Metagame NP: RU Stage 2.5: Kids (READ POST #265)

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1- I could definitely see this happening. Choice specs Tinted Lens is easily the best wallbreaker in the tier. Absolutely nothing wants switches in other than Registeel, which doesn't have reliable recovery, so it's switches are limited. Speed boost life orb is a fantastic late game sweeper that hits hard and after a couple turns is faster than everything in the metagame.

2- Of course it does, seeing at is can only come in twice with them up, but stealth rock isn't up every single turn of the match. Support in Defog and Rapid spin also exist.

3- No. Zoroark has the ability to eliminate any pokemon it wants in the game with its wide movepool and illusion. It's versatility outweighs that of Yanmega, and I believe is a more urgent problem to deal with.

4- I've only used Yanmega on one team. With Choice Specs and Sticky Web support, it demolished mid game and cleared through teams. I've faced a lot of them on the ladder, both sets. Keeping my pokemon to check it as healthy as possible is key, and if it gets a couple flinches with air slash I'm basically done for.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
Hey for your information guys if Zoroark copies a pressure Pokemon like for instance Moltres it will not say Moltres is exerting pressure (its a zoroark!). also the same thing if it copies any similar ability like Mold Breaker
 

PokèManiac Livio

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1) With the effective ban of Sticky Web, in addition to the usual role of late game sweeper (well known Life Orb Speed Boost) Yanmega takes the role that Clawitzer and Exploud covered before the ban, Choice Specs Tinted Lens in fact destroy almost every mons in the tier, has basically no counters, and can only be checked by few defensive threat such as Registeel, Licklicky or Togetic (it also has 30% Flinch rate with Air Slash to try to break them). Good Typing and mediocre defensive stats also allow it to resist to common priority leaving do its job quite easily. An eventual suspect would not surprise anyone.

2) Yanmega' s Stealth Rock weakness absolutely doesn t balance its power, while late game sweeper has only need to enter once in field to do its job and it doesnt care if it s 50% or 100% Hp, Choice Specs one can be easily supported by hazard cleaners of the tier, especially defog runners, it can also defend itself preventing hazard in early game.

3)I can t say exactly, but i think it s less. Zoroark takes advantage from these types of pokemon, and these pokemon take advantage from Zoroark. Yanmega is in fact a great partner too, thanks to its resistence 4x to fight, 2x to Bugs and above all forcing the entry of a special wall, that can safely be weakened by masked Zoroark's knock off or could be setup fodder of an eventual SD set. Yanmega is also more predictable than Zoroark, first of all because when you face a Yanmenga you are pretty sure it is Yanmega (unless it has as its mate Zoroark) lol, and then because unlike zoroark it has only 2 possible sets (with some Hp Fire or Shadow Ball variant) wich can be checked by certain pokemon, there s a reason if one is considered S rank while other "just" A(+).

4) I played both LO and Choice Specs and found the second one better because of its ability to do significant damage without the paved ground. I also played against both and found the second more difficult to deal with, is more difficult to plan how to defeat it because you cant know when he enters (maybe on a fight mon, so knock off, but i cant really know it) and when it leaves the field, it makes the play much more difficult, and if the opponent is good is little that can be done.
 

SilentVerse

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Our great and powerful leader Molk has requested more reasoning as to why Zoroark should be suspected, so I will post why I think it is suspect worthy :).

First off, I will start this by saying that I don't feel Zoroark is as blatantly broken as a lot of the other things that have gone through the RU suspect process. However, it is also undeniable that Zoroark is an extremely powerful Pokemon. With the Steel nerf and Knock Off buff, Zoroark has gained a ton of power, as not much resists Dark now and since RU has so few Mega Evolutions, few things can take Knock Off well. Zoroark's strong Knock Off in tandem with a powerful STAB Sucker Punch make it a strong Pokemon on its own, and pair that with things like access to Pursuit, a good Speed tier and attacking stats, and a wide movepool with a variety of cool coverage options and set up moves, and you have a Pokemon that is very strong on its own merits. In fact, on these qualities alone, Zoroark would probably easily still be worthy of A rank in the viability thread.

The thing that breaks Zoroark though, is easily the combination of its qualities alongside Illusion. Illusion allows Zoroark to create incredibly skewed mindgames that can very easily put opponents into a terrible position. For example, let's say you have a Slowking out. Your opponent brings out their Meloetta (that you know is Specs), and you know they have a Zoroark on their team. You can either a) hope that this is a Zoroark and go to a Gurdurr that you have b) stay in and hope its a Meloetta c) go to something else that will take a boatload from either, but will hopefully be able to survive the incoming hit. Each possible play you can make is a risky one due to the fact that regardless of what you do, there is a very good chance that you will get trucked by an extremely powerful attack. Meanwhile, the risk your opponent faces is minimal, because regardless of which Pokemon he sent out, there isn't an absolutely terrible consequence. If they have a Zoroark out, all they have to do is Knock Off. If you went to Gurdurr, they still were able to remove Gurdurr's item, severely reducing its bulk, and if they kept Slowking in, they just lost their Slowking. Of course, the downside is that if you had LO, Zoroark is now obvious, but this can even be mitigated by the use of items such as Dread Plate, or the use of LO on the Pokemon you wish to disguise Zoroark as. Similarly, if you sent out Meloetta, if they went to Gurdurr, they lost a crucial Pokemon that stopped Zoroark, while if they stayed in, they still would be forced to take some damage from Meloetta's attack, and you would take a small amount of damage and possibly be burned by Scald.

You can say this is part of the game, and that since prediction is a crucial part of Pokemon, if you guess wrong, you deserve to lose that Pokemon. However, the thing that separates Zoroark from other prediction games is that it is a much more safe prediction game for the person using Zoroark. For example, mispredicting Sucker Punch or Protect can give your opponent a chance to set up things that will threaten your team or cripple your Pokemon with status, which creates a relatively balanced risk / reward. However, if your opponent correctly predicts Zoroark, your position isn't really THAT much worse for much of the time, which is what makes Zoroark such a cancerous Pokemon for RU. Yes, to an extent this sort of mindgame is limited to only the early stages of the game, where Zoroark and much of your Pokemon are stilled unscathed, making the bluff more effective, but against a lot of teams, particular more offensive or balanced ones, those few turns are more than enough time to turn the tide of the game in your favour through the bluff.

tl;dr Zoroark is a relatively low risk, high reward Pokemon that is exceptionally good at creating situations that put opponents in a bad spot with little effort. The ease at which it can lure out and destroy a lot of counters for certain Pokemon through these mindgames makes it a Pokemon that should be looked at through a suspect test at the very least :).


Also Yanmega is just a dumb and should be suspected asap imo. Specs Tinted Lens trucks slower teams that don't have a Registeel, and Registeel is very easy to remove with the help of CB Dugtrio. Registeel can even be worn down with Yanmega itself through repeated Tinted Lens Bug Buzzes, so sometimes Dugtrio support is not even necessary. LO Speed Boost is hard for faster teams to deal with, b/c Yanmega is extremely strong and surprisingly resistant to priority due to its surprisingly decent bulk. Even though its SR weakness sucks majorly, with so many good spinners / defoggers in RU, it's easy to work around, and once Stealth Rock is off the field, it's easy for Yanmega to come in on things like Amoonguss or Virizion and start putting huge amounts of pressure on opponents. It's not even a difficult Pokemon to use, because the Specs set can simply spam its STABs to nuke whatever it wants. Plz let this have a test b/c it is a dumb.
 
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CyclicCompound

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I'm going to talk a bit about Yanmega because I've used it on multiple teams lately and I have some thoughts to say. To be honest, I'm okay with Speed Boost sets because Life Orb recoil + the greater variety of Pokemon that can at the very least check Yanmega if they're healthy is enough that I don't think it's a problem. Don't get me wrong, it's an awesome attacker but I don't think it's necessarily unhealthy for the metagame nor broken.

On the other hand, Tinted Lens is what I think deserves to be suspected. The problem with the Tinted Lens set is that everything slower than it has a poor matchup against it with very little exceptions, Registeel and Specially Defensive Golbat being the only ones that doesn't take ridiculous amounts of damage in the process, and nearly everything faster than it is OHKO'd by one of Yanmega's moves, so very few faster checks can switch into it. The fact that so little prediction is required - I would definitely argue that Bug Buzz is the right move a good 75% of the time - removes a lot of the skill factor. I know that's a really cliche statement, but seriously, when you dominate so much of the metagame with a single move, it really makes things a little too easy.

And speaking of the skill factor, I think the one of the stupidest things about Tinted Lens Yanmega is that it gets U-turn, which for some reason I don't see or hear much of. U-turn takes one of Yanmega's only checks, Registeel, and directly leads to its death due to the inevitable CB Dugtrio. There is no guessing involved, no outplaying, no chance to double switch at all. It is a smooth execution, and unless the threat in front of Yanmega is such a high-priority target that Yanmega is forced into Bug Buzz (a rare situation against most teams using Registeel), it's almost always the best option against any team with a Registeel in it. U-turn helps against beating Golbat too, as it's not hard to send in something with a powerful physical or super effective attack to scare it out and wear it down. If you happen to get Stealth Rock up on their side, you've basically won against Golbat, too. In other words, Yanmega has two defensive checks and both are pretty easy to beat with U-turn. That takes the skill that's usually required to beat checks and counters and stomps all over it.

If Yanmega does end up being suspected, I would like to see an option to only ban Tinted Lens, which is in my opinion the set that has the most unhealthy impact on the metagame. Speed Boost is worth suspecting too but I'm really not sold on its unhealthiness. I don't necessarily think it needs to be suspected immediately (Zoroark is probably more important) but I think it should be considered for one in the near future.

Also in case anyone's interested, Leavanny alongside the Yanmega + Dugtrio core can screw over most teams that don't run Golbat.

As for my thoughts on Zoroark, my feelings are mixed, but overall I don't really like it. Illusion is just too good at either letting you lure in and smash walls against defensive teams, or get a single boost against offensive teams, which is usually enough to sweep mid- to late-game. It does admittedly have a good number of checks, but the fact that you don't know what to check it with until after its disguise is ruined, plus the fact that it's usually boosted by the time you get a chance to check it makes it that much harder to deal with. It has some issues such as its frailty and the inability to do anything about hazard damage and status, but the fact that it forces the opponent to have to choose between possibly letting Zoroark sweep their team or possibly making a really stupid move (e.g. Mach Punching a Slowking that MIGHT be a Zoroark) makes Zoroark unnecessarily difficult to play around.
 
I'm going to talk a bit about Yanmega because I've used it on multiple teams lately and I have some thoughts to say. To be honest, I'm okay with Speed Boost sets because Life Orb recoil + the greater variety of Pokemon that can at the very least check Yanmega if they're healthy is enough that I don't think it's a problem. Don't get me wrong, it's an awesome attacker but I don't think it's necessarily unhealthy for the metagame nor broken.

On the other hand, Tinted Lens is what I think deserves to be suspected. The problem with the Tinted Lens set is that everything slower than it has a poor matchup against it with very little exceptions, Registeel and Specially Defensive Golbat being the only ones that doesn't take ridiculous amounts of damage in the process, and nearly everything faster than it is OHKO'd by one of Yanmega's moves, so very few faster checks can switch into it. The fact that so little prediction is required - I would definitely argue that Bug Buzz is the right move a good 75% of the time - removes a lot of the skill factor. I know that's a really cliche statement, but seriously, when you dominate so much of the metagame with a single move, it really makes things a little too easy.

And speaking of the skill factor, I think the one of the stupidest things about Tinted Lens Yanmega is that it gets U-turn, which for some reason I don't see or hear much of. U-turn takes one of Yanmega's only checks, Registeel, and directly leads to its death due to the inevitable CB Dugtrio. There is no guessing involved, no outplaying, no chance to double switch at all. It is a smooth execution, and unless the threat in front of Yanmega is such a high-priority target that Yanmega is forced into Bug Buzz (a rare situation against most teams using Registeel), it's almost always the best option against any team with a Registeel in it. U-turn helps against beating Golbat too, as it's not hard to send in something with a powerful physical or super effective attack to scare it out and wear it down. If you happen to get Stealth Rock up on their side, you've basically won against Golbat, too. In other words, Yanmega has two defensive checks and both are pretty easy to beat with U-turn. That takes the skill that's usually required to beat checks and counters and stomps all over it.

If Yanmega does end up being suspected, I would like to see an option to only ban Tinted Lens, which is in my opinion the set that has the most unhealthy impact on the metagame. Speed Boost is worth suspecting too but I'm really not sold on its unhealthiness. I don't necessarily think it needs to be suspected immediately (Zoroark is probably more important) but I think it should be considered for one in the near future.

Also in case anyone's interested, Leavanny alongside the Yanmega + Dugtrio core can screw over most teams that don't run Golbat.

As for my thoughts on Zoroark, my feelings are mixed, but overall I don't really like it. Illusion is just too good at either letting you lure in and smash walls against defensive teams, or get a single boost against offensive teams, which is usually enough to sweep mid- to late-game. It does admittedly have a good number of checks, but the fact that you don't know what to check it with until after its disguise is ruined, plus the fact that it's usually boosted by the time you get a chance to check it makes it that much harder to deal with. It has some issues such as its frailty and the inability to do anything about hazard damage and status, but the fact that it forces the opponent to have to choose between possibly letting Zoroark sweep their team or possibly making a really stupid move (e.g. Mach Punching a Slowking that MIGHT be a Zoroark) makes Zoroark unnecessarily difficult to play around.
I agree that the tinted lens set is definitely the better one on Yanmega, but it's important to note that if we suspect yanmega it'll be a suspect on the pokemon as a whole. Otherwise tiering gets stupid complicated and you get things like "why can't I use Deo-S in UU if it carries an iron ball?".
 

aVocado

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Yeah, there's not much sense in complex bans for Yanmega. Even the speed boost set is -that- good, especially since, as I explained in my previous post, it doesn't auto-lose to priority (mach punch specifically) like Sharpedo does.
 

termi

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While some legitimate points are being brought up about Zoroark and the fact that he is one of the most threatening mons in the tier as of now (hell, I was the one to bring it up for S rank in the viability thread), I really don't feel like Zoroark should be banned. A potential suspect test could be at hand, but as of now people seem to be bandwagonning more than that they legitimately feel like Zoroark is something that must be urgently removed from the metagame and back that claim up with good arguments. I'd at least wait for a while until the heat dies down before even suspecting it. Now I don't think many people here are of the opinion that Zoroark would be even considered broken without Illusion, so I'd like to specifically focus on that point. Now under perfect circumstances, the Illusion ruse will surely take out one mon at least, but how often does a perfect situation, as described in SV's post, actually occur? In order for the Illusion ruse to work, you have to make sure that:

a) Nor Zoroark, nor the mon that Zoroark wants to disguise as, has taken any previous damage, otherwise it's easy to see through the ruse.
b) In case the mon Zoroark wants to diguise as is more or less affected by hazards than Zoroark, hazards are kept off the field
c) Either mon gets in without taking damage (so usually they can only really come in after you sacced something or on a double switch

Now with these three premises in mind, is Illusion really that big of a deal? Even if these three conditions have been met, the Zoroark user is not necessarily in a situation where he gets to sweep the opposing team or take out multiple mons. Even if he does end up taking something out, that's it, because usually after that LO damage and hazards damage have done their work and allow the opponent to see whether or not he is fighting Zoroark the next time it comes in. I don't see the problem with Zoroark being in an advantageous position when the Zoroark user had to put effort into it for it to work to its fullest extent. It's called skill, if you can properly support a Pokemon you deserve to be in an advantageous position.

Also, let's not forget that Zoroark has flaws too: In particular its pitiful bulk means that it absolutely cannot take a hit, meaning that getting it in requires some great double switching, VoltTurn support or a sac. When you build around it, Zoroark is an extremely threatening mon, no doubt, but I think people have become a little too eager to bandwagon and say that it should be banned.

Yanmega, on the other hand, is something I would like to see gone. Its Specs set in particular is ridiculous, not only is it extremely strong, but it also does not promote skillful play in the slightest bit. See, thanks to Tinted Lens the Yanmega user literally doesn't have to predict: Versus bulkier teams, all it has to do is switch in and spam its STAB because next to nothing is taking it anyway. Also, unlike Zoroark, Yanmega can come in on its own due to having pretty good physical bulk as well as a 4x resistance and an immunity. In addition to its Specs set, it also has the LO Speed Boost set, which is immensely threatening to fast offense (especially considering how fast offense only has one priority user that can OHKO Yanmega after rocks (Zoroark, ironically), unlike Sharpedo, which is killed by a lot more things and cannot switch in nearly as easily as Yan), making it versatile. My main concern with Yanmega is just how little skill it takes to use this thing. The Specs set literally just has to spam a STAB move to kill things, it requirs absolutely zero prediction once it's in, and the LO set isn't much better in that regard because it outspeeds anything without priority and smacks shit lategame anyway. SR is the only real hindrance to Yanmega, but it doesn't even require rocks to be gone lest it becomes deadweight because especially the LO set only requires one switchin anyway to smack shit (it's a lategame cleaner et all). I just don't find a mon that requires so little skill to use to be a positive influence in the meta and I would definitely be in favor of a suspect test somewhere in the near future.
 

phantom

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a) Nor Zoroark, nor the mon that Zoroark wants to disguise as, has taken any previous damage, otherwise it's easy to see through the ruse.
b) In case the mon Zoroark wants to diguise as is more or less affected by hazards than Zoroark, hazards are kept off the field
c) Either mon gets in without taking damage (so usually they can only really come in after you sacced something or on a double switch
You could just lead with Zoroark or have a mon that takes neutral damage to SR be the Pokemon that Zoroark disguises itself as. It really isn't that hard. .-.

Now with these three premises in mind, is Illusion really that big of a deal?
Yes, because systematically forcing a "50/50" turn one on a very powerful Pokemon capable of fully exploiting the situation is very devastating.

Even if these three conditions have been met, the Zoroark user is not necessarily in a situation where he gets to sweep the opposing team or take out multiple mons.
Taking out just one is good enough. A Zoroark disguised turn one as a Delphox can easily take out a stall team's Slowking because stall has to switch into Slowking the minute they see Delphox, they don't have much of a choice. Guess what happens next? The one Pokemon stopping Delphox from steamrolling their team is gone, and now that Pokemon in question can do just that. It doesn't have to take out multiple mons to be effective, simply sniping one is a huge deal. Given how much RU has Pokemon similar to Delphox, where teams typically rely on one Pokemon to beat a certain threat due to the fact that multiple checks tend to create reduncies in their builds, then you can see how such an offensively customizable (and powerful) lure (literally a perfect one at that due to how cancerous Illusion is) can be really tricky to handle.

Let's also not forget that offensive teams don't carry the bulkiest Pokemon in the world, capitalizing on a forced switch when disguised as a certain Pokemon lets Zoroark get of an easy Swords Dance. A Pokemon with 105 Atk stat, 105 Speed, STAB Knock Off, and STAB Sucker Punch isn't exactly the easiest thing to deal with. It's very difficult to revenge kill due to these qualities and it's hard to simply tank a hit from it due to its obscene power after a boost. So yes, if it sets up a free Swords Dance vs an offensive team just mid game, it might as well be gg at that point.

Even if he does end up taking something out, that's it, because usually after that LO damage and hazards damage have done their work and allow the opponent to see whether or not he is fighting Zoroark the next time it comes in.
You really have to take into consideration that a lot of teams don't have stacks on stacks of checks for threat X, taking out their one Pokemon in such a cheap way is a lot more devastating than you make it sound.

I don't see the problem with Zoroark being in an advantageous position when the Zoroark user had to put effort into it for it to work to its fullest extent.
You really don't put that much effort, it takes like two minutes tops when you're team building to come up with appropriate Zoroark partners, and again, those "perfect situations that have to met" kinda thing that you're going on about are all null when taking into account that leading is a very real (and effective) possibility.

It's called skill
I don't know about you, but guesswork is literally the antithesis of "skill".

Also, let's not forget that Zoroark has flaws too: In particular its pitiful bulk means that it absolutely cannot take a hit, meaning that getting it in requires some great double switching, VoltTurn support or a sac.
Of course it has flaws, what doesn't? But do those flaws you listed actually tie in to its given role? The answer is no. Zoroark's job isn't to take hits, so "pitiful bulk" isn't a flaw relevant to how it performs. With Illusion, Zoroark is meant to act as the perfect lure or a potent set up sweeper. For the latter, you might have been on the money by listing "pitiful bulk" as a flaw; however, Illusion grants Zoroark all the set up opportunities in the world, so the bulk is hardly a deterrent in that respect. Does the bulk really matter that much when it can oneshot what it needs to or force all the switches it wants in order to set up?
 
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Agree w/ Spirit.

Yanmega is way more manageable than Zoroark, first point is that you know that is a Yanmega to begin with lol Stealth Rock x4 weakness means that you're forced to use a solid spinner / defogger which sometimes is not possible because your opponent can use spinbloker, taunters and offensive pressure to keep Stealth Rock on their field. Another thing on Zoroark side is the speed base 105 + best priority on the game being able to sweep with Sword Dance + Sucker Punch against faster things, or Sucker Punch to donk faster things like Jolteon even w/o boost, the extra speed between Yanmega and Zoroark one is very significant also their priority + the option the boost with Sword Dance (+ no comments about that is disguise as another mon!!).

How you can deal with Zoroark?
Hardly on offense/balance because can disguise any pokemon on your team and you can take advantage about that depending on the opposite team, so Illusion is an advantage that you have over your opponent, is not even a 50-50 because this is usually 50-50 for you or for your opponent, Zoroark Illusion is more like 90-10 in favour of Zoroark user about you're being OK in case that he predict a Zoroark or killing a key mon which is supposed to check/counter the true pokemon so that means that you'll lose one of your checks/counters for late game in early game, and someone call tell me how to deal with that being realistic? No.

About Yanmega if you decides using Tinted Lens Modest (that nature for example) means that you're really slow compared with your bulk and power along with the metagame - you're slower than a lot of offensive stuff which can HKO back you in a turn, omnipresent Stealth Rock in any game and still slower and v bulky/defensive stuff can check Yanmega like Aromatisse, Registeel, Doublade, Escavalier, Lickilicky.

tldr I can see Yanmega being broken or at least suspect worth because how 2 great sets have and how spammeable is the Tinted Lens set but Zoroark is by far broken, actually I should quickbanned Zoroark on this tier .-.
 
I personally think Zoroark is probably suspect worthy, but not ban worthy.

First of all I think people hype up Illusion far too much, they always talk about it as if they are in the perfect scenario where:

a) Zoroark and the pokemon it's disguised as are affected the same by hazards.
b) have both taken the exact same damage throughout the match.
c) The pokemon Zoroark is disguised as is able to beat/threaten any Zoroark Check the opponent may have.

This sort of scenario can only occur basically once in like the first 5 turns since:

a) After Life Orb recoil identifying Zoroark is easy, even if they carry another pokemon which is affected the same by hazards and is running LO (which is very rare) they have to have taken the exact same amount of LO recoil, which obviously isn't likely.
b) The Pokemon that Zoroark disguises itself as commonly don't run LO or are affected differently by Hazards, Meloetta and Exploud both commonly run Specs, and Delphox and Moltres take more damage from Hazards.
c) After a few turns of switching the order you chose at the beginning of the battle has likely changed, meaning you won't necessarily have the right pokemon in the 6th slot.

Illusion can be useful of course, but not to the extent made out in some of these posts.

The only thing that could make Zoroark broken is his versatility. Zoroark has great mixed attacking stats, as well as boosting moves for both stats in Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, making it very unpredictable. It can also, aside from the basically staple Knock Off and Sucker Punch run a myriad of attacks to take down specific walls such as Grass Knot for Rhyperior, HP Ice for Gligar, Extrasensory for Gurdurr and Flamethrower for Tangrowth/Escavalier, and Pursuit even for things that know you're a Zoroark and try to escape such as Slowking. There's also Choice sets and U-Turn but these aren't as effective imo.

It can't be running every move obviously, so It's going to have a myriad of Checks regardless of the set, but initially scouting and switching in to the set is difficult outside of specific pokemon that I detailed in my last post (Fairies, Bulky Darks/Fighters).

However I believe Zoroark's frailty to be the thing that keeps it in check, It simply cannot find opportunities to switch in, especially when you consider Mixed sets are forced to run -Def natures, which makes already low Defences even worse. The only times it can really come in are after a team-mate has died or a slow Volt/Turn, which are rare.

Overall then, Illusion is useful but incredibly overhyped, Zoroark is very versatile but can't beat everything, and there are a fair few good universal Checks/Counters, and finally it's so frail that it finds limited opportunities to come in aside from sacrificing team-mates. So overall I find it far from broken, just very good.

Also yh if a pokemon takes 4 months to be even considered for suspect, it was probs quickban material.

And I also like to throw out my support for a Yanmega suspect for reasons stated in SV's post.
 
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Texas Cloverleaf

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I'm not yet satisfied with the arguments against Zoroark because I think people haven't addressed two big components of using Zoro.

A) Zoroark cannot switch in, barring a double switch, without losing illusion. Not to mention it's pitiful bulk.

B) the second Illusion is broken, or is otherwise revealed through passive damage or team line up the factor that pushes Zoro over the edge for some people disappears.

I want to see some of the more strong pro-ban people to address the above points in their arguments about Zoro's brokenness as they have as of yet been ignored.


Edit: afro is a ninja nigga who provided anti-ban arguments to the above. Pro-banners got work to do
 

Ares

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While there is no doubt that Zoroark is a very strong pokemon I dont think that it is as broken as people are making it out to be. I agree with the points that both Afro Smash and Texas Cloverleaf have brought up. And would also like to add 2 things on. Once a player gets rocks up it is fairly easy to tell the difference between Zoroark and the real deal after one switch in from it. Also Zoroark is weak to a pretty common priority in fighting. Fighting also resists zoro's priority which while strong isnt enough to take out Gurdurr/Hitmonchan/Hitmonlee. While their mach punch is enough to take out Zoro. And like Texas Cloverleaf said, "Pro-banners got work to do"

Also supporting the Yanmega suspect nomination, agreeing with reasons stated above.
And as a user of tinted lense Yanmega, here is what I've mostly done while using it. 85% of the time I hit Bug Buzz because it can 2HKO/OHKO pretty much everything. 5% of the time I hit Giga Drain when I was against a lead Rhyperior or a Mola, because bug buzz doesnt kill either from full while giga drain does. The other 10% I used air slash, either against a fighting type or when they had an aromatisse where I needed some airslash flinches to get the kill. All in all just hitting bug buzz is to easy and the only thing that could take a bug buzz well is registeel. Aromatisse takes about 40% usually and after rocks and spikes it can be 2hkod.
 
To respond to the Tinted Lens "ban", by virtue of how bans work in Smogon (I think, feel free to correct me), this would create a ban on Butterfree, Illumise, Mothim, and Noctowl using the ability Tinted Lens in RU or NU.
 

Ares

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To respond to the Tinted Lens "ban", by virtue of how bans work in Smogon (I think, feel free to correct me), this would create a ban on Butterfree, Illumise, Mothim, and Noctowl using the ability Tinted Lens in RU or NU.
Yes, yes it would. And those pokemon are by no means broken with that ability. Its the same thing that people brought up when they said lets just ban sticky web on Shuckle. If they had banned just sticky web then pokes like leavanny would also be banned from NU and RU. Unless the move/ability is broken on multiple pokemon just banning the pokemon that is the problem is usually the best course of action.
 
I'm not yet satisfied with the arguments against Zoroark because I think people haven't addressed two big components of using Zoro.

A) Zoroark cannot switch in, barring a double switch, without losing illusion. Not to mention it's pitiful bulk.

B) the second Illusion is broken, or is otherwise revealed through passive damage or team line up the factor that pushes Zoro over the edge for some people disappears.

I want to see some of the more strong pro-ban people to address the above points in their arguments about Zoro's brokenness as they have as of yet been ignored.


Edit: afro is a ninja nigga who provided anti-ban arguments to the above. Pro-banners got work to do
Why do people make such a big thing about ruining Illusion. Even if the opponent knows he still has to guess wheter it is Swords Dance, Choice Specs or mixed. Zoroark still is a threatening Pokemon even without Illusion. People act like if Illusion is down Zoroark is useless while it is actually still good even without Illusion ( Albeit not as good ).
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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Why do people make such a big thing about ruining Illusion. Even if the opponent knows he still has to guess wheter it is Swords Dance, Choice Specs or mixed. Zoroark still is a threatening Pokemon even without Illusion. People act like if Illusion is down Zoroark is useless while it is actually still good even without Illusion ( Albeit not as good ).
Given numerous people have said, verbatim, "Illusion is what pushes Zoroark from regular suspect to broken" I'd say it's a fairly big thing.
 

SilentVerse

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While some legitimate points are being brought up about Zoroark and the fact that he is one of the most threatening mons in the tier as of now (hell, I was the one to bring it up for S rank in the viability thread), I really don't feel like Zoroark should be banned. A potential suspect test could be at hand, but as of now people seem to be bandwagonning more than that they legitimately feel like Zoroark is something that must be urgently removed from the metagame and back that claim up with good arguments. I'd at least wait for a while until the heat dies down before even suspecting it. Now I don't think many people here are of the opinion that Zoroark would be even considered broken without Illusion, so I'd like to specifically focus on that point. Now under perfect circumstances, the Illusion ruse will surely take out one mon at least, but how often does a perfect situation, as described in SV's post, actually occur? In order for the Illusion ruse to work, you have to make sure that:

a) Nor Zoroark, nor the mon that Zoroark wants to disguise as, has taken any previous damage, otherwise it's easy to see through the ruse.
b) In case the mon Zoroark wants to diguise as is more or less affected by hazards than Zoroark, hazards are kept off the field
c) Either mon gets in without taking damage (so usually they can only really come in after you sacced something or on a double switch

Now with these three premises in mind, is Illusion really that big of a deal? Even if these three conditions have been met, the Zoroark user is not necessarily in a situation where he gets to sweep the opposing team or take out multiple mons. Even if he does end up taking something out, that's it, because usually after that LO damage and hazards damage have done their work and allow the opponent to see whether or not he is fighting Zoroark the next time it comes in. I don't see the problem with Zoroark being in an advantageous position when the Zoroark user had to put effort into it for it to work to its fullest extent. It's called skill, if you can properly support a Pokemon you deserve to be in an advantageous position.
The situation happens a lot more often than you would think honestly. I've lost and won probably about a third of the RUgged mountain games I've played off Zoroark mindgames lol, so it's not a terribly uncommon thing if you know what you're doing (and tbh the only reason this isn't more is b/c I switched to using stall after getting donked by Zoroark so much lel). Getting Zoroark in without taking damage is not hard when you have access to things like U-turn and Defog Gligar, Volt Switch Rotom-C, Volt Switch Cobalion, and other similar things in the tier. Similarly, due to how easy it can be to remove hazards in RU, the field is hazardless for a surprising amount of the time vs good players (at least, from my experiences in RUgged mountain), which means that Zoroark can bluff as things like Cobalion a decent amount of the time. As a result, the three conditions you outlined are not hard to achieve, and don't really take that much support or skill to obtain.

Also, let's not forget that Zoroark has flaws too: In particular its pitiful bulk means that it absolutely cannot take a hit, meaning that getting it in requires some great double switching, VoltTurn support or a sac. When you build around it, Zoroark is an extremely threatening mon, no doubt, but I think people have become a little too eager to bandwagon and say that it should be banned.
This actually brings me to a big point that I'd like to talk about regarding Zoroark; you don't even really have to build around it at all! On a lot of the more recent teams I've build, I've been able to just throw it on teams a lot of the time. This is because, as I mentioned in my previous example, Zoroark is just a really safe Pokemon. Because the Illusion mindgame is one that you have full control over, it is rarely one that is risky for the user, so for any Pokemon that appreciates having certain Pokemon removed, Zoroark is an easy Pokemon to simply slap on. Maybe it's just my teambuilding style, but I just find that Zoroark is extremely easy to fit on a team and use and very rewarding. It has its set of flaws, yeah, but it's such a safe and powerful Pokemon that on offensive teams there is little reason not to use it.
 
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Well usually I play zoroark by sending it out the first turn, because my main wincon is Swellow and most people on the ladder lead with their hazard setter which doesnt give a fuck about swellow. However instead they're nailed with HP Ice or Grass Knot and they lost a major counter and pokemon in general to Zoroark.

Anyway, I do not believe Zoroark in itself is broken, it is outclassed if it tries to go physical or special, and mixed is his best bet, However, the thing is that it provides the single most easy way to get rid of certain counters for certain Pokemon since it learns fucking every move you'd ever need, except for Ice Beam. The one thing that comes close to this is Dugtrio, but as I mentioned, getting rid of that one counter is just so valuable.

However, most of the time, after Zoroark has done it's job in removing that counter, since Illusion doesn't work that well after the first turn, it becomes useless and I often use it as KAMIKAZE mon, trying to dish out as much damage as possible before it dies.
 
4- I've only used Yanmega on one team. With Choice Specs and Sticky Web support, it demolished mid game and cleared through teams. I've faced a lot of them on the ladder, both sets. Keeping my pokemon to check it as healthy as possible is key, and if it gets a couple flinches with air slash I'm basically done for.
Let's not worry about Sticky Web right now since the main user of it has gone to BL2. Perhaps a suspect test of either Zoroark or Yanmega is worthwhile--Zoroark for its luring capabilities, and Yanmega for brute force. However, I think we should test Yanmega first, because unlike Zoroark, it takes very little skill to use. Just pair it with a reliable spinner/defogger (Hitmontop, etc.), maybe some rocks, and click Bug Buzz/Air Slash to watch things die. Not-as-good players can run rampant with it with minimal effort, whereas Zoroark takes some ingenuity to pull off the lures it needs (i.e. deciding who to disguise it as, what coverage moves to run, etc.). I'm not saying that Zoroark isn't suspect-worthy, but Yanmega is less healthy for the metagame for the reason I stated.
 

atomicllamas

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This thread 2 dead

One Pokemon I recently rediscovered in RU that I have found to be pretty cool is SD Samurott. I made a team around it during the Lass meta, but I actually think it has gotten to be better in the current meta than it was before.

Samurott @ Splash Plate / Lum Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 132 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Megahorn / Knock Off

This set is actually pretty anti-meta at the moment, as it is capable of dealing with many of the S and A+ rank pokemon as well as the typical catch-all physical wall which is Gligar (the Speed EVs are for 8 Speed Gligar and other base 85s). The thing that differentiates Samurott from Ferraligatr is the final moveslot which allows Samurott to really annoy the opponents Pokemon with Knock Off or it can more easily get past Grass-types with Megahorn.

For example it can OHKO Virizion at +2 after rocks, and it can take any move from Virizion if it isn't boosted.

+2 252+ Atk Samurott Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 313-369 (96.6 - 113.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Samurott: 264-312 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


It is actually pretty naturally bulky with 95/100/70 defenses making it a good offensive answer to Sharpedo, and the priority of Aqua Jet allows it to take out huge threats like Delphox, Moltres, and Hitmonlee. Splash Plate or Lum Berry is what I prefer as it appreciates the extra power from Splash Plate, but LO cuts down on its decent bulk, which I'm not a fan of. Lum Berry can allow you to set up on things that try to Scald you, or let you ignore a Toxic from a desperate Gligar.

But yeah, this is a pretty fun and anti-meta set atm, what have you guys been using that you feel is underrated?
 

HypnoEmpire

Yokatta...
atomicllamas you used max HP in your calc, but only 120 HP on the set. :P

Anyway, I found a set for Hitmonlee that was pretty interesting and I've been using it for a little while now.

Hitmonlee @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
-High Jump Kick
-Knock Off
-Stone Edge
-Rapid Spin

Whenever I see Hitmonlee, it's either LO or Normal Gem (I know, Fake Out Normal Gem is a terrible set, but I still see people running it). Life Orb is useful mid-game just to destroy stuff and (lol) Normal Gem is only good late-game. However, this set is useful throughout the match to destroy stuff and to clean up late-game. It doesn't have the kind of power Life Orb has, but Life Orb doesn't have the Speed that Choice Scarf brings. (lol) Normal Gem doesn't have the power that Reckless High Jump Kick though. Now, Endure + Liechi Berry is a good Unburden set, but it isn't something you would want to ever bring out early in the match as being forced to switch out means that it loses the Attack boost and and Unburden boost. This set doesn't have the power that either of these two sets can bring, but when I used it, I felt like it had just enough power. Adamant Base 120 Attack Reckless boosted High Jump Kick still hits really hard. I feel like the moves on the set are self-explanatory. I guess it can also run Close Combat for a more reliable STAB, but I haven't tried it and it seems like a poor option. Poison Jab to nail Aromatisse on the switch? I guess that works too. Even Earthquake for some Poison-types can work, I guess.

This set mainly works because it's unexpected. I have never seen anyone else run a scarfed Hitmonlee, so I will say this was my idea :3

Hi Hypno and kudos for the original idea I recommend two things:

  • Slash Mach Punch on Rapid Spin because Mach Punch allows you to revenge kill Scarfed Zoroark and low Hp Fletchinder and being locked into Rapid Spin isn't always a good idea and opens a free path for many pokes to set up and sweep.
  • Slash Close Combat on High Jump kick, I know the power drop sucks but Scarf Hitmonlee is supposed to clean up when everything is weakenned and sometimes missing a High Jump kick can cost you the game, it also sucks when your only STAB move is blocked by the common ghost types on the tier like Doublade and Spiritomb.
You can run this stuff too :)
 
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Mew2

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atomicllamas you used max HP in your calc, but only 120 HP on the set. :P

Anyway, I found a set for Hitmonlee that was pretty interesting and I've been using it for a little while now.

Hitmonlee @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
-High Jump Kick
-Knock Off
-Stone Edge
-Rapid Spin

Whenever I see Hitmonlee, it's either LO or Normal Gem (I know, Fake Out Normal Gem is a terrible set, but I still see people running it). Life Orb is useful mid-game just to destroy stuff and (lol) Normal Gem is only good late-game. However, this set is useful throughout the match to destroy stuff and to clean up late-game. It doesn't have the kind of power Life Orb has, but Life Orb doesn't have the Speed that Choice Scarf brings. (lol) Normal Gem doesn't have the power that Reckless High Jump Kick though. Now, Endure + Liechi Berry is a good Unburden set, but it isn't something you would want to ever bring out early in the match as being forced to switch out means that it loses the Attack boost and and Unburden boost. This set doesn't have the power that either of these two sets can bring, but when I used it, I felt like it had just enough power. Adamant Base 120 Attack Reckless boosted High Jump Kick still hits really hard. I feel like the moves on the set are self-explanatory. I guess it can also run Close Combat for a more reliable STAB, but I haven't tried it and it seems like a poor option. Poison Jab to nail Aromatisse on the switch? I guess that works too. Even Earthquake for some Poison-types can work, I guess.

This set mainly works because it's unexpected. I have never seen anyone else run a scarfed Hitmonlee, so I will say this was my idea :3
Hi Hypno and kudos for the original idea I recommend two things:

  • Slash Mach Punch on Rapid Spin because Mach Punch allows you to revenge kill Scarfed Zoroark and low Hp Fletchinder and being locked into Rapid Spin isn't always a good idea and opens a free path for many pokes to set up and sweep.
  • Slash Close Combat on High Jump kick, I know the power drop sucks but Scarf Hitmonlee is supposed to clean up when everything is weakenned and sometimes missing a High Jump kick can cost you the game, it also sucks when your only STAB move is blocked by the common ghost types on the tier like Doublade and Spiritomb.
 
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