which, once the voting is done, are we reinstating the Standard RU Ladder?
  2. Meru

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    This. Can someone explain to me why it's fair that hyper offensive pokemon that invalidate stall are allowed to run rampant (re: pretty much every other tier). However, for (arguably) the first time in tiering history, there is a defensive pokemon that "invalidates" hyper offense, and that is a bannable aspect? What makes it so much more acceptable to have a team of 6 defensive powerhouses be useless than a team of 6 offensive powerhouses? Curious if there's actual reasoning behind it.
  3. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    Because, pre-Nidoqueen at least, RU stall was the most viable stall archetype out of any of the tiers? It dominated the ladder immediately prior to Nidoqueen's drop. Then Nidoqueen destroyed most forms of stall and in case you hadn't noticed, which you likely didn't due to likely not playing the tier, Nidoqueen was a recent suspect. Cresselia invalidates any form of offensive with such ease, without having to try particularly hard. That on top of having the ability to tweak her moveset to beat certain checks or counters makes her really frigging good.

    Essentially, Cresselia doesn't just beat a lot of Pokemon, it beats an entire playstyle, bar a small, select group of Pokemon. That's broken in my books, from a defensive perspective.

    Offensive suspects are obviously judged much differently.


    EDIT: Don't like quotes like this but it's necessary this time I think. Plus I'm lazy/busy atm


    Sorry for that ugly thing but just wanted to address a few things that didn't paint an entirely accurate picture.
  4. Limitless

    Limitless Success is the best revenge.
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    From what I've seen so far, it seems like both Cresselia and Nidoqueen are too strong for the tier. Both are able to be countered and dealt with, but at the cost of certain playstyles and Pokemon. I always thought that Genesect was uber because it countered heavy offensive teams in OU. It countered a complete playstyle. Essentially, Nidoqueen does the same exact thing here with stall.

    Of course, you can say that any wall breaker can deal with stall, but it's simply not the case. It's not to the same degree. Until stall can think up a viable way of countering Nidoqueen, I don't see it lasting long in the tier.

    Cresselia is a bit odd to me, simply because it isn't really used much when I play. I've seen it used good and bad. When it's bad, it pretty much just sits on the team. But even then, it pretty much bones heavy offense. Again, just because you can counter a Pokemon doesn't mean that it should be allowed in the tier. It completely takes a playstyle out of viability, and can do a hell of a lot more.
  5. tehy

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    Yeah, i noticed this a month or so back. The theoretical excuse is that a lot of those ridiculous, sheer-strength pokemon have checks, while the HO destroyers have counters and waaaah our momentums all gone dx. The prototypical examples are up in ou, with kyurem-B and excadrill.

    The reason is really that most people prefer to run offensive teams, and thus the banning shifts that way. It would've happened much earlier, but earlier generations were much stallier than this one is.

    As for a pokemon invalidating an entire playstyle... *shrugs* That might be true, but i'm going to ask:Would this even be an issue if everyone loved stall teams and loved playing them?
  6. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    Yes? Because Cresselia shits on absolutely fucking everything. Your opinions on Nidoqueen aside (as, you know, it was suspected on already), Cresselia beats basically RU - 5 Pokemon. If you play Cresselia well, it will not die, and there's nothing your opponent can do about it. The only times your Cress dies is if you were dumb, didn't keep it healthy enough, or for some reason your opponent keeps it in on a Megahorn. I think badly played Cresselia are influencing some of our opinions here...keep in mind you're not going to actually nail that Cresselia with an Escavalier Megahorn, and that Pursuit does not do that much to a switching out Cresselia...and then Pursuit is set up on.

    I'm not bringing back up my arguments for Nidoqueen. All I can say is, if it was found not broken before in the last suspect round, then it's definitely not broken now, especially with Hail bringing a fuck ton of Nidoqueen checks into the limelight.
  7. TLCJR4LIFE

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    I disagree as the powerful choice banders can hit Cresselia hard like the CB Emboar with the Flare Blitz.

    Zweilous is also a powerful counter against Cresselia with Crunch it does a 2HKO.

    A Grass Gem Leaf Storm from Sceptile is very underrated as it does a OHKO after rocks and spikes.


    Also hail stops Moonlight from helping it recover efficiently.
  8. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    OH SHIT, IT'S TLC AND HIS RANDOM QUOTES AGAIN!

    That aside, I disagree with you. Emboar can wear it down but Psychic is death knell for it. Poliwrath, one of the common allies to Cress also beats it

    Nobody uses Zweilous, and it's pretty mediocre outside of OHKOing Cress. And Poliwrath can endure a Crunch pretty well. And again, it's never ever used.

    Grass Gem Leaf Storm Sceptile...just lol. You're losing firepower after that one hit. So it's not worth it.

    And Hail, well, Cress still walls everything else, so yeah.

    So those are my arguments
  9. Texas Cloverleaf

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    Cress is KOd after Spikes? You mean those things Cress is immune to?
  10. Level 51

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    [12:02] <Level-51> "A Grass Gem Leaf Storm from Sceptile is very underrated as it does a OHKO after rocks and spikes."
    [12:03] <Level-51> >spikes
    [12:03] <TheMantyke> you better have some gravity support

    252 Atk Hustle Zweilous Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 186-222 (41.89 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    If I recall correctly, Zweilous has the second-strongest Crunch in the game? And it can't even 2HKO without a CB if Cress has lefties? :|

    Granted, sometimes (most of the time?) people run 252/4/252+ Cress, for reasons inexplicable. This means that LO Entei can neatly 2HKO with a Flare Blitz after Hail, and Escavalier has a 85% chance of OHKOing Cress (thanks to Megahorn's lovely accuracy). However, it is not always easy to get a clean switch-in to Cress; if, as blarajan said, it is played correctly, Cress is almost impossible to kill endgame if your checks are all out (which they can easily be if you swap them into Cress, get paralyzed, get killed by the opponent's switch-in, etc etc). In addition to this, Stealth Rocks very handily deal massive damage to most Hail teams, which are possibly the best kinds of teams for keeping Cresselia in check (based on my limited experience :/) correct me if I'm wrong about any of this though
  11. for54years

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    Some thoughts: 1)Sunny Day Cress is a pretty good answer to hail. 2)Escavalier is a good answer to her, and isn't dead weight otherwise - I've seen a lot of Druddigon on the ladder in the last week. 3)Cresselia is fun to play with in RU, and so adaptable, to the point that there is no reason not to have her on your team.

    I have my opinion about Cresselia - too strong for RU. I'm interested to hear what the voters think.
  12. Yonko7

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    Cresselia is simply too strong for everything. Although she fits in due to Nidoqueen making everything really offensive. I built a Stall team, and with her on the team I have a lot of room to have other Pokemon and other utilities like Clerics and Perish Song user, which would otherwise not be used as much. On the positive side, slower teams now have a break, as their heavenly duck is here to help them, too bad it helps them too much. Right now Hail isn't too bad, and Cresselia is slightly less annoying due to Moonlight healing 25%. In the end, saying goodbye to both Nidoqueen and Cresselia will balance everything out.
  13. Limitless

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    I don't really think hail teams are the best suited for taking out Cresselia. The only things it can possibly do on a typical hail team are trick a choice item on it or deal heavy damage with Choice Specs Glaceon. Both of those ways of dealing with Cresselia are sidestepped by a smart player. Additionally, Cresselia can also carry Sunny Day, which just ruins the entire hail team edge anyways.
  14. Strategywin

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    sunny day hp fire 6-0s escavahail, which is pretty common.

    and yes, i agree to ban. magneton beats durant without superpower, and what else beats cress?
  15. Level 51

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    4 SpA Cresselia Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Escavalier in sun: 232-276 (67.63 - 80.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    I don't see how that beats Escavalier??

    Actually, talking about Escavalier, I've found that a SubSD set actually works pretty well:

    Escavalier @ Leftovers
    Trait: Swarm / Overcoat (for hail)
    EVs: 252 Atk / 248 HP / 8 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Iron Head
    - Megahorn
    - Swords Dance
    - Substitute

    The main advantage this set has over other Escavaliers is that it can actually beat the standard RestTalk Poliwrath, as Poliwrath is unable to break Esca's sub in one hit. Thus, it is extremely easy to get up to +6 and get rid of Poliwrath with a Sub up (if your opponent is stupid enough to stay in >_>); furthermore, your HP will likely have gone below 33%, hence activating the Swarm boost. The only thing you may need to be careful about is the initial 30% chance of a burn from Scald; any opinions on this?
  16. DittoCrow

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    It's pretty clear that hail is not broken at the moment, at least in my opinion. I originally thought that having one dominant weather would be broken and over-centralizing. In reality, hail isn't as good as most people thought. Snover is usually dead weight overall, and the only Pokemon who got buffs from hail just gained a 100% accurate Blizzard or can heal through Ice Body, both of which aren't too big of a deal. Slapping something simple, such as Cryogonal, Entei, Slowking, or Escavalier, on your team will take care of Blizzard users, not to mention that they're even easier to take down due to being weak to Stealth Rock. Things like StallRein were thought to be huge threats, but so many threats like the aforementioned Escavalier, most Steel-types, and even Poliwrath handle it. The biggest threat in hail would have to be Rotom-F because of its great coverage and decent Speed. However, even it is dealt with fairly easily, as it is still outsped by Pokemon such as Entei and walled by others such as Cryogonal, Lanturn, and Clefable. If it runs a Choice item, it will lose the ability to switch moves which makes Rotom-F much less threatening. Hail seems fine in RU right now.
  17. Strategywin

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    252+ SpA Cresselia Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Escavalier in sun: 336-396 (97.95 - 115.45%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
    guaranteed after rocks, even with timid for speedy set

    and sunnyday lunar dance cress + cb entei = destruction. Entei about to die after recoil? lunar it up after setting up sun, flare blitz every thing!

    and dont use that set. sd escavalier is ovverrated. I only believe in banded.
  18. Limitless

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    I don't think Snover gets enough credit. Sure, against stall teams or heavy balance, it isn't going to do much. However, against almost any offensive team, it will get one kill or at least heavily damage another. To say that it is complete deadweight is a little over-dramatic. If we assume the opponent is using offense, the lead is either gonna get Stealth Rocks or break your sash. In either scenario, it's not horrible for Snover. It actually did something.

    Let's also not forget that even if you bring in something like Entei on Snover, it's still getting damage in on something that would otherwise wall a Blizzard spam sweep. Just because you're getting walled does not mean that Snover's one or two Blizzard attacks were pointless. In addition to being a weather starter, it's also great at breaking opposing Pokemon that resist ice attacks.
  19. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Limitless summed up my Snover thoughts; it's not a great mon itself, but it's certainly not playing 5-6 like some folks claim. It handily breaks common leads like Nidoqueen and Aero, and even Ice resists switching in won't enjoy eating 2 Blizzards, an Ice Shard, and 3 turns of hail damage. It can soften up teams and leave them more vulnerable to Blizzspam, but I don't see it as an overpowered strategy at this time.

    I don't see Nidoqueen as broken in this meta either. Blizzspam does her in, the plethora of bulky Psychic-types do her in, and faster offensive threats like Sceptile do her in. She's still a dominant, powerful force in the meta, but Snover's presence has put an extra burden on her that keeps her in line.

    And finally, there's Cress v.v

    Cress completely owns this metagame. If you aren't carrying at least 2 checks, you'll get wrecked by at least one of her sets. Even then, nothing is really countering her. She walls an impressive array of Pokemon, but she's not just a sitting duck in the process. She spreads paralysis, shuts down hail with Sunny Day, bulks up teammates with dual screens, or just sets up for a sweep of her own.

    I love Cress, she's won me many a game that I should've lost, but damn, this thing is an unhealthy presence in the meta right now.
  20. Molk

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    Im going to have to agree with Dittocrow, hail doesnt look broken to me at the moment, sure its a pretty cool playstyle that brings some powerful options to the table, but it suffers from some crippling flaws, most notable of which is having to run a mediocre pokemon for the playstyle to work at all (mediocre, not useles, sash snover is a cool little dude). Hail also struggles with the fact that you often have to stack up on Ice-types like Rotom-F and Glaceon, which while powerful, are burdened with weaknesses to common moves such as fire blast, stealth rock, drain punch, close combat, and iron head. Thanks to these common weaknesses hail teams often struggle with common Pokemon such as Durant, Escavalier, Entei, Emboar, and Gallade (SubBU can actually beat many common hail cores by itself), who can break through the hail abusers with little trouble. Slowking is a great choice for a bulky pivot on hail teams, and helps to alleviate the problems that ice types have with its resistances to fire, fighting, and steel, as well as its ability to hit Rock-types sure effectively, and imo slowking is a requirement on any hail team because of this. My current verdict on hail is this: hail may be a cool and somewhat powerful playstyle, but suffers from crippling flaws that prevent it from performing to its full potential, and therefore should stay in the tier.

    Sorry if this post makes little to no sense, i woke up really early this morning and im quite tired x_x, so please bear with me.

    Show Hide
    I also take back everything i said about cress not being broken, that thing is bullshit ;_;, it just took some time to find the dangerous sets fsr.
  21. Hot N Cold

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    I have to agree with a lot of you guys.

    [​IMG]

    I quote this post from Texas, because it summarizes all about Cresselia. She has an inmense bulk, if you are running an offensive team you must ensure that most of your team is able to beat her directly with a super effective attack, because she can take everything excepting this super effective attacks. Another form to beat Cresselia is with Toxic but this only work in 1vs1 because RU has a bunch of good clerics ( Clefable / Lanturn / Roselia / other NU mons like Misdreavus, Altaria or Miltank) and in the practise this isnt very effective against Cresselia and also she can run Rest or Substitute. New sets to beat different checks of Cresselia, Hidden Power Fire to beat Steel types mainly Escavalier and Durant and also this move help in Calm Mind wars while T-wave work worst. Toxic work really very well against more bulky teams and mainly if you're running Cresselia on a defensive team, for example Toxic can handle with Spiritomb except with Rest versions (most crotomb) only real counter of Cresselia for sure that can beat any set and can switch safely all day, like there's no tomorrow. Finally, now with Hail a lot of people think that just by spamming Blizzard they will beat Cresselia because of the nerf of Moonlight, i was using a set on Cresselia with Sunny Day / Calm Mind / Psychic / Moonlight this smash this hail teams while is a solid idea Sunny Day to cancel Hail and also help a bit to Moonlight (on my team the rest too apreciated Sunny Day) this isnt a excuse to look Cresselia from other different form.
    Definitely Cresselia is THE wall that can constantly take attacks from the opponent, she just only needs a few support like solid physical walls like Poliwrath or Qwiflish and Cleric, while on offensive teams is an awesome pivot with Screens, Lunar Dance, help with paralysis support or if your opponent is just weak to Cresselia then wrecked with a bulky CM set.

    [​IMG]
    On the other hand, about Snow Warning has a big potential but usually has handicap is because Snover is an awful pokemon, can be useful in some battles but none should use this mon out-snow warning because is bad, the mons that actually take advantage from hail are usually weak to Stealth Rock and with similar weaknesses then is more difficult to abuse of Hail in the same team because your team should be very weak against the same mons and just smashed, not broken at all.
  22. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Lol stupid question, but are we reinstating the standard RU Ladder after today?

    Anyways, I've said my argument on Cresselia. It's an unhealthy presence in this meta who is overcentralizing and overpowered.

    As for Snow Warning, it's fine as is. It has made no impact on this meta, and to be honest, the mighty Snover is terrible. Sure, Hail has super powerhouses like Rotom-F and Glaceon, and annoying stally mons like Walrein and Mandibuzz (and of course, the Endeavor Solosis and Duosion), its dependence on the mighty Snover is simply the biggest crutch to hail. Snover is a big liability on the team, and most hail teams struggle with Fighting-types and Stealth Rock. It's fine in RU.
  23. Worldtour

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    Cresselia is definently insanely overcentralizing. It's gotten to the point where I have to run shaky checks to the thing just because they have a shot at defeating Cresselia. Taunt + Swords Dance Drapion, Choice Band Escavalier, and some other Bug or Dark-type Pokemon, which are Pokemon that I personally would not use if Cresselia was not in the tier. There is no reason why it should defeat Escavalier one on one. Thanks to Cresselia, I've practically gone to the point in which I've stopped using Fighting-types, Mixed Attackers, Niqoqueen, and other things just because if I lose my Cresselia checks then I lose since it just straight up walls my entire team and just wears it down or destroys it with Thunder Wave so then its teammates can prey on me. It is crazy to get swept by a wall, but it happens so often it isn't even funny.

    Hail is fine as it is, and it seems like everyone agrees.

    Maybe (Probably) it is the madness of Cresselia, but I think Nidoqueen is starting to fit in the tier a bit better and may not be broken. It has a pretty good bulk, but there are a lot of Pokemon that can do a lot of damage to it. Assuming a Life Orb, Kabutops can OHKO with Waterfall, Feraligatr can do it, Sceptile usually can with Leaf Storm (81.25% of the time after rocks), and some other things can do some massive damage. It is powerful as hell, but its speed is also a flaw - it may take a sacrifice of a Pokemon to take it down, and it 2HKOs some special walls with its brutal moves, but its speed makes it a little easy to outspeed and kill. Some Pokemon like Manectric are practically useless agaisnt it, but it can be taken down by taking advantage of resistances or immunities (Nidoqueen is somewhat predicatable) and then hitting it hard, maybe doing it a few times. The only real problem with this is the opponent may see your moves and Nidoqueen pretty much has an answer to everything (except Cresselia, that broken mofo), but I don't think it is banworthy.
  24. Yonko7

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    I have the inkling that Hail is going to be much more dangerous later on, once people start to really take advantage of it. Last round, some voters (me included) thought that Cresselia wasn't too bad, but once people started taking advantage of all her duckly attributes, that's when she became dangerous.

    Something that just hit me is that Hail is going to make defensive / semi- / Stall teams much harder to create, and the general lack of bulky Pokemon in the tier (excluding Cresselia) makes life even harder. The hail damage cancels out the Leftovers, and makes it easier to wear the walls down. I think this side-effect is really important, because then it causes the tier to be more offensive, similar to what Nidoqueen did, although probably not to that extreme. The direct effect of Hail, itself, isn't all that dangerous, it's the side-effects that are. Of the defensive Pokemon, the one that doesn't care if Clefable and Walrein, thanks to Magic Guard and Ice-typing, respectively. All the others generate chip damage. Now the question is to what extent is this going to happen, probably less than Nidoqueen, but nevertheless at least some. Do we want a balanced metagame? Sure why not. Cresselia is overcentralizing in that she can be half a Stall team herself. I think its important for people to think down the road, and see all the effects of Hail. Blizzard will be more common. Other weathers to cancel Hail. Defensive Pokemon that go more offensive due to Leftovers being canceled out. There's probably more, but I'm only one person. Something for people to think about.
  25. Level 51

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    Why on earth would you run 252 EVs on Cresselia? That's not what Cresselia is for. The 252 EVs you're putting in its SpA take away from its defenses, which are way more important. Besides, Sunny Day is really only good for countering Hail in my opinion, and if Hail isn't even that common during the Suspect Test, how good can it be in regular play?
    It's not SD Escavalier, it's SubSD. Like I said, can a CB Escavalier beat Poliwrath and Qwilfish?
    Here's a video I got, it was kinda last minute so this probably isn't my best ever use of it though.
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