Metagame NP: RU Stage 14: The Distance (Abomasite and Sharpedo Banned)

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atomicllamas

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I'm sorry, but if we want to analyse the metagame, we need that Sharpedo and Mega Abomasnow should be banned for RU Suspect Test...
No, it is just as easy to analyze the affect of these Pokemon on the meta game when they are in the meta as when they are not. If we ran just a ladder with no suspects, there would be voters who haven't played with either voting on the suspects. Again, let's stay on topic.
 
Hi, welcome to the forums!

Anyways, let me look at your thoughts:

Sticky Web is pointless because Sharpedo has speed boost and more often than not carries protect, so they can switch in, protect, and then their speed is back to normal.

Hazards, especially Stealth Rocks, are everywhere in RU, which break your sash every time. Additionally, trying to switch your sash user into Sharpedo will result in it going down to its sash most of the time, and then speed boost activates, and then Sharpedo is now faster most of the time, and then you lose a Pokemon. The only way to reliably get a sash user in is to let something else faint and hope there's no hazards on the field, which means Sharpedo is still taking something out.

The standard (248 HP / 8 SpD) Assault Vest Tangrowth is 2HKOed by Ice Beam, and therefore can't switch in because Sharpedo is faster. Amonguss needs 96 SpD EVs and an Assault Vest to avoid the 2HKO.

Blastoise has a tiny chance to be 2HKOed with rocks up, but it forces you to run Aura Sphere, as scald is a 4HKO and burns don't matter to a special Sharpedo.

Fletchinder can't switch in to Sharpedo so you still have to sacrifice something to get Fletchinder in, meaning Sharpedo has still taken one thing down. Aqua Jet also takes out Fletchinder after rocks if the Sharpedo player goes that route.


Hitmontop is 2HKOed after rocks by Hydro Pump, so it can't switch in unless you have Mach Punch on it.

Aromatisse is 2HKOed by Hydro Pump after Stealth rocks assuming the standard spread.

Virizion is 2HKOed by Ice Beam after Stealth Rocks, and with some speed boosts, Sharpedo moves first, so Virizion can't reliably switch in. Even then, Shark can carry Zen Headbutt.

Seismitoad can switch in (assuming the standard spread), and is 3HKOed by Ice Beam, but Earth Power without Special attack investment is a 2HKO, meaning because you are slower, you can't switch in your Seismitoad on an Ice Beam.

Rotom-Wash isn't in the tier. Scarf Flygon can't switch in and will inevitably lose if you try to send it in once Sharpedo has enough speed, which isn't difficult due to you killing everything and also protect.

Standard attacking Braviary (Choice Band Sets) is OHKOed by Ice Beam, OHKOed by Hydro Pump after Stealth Rocks, and 2HKOed by Dark Pulse after rocks, so it can't switch in unless you're running sub + bulk up with 212 special Defence EVs, which still can't switch in since Ice Beam 2HKOes most of the time or after a Hydro Pump + Rocks.

Gallade (assuming sub + bulk up with the same sort as the above Braviary or Choice Band) is 2HKOed by Hydro Pump after Stealth Rocks, and considering how Spammable Hydro Pump is, that's an issue.

Escavalier with assault Vest has a 71.6% chance to be 2HKOed by Hydro Pump after rocks, making it a very shaky switch-in. Choice Band Escavalier will be 2HKOed every time after rocks.

Specs Slowking can't switch into a Dark Pulse, neither can OTR. You have to run vest to dodge the 2HKO from Dark Pulse, but then you can't use Thunder Wave. Mega Banette dies on the switch from Dark Pulse, and there's a 31% chance you get OHKOed by Hydro pump on the switch as well. Registeel should always work though.

You can't realistically put a vest on everything, either, without getting into sub-optimal sets.

Hope this helps! :)
First off, I am sorry, I know rotom-w isn't in the tier, I meant ro
Hi, welcome to the forums!

Anyways, let me look at your thoughts:

Sticky Web is pointless because Sharpedo has speed boost and more often than not carries protect, so they can switch in, protect, and then their speed is back to normal.

Hazards, especially Stealth Rocks, are everywhere in RU, which break your sash every time. Additionally, trying to switch your sash user into Sharpedo will result in it going down to its sash most of the time, and then speed boost activates, and then Sharpedo is now faster most of the time, and then you lose a Pokemon. The only way to reliably get a sash user in is to let something else faint and hope there's no hazards on the field, which means Sharpedo is still taking something out.

The standard (248 HP / 8 SpD) Assault Vest Tangrowth is 2HKOed by Ice Beam, and therefore can't switch in because Sharpedo is faster. Amonguss needs 96 SpD EVs and an Assault Vest to avoid the 2HKO.

Blastoise has a tiny chance to be 2HKOed with rocks up, but it forces you to run Aura Sphere, as scald is a 4HKO and burns don't matter to a special Sharpedo.

Fletchinder can't switch in to Sharpedo so you still have to sacrifice something to get Fletchinder in, meaning Sharpedo has still taken one thing down. Aqua Jet also takes out Fletchinder after rocks if the Sharpedo player goes that route.


Hitmontop is 2HKOed after rocks by Hydro Pump, so it can't switch in unless you have Mach Punch on it.

Aromatisse is 2HKOed by Hydro Pump after Stealth rocks assuming the standard spread.

Virizion is 2HKOed by Ice Beam after Stealth Rocks, and with some speed boosts, Sharpedo moves first, so Virizion can't reliably switch in. Even then, Shark can carry Zen Headbutt.

Seismitoad can switch in (assuming the standard spread), and is 3HKOed by Ice Beam, but Earth Power without Special attack investment is a 2HKO, meaning because you are slower, you can't switch in your Seismitoad on an Ice Beam.

Rotom-Wash isn't in the tier. Scarf Flygon can't switch in and will inevitably lose if you try to send it in once Sharpedo has enough speed, which isn't difficult due to you killing everything and also protect.

Standard attacking Braviary (Choice Band Sets) is OHKOed by Ice Beam, OHKOed by Hydro Pump after Stealth Rocks, and 2HKOed by Dark Pulse after rocks, so it can't switch in unless you're running sub + bulk up with 212 special Defence EVs, which still can't switch in since Ice Beam 2HKOes most of the time or after a Hydro Pump + Rocks.

Gallade (assuming sub + bulk up with the same sort as the above Braviary or Choice Band) is 2HKOed by Hydro Pump after Stealth Rocks, and considering how Spammable Hydro Pump is, that's an issue.

Escavalier with assault Vest has a 71.6% chance to be 2HKOed by Hydro Pump after rocks, making it a very shaky switch-in. Choice Band Escavalier will be 2HKOed every time after rocks.

Specs Slowking can't switch into a Dark Pulse, neither can OTR. You have to run vest to dodge the 2HKO from Dark Pulse, but then you can't use Thunder Wave. Mega Banette dies on the switch from Dark Pulse, and there's a 31% chance you get OHKOed by Hydro pump on the switch as well. Registeel should always work though.

You can't realistically put a vest on everything, either, without getting into sub-optimal sets.

Hope this helps! :)
First off, I want to apologize, I know rotom-w isn't in the tier, I meant rotom-c

I just want to say that you're trying to find switch-ins for sharpedo, but I know that every on I listed isn't a switch-in, I called them checks because they can live a hit and ko right back. There are a lot of mons that don't have switchins but that doesn't mean they can't be dealt with, choice banded adamant medicham for example destroys 99% of the tier with high jump kick. I just wanted to point out that there are a lot of viable pokemon that are able to live hits and thus deal with sharpedo.

To counteract some of your points:

-sticky web is definitely good against sharpedo as usually these are the plays: sharp protects due to the speed drop => you switch a scarfed member of your team ins => sharpedo goes for the protect again => you still outspeed and kill sharpedo

You can say it is foolish to run choice scarf + webs, but I think it is actually really good in case you can't get webs up or you don't need them. I personally run a team with webs + aero + scarf rotom-c + scarf flygon and it puts in work.

-as I stated, hazard control is needed if playing hyper offense, but I experience, as I stated, that taunt (aero) usually does the job

-I'm not talking about living 2 hits, but just one

-braviary actually takes 99.1% max from sharpedo's ice beam if you don't have any hp/spdef investments

-if you run av slowking to not get 2hkoed by dark pulse, you probably should run grass knot

-fletchinder indeed can't switch in, but having a reliable revenge killer that doesn't need to be at full health is actually really nice to check sharpedo. If sharpedo actually packs aqua jet, it gives up on coverage or protect, which that it either a) gets walled by bulky grass types as you're probably giving up ice coverage or b) it can easily be outsped by other mons in it's first few turns on the field

I know that sharpedo is a huge threat, but I think it makes the metagame more fun and with minor preparation you can check it (In my opinion). So if your team has a check to sharpedo, it is also on you to keep it healthy enough during the game.

I do understand why other people think it should be banned, but I honestly don't want a bulky/stally RU metagame, which will probably be the case if sharp and abomasite get banned.
 
First off, I am sorry, I know rotom-w isn't in the tier, I meant ro


First off, I want to apologize, I know rotom-w isn't in the tier, I meant rotom-c

I just want to say that you're trying to find switch-ins for sharpedo, but I know that every on I listed isn't a switch-in, I called them checks because they can live a hit and ko right back. There are a lot of mons that don't have switchins but that doesn't mean they can't be dealt with, choice banded adamant medicham for example destroys 99% of the tier with high jump kick. I just wanted to point out that there are a lot of viable pokemon that are able to live hits and thus deal with sharpedo.

To counteract some of your points:

-sticky web is definitely good against sharpedo as usually these are the plays: sharp protects due to the speed drop => you switch a scarfed member of your team ins => sharpedo goes for the protect again => you still outspeed and kill sharpedo

You can say it is foolish to run choice scarf + webs, but I think it is actually really good in case you can't get webs up or you don't need them. I personally run a team with webs + aero + scarf rotom-c + scarf flygon and it puts in work.

-as I stated, hazard control is needed if playing hyper offense, but I experience, as I stated, that taunt (aero) usually does the job

-I'm not talking about living 2 hits, but just one

-braviary actually takes 99.1% max from sharpedo's ice beam if you don't have any hp/spdef investments

-if you run av slowking to not get 2hkoed by dark pulse, you probably should run grass knot

-fletchinder indeed can't switch in, but having a reliable revenge killer that doesn't need to be at full health is actually really nice to check sharpedo. If sharpedo actually packs aqua jet, it gives up on coverage or protect, which that it either a) gets walled by bulky grass types as you're probably giving up ice coverage or b) it can easily be outsped by other mons in it's first few turns on the field

I know that sharpedo is a huge threat, but I think it makes the metagame more fun and with minor preparation you can check it (In my opinion). So if your team has a check to sharpedo, it is also on you to keep it healthy enough during the game.

I do understand why other people think it should be banned, but I honestly don't want a bulky/stally RU metagame, which will probably be the case if sharp and abomasite get banned.
- Protect will fail on the switch, meaning you still get the speed boost and get to protect again, gaining another speed boost, going to +2 or enough to outspeed most scarfers.

- The problem is that you can't reliably get your spinners in to spin. Defoggers die to ice beam, and the only spinner that isn't 2HKOed reliably after the switch is Blastoise. Also, if you are using a turn to rapid spin while Sharpedo is on the field, guess who gets a free speed boost and attack?

- You NEED to live two to reliably switch in to Sharpedo because of how fast it gets. You can get away with one hit if you get a free switch though. [IE: You let one of your other Pokémon faint.]

- Stealth Rocks are everywhere. And I already mentioned why hazard Control, especially Defog, is iffy vs Sharpedo.

- Yes, but your original point was Thunder wave.

- Because fletchinder can't switch in, you have to let Sharpedo knock something out to get Fletch in, meaning Sharpedo has done its job.

Most good teams with Sharpedo will have things to remove Priority users or Hazard removers as well. For instance, Tyrantrum destroys defoggers except Flygon, and Fletchinder removes Mach Punch users with relative ease.

It's also about what the metagame will become, but trying to fix the problem of right now, which is that some Pokémon are very overcentralising or destroy certain playstyles singlehandedly. Stall is dead right now, so Sharpedo leaving won't give it much breathing room either.
 
Good lord, Sharpedo is ridiculous. Dark pulse is such an easy move to spam, and everything else gets blasted by hydro pump or ice beam. I see no reason not to use this thing on every single offensive team I make. Yeah, it's frail as balls but it's almost impossible to revenge kill if you don't have something with like Mach Punch. Virizion can only do so much to slow it down.

I don't have any strong opinions on Abomasnow, but Sharpedo is a cancer that needs to be removed ASAP.
 
so first time i've looked to make a productive post this year at the earliest, so bear w/me

i figure both kinda need the boot, for better or worse. initially i was kinda on board w/a mon like aboma being around b.c it's an accessible and direct threat that can punish teams for using m-lix as their steel, which in theory is a healthy n cool thing b.c prior to this their wasn't a whole bunch of mons that made issue of its 'impurities' as a defensive steel (moreso the ice neutrality, since we had stuff like growth prior that could do that and it mandated less adaptation on the part of the lix user). but yeah, it's too overbearing a force for this particular meta, shame on me force keeping a dated meta headspace on that. speaking of, i think a bunch of dudes are holding on to sd bein the be-all, end-all aboma set, which i think is what keeps them w/the no ban crowd, b.c those are the dudes switching in their ants n gurdurrs to get chunked for 60+% from a blizzard. growth even allows it a similar option to push the issue in the way sd does, and with the overall value of ground coverage on this being much less than it was in whimsi / doublade meta (all fires switch into blizzard + hazard really poorly, and the human compromise registeel is the only steel that really switches into and actively pressures a boosting aboma), sd really only boasts a slightly better offense end-game on merit of the stronger shard.

pedo i think most people are on board w/already, so i won't do more than briefly touch on that. i don't like it for being both a pretty dang capable beater (usually ur stuck rocking a bulky-on-both-ends, type-neutral fatmon to keep it under wraps, and some proper spike layering can muddle that up) and a snowballing offensive end-game in one, it doesn't sacrifice much to be good in most capacities and the tier is lacking in responses to it on either front.

sidebar, maud is at the best its probably ever been atm. not to say its great, but w/the meta being so much more inclined to tanky dudes trading hits, its pretty up there in terms of consistency. plus, w/the surge in darks and hoopa existing, its typing finally sees some real implications beyond decent neutrality. i think it needs to be dropping coverage for twave a bit more now just to make something meaningful 'happen' v.melo n hoopa (though subcm melo is obv.dicking you, but in dropping coverage it should allow a bulky offense you'd be seeing maud on handle to an extent), which is sorta ok since camel isn't getting much play now n you should've been accounting for spike concession if you were using this mon anyway. it faces that "my fairy isn't a fight resist" issue i touched upon when addressing diancie, but its all manageable enough.

e: forgot to mention, and ik spirits p.keen on this, but i also do feel aboma itself is worth dropping. it'll inevitably fill the same role as m-aboma when its gone w/slight alterations to play, which is to say it will be similarly unhealthy. nu dudes will be mighty greatful as well, as i am to understand it
 

SparksBlade

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spoiler: im pro ban on both, the arguments below are very much the same that have been talked of earlier already, cos obviously they are the reason why these mons are being suspect, so please don't mind. thanks.

i don't regularly play or keep up with ru, but i've played a bit in the past and really liked it, so i decided to play again when i heard of the suspect. i used an offensive team that was based off an old sample by eonx. took 50-something games(got unlucky towards the end :[) so i still don't have a very good grasp of the meta, but as comes with offense, i did get owned by sharkedo a lot, sometimes getting bailed by opp's misplay, but without a doubt it was a huge threat. after first getting destroyed by it, i noticed that it actually threatens a lot of the teams i saw on ladder, and after reading here i realize it actually doesn't have many reliable and usable answers. a mon with a lack of reliable answers, that also negatively effects offense as a playstyle, definitely deserves the boot imo. so for now, and seeing from the posts here i believe it won't change, but i think that sharkedo should be banned

i didn't face any regular aboma, so i can only comment about mega aboma. when against this, i had to be very careful cos whenever it came in, blizzard just ko'd a mon of mine. revenge killing wasn't that hard cos very few were sd and didn't get much space vs any mon, and medi can take a shard comfortably
+2 252+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 186-219 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
still, i noticed that while i can play how offense plays-sack a mon and revenge kill, this mon really rips apart balance and slow teams, and ofc ice shard is very handy vs offense. the sd set seems to have very few switch-ins, and most are easily taken care of. not to forget the special or mixed sets, cos blizzard does a fuckton to supposed-switch ins expecting sd. while i get that being slow+rock weakness are a negative, i think that's why it wasn't instabanned in the first place, and i don't believe that it should save aboma from getting banned.

i'm still watching out for all arguments from both sides(pro ban and anti ban), but i have formed a strong enough opinion for now that i can post here.
 
I figure i might as well try to articulate my current thoughts on the current suspect here, as I find it to be a rather interesting case for M-Abomasnow (less so for Sharpedo, but I'll touch upon it). I'm not pretending to talk about the WHOLE picture here, just a snippit, namely the role of steel types in the metagame and how it applies to M-Abomasnow.

I can't help but feel as though the M-Abomasnow suspect is a product of the environment as much as it is the Pokemon. If we look at the predominant offensive threats of the tier, they tend to all follow a certain trend, namely their disdain for the steel types of the tier. As evidence, those of which I am referencing are Tyrantrum, M-Abomasnow, Durant, M-Glalie, Meloetta, Venasaur, kinda Fletchinder, Aerodactyl, etc. Too say that's all the metagame encompasses would be reductionist - all metagames encompass more than a single element, and all these Pokemon have more complicated roles than just 'kill steel (or ground, for some) = win'. But the sum of the parts adds up to make this metagame's health partially dependent on the health of the steel-type component of the metagame. And many of these pokemon lack reliable recovery or have secondary typings that give them different niches but also more varied weaknesses (pursuit trap the bronzong due to the psychic typing, M-Steelix's ground type yields neutrality to ice, grass, weakness to water). In the case of M-Abomasnow, it's clearly one of the most brazen offenders of this - littered throughout this and other threads you hear people mentioning that M-Abomasnow has few checks and almost always the ones mentioned are 'Bronzong' and 'Escavalier' (the consensus/my opinion seems to indicate Registeel's place is predominantly for stall which can afford to have less momentum, it's certainly less crucial to the discussion). But if we compare this to other Pokemon that have limited checks/counters like Houndoom, we still see a large difference (not a perfect example, but bear with me, I think it gets the point across). Many of Houndoom's counters (Diancie, Poliwrath, Blastoise, kinda Seismitoad) don't have reliable recovery (RestTalk doesn't count imo) and could be susceptible to whittling. What's the difference? I mean, Alomomola is one that's significant, but it's also not the ONLY thing holding this back from 'broken'. And there are 'more counters', but all of them with similar exploitable weaknesses.

In my opinion, I think one of the most significance difference is this environment of hostility towards steel types due to the sheer density of threats that want steel types gone. Water types can certainly be pressured, but it's far easier for steel types because one of the best methods to whittle a Pokemon with weak recovery is with something it counters. This is all a result of the fact that the counter switches into the threat, takes say 15-30%, and then can't easily recover this back for Pokemon with weak recovery. If you switch a Sharpedo into a Bronzong on say the Stealth Rock (not something I recommend due to the risk of taking massive damage, but it illustrates the point), the Bronzong effectively takes nothing due to the switch mechanic. This means building teams around, say, two threats that have steel type counters and one or two things that pressure steel types out, you have an effective archetype that takes advantage of the sheer density of Pokemon that can 'chip' the steel type. And it's not like it's easy to maneuver around this by, say, adding another steel, due to the sheer density of threats in the tier (there is a reason that 'role compression' is the new buzzword among experienced players, it's directly related to the the sheer density of threats in the tier and the need to create teams that assign many roles to a single Pokemon). So with this in mind, the characteristics of steel types provide an exploitable weakness for aggressive-balance (bulky offence, I suppose) through hyper offense to exploit. I think this exploitable weakness is contributing to making certain Pokemon overpowered for the metagame - maybe not in singularity, but it's definitely a factor.

How does this directly pertain to M-Abomasnow? Well, when we are saying that M-Abomasnow has 'very few counters' we are being reductionist. It's also a factor of a metagame of which one of the strongest strategies for offense and some of balance is to break down these very Pokemon that counter M-Abomasnow. And since this has been a creeping issue for a while, the metagame has become adept at developing strategies, both active and passive, of doing just this. So ultimately I'm a tad reluctant to place all of the blame on M-Abomasnow when I think the metagame could also balanced by an overall reduction of pressure. Of course, getting rid of M-Abomasnow also reduces the pressure, and in my opinion something has to give to shift the metagame into place. I think 49 made a pretty cool point when he mentioned that M-Abomasnow could pressure M-Steelix as a steel type in a pretty unique fashion. In some ways M-Abomasnow represents an especially unique place in the metagame and I think it'd be a shame to lose that. But if it's broken it's broken, nothing to do about what it could've been.

I suppose my main internal debate has been whether or not M-Abomasnow is the culprit when we've got others (my mind drifts to Durant and Tyrantrum) who operate with similar pressure against their few counters (also consisting of many steels). But I think that they also have bulky grounds and waters as checks/counters that M-Abomasnow does not, and they have more checks in general than M-Abomasnow. They also have speed and pressure hyper offense better, but that's an entirely different monologue, it's not relative to the lens I have chosen. So whilst I am not entirely convinced to my core, I do think that the slab that needs to shift right now is M-Abomasnow, and as such am leaning towards ban. But I can't say that I don't think it's a bit of a shame, and I think there are other ways the metagame could permutate that could incorporate M-Abomasnow. Banning M-Abomasnow I believe to be the one that has the least risk and most likely to alter the metagame favorably - it'd be cool if the pressures on steels were reduced enough to be at a more manageable level, as it could help stabilize the metagame.

I'm a bit exhausted after that wall of text, so I think I'm going to skip on Sharpedo right now, might edit in an opinion later :p. The above monologue on M-Abomasnow in relation to steel types is only one lens with which to view the M-Abomasnow situation, but I think it's an important one and also a fascinating one! I'd love for a critical response or even a rebuttal towards this if somebody is itching to counter my points, but it's totally cool if nobody is up for it. Also, in general I'm curious to hear if there are any anti-ban opinions on M-Abomasnow, there have been a couple but not enough to feel like I've fully respected the other sides' argument.


Also consider this your quarterly reminder that CB Rhyperior is an underrated threat! This always gets brought up every once in a while, but I still hardly see people use it. It's one of those Pokemon that's easy to overlook in the teambuilder due to the tacit assumption that it's countered by Amoonguss, Alomomola, Slowking, etc. because it often functions as a rocker, but with rocks and if possible spikes support it can break through these Pokemon and cause major holes in the opponent's defensive backbone. I recommend Bronzong as one of the most compatible rockers to use with it (hard to find synergistic rockers with an entirely offensive rock/ground type, probably it's biggest weakness is on the teambuilding front). It's a great balance and even stall breaker for teams that struggle with these playstyles. I can expand if necessary, but I think I'm going to leave it at that for now.
 
i don't play RU as much as i play the other lower tiers, but just from like 20 or so ladder battles spamming sharpedo i can already tell this thing is pretty damn broken in the sense that its so easy to spam and very good at cleaning/breaking. the fact that it can go physical, special, or mixed also makes it very deadly. that combined with powerhouses in the tier like emboar and exploud i feel adds heavy constraint to team building, specifically balanced/stall. whether thats good/bad for the meta i don't have that much of an opinion yet but i can say sharpedo is really, really fun to use :]
 

Amaroq

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Now that I've reached the requisite COIL, I think I'll share both the team I used to get there and my thoughts on the suspects.

Sharpedo: This thing is broken. The fact that it can run special, physical, and mixed sets make it incredibly hard to check. Offensive Grass-types like Virizion and Venusaur struggle to switch in safely more than once, if that (offensive Virizion can switch into a Hydro Pump once, and then it's in KO range for Hydro Pump + Ice Beam). It can even run Aqua Jet to beat the Fighting-type priority users that would otherwise check it, as long as they're worn down enough. Pair Sharpedo with a Spike stacker and suddenly it doesn't really have safe switch-ins. Sharpedo rips apart offense and isn't exactly a slouch against any other playstyle. Ban.

Mega Abomasnow:
Leaning towards broken, but not 100% sold on banning it. The ability to go physical or mixed and tailor its coverage to beat whatever it needs to is really strong, but I feel like its potential brokenness might be overshadowed by Sharpedo, so I'm still trying to decide how I feel about this. I also share the sentiments of the above post regarding how the metagame treats Steel-types and how Mega Abomasnow is probably the thing that needs to go. Unsure, probably ban.

I'd have gone into more detail, but most of the previous posts in this thread said what I thought needed to be said.

Anyway, here's the team I used to ladder.
Qwilfish @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Waterfall
- Thunder Wave

Diancie @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Heal Bell

Abomasnow-Mega @ Abomasite
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 88 Atk / 252 SpA / 168 Spe
Mild Nature
- Blizzard
- Ice Shard
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake

Emboar @ Choice Band
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Wild Charge
- Sucker Punch

Flygon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Fire Punch

Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Protect
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam


It's pretty simple. My goal was to abuse the current suspects, since they work well together and each can threaten the other's checks and counters in some way. After that, I just added Choice Band Emboar for additional pressure on stuff like Bronzong and Escavalier and to provide additional wallbreaking power. Then I decided on Qwilfish and Diancie as ways of setting up hazards and checking, respectively, physical and special attackers. Between them (and the type synergy of the rest of the team), they can at least check most of the tier. Choice Scarf Flygon rounds out the team with some useful resistances and allows me to rack up hazard damage with U-turn. It also allows me to either revenge kill dangerous Pokemon or clean lategame. The strategy behind this team isn't really complex. Mostly, you just set up hazards early, break stuff with Mega Abomasnow and Emboar, and clean with either Sharpedo or Flygon. The team's not perfect, but it served me well and may help other players who need a way to jump into RU get started.
 
Alright, I got reqs a few days ago, so I'm gonna post my thoughts on it here.

Sharpedo is an absolute nightmare for offensive teams to face in RU. Its standard set of Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse, Ice beam and protect with the life orb poses a huge threat even to prepared offensive teams. It does have a few checks on offense, such as venusaur and Virizion, but even they take north of 70% from ice beam, and need to be free of nearly all prior damage to check it. At first, it might seem easy enough to run a few strong priorety attacks on your team and prey upon sharpedo's frailty. However, this gets a bit dicy when you realize that despite its frailty, sharpedo resists all priority outside of fletchinders acrobatics, mach punch, and vacuum wave. Sharpedo's abilities are further compounded by the fact that it can run a physical set that can smack would-be checks Virizion and Venusaur with zen headbutt, OHKOing them after stealth rock. The same physcial set can run aqua jet to handle Fletchinder that would like to pick it off with acrobatics. Sharpedo can even put in work against defensive teams, maiming them with the high base power of Hydro Pump and good coverage. overall, sharpedo is a threat that's just too hard to prepare for in RU and, in my opinion, should be banned.

Mega Abomasnow, for me, is not as clear cut. Being an avid user of offensive teams, Mega abomasnow hasn't ever really given me trouble. However, I do understand what it does to balance and stall. With a set of wood hammer or giga drain, blizzard, ice shard, and focus blast, Mega Abomasnow has exactly two switchins: Bronzong and Escavalier. The latter has trouble fitting on to stall, and both of them lack reliable recovery, making subject to the battering of mega abomasnow's blizzards, as well as the hail damage that follows. Many stall staples, like alomamola, diance, Amoongus, and slowking, are easy prey for mega abomasnow. Mega abomasnow also has a fully physical set consisting of swords dance, Ice shard, wood hammer, and earthquake, which poses a bit larger of a threat to offense, but less of an immeadiate one to stall. However, despite only having two switchins, it does have switchins. furthermore, pokemon like fire blast slowking and yache berry+Fire blast flygon can serve as ways to lure in and dispatch of mega abomasnow. I'm taking an interesting stance on the mega abomasnow ban- I'm abstaining. I just don't think i have the necessary knowledge to vote adequately for it.

Thanks!
 
So now we have one less Hoopa check, one less bulky Grass check and one less Mega Evolution. OK...

Oh, and we also have one less reason to use Typhlosion. Maybe now the low ladder will let it drop to BL3.
 
So now we have one less Hoopa check, one less bulky Grass check and one less Mega Evolution. OK...

Oh, and we also have one less reason to use Typhlosion. Maybe now the low ladder will let it drop to BL3.
Both of the first two categories you mentioned aren't exactly hard to fill, escpecially the first one. Losing a mega is kinda bad, I guess, but when the mega is borked it's not exactly something you want around. I think that, overall, scarfers will get better. We need Pokemon to fill the place that sharpedo had, which was slaying offense. (Ofc, you alway have fletch) I think that even with hoopa about, maybe slowing can make a slight comeback. Users of aboma are going to have to find more creative ways to break down stall. Bronzong is gonna take a swan dive in both usage and viability. I think that it will be borderline obscure. I think Escavilier will be able to stay viable, though. I still think running full stall is an uphill battle, as you have really strong stallbreakers and wallbreakers like venusaur, hoopa, and LO Medicham. I think venu itself will take a slight drop in viability- it will certainly still be good, but it loses its niche as an answer to sharpedo on offense. Virizion, the other check to sharpedo on offense, won't take that much of a hit since it's just that good, although I can't say for sure. Also, I'd like to comment to Mega-Pokebattlerz that there was never any reason whatsoever to use typhlosion. I don't hav time for any more, but I think this new meta will be a lot better.
 

EonX

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New meta theory time! With Mega Abomasnow and Sharpedo gone, there's obviously going to be some changes. Here's some mons that I think will be affected the most by this for better or worse:



Mega Camerupt got a pretty good boost with both of these bans. Mega Abomasnow generally outclassed it as that "slow, hard-hitting Mega", so I expect to see a bit of a rise in usage for it. Sharpedo being gone is also helpful since any Mega Camerupt team would need a reliable answer to Sharpedo due to how easily Mega Camel fell to it. It was honestly pretty underrated in Mega Snow meta, but it may finally have a chance to shine now. A simple moveset of Earth Power, Fire Blast, HP Ice, and Toxic makes it difficult for most Pokemon in the tier to switch into while it can also run past Mega Steelix and base 50s with Modest max Speed. Fire + Ground + Ice is quite a bit harder to switch into than you might think.



This one is probably pretty obvious, but normal Abomasnow is a natural thought to replace Mega Abomasnow. It does the same basic thing, only with more Speed and much less longevity due to lower bulk and Life Orb recoil. The higher Speed will make it harder for balance teams to deal with, but the lower longevity will mean it has a harder time breaking down stall due to having naturally fewer turns to wail at opponents. It'll be good, but not Mega Abomasnow good. Same moveset as Mega Abomasnow will probably work and 156 Speed EVs crucially puts it ahead of Blastoise and Seismitoad.



I'm really interested to see how Mega Glalie fares. Without Mega Abomasnow to compete for a hard-hitting Ice-type Mega slot, Mega Glalie could have a new lease on life. For the past couple of months, it has fallen out of favor due to the rise of Mega Abomasnow and while normal Abomasnow will still give it good competition, Mega Glalie will have newfound viability as a Mega in RU. Really not much else to say on this one.



While it never really fell out of favor, it was certainly a bit more obscure and one dimmensional with Sharpedo around in the tier. The departure of Mega Abomasnow also means mixed sets don't need Megahorn as badly, thus allowing it to run Taunt to break Alomomola reliably. Without Sharpedo around, special sets have a chance to shine once more and SD sets are still pretty good. The added versatility will likely make Samurott a top pick for teams that used Sharpedo for wallbreaking.



Bronzong has a real mixed result here. On the one hand, it was one of the most reliable Mega Abomasnow answers the tier had. On the other, it was one of few common Pokemon Sharpedo could actually attempt to switch into. Regular Abomasnow is likely going to rise and Tyrantrum still exists in RU, so I don't see Bronzong taking a huge hit in viability. It'll be harder to justify using, but it'll still be around. Just, not as prominent.



Scarf Tyrantrum is likely going to be the beast it was a few months ago. Sharpedo and Mega Abomasnow rising to extreme prominence kind of made Tyrantrum fall out of favor a bit. However, now that those two are gone, it wouldn't shock me in the slightest to see Tyrantrum become the offense killer it was before Sharpedo's rise. Rock Polish and Dragon Dance sets also have one less Ice Shard user to worry about having to deal with.

There's definitely more to discuss, but I thought that these might be some good starting points.
 
Meta Observations:
- Stall didn't really get that much better, if at all, with these two being banned.
- Balance or Bulky Offence are still the dominant playstyles.
- Tyrantrum is broken again.
- People aren't running bulky waters as often now that Sharpedo is gone.
- Weather hasn't made that much of an impact.
 
Oh nevermind. I just read that they're both banned. Yay. ^.^ And thank you Miyami~~

Uhm... So the current metagame without those two beasts is going to become very interesting. Medicham being back in the tier is going to change a lot of things. Now Tyrantrum will have another check which is a great plus. I personally enjoy using jolly banded Medicham, as its HJK essentially is the scariest thing to switch into. But Scarfed Medicham is just as usable and probably a bit more viable. Tyrantrum should also return to its throne as one of the best in RU. I feel that there will be more changes in using balanced cores. Venusaur is also a pretty cool mon that came down too. I bet we'll see a lot of new interesting ideas. There could be a bulky CM diancie for all we know. I don't know if I'm in the right to state this, but I feel like an update to movesets and spreads of several mons might be necessary in the future. Slowking should see much more use now that Sharpedo and Mega Snow are gone. Teambuilding should also be much fairer. Hail or no hail, weather really isn't a common thing in the tiers below OU. I think that Hoopa will also play a larger role in the tier now that Sharpedo is banned. If anyone has any ideas for hoopa, please share them. I think Hoopa has the potential to make or break teams, but I'm uncertain of how well it can do this to an extent. So, in all honesty, the whole RU tier right now will undergo several changes as we all figure out how to re-introduce a few previous RU members to the tier as well as the new ones that dropped before the suspect test. I don't know, somehow the combination of Sharpedo and Abomasnow made the other mons that dropped fairly difficult to use practically. Coincidence I suppose. But yeah, I'd love to hear thoughts about the tier now that the suspect test is over.
 
Also, I'd like to comment to Mega-Pokebattlerz that there was never any reason whatsoever to use typhlosion. I don't hav time for any more, but I think this new meta will be a lot better.
What I meant by "one less reason to use Typhlosion" is if there was any reason to use it in the first place, it was either as an Abomasnow check (which every other Fire-type in the tier can do better) or a Fire-type switch-in on teams that use Abomasnow (where it's outclassed by Houndoom). With Abomasite out of the picture, it loses both of these perks, and I know base Obama still exists but it's not as big a threat. I guess this means Fire-types in general have taken a hit, even though they don't have to worry about Sharpedo anymore.
Meta Observations:
- Stall didn't really get that much better, if at all, with these two being banned.
Losing M-Obama and Sharpie didn't make it better? I know Tyrantrum still exists, but that's one out of 3 threats still around.
- Balance or Bulky Offence are still the dominant playstyles.
Hyper Offense has gotten better as well, without Sharpie to shit on it.
- Tyrantrum is broken again.
But it's not as broken as when it was first suspected, with Medicham and Aggron back to check it.
- People aren't running bulky waters as often now that Sharpedo is gone.
Bulky waters still have their uses, and I feel they've actually gotten a bit better without M-Aboma to break them.
- Weather hasn't made that much of an impact.
You don't say?
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
3 things:

A: the Typh discussion seems at most mildly interesting and both people agree that it's worthless so hopefully this is where it ends cause that type of discussion can get real ugly real fast

Stall got better, except that regular aboma exists anyhow so, meh. People will use it less though.

Medicham was around when Ttrum was being suspected, and Aggron is a pretty meh check (also is it even any good? Boutta check viab rankings, if it's not C at least your boy will be confused.)

Edit: b rank! Personally would never use it over Ttrum but Shrug.
 
3 things:

A: the Typh discussion seems at most mildly interesting and both people agree that it's worthless so hopefully this is where it ends cause that type of discussion can get real ugly real fast

Stall got better, except that regular aboma exists anyhow so, meh. People will use it less though.

Medicham was around when Ttrum was being suspected, and Aggron is a pretty meh check (also is it even any good? Boutta check viab rankings, if it's not C at least your boy will be confused.)

Edit: b rank! Personally would never use it over Ttrum but Shrug.
Just to add onto the typhlosion remarks, could we just NOT discuss anything that's below C rank? Typhlosion, Ambipom, and Cinccino are woefully bad pokemon in this tier and have no practical basis for discussion to be honest.
And thank you for clarifying that Medicham was in the tier when Tyrantrum was suspect tested. I didn't remember if it was since that was a little while ago. After battling for hours yesterday through messing around with teambuilding and experimenting with certain mons, I noticed that I almost never see Aromatisse anymore. I think that if we are going to use regular Abomasnow, then we might have to forgo having soundproof as an ability because without hail up, blizzard has unreliable accuracy. The main thing that Mega Snow was banned for was its mixed moveset, with all due respect. So, with the sub par bulk and need of life orb to wall break, I do not think regular Abomasnow is going to be as powerful as its mega counterpart, though it does save a mega slot, which I suppose is a pretty decent plus. Aggron isn't particularly good in the current meta. For a start, it is outclassed by several other mons, namely Mega Steelix and Diancie. I've also seen some pretty interesting cores speaking of those two. Mega Steelix, Diancie, and Tyrantrum/Flygon seem to form a pretty good Fairy/Steel/Dragon core. I don't know, it's only an idea and observation I've noticed. I will admit though, I have not seen very many Aerodactyl, which strikes me as a tad bit odd, seeing as Aero speed ties Jolteon and acts as a pretty nice suicide lead, not to mention it is basically the fastest taunt user in the RU metagame (aside from Banette-Mega, which nobody ever sees enough to know that it runs taunt normally).
 
The main reason behind Aerodactyl's disuse is mostly due to scarfed tyrantrum being a top pick for a fast, offensive rock type. It has more muscle than even LO aero, a more powerful secondary STAB, isn't weak to rocks, and has much better physical bulk. This is obviously not to say that aero is unusable, having roost, the ability to switch moves, and taunt. However, suicide lead aero is an okay suicide lead, but that's just what it is. A suicide lead, which only fits on specific builds, where it already struggles to find a spot over omastar, qwilfish and various other potential leads. I'm not trying to bash aero, merely giving reasons as to why it's not used.

Something I'd like to touch on is how despite how good tyrantrum is... People seem to be boycotting it or something. I've seen very little of it on the ladder, and it's practically infamous for its disuse in SPL. I think it will make a "comeback" (the quotes are there because it was really never bad) once people get used to the new shiny toys in the recent drops. What do you guys think?
 
The main reason behind Aerodactyl's disuse is mostly due to scarfed tyrantrum being a top pick for a fast, offensive rock type. It has more muscle than even LO aero, a more powerful secondary STAB, isn't weak to rocks, and has much better physical bulk. This is obviously not to say that aero is unusable, having roost, the ability to switch moves, and taunt. However, suicide lead aero is an okay suicide lead, but that's just what it is. A suicide lead, which only fits on specific builds, where it already struggles to find a spot over omastar, qwilfish and various other potential leads. I'm not trying to bash aero, merely giving reasons as to why it's not used.

Something I'd like to touch on is how despite how good tyrantrum is... People seem to be boycotting it or something. I've seen very little of it on the ladder, and it's practically infamous for its disuse in SPL. I think it will make a "comeback" (the quotes are there because it was really never bad) once people get used to the new shiny toys in the recent drops. What do you guys think?
Ah, that makes a lot of sense. I knew you weren't bashing aero, it's cool mate lol. Though I just use Hone Claws Aero with LO if I don't run it as a suicide lead. It's basically RU's Mega Aerodactyl in that sense. Clearly nowhere near the mega form. And I agree with the Tyrantrum thing. I see Flygon far more often. Maybe some people are putting flygon in its place? Idk. I made about 8 or 9 teams yesterday and I used Tyrantrum on 1 or 2 of them. I had to change several things for some teams. Experimenting is difficult sometimes if you know what I mean. I do want to mention the fact that trick rooms teams seem incredibly viable right now. Since the recent drops, RU has 2 more trick room users. And Diancie has a fairly decent trick room suicide lead set. Hoopa is a monster under trick room. Then again, Hoopa is just a monster to begin with. Uxie, Slowking (and I think Mesprit too) have access to trick room. So in addition to the previous trick room users, like Cofagrigus, Uxie, and Bronzong, we have some new ways to set it up. I feel like I'm speculating way too much here, but before those guys showed up, a trick room team would almost need Bronzong, Cofagrigus, or Uxie to set up a trick room. And all three of them don't have great coverage or great power on their own in my opinion. I guess we all just have to get back into the swing of things. Mega Abomasnow was in the tier for some time before now. Basically, it's just a lot easier to build teams for all playstyles as well as cores and backbones. And btw, Tyrantrum is still pretty much S rank in my opinion. It just cleans so well with a scarf. It threatens an easy sweep with D-dance. It just exudes raw power that very few other things in RU can equally match. I also feel like Exploud is a bit more usable now that Abomasnow is harder to use. It can have soundproof, but if it does, then it probably doesn't have blizzard. I'd give Exploud B+ or A- at best though. I feel like I'm posting too much. I apologize if I am. It is just exciting to have a fresh clean RU tier again. ^.^
 

Pearl

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heh, it's really been a long time since I've last made a serious post in RU

First of all, and to make this post a little less harsh-sounding, the most recent bans were definitely a good call and we're already starting to see improvements in the tier. However, I feel that the metagame is still quite far from being a balanced one, or at least that's how I and a couple of other players I've chatted with about RU (mostly SPL players I've helped with preparations) feel. With that said, I've already brought what I'm about to bring up in this post to some players, and the opinions have diverged quite a bit, which is why I think that making this public is the way to go (and even if it isn't, at least it'll make this thread a little more active I guess). I'm talking about suspecting Durant sometime in the near future.

Trying to come up with solid reasoning to suspect Durant is a little tricky though. I think that it's very similar to Sharpedo in the sense that its presence automatically makes any attempt at creating a good offensive team nearly impossible, due to its amazing (by RU's standards) speed tier and equally good power, which makes the number of Pokemon that can switch into it extremely limited and pretty much forces people to run Mega Steelix, Qwilfish, Alomomola or Jellicent (not going talk about below-average Pokemon that people run as Durant checks. I've had enough of that while trying to get Moltres banned) on every team. All of those (with the exception of suicide lead Qwilfish, which obviously isn't a Durant answer) are "meh" Pokemon on offense for obvious reasons. There's also the fact that two of the formerly mentioned Pokemon are incredibly easy to wear down and Durant has options in its moveset to play around all 4 of those (Superpower, Thunder Fang and Baton Pass. All three moves are good filler moves on Choice sets and dedicated Baton Pass sets are quite viable as well, and have even seen usage in SPL). It goes without saying that Durant also has its flaws, and while I think that it's not as broken as most stuff that is currently in BL2, its presence in the tier isn't healthy at all and a suspect test should at least be considered, even if people end up coming to the conclusion that they want it around. Looking at Tyrantrum right now n_n
 
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feen

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The thing about Durant is that it has a plethora of sets: Scarf, Band, Sub+BP, Hone Claws. Identifying what set is being used is hard to tell unless the opponent decides to reveal it. The main problem about Durant is that it has one true counter (Rotom-Fan), while everything else can be beaten with the appropriate sets and moves. Choice Band and Hone Claws sets apply a lot of pressure to balance and stall teams, while Choice Scarf sets is a pain for offensive teams to deal with. We have already seen how much usage it got in SPL and how useful it was. It is clearly one of the most centralizing Pokemon at the moment and it should be one of the prime Pokemon to be considered for a suspect test in the future.

e: @below, no Durant would wanna run rock coverage unless it specifically wants to lure Rotom or Sub BU Braviary which is very unlikely
 

Nails

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Agreed with Pearl, I'm not completely sure if the tier would be healthier without ant but I think it probably would be and the discussion around it would be good for the community just to work out if it really is broken.

edit @ above: durant is not hard countered by rotom-s, it can run rock coverage pretty easily. it rarely wants to admittedly.
 

EonX

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Ah, Durant. The beloved little ant that is the bane of many players's existences. So before I give my thoughts on Durant as a whole (many of you probably already know this if you know me well enough) I want to talk about its two primary sets. Keep in mind that these are NOT the only sets it can run, but just the two I feel are most effective.

Life Orb Durant: So Life Orb 4 Attacks Durant is one of the most potent wallbreakers in the tier imo. Base 109 Speed is good enough to clean late-game with at times as well, but a simple set of X-Scissor, Iron Head, Superpower, and Thunder Fang means Durant is breaking just about every relevant defensive Pokemon in RU. There are incredibly few defensive switch ins for this set and it's pretty obvious that offensive Pokemon are usually taking 40-50% off of resisted hits (unless it's Thunder Fang, but you should never need that vs. offense) If you want a Pokemon to absolutely break balance teams, revenge kill some offensive threats, and simply put anything slower than it in a bind whenever it comes in, this is the Pokemon you want to add if you can.

Choice Scarf Durant: So Life Orb Durant is a premier wallbreaker, but can struggle with faster Pokemon due to its frailty on its special side. Don't worry, Choice Scarf Durant is here to help you out with those shortcomings. Scarf Durant gives up some of its ridiculous wallbreaking power to become a top revenge killing choice and late-game cleaner. Commonly forgoing Thunder Fang for Baton Pass, Scarf Durant is able to revenge kill otherwise solid revenge killers of the Life Orb set without much difficulty. Baton Pass also means that it can force out its defensive checks and switch out immediately to pressure them with a teammate. The base 109 Speed is what makes the set so good as it can outspeed every common Scarfer in the tier. Were it not for Flygon, this set would be even better due to being able to use an Adamant nature to keep more of the power. If you're looking for a Sharpedo replacement of sorts, here's a good option.

Obviously, Durant has Hone Claws to sweep and can utilize Baton Pass alongside Sub and / or Hone Claws instead of just Scarf. And, oh by the way, it can use Choice Band too if Life Orb just isn't enough for you. I feel like that if you're considering using Rotom-S, Rotom-N, and Pelipper to keep Durant in check, that's kind of a problem And yes, I'm well aware that T-Fang murders Pelipper, but it can check every set not using it. There's a reason Scarf Emboar is still pretty dang good despite Tyrantrum and Medicham being superior in most ways. Yep, you guessed it, to switch into and revenge kill non-Scarf Durant at least once. I really would like to see some consideration for a suspect test on Durant. Unlike Sharpedo and Mega Abomasnow, it strains pretty much any team type out there because it has a set to harass every team type around. It doesn't matter the type of team you're building; there's one or two Durant sets that you know you absolutely are going to need a check for if you hope to succeed. Can Durant miss with its moves? Absolutely. But so could Moltres. And there's a reason I'm specifying Moltres here. Sure, Durant doesn't have the bulk of Moltres at all, but it also doesn't need nearly as much support (read: hazard control) It's also naturally faster, which allows it to perform decently against offense even if it lacks a Choice Scarf and its best switch ins generally lack reliable recovery of any kind whereas Moltres's biggest obstacle had Regenerator (Slowking).
 
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