Considering Hippowdon's been thrown into UU as of late, and doesn't seem to be receiving many complaints of OP-edness, would you think that Hippototas will soon be sent down to RU? Because I personally would like to see how perma-sand would affect the RU metagame.No Stoutland ;-;, but notwithstanding I would find it rather interesting. RU has some cool pokes in the sand, SV Gligar, Cacturne, and SR Sandslash (RU Dory?) to name a few, and it might (don't call me out on this) make Stall viable again.
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np: RU Stage 2 - Dancing Queen
- Thread starter Oglemi
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One of my personal favorite traits of the ru metagame is the lack of weather (ball parking here...hail in maybe 1out of 15 teams) , but I never considered weather to wage many wars in gen 4 ou and it was only hail and sand (obviously the dominant one). I don't think sand would be at all broken in ru. Mostly the lack of competitive presence snover and hippopatus present (nowhere near the level of their evolutions) somewhat offsets the advantages of the weather. My prediction: perma-weather will not be present on more than 1/8 of all teams.
Lack of weather is a great selling point RU has over the other metagames. However, if Hippopotas does come down from UU because of Hippowdon I don't really expect it to have as much of a dominant impact in the long run. This is mostly due to the lack of things to abuse weather (there is shit like Cacturne and Sand Rush Sandslash when/if it's released), who knows though, it might grow on people.
This is all just speculation btw
This is all just speculation btw
-DW Sandslash isn't OP at all in RU imo. Just because you have Sand Rush doesn't make you god. Sorry Sandslash lovers, having only 100 base Attack, being hit by TSpikes, and having a ton less HP and (slightly) less special bulk just adds up to something that seems great at first, but probably won't give you the results you want.
-In UU, Hippopotas was practically dead weight. If it got Rocks up, its mission was accomplished. I'm quite sure it will be the same in RU.
-Sand Veil Gligar is admittedly interesting, but probably won't be terribly meta-changing like Frosslass (me and my UU connections...)
-Cacturne can be a little dangerous in Sand, but is pretty easily played around, as they pretty much HAVE to use Sucker Punch.
-In UU, Hippopotas was practically dead weight. If it got Rocks up, its mission was accomplished. I'm quite sure it will be the same in RU.
-Sand Veil Gligar is admittedly interesting, but probably won't be terribly meta-changing like Frosslass (me and my UU connections...)
-Cacturne can be a little dangerous in Sand, but is pretty easily played around, as they pretty much HAVE to use Sucker Punch.
Just gonna throw it out there that DW Sandslash will be pretty good if hippopotas is around. I think Stoutland is a pretty good indicator of what a 100 base atk with a 100 base power STAB move can accomplish with Sand Rush. Sure it lacks the special bulk of Stoutland, but it has the sweet EdgeQuake coverage Stoutland wishes it had. I think it will make a pretty solid Swords Dancer, if not Choice Bander, should it be released while Hippopotas is in RU.
Little hippo isn't that bad either, it's pretty good at tanking physical attacks and phazing threats away. It's attack and HP are actually damn good for an eviolite abuser, and it has Roar, which most eviolite pokemon wish they have (starter nfe's).
Having two ground-types on the same team is really going to be the only disadvantage of Sand Rush sandslash abuse, and it may well end up being compensated by the power of sand abuse. Don't forget we have a lot of Rock-types available down here, and could be getting Sigilyph. I would be shocked if sand isn't at least viable.
Little hippo isn't that bad either, it's pretty good at tanking physical attacks and phazing threats away. It's attack and HP are actually damn good for an eviolite abuser, and it has Roar, which most eviolite pokemon wish they have (starter nfe's).
Having two ground-types on the same team is really going to be the only disadvantage of Sand Rush sandslash abuse, and it may well end up being compensated by the power of sand abuse. Don't forget we have a lot of Rock-types available down here, and could be getting Sigilyph. I would be shocked if sand isn't at least viable.
Really?
Because I run a set like this
Sandslash
Adamant
252attk/252spd/4HP
Life Orb
Earthquake
Stone Edge
X-Scissor/Shadow Claw
Swords Dance
And it works great whenever I use it, I'll try to find logs, but I used it in the OU metagame which isn't applicable to much here, but if he's effective in OU, then what about RU? if Hippo did drop down to RU, I'd expect to see him a lot more, considering he can also run as a Spinner as well, which would be extremely useful.
Ground isn't a bad typing because the only prority you end up being weak to is aqua jet, and that isn't extremely common in RU, and He can shrug of an Extremespeed Entei with his defenses.
Ive used him rather extensively too, having a pure ground type is more a boon then a negative in my opinion, and the fact that he has a slightly wider movepool doesn't hurt either.
Because I run a set like this
Sandslash
Adamant
252attk/252spd/4HP
Life Orb
Earthquake
Stone Edge
X-Scissor/Shadow Claw
Swords Dance
And it works great whenever I use it, I'll try to find logs, but I used it in the OU metagame which isn't applicable to much here, but if he's effective in OU, then what about RU? if Hippo did drop down to RU, I'd expect to see him a lot more, considering he can also run as a Spinner as well, which would be extremely useful.
Ground isn't a bad typing because the only prority you end up being weak to is aqua jet, and that isn't extremely common in RU, and He can shrug of an Extremespeed Entei with his defenses.
Ive used him rather extensively too, having a pure ground type is more a boon then a negative in my opinion, and the fact that he has a slightly wider movepool doesn't hurt either.
The problem with that is:
1. If you don't have Rest, it will eventually get beaten down.
2. As soon as you Power Split, if TR is not up, you lost your Shuckle, as you now have 10 base Defence
Power Split is not the same as Power Trick (or Power Swap for that matter). Power Split averages together yours and the opponents atk and spatk. Given Shuckle's crap offenses, they'll be left with a stat that's ~20-28 points higher than half of what it originally was. Shuckle, on the other hand, will end up with a low-to-decent atk stat for a wall, depending what you Split with. Power Trick is the move that swaps atk and def, while Power Swap trades boosts with your opponent.
Whether it will make Shuckle amazing is a different story, but I suppose if you're secured Toxic Spikes for the rest of the match Shuckle would be an effective staller.
Whether it will make Shuckle amazing is a different story, but I suppose if you're secured Toxic Spikes for the rest of the match Shuckle would be an effective staller.
Eh, I guess if you want to use Shuckle, feel free, but I would stick with Regirock, who has TWave, no crippling SR weakness and some level of actual offensive presence. And when I said that Sand Rush Sandslash could turn into an RU Dory in the sense that he would have enough offensive power that many common spinblockers would be somewhat turned off from switching into him, allowing him to spin hazards away with relative ease. Of course, these are all mere assumptions, but on paper it sounds rather appealing, at least to me.
I'm not convinced Sand is going to be as dominant as it is made out to be. Firstly, there are still a large number of choices fighting Pokemon running around, and outside of Ghosts Sand has a difficult time taking them. Aside from Shuckle, they have somewhat low Special Defense stats, making them particularly. Up stable not only to Hail teams, but also to threatening special sweepers such as Moltres and OTR Slowking, not to mention the Shell Smashers. Defensively I see them having a difficult time. As for Sandslash it really doesn't seem to be too difficult to beat, any Levitating Ghost will give it a hell of a time, and even Pokemon like Claydol I would imagine could be EVs to take a X-Scissor, striking back with Ice Beam. And then you have the bulky fuck named Alomomola who shuts it down, although admittedly can be predicted with Wish+Protect issues. Really the biggest issue I see with Sandslash is that there is very little it can set up on with impunity. The majority of the Pokemon I see in the metagame can either hit Sandslash with a SE move or can otherwise cripple it, Ferroseed and Munchlax for example can Leech Seed/Toxic or threaten with a paralysis respectively, those two being the least offensive Pokemon in RU. The only things I can see it setting up on are things like Choiced locked Krookodile, or perhaps an unboosted Klinklang.
tl;dr Sand may not be as dangerous as you think.
tl;dr Sand may not be as dangerous as you think.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
I am pretty sure Sandslash will be extremely good in RU. Sure 100 Base Atk isn't that high but its enough to attempt a late game sweep, especially because he is only outspeeded by scarf base 105s in Sand. He also has decent Defense to take the Priority attacks aimed at him.
Setting up is also not that hard because he can force out a lot of offensive Pokes. However i don't think he will be long in RU, UU is already loving Stoutland and Sandslash seems to be a lot better as a late game sweeper, because of its superior coverage.
Setting up is also not that hard because he can force out a lot of offensive Pokes. However i don't think he will be long in RU, UU is already loving Stoutland and Sandslash seems to be a lot better as a late game sweeper, because of its superior coverage.
even though RU seems to be very offensive at the time i am still having succes with a good old stall/bulky offense team with a regen core of tangrowth and slowking, anyone who says stall is dead in ru at the moment is flat out lying. People such as pwnemon and myself have reached very high rankings using bulky offense, Tangrowth can really take on all the fighters such as Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, and Hariyama and win. Audino is also another asset to stall being able to pass wishes to pokemon such as steelix who have no recovery. overall i would say that stall is still a viable playstyle in BW RU
and P.S i think sand wont be centralizing at all, if sandslash gets released we will just have another sweeper/offensive rapid spinner to deal with (that is walled by tangrowth)
and P.S i think sand wont be centralizing at all, if sandslash gets released we will just have another sweeper/offensive rapid spinner to deal with (that is walled by tangrowth)
With the suspect period ending three days from now, it would seem to be a good time to begin discussion on what people believe is suspect worthy. I am of the personal opinion that nothing is broken in the meta but there are several hot-button topics.
The main Pokemon that may be suspect include: Honchkrow, Lilligant, Sun teams, Hail teams.
I've also heard discussion about other aspects including Gallade and Rain teams.
So what do the members of the RU community believe is broken in the metagame or otherwise suspect worthy?
The main Pokemon that may be suspect include: Honchkrow, Lilligant, Sun teams, Hail teams.
I've also heard discussion about other aspects including Gallade and Rain teams.
So what do the members of the RU community believe is broken in the metagame or otherwise suspect worthy?
Honchkrow is only easy to deal with because everyone and their mother runs the MoxieKrow set. Never mind, I take that back. It's still hard to deal with: it's easier to deal with because of the predictability. Even then (with a predictable set that supposedly gives away efficiency), you pretty much need a Steel-type or a Physically Bulky Rock-type to cover it. I would definitely not complain if Honchkrow gets banned. With that simple Moxie set, Honch manages to seriously threaten every playstyle. And don't get me going on the Mixed set. Always manages to Lure Steelix / Rhydon / whatever in for 2HKO.
I've been torn on the issue of Lilligant. Its Hidden Power choice makes it harder to counter in some sense, but easier to counter in another. I guess Sawsbuck and Bouffalant are there as all-out counters, but really forcing someone to have those specific mons could mean ban-worthy as well so that's not a good example. Entei can deal with Lilli, and so can other special walls and other things depending on its HP. It's a lot more counter-able (not really a word I know) than Honchkrow. Oh, and Buck and Bouff are significantly harder to 'take advantage of,' unlike those slow Rock and Steel-types.
Gallade also deserves mention, I guess, but people need to realize this: if everyone runs the same Bulk Up set, don't expect it to be super effective. Swords Dance set is also pretty darn good and it plummets the weak responses that come in to wall Bulk Up Gallade. I feel that in general, you need the strength to overpower DP UU in order to overpower BW RU. Gallade was banned in DP UU so he does have the prerequisite--doesn't mean he's broken though. Argh, my words are being really unorganized, but the point is that while Gallade isn't broken, it certainly has the potential to be really good.
On the topic of weather, I haven't seen too many Sun and Rain teams, but they're annoyingly effective. I'm going to shy away from "oh it doesn't take skill" because admittedly I'm not super skilled either, but I'm sure that a lot of people believe Sun and Rain need some type of nerfing--I think I did make an argument of Uxie as a suspect because of her ability to make weather offense broken / borderline broken, but even I think that's some shady logic there. As for Hail, I don't think it's broken at all. It's all in the teambuilding. With Cryogonal and careful play, you're really not getting beat unless you're playing against a really really good hail team. Hail really needs a team built around, and it's nowhere near an auto-win.
TL;DR: Honch and Sun/Rain is the closest to needing a suspect vote, Lilligant is somewhere in the middle, Hail and Gallade is theoretically good but doesn't work as well in practice.
I've been torn on the issue of Lilligant. Its Hidden Power choice makes it harder to counter in some sense, but easier to counter in another. I guess Sawsbuck and Bouffalant are there as all-out counters, but really forcing someone to have those specific mons could mean ban-worthy as well so that's not a good example. Entei can deal with Lilli, and so can other special walls and other things depending on its HP. It's a lot more counter-able (not really a word I know) than Honchkrow. Oh, and Buck and Bouff are significantly harder to 'take advantage of,' unlike those slow Rock and Steel-types.
Gallade also deserves mention, I guess, but people need to realize this: if everyone runs the same Bulk Up set, don't expect it to be super effective. Swords Dance set is also pretty darn good and it plummets the weak responses that come in to wall Bulk Up Gallade. I feel that in general, you need the strength to overpower DP UU in order to overpower BW RU. Gallade was banned in DP UU so he does have the prerequisite--doesn't mean he's broken though. Argh, my words are being really unorganized, but the point is that while Gallade isn't broken, it certainly has the potential to be really good.
On the topic of weather, I haven't seen too many Sun and Rain teams, but they're annoyingly effective. I'm going to shy away from "oh it doesn't take skill" because admittedly I'm not super skilled either, but I'm sure that a lot of people believe Sun and Rain need some type of nerfing--I think I did make an argument of Uxie as a suspect because of her ability to make weather offense broken / borderline broken, but even I think that's some shady logic there. As for Hail, I don't think it's broken at all. It's all in the teambuilding. With Cryogonal and careful play, you're really not getting beat unless you're playing against a really really good hail team. Hail really needs a team built around, and it's nowhere near an auto-win.
TL;DR: Honch and Sun/Rain is the closest to needing a suspect vote, Lilligant is somewhere in the middle, Hail and Gallade is theoretically good but doesn't work as well in practice.
I don't think anything is broken despite being one of the most ban happy players on smogon. If honchkrow gets banned people will just start complaining about braviary and swellow. It has multiple hard counters (gligar, steelix, rhydon) and a number of good checks (aggron, klinklang, bulky waters). Yeah, most of the good switch ins are rocks and steels; guess what, if you build a team without a flying resist you're going to have issues with honchkrow. That's like saying that rotom is broken because you don't have an electric resist. There may not be many steels, but there are still a decent amount of good switches into krow.
Lilligant has hard counters and is effectively checked by the two best mons in the tier.
Lilligant has hard counters and is effectively checked by the two best mons in the tier.
Certainly agreeing with Nails here. Despite the fact that I hate to see honch and lilligant when my counters are weakened or dead, they have viable counters who can add more to a team than the sole Honchkrow/Lilligant/etc stop role. Gallade = can also be annoying, but I usually lose to it only when I miss play.
Now...Sun and Rain (and sometimes Hail). Ouch. they mess me up bad despite my best efforts. I'm mostly against banning, but this would be my only suspect suggestion. It pains me to say this, but as suspect "rain dance/sunny day moves" or something like "rain dance + swift swim/sunny day + chlorophyll." There just isn't much down here that can take repeated fast and boosted water + coverage or fast and boosted fire + coverage, and its practically 100% they will get their weather up at least once. (If little hippo gets down here, I would no longer consider them to be borderline broken)
Now...Sun and Rain (and sometimes Hail). Ouch. they mess me up bad despite my best efforts. I'm mostly against banning, but this would be my only suspect suggestion. It pains me to say this, but as suspect "rain dance/sunny day moves" or something like "rain dance + swift swim/sunny day + chlorophyll." There just isn't much down here that can take repeated fast and boosted water + coverage or fast and boosted fire + coverage, and its practically 100% they will get their weather up at least once. (If little hippo gets down here, I would no longer consider them to be borderline broken)
Stratos
Banned deucer.
I'm not so annoyed by gallade (actually I am but that's probably my fault), but Krow and Lilligant need to go.
There's one major difference between Krow and GenericOtherFastBird21. IMHO, he was more broken that Yanmega from the start due to it. That difference is Sucker Punch.
You cannot outspeed Krow. It is that simple. If anything other than Steelix nets a kill at less than 50% HP, you just lost. Once Krow gets his first kill, unless you have a steelix he is impossible to stop. Slow Pokemon are OHKOed by BB. Fast Pokemon are OHKOed by Sucker Punch. Game. Over.
Lilligant, on the other hand, is just a bitch. Unless you run Sap Sipper Sawsbuck/Bouffalant/Miltank, you will get a sleeping Pokemon guaranteed. Then, when you switch, Lilli QDs, and with substantial bulk and Giga Drain, it's game. Even if you CAN kill it, you still have a sleeping pokemon.
There's one major difference between Krow and GenericOtherFastBird21. IMHO, he was more broken that Yanmega from the start due to it. That difference is Sucker Punch.
You cannot outspeed Krow. It is that simple. If anything other than Steelix nets a kill at less than 50% HP, you just lost. Once Krow gets his first kill, unless you have a steelix he is impossible to stop. Slow Pokemon are OHKOed by BB. Fast Pokemon are OHKOed by Sucker Punch. Game. Over.
Lilligant, on the other hand, is just a bitch. Unless you run Sap Sipper Sawsbuck/Bouffalant/Miltank, you will get a sleeping Pokemon guaranteed. Then, when you switch, Lilli QDs, and with substantial bulk and Giga Drain, it's game. Even if you CAN kill it, you still have a sleeping pokemon.
I think currently HonchKrow is the only only who deserves a Ban Boot. You need to centralize teams just to counter one and its just annoying. He would fit much better in UU.
-Completely agree with Nails on Honchkrow
-Lilligant has one actually seen hard counter. In the last month, I've seen maybe two or three Bouffalants (but a ton of Sawsbucks) and no Sap Sipper Miltanks (in fact, I didn't even know that was released O.O). Is that just me or is no one using them? I'm still leaning towards a ban on Lilligant, but I'm not 100% sure yet.
-Rain and Sun are troublesome, but I don't think its broken. Rain > Sun though.
-Sure, Hail is troublesome, but the fact that Snover is NU says a little bit about how broken it is. The Hail teams I do see aren't too hard anyways.
-Lilligant has one actually seen hard counter. In the last month, I've seen maybe two or three Bouffalants (but a ton of Sawsbucks) and no Sap Sipper Miltanks (in fact, I didn't even know that was released O.O). Is that just me or is no one using them? I'm still leaning towards a ban on Lilligant, but I'm not 100% sure yet.
-Rain and Sun are troublesome, but I don't think its broken. Rain > Sun though.
-Sure, Hail is troublesome, but the fact that Snover is NU says a little bit about how broken it is. The Hail teams I do see aren't too hard anyways.
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