Metagame NP: RU Stage 15: Gucci Gucci (Honchkrow RU, Amoonguss and Quagsire OU)

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atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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The RU council has brought up Durant as being deserving of a suspect test. As always, if you'd like to see some in depth reasoning as to why this Pokemon is being suspected, there are some paragraphs below written about why Durant in particular was chosen. The suspect test will last 2 weeks and the deadline will be at 11:59 PM EST on the 7th of April, assuming the ladder is up by the end of the night.

The requirements for this test will be the same as last time, with a small change. The reqs will be 2800 coil with a B value of 9.0, but you will need to finish reqs within 62 games. Some sample values are below. I will know if you reset your win loss, given its determined by GXE, do not attempt to game the system you will be infracted if I catch you, and I will.

Code:
GXE N
100 18
90 25
85 32
80 46
78.5 55
77.5 62
To find out how many matches it'll take for you specifically, take your GXE, and put it into this formula
N=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2800)


Durant is an incredibly influential pokemon in the current RU meta game. It's scarf set can be quite difficult for offensive builds to account for, while Life Orb or Choice Band sets are capable of tearing into more balanced and defensive teams, while still being threatening to offensive teams thanks to its naturally high base speed. While Durant is vulnerable to certain bulky water and fire types, it has means of playing around these checks without giving up too much flexibility, either by choosing certain coverage moves or using Subpass or Hone Claws. Durant's good physical bulk and defensive typing also benefit Durant against opposing offensive teams, as it gets opportunities to fire off powerful STAB attacks after switching into opposing Ice types and is difficult to wear down with priority.


tagging The Immortal for a ladder B)

Also here is NP song:


Spirit Style picked it so if you're gonna trash someone's musical taste its his, but I like it too so stfu.


***PSA: Do not shit post. Posts lacking content are subject to be deleted and/or infracted.
 
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passion

heavenly :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Hello again people who like RU or want to get tiering contributor Smogon pixels, this is another suspect of a Pokemon I have personally deemed extremely unhealthy for the meta. I feel in my heart that this suspect will result in an extreme majority ban for Durant but I will make a post with my thoughts anyways. Durant is a Pokemon with an array of fantastic sets such as Scarf, Band, Orb 4Atks, SubPass, Hone Claws, etc. This makes Durant extremely easy to fit onto a team. Being forced to guess what set Durant can be extremely annoying but that isn't even the only thing that makes it amazing. Durant heavily restricts teambuilding Scarf, Band, and Life Orb completely tear apart offense and balance every time Durant gets in and Durant's main switch-ins bulky waters give a free subpass to Virizion or an assortment of other setup mons forcing you to deal with yet another nuisance. Durant has gotten to the point of forcing people to overly depend on Rotom-Spin (trash) because it is the only complete counter to every set unless lol random Rock Slide then their goes your Durant switch-in. The only thing Durant has going against it is being able to miss which is in my opinion way too reliant on luck to say that makes it not broken. Some games Durant hits every attack and some games Durant misses every attack there is not a set amount of times it will hit or miss, it is completely random, so to me this argument is invalid and equates to outplaying the coinflip but this time with only 20% in your favor ad 80% in the opponents. Anyways this Pokemon is stupid and the fact that it has remained in this tier for such an extended period of time triggers me very much plz get rid of this thing.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
Basically, Durant hits almost the entire tier with immense power and coverage alongside high speed and it becomes overwhelming in almost a heartbeat. All of its sets are good and diverse making it harder to know which Durant you are going up against and our best answer is this.m
and while Rotom Fan isn't a bad mon it isn't as splashable as a lot of other Pokemon in the tier and can actually be hard to fit onto teams. But I might as well play devil's advocate here so anyone not familiar with the tier can see Durant's down sides.
  • It can get revenge killed by a lot of special attackers if not running scarf itself.
  • Superpower can be a downside when played well, forcing Durant to switch out and getting free chip damage or whatever
  • Durant is uncomfartable match up with Emboar.
And that is all I can think of at the moment, also since this is meta discussion thread


Flames of Hell (Emboar) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Reckless
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Superpower
- Flare Blitz
- Protect

Defensive Emboar has been really effective at helping my team deal with Durant especially since it can spread burns with Will-o-Wisp on whatever comes in and Protect is nice for scouting choice locked mons. Protect is especially nice on Semistall and getting extra burn damage. Its really underrated choice for a team slot at the moment but actually handling Durant pretty well I thought I would bring it up
 
cofagrigus walls it. can stand at least 2 hits, more like 3 or 4 (becauase crunch isn't that common on durant). so enough turns to wow.
alom and mega steelix can also stand 3 hits, while alom can burn it with scald and steelix otherwise is not afraid of virizion.
hitmontop can stand some hits, but lacks to revenge damage
hitmonlee ohko's it.
there is for sure some more.
the other thing is, in uu it stands not much chance.

when will the susbect be on showdown?
 
I am sorry for making this a point but i just wanted to jump in. So, Alright, first of all I think Durant deserves a ban. But i do think that you have to note that, and i am serious when i say this, you have to take luck into account, as Pokémon is partly a luck based game. For example, Focus blast does much more damage than superpower on Specially offensive mons. But still superpower is, even in tiers without Chansey/Blissey, a very common and viable choice. So i think you have to take note that missing/avoiding attacks still limits the choice sets just a super extremely little bit. But it's something right?
That being said, it is still is broken. It is extremely viable and everything to note about that has already been pointed out in post #2 and #4. I strongly agree.
 

EonX

Battle Soul
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cofagrigus walls it. can stand at least 2 hits, more like 3 or 4 (becauase crunch isn't that common on durant). so enough turns to wow.
alom and mega steelix can also stand 3 hits, while alom can burn it with scald and steelix otherwise is not afraid of virizion.
hitmontop can stand some hits, but lacks to revenge damage
hitmonlee ohko's it.
there is for sure some more.
the other thing is, in uu it stands not much chance.

when will the susbect be on showdown?
I'll give u mola and steelix as both are good and common. However, LO Durant is doing a hell of a lot with the proper move (Thunder Fang and Superpower respectively) Cofagrigus isn't that common and its best set doesn't even use Wisp (it's OTR btw) on top of that, most Durant teams have some sort of mon that can switch into Wisp and Fire moves in general since that is Durant's main weakness. Finally, how it does in UU has no influence on whether a mon should or shouldn't be banned here. If it's too strong in RU, it should be banned regardless.

Also, agreeing that defensive Emboar is really underrated atm and a pretty cool mon.
 
I dont get the reason why you bring this suspect in this moment. I mean, durant does the same that it has be doing always, its checks and 'counters' ( yeah, rotom-aids) are the same. My point is that currently the tier is not weaker to durant than it always have been. The recent tier drops and bans do not matter with durant.
That being said I agree that the ant is way too powerful for the tier, being able to break balanced team that do not have a way to deal with it ( tbh every team nowadays should have a way to do it but w/e ) ,with the LO or CB sets, and being an huge threat to offensive teams when choice scarf is the item chosen. Also has an incredible coverage with moves likes thunder fang or crunch that damage heavily some mons that usually switch into durant . Sets like subpass or hone claws are also a viable option . Hustle sometimes can be frustrating, not hitting a move in a game, but except that cases, the extra power it provides it's obviusly helpful .
If I have to say by now if durant should be banned I would say so but I may think more about it since in a 'fat tier' like RU this type of pokemon with the capacity of breaking defensive cores are appreciated sometimes.
 
Wow I'm shocked!

...

If you couldn't tell, I was being sarcastic. Yeah, I think this thing is pretty damn borked and although I use it on on plenty of my teams, I'll be happy to see it go. I think it has, especially with rocks up, a lot less switchins than people give it credit for. Many people bring up stuff like Poliwrath and Mega Steelix, which is a pretty bad argument when they're both turned into mulch by thunder fang or superpower. People seem to disregard the fact that even Non-Thunder fang durant can do north of 50% with CB superpower to stuff like poliwrath. Saying that durant misses is an extremely poor arguement against it being broken. Yeah, it misses, but the other 80% of the time you're just gonna be stuck there, lacking a reliable switchin, since there really aren't a ton. Provided you do have something that beats it, it's easy enough to just run Baton Pass and bug out (badum tsss) when the opponent sends in a stop like Rotom-S or Rotom-N and go from there. Durant has probably been here way too long and deserves to go.

Edit: Just let llamas pick the song. I'd like that better than this...
 
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Durant is really interesting honestly. It's kind of odd that before the recent changes in the last 2 or 3 months, Durant was always Durant and wasn't really viewed on the same pedestal that it is now. I don't know, maybe it's just me. I think that the most dangerous durant set falls on either the Life Orb Attacker or the Choice Band set. That doesn't say anything about the scarf set nor the hone claws set, both of which are powerful in their own right. But with a Life Orb, switching into Durant is really difficult, especially during the middle stages of the battle. Once everything has taken some damage, countering LO Durant means that you will take a big hit, even if you resist. Here's an example:
Let's use something really defensive... Say... The Great Wall of Mola (Alomomola). For the sake of argument, the early phase of the battle has transitioned to mid-game phase, a few shots have been fired, and 1, 2, or 3 mons on each side have taken "minor" damage; no KOs yet. Let's say Mola is used as a counter and comes in on rocks and it's now sitting somewhere between 76 and 88% HP before it takes the hit (A good scenario for Alomomola to be used as a counter in general). Here are the theoretical outcomes for LO Durant and standard Mola hard switching into its move:

(1) 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 120 HP / 136+ Def Alomomola: 105-125 (20.9 - 24.9%) --
Given the good scenario for Mola, Durant will dish out 20.9 - 24.9 percent. At the end of the turn (after leftovers), Mola should have between 58% HP and 74% HP
So this is the best scenario for Mola other than Durant Missing its mark because thunder fang will do at most 53.8% to Mola after the first hit, meaning Mola can use wish or whatever.
(2) 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 120 HP / 136+ Def Alomomola: 211-248 (42.1 - 49.5%) --
At the end of the turn in this case (after leftovers), Mola should have between 33% HP and 52% HP. Now... This is still a good situation for Mola because Superpower removes the attack boost granted by Hustle essentially (but not the accuracy drop ^.^). Even at the absolute worst scenario where Mola is at 33% after hard switching, Mola can still survive; however... -1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Thunder Fang vs. 120 HP / 136+ Def Alomomola: 153-182 (30.5 - 36.3%) Basically forcing Mola to hit protect for an extra leftovers turn or switch out. Regardless of where this scenario stands though, Mola has had a fair chunk of health ripped out of it. Even if it comes in later after Regen (rocks are still up assumedly), after rocks Mola will have 73% HP in the very best scenario, which is not necessarily bad for Mola, though, I would have to use Mola with a bit more caution in regards to hard switching. Overall though, Mola is relatively okay after this.
(3) 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Thunder Fang vs. 120 HP / 136+ Def Alomomola: 229-270 (45.7 - 53.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ... Ouch... So... Uhm... Yeah... If your opponent makes a good prediction and Mola takes a Thunder Fang, Mola will probably have to run away. Now of course, you do have protect + leftovers if you seriously need it (and have leftovers over rocky helmet). So it isn't impossible to stay in, but if you did that, then you could be taking a risk depending on what the opponent does. This also leaves you prone to losing momentum. Also, I want to point out that for this specific outcome Alomomola is starting from full HP. If Alomomola is not starting from full HP (before stealth rocks) as it comes in to take a hit, there is a significantly higher chance that Mola cannot stay in as the starting HP before taking the hit decreases...
(4) 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 120 HP / 136+ Def Alomomola: 211-250 (42.1 - 49.9%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ...This is also not a particularly good scenario for Mola because if we are in the good scenario where Mola is sitting between 76 and 88% HP after taking rock damage and before taking Durant's attack, at the end of the turn (after leftovers recovery) Alomomola should have between 33% HP and 52% HP remaining... There is a decent chance that Durant can get the KO with Thunder Fang next turn. Even if you choose to gain an extra 6% from leftovers through protect, Durant would still have a chance to get the KO with Thunder Fang. This is Standard Alomomola (120 HP, 136 Def, 252 SpD, Bold Nature).
All that this proves is that Durant has the power to seriously keep Alomomola from acting as a hard counter for 2 moves with just a life orb essentially. That's not a very easy reality to achieve.
If we are talking about Choice Band Durant, then we reach a new level of complexity entirely. If we have LO Durant and spikes are thrown into the equation, you have something that is virtually non-counterable. Thunder Fang will have 76% accuracy thanks to Hustle, which at the very least gives some amount of fairness for dealing with Durant; unfortunately, 76% or 80% are still accurate enough to make Durant a terrifying foe to face. Durant is such a huge threat in RU that any team lacking proper preparation for it will be considered a borderline non-viable team. By proper preparation, I mean that there should be an answer to at least 2 different common Durant sets. For instance, I had a pretty good balanced offense team that I was laddering with several weeks ago (I was around the 1400s). That team did get an rmt if you're interested, but that aside... That team had 2 ways of dealing with Durant. Scarfed Tyrantrum could revenge kill the LO variant with Head Smash. Diancie/Steelix could act as a soft check to the choice variants depending on the move used. But this was the problem my team had with Durant... I had no way of countering Durant, which made it very unpleasant to deal with. There was only 1 answer to the Hone Claws Variant and Scarfed Tyrantrum's Head Smash was rarely powerful enough to revenge kill Durant after rocks. If the only answers I had to the scarfed variant are soft checks, then they usually ended up costing me momentum or made it impossible to stop Durant from coming in, getting a kill, then leaving. The same with the banded variant. It was also very hard to tell whether Durant was choiced or not because it just outspeeds so many things already and does enough damage in the mid-late stages of battle that distinguishing a choice band variant from hone claws or e-belt or whatever else was essentially impossible to do. So when I say "proper preparation," I mean you have to be able to properly deal with at least the Hone Claws variant in addition to the choice band/scarf or LO variant, otherwise your team will face some problems from Durant. Period. I understand that you have to have 1 method of dealing with Tyrantrum at the bear minimum; yet, Durant somehow needs to have multiple answers. Just because you might have a way of dealing with the Hone Claws variant does not mean you have a way of beating the LO variant, as I hypothetically examined with Alomomola above. You might have an answer to LO Durant, such as Scarf Tyrantrum to revenge kill, but that does not mean you have an answer to the scarfed variant nor the Hone Claws Variant, as I explained with the team I was using a few weeks ago. I advise that you evaluate Durant in the same manner as I tried to with the Alomomola example before reaching a conclusion about it. There are quite a few more than just Alomomola that turns into a slight weakness due to Durant's incredible strength. I'm leaning more towards a ban here.
 
Of all songs to pick, why this one?

Ok, so on topic now. I think we all knew this one was coming, as Durant has been controversial to say the least. For me, the main thing that pushes it is not only its absurd power, but downright awesome speed tier of 109, which allows it to actually out speed a lot of mons on offense even without a scarf. Life orb and band punish anything that is not named Rotom-Fan, and scarf can easily clean an even slightly weakened team and slice through offense like butter. It might have bad special defense, but the ant has an amazing typing, being only weak to fire, and a very good defense stat of 112, making it not that difficult to bring in. I'll talk more if I get reqs, but for now I have to lean on the ban side, as there is almost no reason to not run the damn thing.
 
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tehy

Banned deucer.
Now that I got reqs, I'd like to comment.

Frankly, Durant is broken as all hell. I can't possibly build a team that handles it with any degree of competency that isn't also total dong; I could barely try and fit weezing or maybe cofragrigus on as half-checks that aren't any good, emboar won't fit no matter how hard I try and just isn't that good either.

The sad thing is it doesn't really change my teambuilding, so much as win most of the time regardless unless I stay outplaying. Or, maybe be Band / Scarf and barely manageable.

I would make some super solid argument but i consider myself to be more of a debater. I.E. I need something to fight against, and right now I don't see any really good arguments that Durant is not broken, bar 'it can miss' which no one seems to take seriously and good thing too.
 
I'm pretty surprised that no one has yet compared Durant to another suspect test, Tyrantrum. I think that they havee pretty similar cases as they both are offensive powerhouses with the abilities to tank a physical hit if needed, they are very difficult to effectively counter (also because of their good coverage) and they posses the ability to threaten faster of bulkier teams depending on their set.
Tyrantrum was eventually considered ok-ish for RU, and it's still here, so what are the differences with Durant and why does everybody think that our ant is broken and should leave?
I personally think that what sets apart Durant is its base speed: 109 base speed is just insane for such a powerful mon, being able to outspeed the likes of Delphox or Virizion without the aid of a boosting item. This is very different from Tyrantrum, whose reliance on a scarf to threaten most pokémon can be a liability when trying different sets like Band or DD, thus sacrificing versatility and being a bit easier to check. Being locked into a scarf means that Tyra has some trouble breaking trough some defensive cores, because one can simply switch in some blanket check like Alomomola, scout the move you're locking into and then switch into a resistor, restoring health in the process.
There are also some more differences, but I think that this is the main difference between the two and also the main reason why Durant should leave and Tyrantrum shouldn't.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-349767161 Guys I beat Sam. :o


Regarding Durant, I'm not sure of which opinion I want to do with it, but I'm leaning more on the No Ban side. While it does have the power and coverage to threaten pretty much any mon, it DOES have checks, it CAN be beaten. I've even won some games on the suspect ladder just because of a Durant miss, or have benefitted from it missing and crippling itself. (Literally one time I only had a Malamar left, and then the Ant missed and I killed it and won, showing just how luck-reliant Durant can be at times.) Sure, Hone Claws can mitigate this somewhat, but Durant still has a somewhat tough time setting up due to it's mediocre bulk, especially on the special side. Also, some of Durant's checks are getting a bit more noticed and better in the meta, such as Rotom-Fan and defensive Emboar. This is actually a pretty big step, as before people were using softer checks like Poliwrath and Mega Steelix, while while they can function as Durant checks, don't function quite as well versus Durant than the other mons. Overall, I'm open to either side of the argument, as Durant can be pretty damn annoying with his insane damage output and versatility in sets ranging from Life Orb to Band to Scarf to even the rarer SubPass set, but right now I'm leaning towards a No Ban on Durant due to his flaws in missing at important times, and the fact that some of his checks and counters are getting better.
 

EonX

Battle Soul
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Finally at my computer to go more in-depth on my thoughts with Durant. So, here goes:

Durant is a Pokemon that EVERY team has to prepare for. Offense has to deal with Choice Scarf and Life Orb. Balance has to deal with Life Orb and Hone Claws. Stall / semi-stall has Choice Band and Hone Claws to contend with. Now, stall isn't very common so I won't go into more detail about it and I feel enough people have experience with offense that I won't delve too deep into it either. So, I'll stick to how balance handles it (or tries to)

So Balance teams ideally have defensive and offensive answers to just about every Pokemon in the tier to use at different times, depending on the stage of the game and the situation. Durant has a total of two "safe" defensive switch-ins (i.e. not weak to ANY common move) in defensive Emboar (still takes 50% from Superpower and has no reliable recovery) and Rotom-Fan (weak to Rocks and no reliable recovery) Mega Steelix takes 61% MINIMUM from Superpower while Alomomola takes 45% minimum from Thunder Fang. This isn't bad until you realize it doesn't resist X-Scissor and takes a clean 42% minimum from that. Poliwrath takes 47% minimum from Thunder Fang, which would be better if it wasn't forced to Rest or risk being broken through. And Qwilfish takes just under 50% from Thunder Fang. All of this is assuming Life Orb Durant against supposed Durant switch-ins. Rotom-S is the ONLY remotely common / good RU Pokemon that doesn't take more than 30% from any common move Life Orb Durant carries. And its weak to Rocks and lacks reliable recovery. So that means Durant has one "reliable" defensive answer and quite a few shaky answers that rely on it either A.) not being Life Orb or B.) missing....

I want to speak about Hustle. Hustle turns all of Durant's moves into Stone Edge basically (80% accuracy) for a Choice Band boost to its Attack stat. Base 109 Attack is really good on its own, but it gets a FREE Choice Band boost (and by free, I mean it's not locked into a move) The downside is that it can miss. Gee, a Pokemon that can miss with its best moves. Why does that remind me of a Pokemon we had in RU before? *hears a cry from a bird in a cage* oh, hi Moltres, you could miss with your best moves couldn't you? What did we have to reliably answer your sets? Oh right, nothing... Nothing good that is. *Looks back at Durant* huh, I'm getting a small feeling of de ja vu. I wonder why? Oh right, Durant can miss with its best moves but has next to no reliable defensive counters and can rip apart offense with a Scarf set. Ok, now it makes sense.

So here's the two things I can recommend using on Balance if you want a reliable defensive check to Durant:


Rotom-Fan @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Air Slash
- Pain Split
- Thunderbolt

Really cool mon since it's the only semi-good RU mon that takes <30% from all of Durant's common moves and it also checks Fighters pretty well. Easy Mega Lix switch-in since it can get off a Will-O before a possible Stone Edge (Toxic sucks, so have cleric support at the ready) Pain Split is the only type of recovery Rotom-S has, but it's necessary to keep it from being pressured too awful badly. Air Slash and T-Bolt are for STAB moves to KO obligatory opponents. T-Bolt is used over Volt Switch since Rotom-S doesn't like to switch (for obvious reasons) unless it has to and it gives it a much stronger matchup vs. Fletchinder. EVs focus on physical bulk because you're using this thing to hold back Durant, Fletch, and Fighters. Almost all of them are physical.



Emboar @ Leftovers
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 224 HP / 216 Def / 68 SDef
- Flare Blitz
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect
- Superpower

I felt this EV spread was better when Mega Snow was in the tier and it's still nice for the 4-6% boost in special bulk vs. Venusaur and regular Abomasnow. This was already discussed earlier in this thread, so I won't go too far into it. It's really underrated, pretty solid, and should be used by more balance teams considering how well it works with Alomomola. Can spread burns, scout Choice mons, still hit decently hard with Flare Blitz, and can emergency check Tyrantrum in a tight spot.
 

Aberforth

is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Ubers Leader
Just chiming in to say Ban Durant, and also to say Curse-Rest Steelix is really damn good in this metagame. Get rid of your opponent's strong special attackers and it just wins so often.

But yeah durant is way too strong and its like 3 checks are all just way too passive and unreliable for it to be healthy on the meta. I normally like balance, but I've barely touched it in RU cause of how easily it can get overloaded by the combination of Durant + insert threat here. And even offense struggles with the wallbreaker, which normally balances its unbelievable breaking power with its relative slowness and frail-ness, but durant has 109 speed instead. Good mons that outspeed durant: Sneasel, Accelgor, Jolteon and Aerodactyl. And kinda dugtrio but dugtrio is balls, just not quite as balls as the others that outspeed I wont mention. So aside from them, scarfers are the only things that can effectively revenge kill a healthy durant, which means its already picked up a kill cause most scarfers that can kill it cant switch in for their life.

Ya just ban it. Please and thank you.

(also can someone on the council tell me why this wasn't just an executive decision to ban it? That's as close as we're probably going to get to an anti-ban argument)
 
Fuck Durant.

Every playstyle is threatened by it in some way. Choice Band rips through balance, Choice Scarf bones offence and Hone Claws / SubPass screw balance and stall. It is versatile enough that you may expect one set only to get completely fucked by another, and its sets are relatively close to each in viability (above-average at LEAST).

I want to focus in particular on Choice Band Durant. If you are good at predicting, Choice Band Durant simply cleaves through the things that are supposed to check it - the otherwise excellent Water / Steel defensive core of Alomomola and Mega Steelix that is a staple on balance is 2HKOed by X-Scissor and Superpower, respectively. This would be fine if Durant, like other Choice Band / Specs wallbreakers (Exploud...), was hampered by low Speed. However, like PomMan mentioned above, Durant has an extremely annoying Speed tier of 109 which means that most unScarfed Pokemon can't do very much The few things that do outspeed 348 Speed Durant are way too frail to even consider coming in on it, and most Scarfers - again echoing PomMan - do not want to come in on Choice Band Durant at all unless they are attempting to revenge kill it. Free kills! Hustle just makes Choice Band Durant even more ridiculous since you are essentially applying a free +1 boost on what is already a raw +1 stat increase. Think of a Choice Band user with a base Attack of 188. Other variants of the insect equally appreciate the Hustle boost: Scarf Durant becomes the tier's most powerful 'unboosted' revenge killer and cleaner thanks to the Hustle boost, while Hone Claws Life Orb Durant at +1 packs an absurd amount of power that allows it to overload many a team. The miss chance associated with Hustle is an extremely poor basis on which to argue Durant as 'not broken' since there are issues if you are relying on it to miss one of its attacks to win. It parallels people who disagreed with banning Tyrantrum saying that, because Head Smash can miss, Tyrantrum is not broken (not that I think it's broken, but I digress).

Overall, Durant's presence in the tier is massively constraining on teambuilding, especially when building offence and balance, thanks to its excellent versatility, great power, good coverage (Bug / Steel / Dark | Fighting is surprisingly potent) and crucial Speed tier. For this reason I support banning Durant as I have for quite a while now.
 
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Holiday

on my best behavior
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Been a minute since I've posted in RU (doing it bc llamas is toooooo cute) but I'm definitely leaning BAN on Durant. It's very reminiscent of Moltres in that it has a plethora of viable sets (Band, Scarf, LO, SubPass, Hone Claws, compared to Moltres's Life Orb, Specs, Agility, SubRoost and SunnyBeam) and while it is hard pressed to hit due to Hustle (or Moltres's Fire Blast/Hurricane) it hurts when it does. Durant's power makes it nearly impossible for offense to switch into, while its speed means you can only hope to revenge kill most of the time; furthermore, its decent movepool makes the few defensive switch-in take a decent amount of damage (TFang for Alo, Crunch for Cofag [mummy sucks after though] and Rock Slide for Rotom-Spin) All in all, it's just too much to deal with for most teams, and even not from an offensive standpoint, its wallbreaking capabilities allow it to effortlessly support Pokemon such as Absol to sweep. Ban it.
 
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Durant is a very interesting mon. In one aspect it is extremely fast mon that has few checks due to its nice coverage in Iron Head/X Scissor/Superpower/Thunder Fang. However on the other hand there's opportunity cost that comes with using it, in which all of your moves have at the most an 80% chance to hit it. Now you may say "Well Hone Claws is an option." However if you do run Hone Claws you either don't hit things like Mlix or you don't hit something like Pelipper. But here is the problem that arises with Durant. The opportunity cost that comes with using Durant is completely overshadowed by how much you get from using it. I think most players will tell you that they would rather have no switchins into a mon and risk that 20% chance to miss. And that's why I say ban Durant
 
As a relative nobody, here are a few points of order.

Defensivly, Durant has few weaknesses, but more importantly very few things that can beat it can actually come in on it. Sure, your Emboar can threaten it with a fire move, but, oooh, that Emboar just took over half of its HP, and Durant is free to switch out next turn. This is, of course, assuming that Durant had not set up Hone Claws, or decided to run a Choice Scarf , or a Life Orb which buff its damage enough to kill it on the second turn, Attack Drop be damned.
252 Atk Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Emboar: 244-288 (57.5 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Emboar: 317-374 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Emboar: 366-431 (86.3 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (!)
By wielding a Life Orb, Durant can hit Emboar as it comes in and lower it enough to smash it with the second Superpower. If it sets up Hone Claws first, it has a chance to kill it outright. If the claws are honed, and it is holding a life orb, there is just no point even sending Emboar in.
The "Safest" options to wall off Durant are no less underwhelming.
Mega Steelix
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Steelix: 200-236 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Steelix: 174-205 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Steelix: 200-236 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
A Mega Steelix, built to maximize Physical Defense, still looses half of its HP by going a round with Durant. If the Choice Banded set Superpowers Mega Steelix on the switch-in, it can kill it next turn through the attack drop. Steelix menaces with spikes of hitting the switch-in with an obvious move in return.

Rotom Fan
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-S: 89-105 (29.2 - 34.5%) -- 7.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-S: 77-91 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
This is better! Then again, this is the entirety of Rotom-Fans job. A pokemon absolutely devoted to countering another one can only come in on it about three times with lefties, and doesn't significantly scare it in return.

If that were the end of it, we'd have a contender, but Durant is very versatile. The exact same set has done all of the above, and could potentially run all sorts of crazy stuff if it wanted. Durant can freely choose between going in pincers blazing on turn one, terrorizing and potentially killing whatever gets sent in on it, or else set up Hone Claws first, terrorizing and potentially killing whatever gets sent in on it with increased accuracy, or else nabbing a choice item and terrorizing and potentially killing whatever comes in on it. Durant basically forces a sacrifice into a revenge kill, which Durant can always switch out of. Durant is very fast in the tier, and anything faster than it is too frail to come in on it. Only Aerodactyl can even pretend to threaten it back with Flamethrower or Fire Fang, everything else waves Hidden Power Fire weakly in front of it. That leaves scarves, but Durant has an ace up its sleeves. It has accomplished all of this without being a set-up dependent sweeper. It can just leave, and try again after you switch. This also assumes Durant is not running a scarf itself, as Durant can make excellent use of one, spelling doom for Durant's would-be counter. Durant annihilates any defensive team, since it is the Wallbreaker that can keep on wallbreaking, the sweeper that can change its mind, and the bait to bring out the opponents "get out of jail" card they brought.
If Durant needed that set up turn, or else couldn't set up, Durant would be a top-tier threat. The fact that it can choose on the fly what to do and excel either way is just too much. I'd vote Ban.
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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Hello, several people have approached myself and other forum mods about the game limit for the reqs this time, due to these concerns about tilt and hax (which happens a lot on the ladder e_e) we will be raising the game limit to 62, which means you can make reqs with a gxe of 77.5. I've updated the OP to reflect this change.
 

EonX

Battle Soul
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Post-reqs thoughts!

Ok, so Durant is kinda messed up. I don't think it's entirely the fault of Durant itself as there are simply so many threats you have to prepare for, but it is one of the hardest ones to deal with. Despite preparing well for Choice Scarf and Lum HC variants, I still had quite a difficult time with Choice Band variants and I wasn't a huge fan of Life Orb variants either (at least they dropped themselves into KO range of my speed mon) Even though I was using defensive balance, there's so many other mons it has to prepare for that I was still left open to Band Durant and Band Tyrantrum (thank god this wasn't used more. this thing is a monster oml) I've gone into detail about Durant before. I'm going to be voting to ban it because it's stupid. Don't feel like repeating myself. That said, here's a couple of fun mons I used during my run:


Shadow Stitch (Tangrowth) (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Giga Drain
- Focus Blast
- Knock Off
- Aerial Ace

Meet your best Flygon switch-in the tier has that isn't a Steel- or Fairy-type. AV Tangrowth is a great defensive Pokemon that isn't all that passive thanks to 100 / 110 offenses. Despite Giga Drain being STAB, Knock Off is a very easy move to spam considering most of Tangrowth's switch-ins bar Fletchinder don't exactly care much for it (Delphox, Bronzong, Registeel, Sigilyph, etc.) Focus Blast takes a good chunk out of Mega Steelix and is also nice to put a lot of damage on Durant upon switch-in (tho Knock is usually better initially) Aerial Ace is kinda just there to OHKO Virizion after CC or a little passive damage. Even at +2, Virizion isn't able to OHKO Tangrowth with HP Ice, so it's a very easy direct switch-in for any Virizion set. AV Tangrowth benefits greatly from going fully defensive and I went with 16+ Relaxed due to Tangrowth having a little better overall bulk and the ability to switch into Mega Steelix much more reliably, but max / max Sassy is definitely viable to be a better pivot into special attackers. Really good defensive glue mon for balance teams that I can recommend anyone try if they haven't already.


Lurgy (Garbodor) (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 248 HP / 220 Def / 40 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Gunk Shot
- Pain Split
- Haze

I loved Garbodor during this run. Between Pain Split and Aftermath, it has the potential to strip anywhere from 30-50% of any physical attacker that makes contact with it. It also provides for a decent Venusaur check with the small spdef investment and Gunk Shot keeps Venusaur from reliably using Synthesis. Spikes is very nice to pressure switch-ins and Haze is an often-forgotten option for it that stops a lot of boosting mons cold, especially mono-attackers like Diancie. It's unfortunate that it can't do a single thing to Mega Steelix, but running it with stuff like Alomomola and / or AV Tangrowth is an easy way to alleviate this issue considering they have Regenerator and don't take a lot from its attacks. It's a very underrated Spiker in the tier and can be nice if you want Spikes, a soft check to Fighting mons, and a Venusaur check in one slot. Also, Aftermath is really cool to strip 25% from physical attackers.
 
The requirements for this test will be the same as last time, with a small change. The reqs will be 2800 coil with a B value of 9.0, but you will need to finish reqs within 62 games. Some sample values are below. I will know if you reset your win loss, given its determined by GXE, do not attempt to game the system you will be infracted if I catch you, and I will.
Quick question, doesnt resetting the w/l ratio also reset coil? Sorry for the one-liner, but didn't know where else to ask.
 
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