NP RU Stage 3: Things We Lost In The Fire (Heracross Banned)

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atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
RU Co-Leader
#1
First Public Test (we probably won't be switching all the way off the koko system quite yet but maybe soon, idk)



While the council has voted on Heracross before, it has come to our attention that many in the community believe Heracross is deserving of a suspect test. As always, if you'd like to see some in depth reasoning as to why this Pokemon is being suspected, there are some paragraphs below written about why Heracross in particular was chosen. The suspect test will last 10 days and the deadline will be at 11:59 PM EST on the 26th of July, assuming the ladder is up by the end of the night.
The reqs will be 2800 coil with a B value of 9.0, but you will need to finish reqs within 61 games. Some sample values are below. I will know if you reset your win loss, given its determined by GXE, do not attempt to game the system you will be infracted if I catch you, and I will. A GXE of 77.5 is the required minimum.

To find out how many matches it'll take for you specifically, take your GXE, and put it into this formula

9.0/log2(40*GXE/2800)

Heracross's thick horn allows him to penetrate the hardest walls of RU with fiery passion. Heracross's Guts Flame Orb SD set has presented itself as extremely restrictive for defensively oriented teams, forcing them to use Acrobatics Gligar. Unlike Bewear and Pangoro whose SD sets also can be restrictive for defensive teams, Heracross's decent speed tier allows Heracross to punish balanced teams very easily.


Also here is the NP song:

taggin The Immortal for a ladder :D

***PSA: Do not shit post. Posts lacking content are subject to be deleted and/or infracted.
 

SilentVerse

Into the New World
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
#2
Just as someone who has followed SM RU casually for the last few months, I suppose I will drop in my $0.02.

I think Heracross itself is probably not really broken. Both Flame Orb and Choice Scarf are beatable and can be outplayed on most teams that have properly prepared for it, and either set has huge issues against certain team compositions (Flame Orb is kinda dong against offense, Scarf is kinda dong vs stall). There are certainly a fair share of checks to it in the tier - Doublade, Gligar, Comfey, Unaware mons like Quag / Pyuku, rando Z-move phys def Psychics etc that can slot into most teams fairly easily one way or another. Its not an unbeatable Pokemon by any means, and it does create interesting games that make playing skill very valuable. At the very least, there is a definite sense that there is counterplay to it. If your opponent is better at playing with Heracross, they can break through your myriad of checks and win the game, but if you are the better player and can play around it, itl'l just die from hazards + burn + other residual like Rocky Helmet or attacks that hit it on switchin.

However, Heracross is mostly annoying due to what it does when it comes to teambuilding, albeit this could just be because I can't teambuild post gen 5 to save my life. This is because while there are certainly ways you can build teams to beat Heracross on slower teams (residual from Gigalith sand + Protect with checks like Gligar, with mons like Comfey that can comfortably revenge kill it), it does feel limiting in the sense that since there aren't really any good hard counters to the mon (People say Gligar is reliable, but when it dies to Knock into SD Facade, even it is oftentimes not enough as your only check to it), you have to make sure your slower build can properly deal with it through other means. This oftentimes means multiple soft checks, oftentimes including one answer that can deal with Heracross if it gets an SD (Quag, Pyuk, faster revenge killer), along with at least one mon that can comfortably switch into Heracross a couple of times (Gligar, phys def Ghosts / Psychics or w/e) since Heracross can often muscle through a lot of defensive checks through a combination of Knock Off + SD Facade, and faster checks often risk getting oneshot when switching in. Unfortunately, since the number of answers that Heracross has are so limited, and you require so many of them to have a reliable answer to Flame Orb Heracross on slower builds, I feel like a lot of slower builds are super homogenous, since it feels difficult to build a good slow team without the use of Gligar + a mon that can outspeed and hit Heracross SE + probably another emergency check to Heracross. You could certainly argue that I would be using those mons on slower builds a lot of the time even if Heracross wasn't in the tier, especially since Gligar is one of the few effective hazard removers in the tier, but Heracross limits teambuilders to these restricted compositions moreso than any other mon in the tier. Is this broken? Maybe not. It certainly does make the tier feel much more stale however, which is perhaps not a good thing.

More importantly, I think saying that Heracross limits defensively oriented teams is kinda misleading in some respects, since Stall teams are the ones that tend to be able to handle Heracross quite well, since they can invest multiple slots and forms of residual damage in their defensive cores to deal with it. Furthermore, Stall teams tend to be fairly homogenous anyway, since they are optimized builds that don't have a ton of room for flexibility, especially with Defog making it so that Stall teams are mostly a matter of whether or not it can out stat check the enemy team. Heracross mostly limits the ability for slower balance teams to branch out and diversify, since trying to run glue mons like Porygon2 means that you are immediately pressured into bringing multiple Heracross answers, where one of those is probably a Gligar and a bunch of offensive checks, or Gligar and a few more defensive checks, leading to a stallish build. It feels like there is rarely a good in-between when it comes to building against the mon, and I found that kinda annoying, although not necessarily broken.

Anyway, I'm super washed up so take my rant with a grain of salt, but I'm like actually so done with shoving Gligar on all my teams. f that mon.
 
#3
The only set which really poses a problem imo is the flame orb guts one, scarf is easily checked by gligar, doublade, florges and the likes, players can even switch around creatively into resists predicting close combat or megahorn or whatever, Sure, moxie can get a sweep going around but if you play smart and keep checks healthy, it shouldn't pose much of a problem.

Sd guts is arguably the best wallbreaker, a problem to all defensive and offence based teams and has minimal defensive counter play, but is outsped by a lot of common offensive mons, take salazzle, swellow, and literally every scarfer, and heracross doesn't really have great defenses, and is pressured by residual rocks and the racking burn damage , and is in that way dealt with.

The Correct way to play would be to quickly ascertain what type of heracross it is, which is obviously visible in one turn as seen from the flame orb burn, and then proceed accordingly.

Just because a mon is strong doesn't mean it's broken and should be banned.

And if people are talking about lack of defensive counterplay, you would much sooner ban freaking linoone while you're at it.

Don't ban. Let the bug stay.
 
#5
Heracross is a solid scarfer and late-game sweeper with flame orb, but it's checked by any fast scarfer with a super effective attack, or certain physical walls such as gligar. You don't need to go a long way to add a heracross check to any team, it's not like you *have* to chuck in something suboptimal like a scarf aero for it.

It's also not really affecting team diversity. It's not the only good setup fighting type, due to Kommo-o, and it competes with Pangoro as a late-game cleaner (although it's probably better in 90% of teams.) It's also not the only scarf user worth running, with Hoopa, Salazzle, Bruxish, etc.
The only real reason one might want to ban it is that it dominates on the physical scarf side, but as the suspect reasoning seems to take exception to his wallbreaking power at 85 speed, I'll be voting do not ban if I end up getting reqs.
 

Aurora

bonne nuit
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#6
Heracross is a solid scarfer and late-game sweeper with flame orb, but it's checked by any fast scarfer with a super effective attack, or certain physical walls such as gligar. You don't need to go a long way to add a heracross check to any team, it's not like you *have* to chuck in something suboptimal like a scarf aero for it.

It's also not really affecting team diversity. It's not the only good setup fighting type, due to Kommo-o, and it competes with Pangoro as a late-game cleaner (although it's probably better in 90% of teams.) It's also not the only scarf user worth running, with Hoopa, Salazzle, Bruxish, etc.
The only real reason one might want to ban it is that it dominates on the physical scarf side, but as the suspect reasoning seems to take exception to his wallbreaking power at 85 speed, I'll be voting do not ban if I end up getting reqs.
The only set which really poses a problem imo is the flame orb guts one, scarf is easily checked by gligar, doublade, florges and the likes, players can even switch around creatively into resists predicting close combat or megahorn or whatever, Sure, moxie can get a sweep going around but if you play smart and keep checks healthy, it shouldn't pose much of a problem.

Sd guts is arguably the best wallbreaker, a problem to all defensive and offence based teams and has minimal defensive counter play, but is outsped by a lot of common offensive mons, take salazzle, swellow, and literally every scarfer, and heracross doesn't really have great defenses, and is pressured by residual rocks and the racking burn damage , and is in that way dealt with.

The Correct way to play would be to quickly ascertain what type of heracross it is, which is obviously visible in one turn as seen from the flame orb burn, and then proceed accordingly.

Just because a mon is strong doesn't mean it's broken and should be banned.

And if people are talking about lack of defensive counterplay, you would much sooner ban freaking linoone while you're at it.

Don't ban. Let the bug stay.
These posts miss the point of why Heracross is being suspected. Nobody has said that SD + Guts Heracross has an overly great matchup against more offensive teams. While Heracross is very hard to switch into for these sorts of teams, they can easily force it out once it gets a kill with Pokemon such as Salazzle, Swellow, and the like. It's the set's matchup against fatter teams that is the issue. When the most splashable checks to Heracross on these sorts of teams, such as Doublade and Gligar, cannot stomach a Knock Off (with the latter then having issues taking Guts-boosted Facades that may or may not have a Swords Dance behind them) then there is a problem. Heracross "not being the only good setup Fighting-type" is not relevant to whether or not it is broken, as that does not focus on the effect Heracross itself is having on the metagame. At the risk of being excessively tangential, Suicine was not the only good bulky Water-type in RU Alpha, but it had such a centralising effect on the metagame that it was banned without hesitation at the genesis of RU Beta. For the record, Choice Scarf is still a good set, but it's much weaker and easier to play around for defensive teams. Plus, offensive teams can still deal with it fairly adequately as they are, more often than not, going to have something that either outspeeds this variant of Heracross (say, Choice Scarf Moltres) or can easily shut it down (say, Comfey).

SilentVerse really nails on the head the problems Heracross creates in the teambuilding phase. In this metagame where the myriad of powerful offensive threats necessitates most teams to have a strong defensive backbone, Pokemon such as Umbreon and Registeel become appealing. However, by placing either of these Pokemon - premier utility Pokemon, at that - on my team, I encounter a problem: I now have a Pokemon that is hopefully vulnerable to being set up on by Heracross. Let's continue teambuilding with Umbreon. Umbreon's unfortunate weakness to Fighting-type moves combined with an inability to do anything substantial to Fighting-types means that Doublade seems a great fit. Now, though, I encounter another problem: Heracross still easily pressures this core. Doublade's total lack of recovery and role as a blanket check to most physical attackers in RU means it can be overloaded easily, and having to take Knock Offs makes this even worse. Umbreon can barely afford to pass a Wish to Doublade because this gives the Heracross you are more than likely to have in the back a free switch-in, and giving this thing a free turn is not an optimal situation. Then I might chuck AcroGligar onto my team; Defog support is always nice for fat teams anyway, and Acrobatics Gligar is a seemingly reliable answer. Yet this, too, can't take a Knock Off to save its life. What am I supposed to do in this situation when my team's defensive backbone can't adequately deal with this one Pokemon? I could run an Unaware Pokemon, like Pyukumuku, but Pyukumuku's passivity leaves it easily pressured by other teammates, which might force other Pokemon that are Heracross-weak to switch in to deal with them... but then, a well-timed Heracross double switch into play can be problematic for me. Pyukumuku and Quagsire barely qualify as checks if they try eating a Close Combat, which is pretty comedic. Of course, Heracross can be dealt with through passive damage; Flame Orb damage adds up despite the burn nerf (or buff?) and switching into Stealth Rock is never desirable. However, flagging this as an infallible method of playing Heracross is viewing things in a vacuum and simply does not take things into account such as opportunities for teammates to Defog and the like.

Heracross has other great qualities that combine with this difficulty to adequately cover while teambuilding to create a Pokemon that is very difficult to deal with overall. A good Speed tier, which is specified in the OP as a means for Heracross to differentiate itself from other powerful wallbreakers, serviceable bulk, and actually half-decent defensive typing even make removing it from play a challenge for balances that rely on Stealth Rock setters such as Rhyperior and Gigalith or other passive, defensive Pokemon, such as bulky Water-types that can't deal with it because it doesn't care about Scald. Even a select few offensive Pokemon that lack a super effective move to hit it with, such as Zoroark, will lose handily. Comparing it to Pangoro, it is more difficult to pressure with passive damage and status due to Flame Orb essentially giving it an immunity to poison / sleep etc., it is more difficult to revenge kill due to its reasonable Speed stat, and it has much more immediate power that becomes even more absurd after a Swords Dance, which really isn't that difficult to set up.

The way Heracross suffocates more defensive teams and makes covering it both in teambuilding and during play extremely difficult is what makes it broken in my eyes. It should be banned.
 
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#7
I'm not gonna bother writing a long post, this is essentially gonna be a tldr of my thought process without any explanations as to why what I say/think is true.

Heracross is definitely not broken. However, Heracross restricts teambuilding very heavily. Heracross also won't be missed, since other pokemon can fill in a similar role as the sd guts set without being as stupid to handle as heracross. To put this another way, fat teams won't suddenly dominate the meta if hera gets banned. Scarf heracross is also not a key mon in the tier - the meta will be just as fine without it. I think banning Heracross will go a long way to helping the tier develop and diversify.
 
#8
A lot of what FlamingVictini said is true. Heracross is clearly not broken, but he centralizes a lot the teambuilding because Of his Flame Orb + SD set who doesn't have any real switch-in when placed , he became easy to revenge kill because his speed, as good as it is, isn't excellent. Scarf Heracross is just a cleaner who is easy to deal with right now. If I have the time to Ladd, i dont know what i would vote for yet but i wouldn't be bothered by a ban to be honest.

It's just a little summed up of what I think \o/.
 
#9
Heracross is definitely not broken. However, Heracross restricts teambuilding very heavily. Heracross also won't be missed, since other pokemon can fill in a similar role as the sd guts set without being as stupid to handle as heracross. To put this another way, fat teams won't suddenly dominate the meta if hera gets banned. Scarf heracross is also not a key mon in the tier - the meta will be just as fine without it.
This isn't a post that's directly about RU, so mods can delete this if they wish, but this highlights something about smogon's(or at least people of smogon's) ban philosophy that I do not understand. We should be banning pokemon a because they are broken, simple as that, we shouldn't worry about its repercussions on the metagame that pokemon a's ban will cause until said pokemon a is banned. Like seriously when the april fools prank of whatever year I think it was 2015 happened and Giratina-Origin was free to run about on the OU ladder people were actually saying that it should be unbanned NOT because of the fact that it was not broken, but because of the fact that it provides a counter to Keldeo and Landorus-Incarnate. If a pokemon destabilizes the metagame and causes other pokemon to become too powerful, then just ban those other pokemon as well. Yes, this could lead to an endless cycle of just banning pokemon, but the leaders+councils of the tiers wouldn't ever let such a cycle occur. Not to mention the fact that this justification for not banning a pokemon is almost entirely just predicting how the metagame will pan out if this pokemon is banned. Remember how people in XY were hesitating to ban Aegislash because they were scared of pokemon like Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham and Mega Gardevoir would terrorize the metagame? And how did that turn out exactly after the Aegislash ban? Sure the pokemon got significantly better, but none of them were not in any way shape or form overpowered. I deeply apologize if the mods don't want this kind of thing in this thread, once again feel free to delete this message if you don't want this kind of discussion in this thread.
TL;DR: Ban pokemon that are broken, don't keeping x pokemon in the tier by saying that they could make y and z pokemon too strong, just ban x, y and z if they are all too strong for the tier to handle.
 
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#10
Yeah, Heracross has to go. The combination of absurd offensive stats, an instant +1 Boost with Guts and Flame Orb, and a decent speed tier, pushes this thing over the edge. When trying to build defensive / slower bulky offensive teams I always always run Gligar/Mantine and keep in mind how strong this behemoth is. It's also so hard to pull off a strategic counterplay, esp if you're running a balance or BO team because it almost always gets that +2. (You can't poison/burn it once Flame Orb activates) the only thing you can actually do is outright kill it, which can prove to be harder than it looks. You're also forced ro run flying coverage on its "counters": Air Slash for Mantine, Acrobatics for Gligar, etc. Once it gets an SD you have to sack 2-3 mons(including your supposed counter).
Against offensive teams it can be easier to handle, but bear in mind that only few offensive mons(maybe Salazzle,Doublade ona predicted CC) actually switch into Facade/Koff/CC. Scarf also dents through many teams because of Moxie but it's npt the only Scarfer that does this(there's Honckrow which has a more spammable Brave Bird), so I wouldn't say this is the broken aspect.
Heracross heavily restricts team building so it has to be banned.
 

eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
#11
Not really metagame related, but for the formula, is it log base 2 (i.e. log_2) or log (2 * (...)). The former gives me a requirement of 600+ games haha.

To make this post more relevant, I've been messing around with Stall to get requirements (so far 9-1 out of low ladder, so that's good I guess). When it came to teambuilding and using the team in practice, Heracross rarely was a problem thanks to Defensive Moltres.

Currently I run the 248 HP / 44 Def / 216+ Spe variant, which allows it to act as a soft check to Heracross and Bewear. Also works really well right now on Balance teams since it's a pretty good stallbreaker.

Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Roost
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
 
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#12
This isn't a post that's directly about RU, so mods can delete this if they wish, but this highlights something about smogon's(or at least people of smogon's) ban philosophy that I do not understand. We should be banning pokemon a because they are broken, simple as that, we shouldn't worry about its repercussions on the metagame that pokemon a's ban will cause until said pokemon a is banned. Like seriously when the april fools prank of whatever year I think it was 2015 happened and Giratina-Origin was free to run about on the OU ladder people were actually saying that it should be unbanned NOT because of the fact that it was not broken, but because of the fact that it provides a counter to Keldeo and Landorus-Incarnate. If a pokemon destabilizes the metagame and causes other pokemon to become too powerful, then just ban those other pokemon as well. Yes, this could lead to an endless cycle of just banning pokemon, but the leaders+councils of the tiers wouldn't ever let such a cycle occur. Not to mention the fact that this justification for not banning a pokemon is almost entirely just predicting how the metagame will pan out if this pokemon is banned. Remember how people in XY were hesitating to ban Aegislash because they were scared of pokemon like Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham and Mega Gardevoir would terrorize the metagame? And how did that turn out exactly after the Aegislash ban? Sure the pokemon got significantly better, but none of them were not in any way shape or form overpowered. I deeply apologize if the mods don't want this kind of thing in this thread, once again feel free to delete this message if you don't want this kind of discussion in this thread.
TL;DR: Ban pokemon that are broken, don't keeping x pokemon in the tier by saying that they could make y and z pokemon too strong, just ban x, y and z if they are all too strong for the tier to handle.

Yeah I completely agree, I think Smogon are a little unclear as to why pokemon get moved up from tiers. They should openly state that pokemon that outright dominate the tier they're in or cause it to become centralised need to suspect tested and then banned to the tier above. Heracross is definitely not broken, and don't just ignore that 4x weakness to flying just because it's a good pokemon. I really find it difficult to see what can work just as well as heracross in RU as a late game cleaner, moxie + coverage + decent attack and speed is what makes heracross an ideal late game cleaner. I don't see why saying that RU will perform just fine with Heracross gone justifies that it should get banned, only the scarf set threatens it's checks tbh and the guts set is too slow to outspeed faster threats like Swellow. Even then, Heracross is flawed and easily exploitable if you know what you're doing. There are plenty of pokemon likem Florges that check it well and prevent it from doing it's job well. If Heracross gets banned then it'll be quite sad, since he's got no hope of doing well in UU with mega aerodactyl running rampant. It'll probably end up in BL2 like Hawlucha, Suicine and etc... [most of which have no potential in UU]

Yeah, Heracross has to go. The combination of absurd offensive stats, an instant +1 Boost with Guts and Flame Orb, and a decent speed tier, pushes this thing over the edge. When trying to build defensive / slower bulky offensive teams I always always run Gligar/Mantine and keep in mind how strong this behemoth is. It's also so hard to pull off a strategic counterplay, esp if you're running a balance or BO team because it almost always gets that +2. (You can't poison/burn it once Flame Orb activates) the only thing you can actually do is outright kill it, which can prove to be harder than it looks. You're also forced ro run flying coverage on its "counters": Air Slash for Mantine, Acrobatics for Gligar, etc. Once it gets an SD you have to sack 2-3 mons(including your supposed counter).
Against offensive teams it can be easier to handle, but bear in mind that only few offensive mons(maybe Salazzle,Doublade ona predicted CC) actually switch into Facade/Koff/CC. Scarf also dents through many teams because of Moxie but it's npt the only Scarfer that does this(there's Honckrow which has a more spammable Brave Bird), so I wouldn't say this is the broken aspect.
Heracross heavily restricts team building so it has to be banned.
Name one pokemon in RU that does a better job of cleaning late game than Heracross?
 
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#13
Yeah I completely agree, I think Smogon are a little unclear as to why pokemon get moved up from tiers. They should openly state that pokemon that outright dominate the tier they're in or cause it to become centralised need to suspect tested and then banned to the tier above. Heracross is definitely not broken, and don't just ignore that 4x weakness to flying just because it's a good pokemon. I really find it difficult to see what can work just as well as heracross in RU as a late game cleaner, moxie + coverage + decent attack and speed is what makes heracross an ideal late game cleaner. I don't see why saying that RU will perform just fine with Heracross gone justifies that it should get banned, only the scarf set threatens it's checks tbh and the guts set is too slow to outspeed faster threats like Swellow. Even then, Heracross is flawed and easily exploitable if you know what you're doing. There are plenty of pokemon likem Florges that check it well and prevent it from doing it's job well. If Heracross gets banned then it'll be quite sad, since he's got no hope of doing well in UU with mega aerodactyl running rampant. It'll probably end up in BL2 like Hawlucha, Suicine and etc... [most of which have no potential in UU]
1) the state of the above tiers has absolutely no influence on the lower one. if heracross is proven broken in RU and garbage in UU, it still gets banned, no exceptions.

2) florges is 2HKOed by unboosted Facade and doesn't OHKO with moonblast even after burn damage.
 
#14
I'm not gonna bother writing a long post, this is essentially gonna be a tldr of my thought process without any explanations as to why what I say/think is true.

Heracross is definitely not broken. However, Heracross restricts teambuilding very heavily. Heracross also won't be missed, since other pokemon can fill in a similar role as the sd guts set without being as stupid to handle as heracross. To put this another way, fat teams won't suddenly dominate the meta if hera gets banned. Scarf heracross is also not a key mon in the tier - the meta will be just as fine without it. I think banning Heracross will go a long way to helping the tier develop and diversify.
Heracross isn't a key mon in this tier? Dude, I know you're the RU tour champ but you can't just ignore the facts. Heracross serves as one of the best revenge killers in RU metagame, nobody does it's job better than it Honchkrow comes at a close second but it's still outclassed by Heracross (as it's easily worn down by recoil). It can run a guts set which outright threatens bulky teams. Regardless, it's still got it's fair share of issues and that's why it shouldn't be banned.

1) the state of the above tiers has absolutely no influence on the lower one. if heracross is proven broken in RU and garbage in UU, it still gets banned, no exceptions.

2) florges is 2HKOed by unboosted Facade and doesn't OHKO with moonblast even after burn damage.
I'm referring to the scarf set not the guts one.
 
#15
Choice scarf Heracross isn't a problem at all, there's too many good counters to it in ru such as Doublade, Gligar, and the defensive fairies, not to mention it getting outsped by jolly Sharpedo if your team is scrapped for answers against it. The real problem with Hera is it's Guts-flame orb. Being able to 2hko the entire tier after Gligar's eviolite has been knocked is a huge feat, put one that can also be accomplished by Pangoro or the newly introduced Bewear. The real thing that makes Hera ban worthy is the fact that it sits at such a good speed tier for a wallbreaker. A combination of the fact that it's best for its niche and that even if it leaves, we'll still have other fighting type wallbreakers that have more counterplay, proves to me why it's banworthy. Anyone who's ever played RU knows they need at least a soft check to Guts-Hera, and that makes pokes such as Gligar, Doublade(Not a counter!) and Moltres on almost every team proves to how effective this poke is at it's role. Another differentiating point it has from the others is the fact that it can switch moves, meaning even if the user miss predicts, it can still just fire off the appropriate coverage move, if the pokemon is sufficiently chipped, which isn't difficult for the so-called "counters".

Tl;dr, Hera should be banned since it restricts teambuilding, while still being the most effective wallbreaker. The scarf set is so mediocre compared to other, better scarfers such as Shaymin, and better late game sweepers such as Sharpedo and Ferligatr, and shouldn't not be banned due to how the scarf set doesn't impact the meta in any meaningful way.
 
#16
This isn't a post that's directly about RU, so mods can delete this if they wish, but this highlights something about smogon's(or at least people of smogon's) ban philosophy that I do not understand. We should be banning pokemon a because they are broken, simple as that, we shouldn't worry about its repercussions on the metagame that pokemon a's ban will cause until said pokemon a is banned. Like seriously when the april fools prank of whatever year I think it was 2015 happened and Giratina-Origin was free to run about on the OU ladder people were actually saying that it should be unbanned NOT because of the fact that it was not broken, but because of the fact that it provides a counter to Keldeo and Landorus-Incarnate. If a pokemon destabilizes the metagame and causes other pokemon to become too powerful, then just ban those other pokemon as well. Yes, this could lead to an endless cycle of just banning pokemon, but the leaders+councils of the tiers wouldn't ever let such a cycle occur. Not to mention the fact that this justification for not banning a pokemon is almost entirely just predicting how the metagame will pan out if this pokemon is banned. Remember how people in XY were hesitating to ban Aegislash because they were scared of pokemon like Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham and Mega Gardevoir would terrorize the metagame? And how did that turn out exactly after the Aegislash ban? Sure the pokemon got significantly better, but none of them were not in any way shape or form overpowered. I deeply apologize if the mods don't want this kind of thing in this thread, once again feel free to delete this message if you don't want this kind of discussion in this thread.
TL;DR: Ban pokemon that are broken, don't keeping x pokemon in the tier by saying that they could make y and z pokemon too strong, just ban x, y and z if they are all too strong for the tier to handle.
You are right that we do not ban pokemon "because they help handle other potential broken pokemon." However, that is not the case here. I'm not suggesting to ban heracross because it keeps other broken mons in check. I feel it should be banned because it is an unhealthy presence in the metagame (borderline broken but not quite imo). For a clearer idea of what I am talking about, you should read up on OU's Tiering Policy Framework. If that thread isn't visible to you (I'm not sure if everyone can see it) then I'll pastebin it so you can read it. It's definitely worth the read if you want to understand Smogon's tiering policies more thoroughly.

P.S. I did also say that bulky teams (note: not specific pokemon) won't suddenly become rampant when heracross is gone - I only mentioned this because for whatever reason, most people don't seem to like "fat" tiers too much, but that is a very poor reason to vote dnb on heracross (assuming you think it is a necessary pressence to keep bulky teams in check).
 
#17
You are right that we do not ban pokemon "because they help handle other potential broken pokemon." However, that is not the case here. I'm not suggesting to ban heracross because it keeps other broken mons in check. I feel it should be banned because it is an unhealthy presence in the metagame (borderline broken but not quite imo). For a clearer idea of what I am talking about, you should read up on OU's Tiering Policy Framework. If that thread isn't visible to you (I'm not sure if everyone can see it) then I'll pastebin it so you can read it. It's definitely worth the read if you want to understand Smogon's tiering policies more thoroughly.

P.S. I did also say that bulky teams (note: not specific pokemon) won't suddenly become rampant when heracross is gone - I only mentioned this because for whatever reason, most people don't seem to like "fat" tiers too much, but that is a very poor reason to vote dnb on heracross (assuming you think it is a necessary pressence to keep bulky teams in check).
The glaring issue that I see here is you assume guts (flame orb) heracross to be a nigh invincible threat in the RU metagame when it's only really threatening once it's checks have been knocked out. Yes, Heracross is S rank but that doesn't mean it's not fallible. To put this into context, let's consider OU viability for an example. In OU, both magearna and lando t exist as S rank mons due to their versatility and ability to shine in more than one set, this is similar to Heracross in the RU meta. But have magearna or lando t been banned from OU to ubers? Absolutely not, as just because a mon is a top tier threat in their meta doesn't mean it has to be banned to balance the meta. And even if you say that Heracross centralises the RU metagame, well so do Magearna and Lando t. Literally every teambuilder double checks to make sure they have a move to deal with lando t, e.g. an ice move like HP ice. Similarly with Magearna, for example a Magnezone (with magnet pull) needs to ensure it has HP fire in it's arsenal to deal with Magearna (and of course ferrothorn). My point is that you can't have a certain approach acceptable for one tier and not for another. It's clear hypocrisy if that's acceptable.

Choice scarf Heracross isn't a problem at all, there's too many good counters to it in ru such as Doublade, Gligar, and the defensive fairies, not to mention it getting outsped by jolly Sharpedo if your team is scrapped for answers against it. The real problem with Hera is it's Guts-flame orb. Being able to 2hko the entire tier after Gligar's eviolite has been knocked is a huge feat, put one that can also be accomplished by Pangoro or the newly introduced Bewear. The real thing that makes Hera ban worthy is the fact that it sits at such a good speed tier for a wallbreaker. A combination of the fact that it's best for its niche and that even if it leaves, we'll still have other fighting type wallbreakers that have more counterplay, proves to me why it's banworthy. Anyone who's ever played RU knows they need at least a soft check to Guts-Hera, and that makes pokes such as Gligar, Doublade(Not a counter!) and Moltres on almost every team proves to how effective this poke is at it's role. Another differentiating point it has from the others is the fact that it can switch moves, meaning even if the user miss predicts, it can still just fire off the appropriate coverage move, if the pokemon is sufficiently chipped, which isn't difficult for the so-called "counters".

Tl;dr, Hera should be banned since it restricts teambuilding, while still being the most effective wallbreaker. The scarf set is so mediocre compared to other, better scarfers such as Shaymin, and better late game sweepers such as Sharpedo and Ferligatr, and shouldn't not be banned due to how the scarf set doesn't impact the meta in any meaningful way.
Heracross reaches a measly speed stat of 295 in a metagame where it's threats are either way faster than it or can equip a choice scarf to revenge kill it. It has absolute bragging rights against slower teams with it's guts + swords dance + flame orb combo, but not all teams run in RU are defensive. May I also remind you that it's revenge killing scarf set has a higher rank on the RU viability set, this is further evidenced in the smogon analysis for Smogon which generally displays a pokemon's best set before the others. In order to ensure that Heracross beats even more offensive teams, sticky webs support is mandatory. Unfortunately, once again the only viable webs user in the meta is Galvantula which is bad considering that there are decent and reliable rapid spinners and defoggers within RU. A broken mon would require little to no support in order to be able to beat everything within the meta, it's clear guts hera does require support in order to carry out it's role well. And you can't even bring up the "oh but it centralises the meta and makes team making unfair", all of it's checks are not simple deadweight against other threats. For example, choice specs Swellow checks guts hera and it also threatens other mons in the meta too including ghost types due to scrappy. Please rethink this before simply deciding that hera needs to be banned, because you think that it can't be stopped.
 
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DTC

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#18
Keep the discussion about Heracross's impact on the RU metagame. There's no Smogon hypocrisy here. Different people lead different tiers.

We suspected Heracross because many members in the community voiced concerns over Heracross's Flame Orb (not Choice Scarf) set being too effective of a wallbreaker.
 

esche

AKA Wang Fire
is a Tiering Contributor
#19
it is not important for ru "how ou does things". yes, there should be some sort of conformity when it comes to tiering policy but why keep bringing up examples from ou when the suspect of choice is heracross in ru? for once i will reply to your comparison but afterwards let us please move on with discussion on ru, not ou.

the issue is not that heracross is centralizing ru by being slapped on every team like lando-t or magearna are in ou. guts sd heracross is the sole reason for why this suspect is being held, and while it's effect on the metagame is undeniably huge it does not offer anything else to the tier (other than its choice scarf set ig). heracross, unlike lando-t or magearna, has little to no defensive merit for the tier, it does not "hold the tier together" like they do. instead, heracross' overcentralizing feature is being a wallbreaker par excellence and thus forcing teams to be built in a specific way, heavily limiting creativity in regard to effectiveness. and this is not even restricted to a singular archetype: bulky offense, balance, semi-stall and stall all have to account for this monster defensively but they simply cannot because it grabs a kill whenever it comes in. hell, the sole reason acrobatics gligar is being slapped on every of the abovementioned playstyles is because of heracross' guts sd set and even that isn't a counter. the issue is not that it's unkillable, it has plenty of checks, but the options of defensive counterplay to it are extremely limited, i would even argue they are non-existent (knock knock).

heracross does not offer anything for ru that it not already has in other mons and banning it relieves pressure from every single playstyle in the tier. its immediate power combined with above average speed for a wallbreaker that can boost its attacking power and access to knock off as well as the extremely spammable facade make heracross just a little too much for ru. it won't be missed.

e: sry wrote this before the post above showed up for me
 
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#20
Heracross isnt broken itself, but the guts set is just too much for the meta. Its a threat that centralizes the team building in a negative way and imo have 0 switch ins rn, even gligar isnt the best thing to deal with that. Gligar gets knocked, you switch out and gligar roosts (this means that he cant even defog in your switch out) and done, heracross will get a free kill next time:

252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 155-183 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 155-183 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 170-201 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Offense has nice counters to Heracross but doesnt means that everyone will play offense every time (offense isnt even the best playstyle to go around rn anyway).
The point of having a suspect is how much something harms the metagame, not how much it is broken. Heracross is getting harmful and something needs to be done about it aka kick this shit out of the city. Ban Heracross.
 
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#21
it is not important for ru "how ou does things". yes, there should be some sort of conformity when it comes to tiering policy but why keep bringing up examples from ou when the suspect of choice is heracross in ru? for once i will reply to your comparison but afterwards let us please move on with discussion on ru, not ou.

the issue is not that heracross is centralizing ru by being slapped on every team like lando-t or magearna are in ou. guts sd heracross is the sole reason for why this suspect is being held, and while it's effect on the metagame is undeniably huge it does not offer anything else to the tier (other than its choice scarf set ig). heracross, unlike lando-t or magearna, has little to no defensive merit for the tier, it does not "hold the tier together" like they do. instead, heracross' overcentralizing feature is being a wallbreaker par excellence and thus forcing teams to be built in a specific way, heavily limiting creativity in regard to effectiveness. and this is not even restricted to a singular archetype: bulky offense, balance, semi-stall and stall all have to account for this monster defensively but they simply cannot because it grabs a kill whenever it comes in. hell, the sole reason acrobatics gligar is being slapped on every of the abovementioned playstyles is because of heracross' guts sd set and even that isn't a counter. the issue is not that it's unkillable, it has plenty of checks, but the options of defensive counterplay to it are extremely limited, i would even argue they are non-existent (knock knock).

banning heracross relieves pressure from every playstyle in the tier and does not offer anything for ru that it not already has in other mons. its immediate power combined with above average speed for a wallbreaker that can boost its attacking power and access to knock off as well as the extremely spammable facade make heracross just a little to much for ru. it won't be missed.

e: sry wrote this before the post above showed up for me
Okay, you have some valid points but which pokemon could take heracross' place as a sweet revenge killer and guts wallbreaker in RU? Because by banning hera due to the guts set, you're also losing a great revenge killer and late game cleaner.
 
#22
Okay, you have some valid points but which pokemon could take heracross' place as a sweet revenge killer and guts wallbreaker in RU? Because by banning hera due to the guts set, you're also losing a great revenge killer and late game cleaner.
There are plenty of other revenge killers. Shaymin, Gardevoir, Durant, even stuff like Swellow and Salazzle, etc. Scarf Hera isn't essential to this metagame.
 
#23
Heracross isnt broken itself, but the guts set is just too much for the meta. Its a threat that centralizes the team building in a negative way and imo have 0 switch ins rn, even gligar isnt the best thing to deal with that. Gligar gets knocked, you switch out and gligar roosts (this means that he cant even defog in your switch out) and done, heracross will get a free kill next time:

252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 155-183 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 155-183 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 170-201 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Offense has nice counters to Heracross but doesnt means that everyone will play offense every time (offense isnt even the best playstyle to go around rn anyway).
The point of having a suspect is how much something harms the metagame, not how much it is broken. Heracross is getting harmful and something needs to be done about it aka kick this shit out of the city. Ban Heracross.
You don't need to post damage calcs about guts hera, I'm not thick and neither do I underestimate it's wallbreaking potential. Gligar loses to heracross every time with the guts set, tbh it's acrobatics only helps it to KO the scarf set. I'm just a little annoyed by how people thinks it's easy to provide reasons to ban hera due to its guts set and how it won't be forgotten as other mons could replace it, when the scarf set is completely being ignored. I don't care about opinions, the fact remains that scarf hera with moxie is one of the best late game cleaners and revenge killers in RU. And guts hera may be uncounterable in RU as nothing can safely switch into it and prevent getting 2HKOed, but it has checks which come in after a free switch in and revenge kill it. Either way we'll see what the council says, but I'm not in favour of this ban since RU will lose a great revenge killer + late game cleaner and an amazing wallbreaker I suppose. :/
 
#24
There are plenty of other revenge killers. Shaymin, Gardevoir, Durant, even stuff like Swellow and Salazzle, etc. Scarf Hera isn't essential to this metagame.
Yep, you're absolutely right. But do any of them have anything better than moxie + great coverage + high sp atk/atk stat? I'm not being narrow-minded, I honestly want to what I can use clean up teams as well as scarfed moxie heracross.
 

Ajna

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#25
Yep, you're absolutely right. But do any of them have anything better than moxie + great coverage + high sp atk/atk stat? I'm not being narrow-minded, I honestly want to what I can use clean up teams as well as scarfed moxie heracross.
having a replacement to heracross should not influence your decision on if it should be banned or not. heracross does not check many mons, so it leaving does not make any other mons more "broken." when we get to the voting stage you should be thinking about if hera is too much of a strain on teambuilding, and if it is too strong for the metagame. you should not be thinking about if there is a mon to simply replace it.
 
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