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Metagame NP RU Stage 3: Things We Lost In The Fire (Heracross Banned)

Discussion in 'RarelyUsed' started by atomicllamas, Jul 16, 2017.

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  1. Scopeowner

    Scopeowner

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    You can't go around criticising my decision when it hasn't even been made! And you don't know what's going around in my mind lol. If I find a suitable mon to replace it's job as a scarf revenge killer (something which everyone forgets about) then I'll asses whether it can still allow teams to have a great revenge killer just like heracross. Until then be patient and respect the thoughts of other people rather than just making them accept what you want.
  2. Rakan

    Rakan Let's dance!
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    Nobody is forcing you to abide by a certain mindset. I think you're misunderstanding what the majority of what people are trying to say here and missing the key point. Heracross is extremely restricting to teambuilding to the point where you have to prepare for it on any team that you make, otherwise you'll likely have issues. This is one of the main reasons any Pokémon is banned, because it doesn't allow room for otherwise more creative teambuilding since you'll always need something like Gligar to deal with Heracross. While I originally voted to not ban Heracross for many of the same reasons you and some others have said, I'm heavily leaning towards banning it now due to the unhealthy presence it has in the current metagame.
  3. Ajna

    Ajna love you like the westside
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    i never claimed to know what was going on in your mind, nor was i impatient or disrespectful. if you get reqs you can vote however you would please. i am pro ban for heracross, but i never tried to convince you that heracross is ban worthy. i simply said that you need to asses if heracross is too difficult to prepare for when team building, or if it is too strong for the tier.
  4. Scopeowner

    Scopeowner

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    My response was to user Ajna who had replied to my comment, there's no need for you to get involved. Remember, we're here discussing Heracross not about what I've said and what's been said to me. Let's close this topic and move on.

    I am currently testing other revenge killers in RU for my team, trying to find something that completes my team the way did that Heracross did. Heracross is going to get banned that's for sure, hence why I've moved on from defending it's place in RU.

    Edit: Is there a usage stats page for RU?
  5. OrangeGuru

    OrangeGuru

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    http://www.smogon.com/stats/2017-06/ (this has the stats for every tier during June, so scroll down until you see gen7ru.) Also, I'm pretty sure nobody is trying to be rude to you. They're trying to make it clear that just because an easy replacement for Heracross may not exist, that is not a reason to vote ban or dnb. The meta will almost certainly adapt with or without Hera. Who knows, someday you may not need a revenge killer like you think you need to replace (the meta could get super bulky). For my 2 cents, I have long thought Hera to be an extremely potent force and one that is prob broken for RU, plus it does restrict teambuilding
    Scopeowner likes this.
  6. Blooberyyyyy

    Blooberyyyyy

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    if we fail to reach the requirement in 61 games, are we allowed to make a second account and try again? just asking
  7. Ajna

    Ajna love you like the westside
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a defending Smogon Snake Draft Champion

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    yea, of course.
    MrAldo likes this.
  8. Umbra Soul

    Umbra Soul

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    If I can say one thing on this not just for you, but for anyone lurking the forums maybe trying to get into posting on the suspecting process and debating, is that never just default to this logic that just because people in the thread is considering pro-ban (or anti-ban) that it will end up out of this way. There is a reason these threads are made to discuss the opinions on Pokemon being suspected with-in reason of mutual agreement of tiering method policies which I'm sure some member of council or some users more familiar with the site on resource links can provide for those who might be new to this. Never just give up even if the thread is majority because others who might look in on this who make reqs and can vote might agree with the opinion you make in the larger scope, just make sure to discuss based on the reasoning of set tiering policies and lingo on suspects and their impacts on their metagames.


    Moving on if I can throw in my two cents, I'll try to make it pretty short on each point:

    Teambuilding - SilentVerse covered more than well enough in that Hera is pretty impactful on teambuilding. A majority of the commonly used Pokemon in the tier have a form of weakness to Heracross' coverage moves, and it has a strong enough attack stat that it can even KO neutral targets because it has the ease of naturally outspeeding many pokemon that are slower or more geared towards balanced builds. The fact Facade if a neutral coverage that is capable of 2HKO'ing bulky teams or just sweeping them if it's given a SD is just off the charts. Add in there's also the fact that as a Bug / Fighting type, the Bug type gives it a resistance to Fighting, Ground, and Grass moves while only adding a Fire weakness and an extra flying weakness that doesn't matter because any flying move would KO it even if it were a singular type. While not bulky or anything really, Heracross has enough bulk from full that it is capable of living non STAB super effective hits or just average strong neutral hits and possibly being able to return fire with a KO if it has been able to get a FO burn that teams do have to consider some extra chip damage. Also I like the fact that Doublade in general is only a pseudo check with tweaked EV'ing to FO Heracross, as it needs to throw in about a good almost 100 EVs into Defense or just go an Impish nature to guarantee not being 2HKO by Knock Off or KO'd from full by +2 Knock Off.

    Fun Doublade Calcs:
    Show Hide
    252 Atk Guts Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 146-172 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Guts Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 134-158 (41.6 - 49%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Guts Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Eviolite Doublade: 136-160 (42.2 - 49.6%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Basically you're having to invest more away from it's offenses or from the usually throw in of Special Bulk so it can mitigate some special damage into making sure you have a way to kill off Hera. Given how Doublade is a Pokemon that is used to try to check multiple Pokemon, it's ability to stay healthy over the course of a game is in question or you have to reserve it fully for Heracross and make some pretty smart plays about it. Also at +2 Hera KO has roughly between 25-37.5% chances of actually KO'ing so you might have to go even higher just to avoid that if you want to murder it with Iron Head after taking a KO + SS damage.


    In Practice/Battle - I don't know how I want to word this but, Hera is capable of applying a ton of pressure in battle just by virtual uncertainty of knowing the set given the state of the metagame. Flame Orb takes a full turn to activate and with that you can take advantage of various common weaknesses to Hera's moveset to take advantage of teammates deaths to feign it's opposite set. Such as say you kill a mon with Salazzle, they send out Heracross, depending on the team build, this is either their scarfer way of dealing with a mon such as Salazzle or a fake out to get it to switch so FO can reveal itself and it either get a SD or a free hit on a switch in would normally be a Scarf Hera check/counter. Either way you know make a choice do you risk sacking the mon which might let it get moxie boosts going or do you make the switch and hope it's not a fake out that will end up possibly causing major damage to the team if it's capable of inflicting major hit and run damage. I used Salazzle as an example but various mons that are faster that hate it's coverage such as Roserade, Moltres, Heliolisk, Bruxish, etc. can all apply in making a potentially risky decision. Of course simply enough if the fake out doesn't work, well the Hera user is screwed anyway, so it might be like going for broke for a complete momentum shift. This is just a variety of situations I've noticed both in using both Heracross sets and playing against them on how easy it can be to mistake the set from the start unless you can discern of draw out what the full team sets might be to make the most of using Hera against offense.

    I don't think there's any denying that bulky teams have so many Pokemon that are weak to Heracross STABs and coverage on a FO set that Hera is capable of a lot of free set ups against them without much repercussion.

    Teammates / Support - Though seldomly used, a few partners that I like to pair with Hera that makes me think the bug is too much for the tier is that we have access to Porygon2, Cresselia, Rotom Mow/Heat, Xatu, Slowbro/King, Uxie, and Registeel (and some others I guess) that have access to Thunder Wave and strong enough bulk and for most of them recovery that over a course of a match some of them can lure in certain faster offensive threats and paralyze them giving Guts FO a way to wreck havoc against offensive teams. On the flip side we also have Cresselia, Gardevoir, and Shaymin who are Healing Wish (Lunar Dance) users who can take a Heracross who has either been chipped down over a match by SR, Burns, or weak passive damage if it's tried to switch in to get a turn to hit Mons that it gets a second chance at life on destroying teams. Sure there are many Pokemon who can benefit from teammates that use these moves, but I consider it a shallow list on the scope that many Pokemon will have their dedicated checks and counters no matter the set based on type advantages or bulk, where as Heracross' ability to be effective more based on play style and less on specific checks/counters puts way too much stress on teams trying to beat it.

    TL;DR - Heracross is one a Pokemon that restricts a lot of freedom to branch out the metagame due to the lack of dedicated answers to the Guts FO set while also being a detrimental part of the game by virtue of people capable of running the Scarf set which puts a strain on each of the playstyles you can use in RU by some form. It can't run both sets at once, of course, but it's ability to apply pressure while having various soft checks and usually forcing the use of Gligar on pretty much every team if you don't want to outright lose to it makes it a part of the current status quo that needs to go if we wish to start eliminating Pokemon to create a more diverse but balanced metagame. Of which it should honestly be Banned.
  9. Natural Talent

    Natural Talent Don't die trying to live..
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    I'm not gonna go into too many details onto my beliefs on this suspect but, Heracross is definitely an amazing mon and in my opinion a little too good for the tier. With the nerf of Burn and it's decreased residual damage, Heracross's Flame orb SD set is an absolute problem for almost any team it faces. Team building is a lot harder since many mons and builds get absolutely destroyed by this set alone.

    Set (open)

    Heracross @ Flame Orb
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Knock Off
    - Close Combat
    - Swords Dance
    - Facade


    Then we have other sets such as Choice Band Guts and Choice Scarf Moxie. CB can really put dents into some teams while Scarf can clean up late game or just after it revenge kills something.

    Scarf (open)

    Heracross @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Megahorn
    - Close Combat
    - Earthquake
    - Knock Off


    Band (open)

    Heracross @ Choice Band
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Megahorn
    - Close Combat
    - Earthquake
    - Knock Off
    Kableye, MrAldo and Ajna like this.
  10. The Active

    The Active

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    I think heracross long deserved this suspect and here is why. In my experience with heracross, the scarf moxie sets destroy offensively frail teams which usually have few checks to heracross once its gets a moxie boost. The flame orb sets also are horror for more bulky teams because even if you have a check to heracross like doublade it still gets nearly ohkoed by a +2 boosted knock off. florges is 2hkoed by flame orb boosted facade and gligar cant check it unless it has acrobatics. There are a alot of other examples but these are the ones i thought of. The band set still hits relatively hard and once hera gets status it rips through opposing teams with the power of two choice bands plus heracross's huge atk it has almost no switchins but check more easily. In conclusion i think that heracross should be banned because its puts constraints on many playstyles such as stall, hyper offense, bulky offense, etc.
  11. Randomnick

    Randomnick
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    Well, I wouldn't say it destroy offensive teams, I mean...if the suspect was about pressure offense, Sharpedo does it better and in this case it should be suspected, the Guts set is the point. Heracross is a pain for defensive teams, unless you have something like Rest/Z-Haze Cofagrigus (and I wouldn't run this only to stop Hera) or Imprison Sableye, the best "switch" slower teams can have is Gligar, and don't forget after getting Knocked Off Gligar is 2HKOed by Facade, while it's not fast, the problem is not about fast teams, but slow-paced ones will have problems with Hera, I'm sure. There are 2 major reasons why I think it should be banned, for defensive teams you need Gligar + another check such as Moltres or Comfey, even Balance will need checks to stop, and if Gligar doesn't have Acrobatics, it is a fodder for Heracross, Acrobatics help stall against Pangoro and Virizion but Acro Gligar is becoming so common thanks to Hera, I hate how Gligar have the worst 4MSS in the tier: Earthquake, U-Turn, Knock Off, Stealth Rock, Defog, Roost, Acrobatics, Taunt, Toxic, and most times you seem to be forced to use Acrobatics to check Hera. I think for Offense GutsCross is fine, of course you have no switches but you will just run something able to stop it, Guts is a pain for stall or even balance to deal with, most times when I run defensive teams I need to allow Hera to get 1 or 2 kills to at least force it out, thanks to Guts buff it can have a lot of turns and will 2HKO almost anything, Knock Off Gligar, then you can just force a lot of kills. Basically Defensive teams are forced to play really well and still will probably need to sack something to Hera. The other point is how this restrict teambuilding. I think the combination of a decent base Speed + Guts + Swords Dance is just to much for the tier to handle reliably, restricting teambuilding and being really annoying defensive oriented teams.
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  12. Ice Tray

    Ice Tray

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    After laddering quite a bit and eventually getting reqs I'm here to drop my thoughts on Heracross in the RU metagame. I'm going to say stuff that's been said already but that just further proves their points. I never lost to Heracross during my entire laddering because I had Acrobatics Gligar but it's because I was forced to run that set that creates the issue. Heracross has a number of checks in the tier, most of which are Pokemon that outspeed it and can OHKO it like Salazzle, Choice Scarf users etc. but it restricts teambuilding so much and bulkier teams have a really tough time dealing with it even if they play flawlessly. Running Acrobatics on Gligar makes other Pokemon such as DD Flygon hard to deal with because Gligar can't use Toxic to wear it down. Banning Heracross will be beneficial to the tier's growth and won't force ridiculous sets and preparation just to beat Heracross. I find it unhealthy for the metagame and am going to be voting ban.
  13. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas but then what's left of me?
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    Most of the posts in this thread have said something along the lines of Heracross isn't broken, but rather unhealthy for the tier because it is overcentralizing. The question I would pose for those that feel this way is: what amount of centralization is too much centralization? Obviously we don't want too much centralization (ala GSC Snorlax), but at the same time, some amount of centralization is good, idk if anyone has played DPP NU seriously, but its a garbage tier because there are so many "good" pokemon and playstyles that its nearly impossible to build a consistent team. To me the fact Gligar "has" to run Acrobatics (has to as in its a viable option and mandatory on teams weak to heracross), isn't over centralizing, because while it can't counter Flygon, its not like Gligar would always be running Toxic w/o Hera in the tier (knock and u turn are both more common), the reality is you just have to have some other method of dealing with Flygon. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm going to vote DNB on Heracross, I haven't decided yet, but to me "I have to run acrobatics on gligar" is not an example of overcentralization (not to call you specifically out @ above, just so far you're the only one who has attempted to expand on what over centralizing means to you (which is a good thing)), rather just an adaptation to what is inarguably one of the best pokemon in the tier. Some amount of adaptation is going to be necessary for defensively oriented mons regardless of the metagame. So far the pro ban posts have been pretty lazy imo (barring like SV's), not that the anti-ban posts have been any better (I explicitly left choice scarf set out of the OP cause it is not relevant to this test unless people think its broken which people don't seem to think (correctly)).

    In my opinion the most damning part of Heracross isn't its impact on building, but rather that you have to play extremely meticulously whenever you have defensive staples like Umbreon, Registeel, or Gigalith on your team, which on its own is a necessary part of the metagame (and not exclusive to Heracross (Pangoro, Bewear, and Salazzle have a similar effect)), but unlike the others Heracross fines opportunities to switch in plentiful (good bulk and resists) and can outspeed several pokemon that are also common on Bulky Offense and Balance. Still on the fence but I do think the actual team building constraints have been exaggerated while the game play impacts have been essentially ignored in this thread, which seems weird to me.
  14. Miyami~~

    Miyami~~

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    One thing people seem to overlook about Hera vs Stall is that Hera is actually fairly difficult to get into play vs Stall. It's not like it just magically appears on the field and while double switches are certainly a thing, one factor people seem to overlook is that Hera actually takes a lot of residual damage trying to do its job. While the burn nerf did significantly increase Hera's longevity, that doesn't change the fact that it loses a substantial amount of health just switching in on rocks. Then, a lot of the Pokémon on stall it wants to get in on like Umbreon and Regi can either take a large chunk of its health away through Foul Play or Seismic Toss or Protect for more burn damage + a scout and switch out into the appropriate thing to take a hit. I'm not saying that Hera isn't extremely constraining to stall, but Hera lacks longevity and stall does have suitable checks, such as Gligar, who Hera can't even knock off for fear of Acrobatics.

    This isn't to say that Hera is broken, but its weakness to passive damage and how quickly it stacks cannot be ignored. I'm still undecided on what to vote should I get reqs, I just thought I'd throw in my pair of pennies before the suspect ends.
  15. DreamScream

    DreamScream

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    After laddering to get my reqs, I thought I should share my thoughts on Heracross and RU. Without a doubt, Heracross is the biggest threat in the RU tier, in large part because it can fill two roles seamlessly. While it's best set is the guts breaker set, it is one of the most effective scarfers in the meta, being outsped only by Shaymin and Flygon amongst common scarfers. Filling these two roles creates a tremendous strain on teambuilding, as only Gligar serves as a repeated answer to both sets and Heracross threatens both bulky play styles with guts and offensive playstyles with scarf. When I first started my laddering, I was leaning no ban because I felt that once you identify which set Hera is running, he can be dealt with. However, Hera's influence has a greater strain on teambuilding than I foresaw. It is impossible to make a team in the meta without either Gligar, Mantine, Doublade, Veil, or weather, the latter two being very matchup oriented playstyles to begin with. I am usually reluctant to ban mons, but Hera has shrunk the meta to the point where entire playstyles are becoming obsolete (semi-stall and stall most notably) and Balance and BO have to have one of 3 mons or else they lose 100%, and I feel that strain is too much. Because of the strain on teambuilding, I am voting Ban.

    As for gameplay impact, it is tremendous at dismantling teams on it's own, whether mid game or late game. Here is a replay from one of my RU Open games where the entire game came down to a speed tie between two scarfed Heras. Additionally, without the crit, mine had a 74.2% chance to switch in to his Hera, knock it off to win with Swellow, which just shows the bulk of Hera coming into play, something that other offensive threats like Zoroark and Sharepdo don't have. I've played more games where the result has come down to a Heracross speed tie, but this is the only one I have a replay of.

    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-607719348
  16. Randomnick

    Randomnick
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    Hera can Knock Off Gligar on switch (not like it's staying anyway) then 2HKO, and Gligar can OHKO with Acro w/ Evio anyway. The point is that even if Hera doesn't beat stall it's a pain for Stall and almost always os getting rid of 2 or 3 Mons, getting even worse if It have Healing Wish support, it's not like it can 6-0 Stall (I already won with Stall vs Guts Hera and lost to with) but you need to predict really well and almost always you are sacking something. Also I disagree with the above post saying Stall is becoming obsolete, my point is that Hera is a pain for bulkiers teams, you have to be really careful before doing any play that can risk giving Hera a important kill, Balance and Stall are still good playstyles but Hera is annoying. If it switch in Rocks once, you have ~15 turns to 2HKO every mon / Knock Off Gligar, even losing some of them to Protect you will still be able to annoy a "fatter" team and in most cases get some kills, I agree with Hera being banned, (tho after this suspect I agree that Reuniclus is probably the major threat) but imo Hera is broken. I don't think banning Hera would bring any further problems for the tier and imo it is broken due to how it can pressure and annoy Stall and Balance builds.
  17. phantom

    phantom
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    RU Co-Leader

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    The suspect test wasn't too useful in helping me come to a decision. I would have liked a ladder without Heracross so I could see how much better the meta would be off without it. I didn't think there was much of a point in having a ladder with Heracross aside from catering to those who don't play the tier but decided to get voting requirements, which is a minute number of voters anyhow, and it's not like OU or UU got hurt when they removed the suspect from the ladder... Anyway, all I got from this ladder is that a new cheese strat has begun to circulate.

    That being said, I'll probably vote ban on Heracross this time around. I dont find Heracross broken, so I wasn't sure if an edge case should be quick banned via council vote. I used stall throughout this test and I actually find playing against Heracross enjoyable since there's a lot more thought put into each turn, which makes the match a lot more rewarding when you win that way as opposed to setting hazards and switching around to your counters like you'd normally do vs ladder. On the other hand, I think there's a bit of a matchup problem in the tier right now. Heracross is one of the Pokémon that's exacerbating the issue given how some teams really need to bend over backwards to cover it. It sucks losing an offensive mon that can 1HKO Reuniclus, but I think removing Heracross is probably for the best.
  18. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- A Legend Fades Away...
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis the 2nd Smogon Classic Winneris a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

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  19. Ice Tray

    Ice Tray

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    This was discussed in the RU room but I do want to bring it here and see what everyone thinks. With Heracross gone from RU, Reuniclus seems like it might become even better and a lot more threatening considering it can set up on so many Pokemon and avoids being worn down with Toxic thanks to its Magic Guard ability. Not many Pokemon are able to OHKO it and one of its best offensive checks just got banned. With the appropriate team support I think Reuniclus might become of the biggest threats in the metagame in the near future.
    Gorechomp, woofmasterarf and Shasimo like this.
  20. ThatRandomPerson42

    ThatRandomPerson42

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    I want to talk about Z-Mirror Move Honchkrow (not talking about whether it's good or bad, just want to explain it):

    [​IMG]
    Honchkrow @ Flyinium Z
    Ability: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Mirror Move
    - Sucker Punch
    - Brave Bird
    - Superpower


    This set isn't anything new, but it became really popular in ladder ever since Heracross was banned from current gen RU. How it works is that it'll attempt to use Z-Mirror Move, gaining +2 attack. If a slower opponent attempts to use an attack against it, it'll copy that move and convert it into a Z-Move. If a status move by the opponent was used or the opponent switched out, Mirror Move will fail (Honchkrow still gets the +2 attack). Note that Honchkrow has the ability Moxie, then it'll gain +1 attack for every opponent it KOs. This Pokemon at +2 has Sucker Punch to attempt to go first and damage the target, Brave Bird to KO foes like Escavalier, Mantine, and Milotic, and Superpower to OHKO threats like Registeel, Gigalith, and Porygon2. Of course, Honchkrow has its flaws. The fact that Honchkrow relies on Sucker Punch against faster opponents means that it can be set up on. Priority users like Glalie-M and Comfey can check Honchkrow and revenge kill it.

    Back then, the everpresent Heracross was able to check Honchkrow, being able to take a +3 Sucker Punch and therefore stopping its sweeps. Now with the bug out of its way, Honchkrow has less to worry about getting in its way. This should explain the Z-Mirror Move Honchkrow hype in the RU ladder. However, Kommo-o remains as another Honchkrow check, being able to take a +3 Sucker Punch like Heracross and revenge killing it. I'll leave it up to you guys to discuss about your opinions on it, but this is an example of a Heracross ban effect, with others like Gligar now being able to afford Taunt instead of Acrobatics.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
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  21. 6ft Torbjorn

    6ft Torbjorn formerly JoycapJoshST

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    Good evening, ladies and gents. I've been away from RU since roughly the end of Alpha, but have returned in an attempt to find something slightly different.

    Now the question I would like to ask is - what is RU's thoughts on Ribombee? In my research, I have found it to be a superb wincon vs weakened teams, be it offensive (using it's superb 124 base speed to force switches and setup with QD) or the slightly bulkier (using the support of hazard stackers such as Ferroseed; Froslass; Qwilfish and others). Here is the set I have been using (and for those who have watched SAO - you'll get the reference):

    ribombee.gif
    Yui (Ribombee) (F) @ Fairium Z
    Ability: Shield Dust
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Quiver Dance
    - Moonblast
    - Psychic
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Replay example:
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-612168889

    And before you rag on me for it being low ladder, I'm starting from the bottom up (started from this afternoon, actually).

    Using the residual damage from Spikes and SR (supplied by the core of Ferroseed + Donphan in my example), Ribombee can easily punch holes in a good few teams using Fairy/Psychic/Fire coverage (it's only true resist being Delphox, which could be Bug Buzz for all it knows). 1 QB boost allows it to outspeed basically the entire unboosted tier outside of 125+ Speed scarfers (alas, are unrealistic at best). Fairium Z allows me to blast past a good handful of potential remaining checks after SR/1 layer of spikes at +1, such as...
    • +1 252 SpA Ribombee Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Rhyperior: 393-463 (90.7 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
    • +1 252 SpA Ribombee Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 325-384 (97.3 - 114.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • +1 252 SpA Ribombee Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 298-352 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
    • +1 252 SpA Ribombee Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 288-340 (89.4 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
    • +1 252 SpA Ribombee Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Incineroar: 375-442 (95.1 - 112.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

    Now I'm not saying Ribombee is invincible (hell, it's only C- on the VR for a reason) - Finding setup can be a little tricky at times, and it's weakness spread isn't exactly forgiving. But knowing the options it does have (such as Specs; the aforementioned QD and others) and 124 base speed alongside it's unique Bug/Fairy typing, it's something that I can see having at least a niche in the coming months.

    So, thoughts?
    Many likes this.
  22. Rakan

    Rakan Let's dance!
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

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    I'm going to give a brief response as to why Ribombee is a very suboptimal choice. First of all, half those calcs are irrelevant since Rhyperior will never stay in due to the threat of Energy Ball, Incineroar does not exist in the current metagame, and Gligar obviously doesn't take special hits very well. The only relevant calc is Dragalge, which is a risk anyway, since it can OHKO with Sludge Wave and isn't OHKOed without SR or spikes. Most special walls like Mantine and Milotic can easily take a +1 attack and Haze or Toxic in return. Hidden Power Fire also does a pittance to Registeel and Bronzong. It's also weak to SR which can severely hinder its setup opportunities. While Quiver Dance may seem enticing, slapping on a Z-move doesn't suddenly make it viable, unlike in the case of Venomoth, which possesses unresisted coverage thanks to Tinted Lens as well as access to Sleep Powder. With regards to your replay, I don't think I need to explain why that isn't a good example of how Ribombee can do well, considering your opponent was literally 6-0ed by it and played horribly. If I wanted to use Ribombee at all, (I don't, ftr) I'd use the Specs variant which hits hard off the bat and preserves momentum with U-Turn. In conclusion, its opportunities to set up are just so limited without access to Sleep Powder and it doesn't do much damage without expending its Z-move and is still walled by Steel-types.

    Also this turned out to be longer than a brief response but whatever lol.
  23. 6ft Torbjorn

    6ft Torbjorn formerly JoycapJoshST

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    Rakan I suppose that's fair enough, and I respect what you're saying for the most part. The only bit I would rebuttal is this bit:
    Note how I use QD Ribombee in the context of cleanup / a lategame sweep. Mantine and Milotic are highly susceptible to Toxic themselves, and the former is fairly passive for teammates to pray on. In the case of Registeel and Bronzong - they are two walls that get warn down by entry hazards and the like, with no proper sustain. If I try to set up the sweep with those you say wall it still healthy in the back - would I go through with it? No - I would never jump the gun like that. To be frank, no one would.

    Other then the above - the rest is fine. Thank you.
  24. Joe Career

    Joe Career

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    Messages:
    85
    Mega Audino just dropped.

    Not sure how it will fair in the current meta but it looks theoretically decent, especially considering the huge lack of megas, and thus the very small opportunity cost.
    6ft Torbjorn likes this.
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