Metagame NP: RU Stage 2.5: Kids (READ POST #265)

[Skankovich]

Oh I know drought is banned, I'm just talking about Sunny Day Houndoom over Nasty Plot Houndoom. You get enough power to 2hko blissey after 1 turn of setup, unlike nasty plot, and amazing coverage in Solar Beam for a 25% weaker dark pulse and losing some health each turn.

 

[Mymble]

Houndoom is going to effect Delphox being immune to its dual STAB before Mega Evolving, because of this I think Pursuit might be pretty good on Houndoom.

 

[Max Carvalho]

Hidden Power Fighting Delphox may be a thing.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

Also, any fast offensive mon has checks, but that doesn't suddenly make every single one of them managable. Mega Houndoom is very fast, meaning that only Jolteon, Scarfers and powerful Mach Punch users can revenge kill it.

And it generally makes him much more capable of setting up on a lot of threats. Don't underestimate Mega Houndoom, is all I'm saying. There aren't many mons that can reliably tank a +2 STAB move and hit back hard enough to KO.

I agree to the fact that Mega Houndoom is nothing to be underestimated about. I also had agreed to the fact that it will have a great offensive presense. But what I don't agree to, is that it will be broken as much in the RU tier. As you have rightly pointed out, Mega Houndoom is very fast, meaning that only Jolteon, Swellow and sharpedo (after +1), Scarfers and bulkier AV Fighting types like Hitmontop, Hitmonchan (clearly there is so much hate for this mon that it surprises me, I just dont want to underestimate him after a clutch sweep that i had to deal with) and Gallade can revenge kill it.

I will definitely keep it in the top of the tier threat list. But as I said earlier: I do hope, that it stays around; as the meta needs to grow a bit wider and it might make weather more viable in the RU meta.

After trying Sucker Punch Mega Houndoom (in UU) I gotta say that it is kinda shit and not worth running, 90 attack without boosting item is really weak, and if your opponent surprise you with a surprise substitute you could find yourself in trouble. Instead run Flame Charge. After 1 Flame Charge it should be able to outspeed everything in the tier. As shown above it also has an ok-ish amount of bulk to survive even SE STAB priority, added to its sucker punch resistance, it will be extremely hard to RK at +1 speed.

Thanks, I will keep this in mind while building a set ;)

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Megadoom will stomp on stall. It will also be broken cuz fast and offense have no switch-ins.

 

[EonX]

Yeah, keep in mind that this won't happen until September, if it even does end up happening. For all we know, Houndoom's usage was that low because UU got so many new toys to play with in a single month. As it stands right now, RU has very few answers to Mega-Houndoom. Shark and Lee falter if Doom carries Sub in that last slot (Shark has to Protect the 1st turn just to be faster, so yeah...) But for now, I really don't see the point in theorymoning about something that won't even be around for another 2 months, even if its usage stays low enough to make it RU.

Gale Wing Srock, no I wasn't saying Cobalion would be a suspect. I was just pointing out that it's a fairly easy way for Web Offense teams to adapt post-Shuckle.

 

[Turtleye]

I know a legit reason why Cobalion should be banned *ahem* galbia *ahem*

Houndoom might be nice, but aside from the Mega it has not much to differentiate itself from Zoroark so yeah...
The mega will be banned anyway o3o

 

[g]

I know a legit reason why Cobalion should be banned *ahem* galbia *ahem*

Houndoom might be nice, but aside from the Mega it has not much to differentiate itself from Zoroark so yeah...
The mega will be banned anyway o3o

STAB FIRE BLAST

 

[cacturne]

also pursuit lets it counter delphox hard w/ np

 

[Afro Smash]

Yh mixed LO Houndoom is good for trapping and countering Delphox, however Mega Houndoom shouldn't run any Physical moves. Nasty Plot, Destiny Bond and Sunny Day are the only sets you should see (if it drops).

 

[cacturne]

Yh mixed LO Houndoom is good for trapping and countering Delphox, however Mega Houndoom shouldn't run any Physical moves. Nasty Plot, Destiny Bond and Sunny Day are the only sets you should see (if it drops).

By np i meant no problem and also i am assuming mega doom wont last very long

 

[Mew2]

Yh mixed LO Houndoom is good for trapping and countering Delphox, however Mega Houndoom shouldn't run any Physical moves. Nasty Plot, Destiny Bond and Sunny Day are the only sets you should see (if it drops).

Don't forget Flame Charge! Flame Charge + Nasty Plot make a great combo that prevents M-Doom for getting revenge killed by faster things like Jolteon and Swellow, I used both in my HO UU team with a great sucess. I still don't see why we are discussing Houndoom; the tier changes won't happen until September and Houndoomite will prolly get quick banned.

 

[Invisi]

So it seems that despite having the second reply to the voter ID thread, the Shuckle suspect has come and gone without me. Not that my vote would've made a difference to anything, but this does really send a strong symbolic message that I am not wanted here. Not that this is anything new - I have been mocked and abused by a small subset of the community for a while now. (I probably should've saved relevant replays, but alas I did not think too much of it at the time.) As much as I enjoyed playing in the RU tier with a completely new team archetype, a small subset of the community clearly don't enjoy my presence here, and have done a fairly effective job at making that feeling mutual. You know who you are and what you've done, and I congratulate you on achieving your goals. Maybe I'll try playing again in future, but for now it's just not worth it.

As for this particular incident, the only thing I have to attribute it to is the discussion earlier on this thread in which I presented a clearly unpopular opinion. While that discussion was regrettably derailed by a number of misunderstandings on all sides (myself included), I still stand by my opinion. Although I am unconvinced that is broken at the level many people seem to believe, I can see that Shuckle web offence has been unhealthy for the tier. Regardless, I still maintain the opinion that banning Shuckle is the wrong way to remedy this.

On a lighter note, I also want to touch on the recent discussion of this thread. A few of you may remember a thread I made a few weeks ago entitled "The Baton Pass Effect." It was quickly pointed out to me that simply creating a thread like that was inappropriate, and I promptly removed it after about 15 minutes. As a quick side note, I would like to reiterate my apology for this; I was originally mistaken in thinking that tier shifts were every month, rather than every three months, which is why I thought this matter was a lot more urgent that it actually is. Nonetheless, the point I was trying to make is still worth discussing.

For those that didn't see the thread, the following pretty much sums up my concerns:

For all we know, Houndoom's usage was that low because UU got so many new toys to play with in a single month.

The popularity of Baton Pass in the OU metagame really screwed with the usage stats. A lot. It brought weird Baton Pass using Pokemon like Mr. Mime into OU, as well as some very odd counters like Quagsire. None of these Pokemon really should've been there in the first place. As a flow on effect, a number of Pokemon which were less relevant in the Baton Pass metagame dropped to UU. Next tier shift, this saturation of OU Pokemon in the UU metagame will cause a number of UU threats to drop to RU. Some of the UU drops will be healthy for the RU metagame, but many will not be. At the same time, thanks to the Baton Pass ban and restabilisation of the OU metagame, UU will lose many of the new toys it acquired in May, and start to claim back many of the Pokemon which drop to RU. Many of the UU-RU drops will not survive one tier shift, and it is important to keep this in mind when deciding whether or not to allow them into RU.

 

[Talpr0ne]

The popularity of Baton Pass in the OU metagame really screwed with the usage stats. A lot. It brought weird Baton Pass using Pokemon like Mr. Mime into OU, as well as some very odd counters like Quagsire. None of these Pokemon really should've been there in the first place. As a flow on effect, a number of Pokemon which were less relevant in the Baton Pass metagame dropped to UU. Next tier shift, this saturation of OU Pokemon in the UU metagame will cause a number of UU threats to drop to RU. Some of the UU drops will be healthy for the RU metagame, but many will not be. At the same time, thanks to the Baton Pass ban and restabilisation of the OU metagame, UU will lose many of the new toys it acquired in May, and start to claim back many of the Pokemon which drop to RU. Many of the UU-RU drops will not survive one tier shift, and it is important to keep this in mind when deciding whether or not to allow them into RU.

Incorrect. First, the only odd Pokémon in OU right now are Vaporeon and Smeargle, as Scolipede still holds valuable niches as a quick passer, as a Spikes lead and as a late-game cleaner, while Quagsire has really little to do with Baton Pass actually, as its main merit is preventing stall teams from crumbling at the very sight of Charizard-M-X and Bisharp. Mr. Mime never made OU in the first place and not even all chains used it, as most of them prefered Zapdos.
Regarding UU drops, they all were from Pokémon that weren't affected at all from the Baton Pass popularity, they were all outclassed Pokémon that should have been UU months ago in the first place(Blissey being outclassed by Chansey, Infernape being mostly outclassed by Keldeo, Goodra being outclassed by Dragonite, and Lucario, Manaphy, Volcarona and Alakazam having issues with other elements of the metagame in general, such as the extreme popularity of certain Pokémon). So, it's safe to say that these tier shifts will be much more durature than you think, expecially those that are apparently making Houndoom slowly dropping(Blissey, Goodra and Infernape).

 

[Ningildo]

So it seems that despite having the second reply to the voter ID thread, the Shuckle suspect has come and gone without me. Not that my vote would've made a difference to anything, but this does really send a strong symbolic message that I am not wanted here. Not that this is anything new - I have been mocked and abused by a small subset of the community for a while now. (I probably should've saved relevant replays, but alas I did not think too much of it at the time.) As much as I enjoyed playing in the RU tier with a completely new team archetype, a small subset of the community clearly don't enjoy my presence here, and have done a fairly effective job at making that feeling mutual. You know who you are and what you've done, and I congratulate you on achieving your goals. Maybe I'll try playing again in future, but for now it's just not worth it.

From fat RU Stage 2 Suspect Voting opening post:

If you qualified but your name is not on the list, then send me a PM and i'll get it sorted out. Likewise, if you're getting the "You have insufficient privileges to reply here" message, then also PM me.

The votes still haven't been tallied up and getting votes is important if you want tiering contributor, so you might want to cast your vote anyway.

And while you probably have amongst the least popular opinion regarding Shuckle, I doubt that people would go so far as to remove your influence altogether, so don't go quiting RU because of a misunderstanding. Please read the Suspect Voting thread better next time, ok? 9.9

 

[aVocado]

I know these words are probably moot right now because the result is already decided, but I'll go ahead and say them anyway. I voted ban because something as overcentralizing as Shuckle and as broken as it is shouldn't even be in the tier to begin with. You might argue that it's not broken and Sticky Web teams can be handled easily, but you really can't argue that it's not overcentralizing. It's not even subjective anymore since if you can't see its effects on the metagame then you either 1. don't play the tier or 2. not play the tier enough. It's just not healthy for the metagame when you can literally build a successful an effective HO team by simply throwing in Shuckle, Hitmonlee, Doublade, and 3 other wallbreakers and calling it a day. Something like that needs to leave the tier ASAP.

I don't know if Sticky Web will continue on to be popular post-Shuckle ban, but for now I know that Shuckle has to leave the tier.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Frankly speaking, I have no idea whether Shuckle is banned or not, but I'd like to suggest an interesting Pokemon to use. I was reading through some NU posts yesterday and there was some minor discussion about Eviolite Pawniard. Knowing that Sticky Web offense is one of the strongest playstyles out there right now, and Pawniard literally does the same thing Bisharp does in OU in that it completely dismantles the playstyle. Unlike the other prominent Defiant user in the meta, Braviary, Pawniard loves Sticky Web boosts as it gives him a free Swords Dance. Even though it's slow, it takes advantage of Sucker Punch to fuck over Hitmonlee and Doublade.

Pawniard @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Att / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Iron Head

+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 246-290 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 178-210 (73.5 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Exploud: 313-369 (75.9 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Most of these attacks are solid 2HKOs on all of these threats, which means after a few turns of taking hazards damage, Pawniard can easily take out most members of Sticky Web.

 

[aVocado]

eaglehawk just saying but hitmonlee would just mach punch anyway lol:

252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 317-380 (137.2 - 164.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Afro Smash]

It's just not healthy for the metagame when you can literally build a successful an effective HO team by simply throwing in Omastar, Hitmonlee, Doublade, and 3 other sweepers and calling it a day. Something like that needs to leave the tier ASAP.

:] or maybe 1 wall breaker and 2 sweepers

 

[aVocado]

:] or maybe 1 wall breaker and 2 sweepers

I honestly doubt other HO teams are as simple or as stale as building shuckle HO unless u wanna prove me wrong :]

 

[Afro Smash]

They pretty much are, Hazard Setter/Doublade/Sharpedo/Yanmega/Hitmonlee/Filler (preferably stall breaker) Playstyles are always gonna be using the same sorts of pokemon, people just got hyped on Shuckle teams.

 

[aVocado]

They pretty much are, Hazard Setter/Doublade/Sharpedo/Yanmega/Hitmonlee/Filler (preferably stall breaker) Playstyles are always gonna be using the same sorts of pokemon, people just got hyped on Shuckle teams.

Playstyles don't get as stale as shuckle offense though, and aren't pretty much the exact same copy of other teams.. and most importantly, not as overcentralizing. Before Shuckle was popularized/discovered, even with Lass still in the tier, there were plenty of teams and all playstyles were as viable and even equally seen, in lass suspect test it was mostly shuckle with a bit of lass, and in shuckle's test it was all either shuckle, shuckle counterteaming, or the occasional stall popularized by certain few players.

 

[Molk]

Hey everyone, you might've heard this before, but i'm going to say it here officially, after all the votes came in Shuckle was banned from RU in an overwhelming supermajority. A new np thread should be coming sometime tommorow and this thread will be locked afterwards, Spirit feel free to gif.

Link to voting: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ru-stage-2-suspect-voting.3511256/page-4

which means 89% of people voted to remove shuckle

 

[ForgottenOnes]

i dunno

 

[phantom]

On a lighter note, I also want to touch on the recent discussion of this thread. A few of you may remember a thread I made a few weeks ago entitled "The Baton Pass Effect." It was quickly pointed out to me that simply creating a thread like that was inappropriate, and I promptly removed it after about 15 minutes. As a quick side note, I would like to reiterate my apology for this; I was originally mistaken in thinking that tier shifts were every month, rather than every three months, which is why I thought this matter was a lot more urgent that it actually is. Nonetheless, the point I was trying to make is still worth discussing.

For those that didn't see the thread, the following pretty much sums up my concerns:



The popularity of Baton Pass in the OU metagame really screwed with the usage stats. A lot. It brought weird Baton Pass using Pokemon like Mr. Mime into OU, as well as some very odd counters like Quagsire. None of these Pokemon really should've been there in the first place. As a flow on effect, a number of Pokemon which were less relevant in the Baton Pass metagame dropped to UU. Next tier shift, this saturation of OU Pokemon in the UU metagame will cause a number of UU threats to drop to RU. Some of the UU drops will be healthy for the RU metagame, but many will not be. At the same time, thanks to the Baton Pass ban and restabilisation of the OU metagame, UU will lose many of the new toys it acquired in May, and start to claim back many of the Pokemon which drop to RU. Many of the UU-RU drops will not survive one tier shift, and it is important to keep this in mind when deciding whether or not to allow them into RU.