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np: RU Stage 13 - All I want for Christmas - is a balanced tier

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by SilentVerse, Dec 4, 2012.

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  1. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest lovin'
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    Honestly, that is rather debatable. The lack of Leftovers recovery isn't much though, but defensive Pokemon may still stand. Hail isn't a common sight on the battlefield, really, because they suffer from too much compounded weakness to Fighting and Stealth Rock, which means Poliwrath can stop hail teams cold most of the time. Hail has numerous issues: Firstly, it has to rely on the mighty Snover. That is bad. When you're forced to rely on a mediocre Pokemon like the Mighty Snover, that's a big crutch. Also, very few can take advantage of hail, and those who can are usually Stealth Rock weak, racking up Stealth Rock damage too easily. The impact Hail is making on this meta is not much. Stallrein and Mandibuzz can be very annoying, and Rotom-F and Glaceon can be super powerful, but you must keep in mind that they are Stealth Rock weak and they have the mass weakness to Fighting, plus they are extremely dependent on the Mighty Snover to be successful. Hail is not that good of a weather and is typically not hard to counter. It's not ban worthy.
  2. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Cresselia is indeed a massive tank. During mini-tours, last round, and this round, I haven't find myself struggling to get past Cresselia, though. I think the biggest misconception I've heard on IRC channel and on the forums is the need to counter Cresselia. This strikes me as an absurd notion (countering a defensive mon?). From experience, you don't need to counter Cresselia; in contrary, all you need to do is pack more than one Pokemon that's not walled by Cresselia. Seeing how offensive teams pack more than 1 powerful offensive mon, Cresselia isn't destroying HO anytime soon. The emphasis is now on the opponent switching in Cresselia on your mon rather than you switching into Cresselia. And from my experience there are plenty of mons that can put major dents to Cresselia to make it useless if it ever switches in on them. Here's a quick list:
    • Absol
    • Aerodactyl (Taunt & Roost)
    • Aggron (CB)
    • Armaldo
    • Bouffalant
    • Cacturne
    • Crawdaunt
    • Crustle
    • Durant
    • Drapion
    • Druddigon (HC & LO)
    • Entei (SubCM)
    • Escavalier
    • Feraligatr
    • Fraxure (DD Taunt & Eviolite)
    • Gallade (SD & Lum / Sub)
    • Golurk (LO)
    • Hariyama (Guts + Payback)
    • Linoone
    • Pinsir
    • Rhydon (SD)
    • Sawsbuck (SD)
    • Scolipede
    • Scyther
    • Zangoose
    • Accelgor (LO)
    • Eelektross (Acid Spray)
    • Haunter (LO)
    • Jynx
    • Magneton (Metal Sound)
    • Samurott (Taunt or SD)
    • Spiritomb

    Quite a list for a Pokemon "that walls 95% of the metagame." Then of course there's manual Rain and Sun that adds more to the list of Pokemon that Cresselia fails to wall:
    • Floatzel (BU + LO)
    • Kabutops
    • Kingler
    • Omastar
    • Gorebyss
    • Poliwrath (BD)
    • Emboar
    • Entei
    • Magmortar
    • Moltres
    • Charizard

    Also there are Utility mons that can force Cress out or cripple it
    • Clefable (Encore + Status)
    • Cryogonal (Haze + Status)
    • Lapras (Hydration + Status)
    • Mandibuzz (Phaze / Taunt / Status)
    • Misdreavus (PerishTrap / Stallbreaker)
    • Whimsicott

    Now include Hail into the mix, and I found Cresselia an impenetrable wall on paper, but perfectly breakable in practice. From my perspective, RU has more than enough tools to deal with Cresselia. Sure, Cresselia is a major centralization force, as is any other good Pokemon like Sceptile, Entei, Slowking, etc. However, it does not restrict teambuilding to the extent that demands its banishment imo (and as shown through the list of mons that Cress doesn't wall).
  3. Limitless

    Limitless Success is the best revenge.
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    I don't really agree with this at all. When I use hail, the more bulky the team, the harder it usually is to sweep. When the teams are offensive, I can usually do quite a bit of damage with Snover and blizzard spamming becomes a breeze. I don't really feel like the canceling of leftovers is all that relevant, as I even use bulky Pokemon as pivots in my own hail teams, and they operate just fine. Lastly, Munchlax, a Pokemon that doesn't even have Leftovers, is a huge pain in the ass for hail teams. The only thing that you can do, if the opponent is competent, is trick a choice item on it.

    I really think this logic is flawed. We are not voting on a metagame that we are envisioning. We are voting based on what the metagame has currently shown. To make assumptions about a theoretical metagame, while possibly true, is not the correct way to go about it. Theoretically, you could just skip the entire suspect process and just vote. Obviously, that's a bit exaggerated, but you get the point. Only vote based on what you've seen.
  4. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    With all aspects, I'm inclined to disagree here. Cresselia can get hit super effectively, but has so much bulk that if it's not coming from Absol or Escavalier, it probably won't get OHKO'd. Most things who can hit it super effectively absolutely need to set up or they can't break through it. Cresselia also packs so many dangerous sets- The CM set not only provides it offensive prowess, but more special bulk- so it is literally impenetrable. T-Wave can cripple opponents so it can set up CM. Or alternatively, it can take a Hidden Power- Fire hurts Esca while Fighting deals with Absol and Crawdaunt. Also, Ice Beam can be used to deal with the two true dragons Fraxure and Druddigon as well as Sigi. Dual Screens can essentially do for the whole team and soften attacks. This makes Cresselia very powerful and overcentralizing.

    Poliwrath, one of Cresselia's most common teammates walls everything Cress fails to wall. Cress not wallin' that thing for ya? In comes the mighty Poliwrath, laughing at that thing and prpares to burn or phaze.

    Also, weather is so rare that Cress has little to worry about. She's still an OP wall.

    If you don't carry something to break through Cresselia+Poliwrath, you're screwed. With that, Cresselia is surely ban worthy IMO.

    EDIT: Another thing worth noting is that some of those things you mentioned very rarely run those moves. Magneton almost never runns Metal Sound, Rhydon hardly ever runs SD, and Druddi never runs HC. Floatzel never runs Bulk Up-its low Defense stat discourages that. Poliwrath also never runs Belly Drum, and is bound to die to Psychic easily. Also, Whimsicott is terrible.
  5. Molk

    Molk tfw zoroark
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    I was going to post this before but i wanted confirmation that nobody would laugh at me first.

    So i was trying to run a hyper offensive team, a lot like trop and i's old The Queen's tyranny team, but i wanted a more solid check to cresselia because the space duck can beat absol when played well thanks to its fraility, so i tried to find another pokemon that could beat pretty much any Cresselia set, because im a joker i decided to try out the mighty Dragon Dance Shed Skin Scraggy (im probably going to try Bulk Up too because lol) as my offensive Cresselia check, and to my surprise, it wasnt that bad, at least vs the admittedly subpar players on the PS ladder. Scraggy has pretty much perfect neutral coverage between its two STABs, and also has access to a high powered Fighting-type move to somewhat make up for its mediocre Attack stat. Scraggy could set up on many defensive Pokemon such as Cresselia, Slowking, Lanturn, Ferroseed, Uxie, and Spiritomb thanks to its decent bulk with Eviolite and Shed Skin, and could easily restore any hp lost in the process with Drain Punch. Im not sure if Scraggy is truely viable, though. Scraggy has a very low Speed stat (even slower than Crawdaunt), and its quite vulnerable without at least one Dragon Dance boost, Scraggy also struggles to do enough damage to the opponent if its not using Hi Jump Kick because of its mediocre Attack stat. Because of its relatively low offensive stats i often found that i needed to get to +2 to consistently sweep (thank god this shit is bulky x_x). So what do you guys think? Is Scraggy even the slightest bit viable in the metagame? or is the PS ladder just being bad?

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  6. speed ghilliesniper

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    Cool idea going with Scrafty for some more bulk, the only thing about it is that dd Scraggy, like many checks, get's stopped cold by Cresselia's #1 partner in crime Poliwrath. Poli can take a +1 move easily and return fire with a super effective attack while phazing away any boosts that have been accumulated and racking up entry hazard damage.
  7. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Ya mean Scraggy, right?

    Yeah, Scraggy could make for a solid check to Cress, with the massive bulk and the BU set has Shed Skin, which makes Thunder Wave a lesser worry. But yeah, Poliwrath can take a hit from this nigga and phaze with Circle Throw. But again, Cresselia+Poliwrath=The Unbreakable God Duo. Either way though, Scraggy seems like a solid Pokemon tbh.

    Well Scraggy does seem a little cool in RU. It has perfect coverage in just its STAB's alone (two of the Pokemon who resist the STAB's are locked away in the higher tiers, while one is shit outside of LC), and has just enough bulk to set up. It can set up on numerous defensive threats, and pull off the sweep. It does seem cool. Though whether it is truly viable is questionable-it does get destroyed by Fighting-types before it gets going, and is outsped by Sceptile and Scolipede. Though once again, Scraggy seems cool to use since Scrafty isn't RU (Thank goodness).

    Then again, this is coming from a guy who always loved pulling off random Scrafty sweeps in the higher tiers, so I really don't know about Scraggy's viability.
  8. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
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    Alright, the votes are in! Double01 has not voted yet, but since it has come to my attention that he is currently on vacation, and the fact that a verdict has already been reached, I'm going to post the results anyway.

    Cresselia:

    So, in a unanimous 6-0 decision, Cresselia will be banned from RU!
  9. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
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    Snover:

    So, in a close 4-2 decision, Snover will not be banned from RU!


    Also, as a heads up, Oglemi and I have decided that we will hold off on future RU rounds temporarily, to let the metagame stabilize a bit before SPL. We will resume testing on January 1st at the earliest, depending on whether or not certain Pokemon drop, so we'll get back to you guys then! In the meantime, enjoy the metagame!
  10. superbadd

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    Ouch, poor cresselia. Yay, snover, though! Can't wait to see what ru will be like after this.
  11. BLINGAS ♥

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    gotta be kidding me.
  12. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Yay, Cress got banned! Good riddance Cress!

    Also, thank goodness hail is still here. It's not broken, and it's fun to use.

    Also, when are we reinstating the RU Ladder?
  13. Worldtour

    Worldtour left: Hitmonchan right: rest of RU
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    They're doing it on January 1st
  14. Diatom

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    Thank you to the tiering staff! RU will be fun again now that Cress is gone.

    Also, one thing I've noticed is that lampent can function surprisingly well on a hail team. It is completely immune to fire and fighting, which are a conventional hail team's biggest weakness. I would encourage people to try it out!
  15. cbt

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    Cress was a good riddance.
  16. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    Finally~

    Here's to hoping I never have to write that much about a suspect again
  17. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Awww, yeah! Just what I wanted for Christmas :3
  18. Boingo

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    Oh look people realized Cresselia walls too much shit in the low tiers, like the last 2 times. Can't wait for the next Cress suspect test.
  19. Texas Cloverleaf

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    Now, now, let's not be entirely unreasonable, with relooking at BL2 there was probable cause that Cresselia should at least have been tested given metagame changes. As it turned out it was banned a round too slow but lesson learned and a nice Christmas present for us all.
  20. Meru

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    Yeah we should never re-test things, seeing how Durant also was found to be massively broken this round too!
  21. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    besides beer?

    And honestly, I'm really happy with how the suspect round went this time. Hail's fun and Cress sucks. Let's not change RU for a very long time please ^_^.
  22. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent Yeah, well. The Dude abides
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    I'm so happy that Cresselia's gone!

    Well, I've been experimenting a bit, and wanted to share some Pokemon that I think are some true gems in the current metagame. First and foremost is Gallade. Gallade was already a brilliant check to hail, as it had the special bulk to be able to take unboosted blizzards and KO the Ice-types with Drain Punch (I've been using the bulky SD set and it's truly amazing in this meta). It's biggest counter was Cresselia, which is now obviously no longer an issue. Moltres is still a dick though.

    Gallade got me thinking. What are some other Pokemon that do really well against hail and yet are not dead weight when the opponent doesn't run hail? Well, considering the face of hail is probably Frotom, I was looking at some BoltBeam resists that we have here. I've never been a big fan of Lanturn, Piloswine seems really interesting (still have to test this though, but it doesn't help that Frotom also resists Piloswine's STAB -.-). What I settled on was Magneton. Specially Defensive Magneton. Don't laugh, with Eviolite and a Calm nature, Magneton essentially has 304 / 339 /393 defenses. LO Frotom can only 4HKO Magneton with Blizzard counting Hail damage (Scarf is obviously less) and Magneton can strike back at Frotom with an Analytic boosted Flash Cannon, which despite being neutral, often OHKOs after SR or Substitute damage, and always after Frotom takes LO damage. Analytic is the real beauty of this set, as it essentially allows Magneton to have an effective SpA of 360, which isn't bad at all considering no SpA investment. The loss of Magnet Pull actually isn't so dramatic, as Steelix, Aggron and Durant beat Magneton regardless, and it can still happily counter/force out Klinklang and Escavalier. Here's the set I use:

    Magneton @ Eviolite
    Trait: Analytic
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 SAtk
    Calm Nature
    - Flash Cannon
    - Thunderbolt
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    ResTalk obviously isn't the most reliable strategy, but it's certainly good enough for Magneton. Having the most resistances of any Pokemon allows our pal to force multiple switches, freeing up turns. Cleric support is pretty easy to provide in RU (I'm using bulky QD lilligant with aromatherapy, a really underrated set) and it works like a charm. But of course there are many other options such as Roselia, Lickilicky, Uxie, etc.

    SubDisable Haunter is also another amazing Pokemon in this meta, and has brilliant synergy with Magneton, both offensively (especially if Magneton is running Magnet Pull, as only Steel-types and Drapion resist Haunter's STAB iirc) and defensively, as Haunter is immune to two of Magneton's weaknesses and Magneton resists all of Haunter's. Molk has a bit more experience with Haunter though, It'd be cool if he could share it :)
  23. speed ghilliesniper

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    Will the changes also take place January 1st? I just fought 3 Cresselia on the ladder, wondering when it's gonna be gone.
  24. Texas Cloverleaf

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    Cresselia's ban slipped through the cracks of the PS developers. The issue has been raised and Cresselia is now banned from the ladder.
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