np: RU Stage 4 - Deck the Halls

[Full2Half]

or potentially sub stall along with rain and rain dish, then attack with surf/hydro pump. or just regular subseed without rain.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Ludicolo isn't necessarily almighty under the rain, and outside of it, it struggles to make any actual impact before dying of Life Orb + excess damage. It's performance in upper tiers has no bearing on lower tiers as well (with the exception of bans such as Drought). I know Ludicolo is stopped by ALOT in RU, even under the rain.

This is coming from some one who does use Rain Dance + Swift swim Pokemon in all available tiers.

Edit: When you're overly reliant on Rain to actually keep you alive in a game of SubSeed, it's definitely not broken. I think you yourself simply have trouble beating it, just like anybody else with other threats.

 

[Full2Half]

i also have to say, for myself if not anyone else, that tangrowth can also be a major problem in ru. ive used a physicly bulky regenerator set and it has completely dominated every time ive used it. along with knock off and leech seed, he also supports somewhat well. not to mention high spc atk and hp stats and chlorphyll for offencive varients.

 

[Full2Half]

sceptile with unburden max atk flying gem is also successful often for me, but that's from my experiance in ru.

 

[tagama]

i think ludicolo should go. it can set up a rain dance and wreck for the next few turns with it's rain/LO set. and it's nonetheless very good in uu as well.

I don't see rain teams very much but yea, life orb ludicolo can take down a few pokes for a team who doesn't have snover. I don't think it will go because snover is in the tier and lately theres been an increase of hail teams. Besides snover, the only other counter to life orb rain dance modest ludicolo is munchlax.

 

[kniteowl]

munchlax still has to worry about focus blast thought but if focus blast isn't a big problem for you then SpD ferroseed can also cripple ludicolo with thunder wave.

You can also try to stall out rain with protect or substitute, depending on the pokemon you're using.

 

[Thatsjustpeachy]

Ludicolo isn't necessarily almighty under the rain, and outside of it, it struggles to make any actual impact before dying of Life Orb + excess damage. It's performance in upper tiers has no bearing on lower tiers as well (with the exception of bans such as Drought). I know Ludicolo is stopped by ALOT in RU, even under the rain.

This is coming from some one who does use Rain Dance + Swift swim Pokemon in all available tiers.

Edit: When you're overly reliant on Rain to actually keep you alive in a game of SubSeed, it's definitely not broken. I think you yourself simply have trouble beating it, just like anybody else with other threats.

I've used RD in RU many times and Ludicolo does deserve the almighty status. Unless your opponent has a munchlax or ferrothorn, STAB LO surf with rain just rampages through anything that doesn't resist it and can Ko many pokes that do try to switch in to the surf with the next attack. Unless you pack the right resist and win the prediction game, you can say goodbye to at least half your team and this is just one swift swim sweeper(I tend to use ludicolo as a lategame sweeper). Obviously the rise in hail makes an RD team much harder to use but I am still surprised at the lack of Rain Dance teams in RU.

 

[hamiltonion]

I've used RD in RU many times and Ludicolo does deserve the almighty status. Unless your opponent has a munchlax or ferrothorn, STAB LO surf with rain just rampages through anything that doesn't resist it and can Ko many pokes that do try to switch in to the surf with the next attack. Unless you pack the right resist and win the prediction game, you can say goodbye to at least half your team and this is just one swift swim sweeper(I tend to use ludicolo as a lategame sweeper). Obviously the rise in hail makes an RD team much harder to use but I am still surprised at the lack of Rain Dance teams in RU.

Just saying that I have to agree to this sentiment. I ran Rain and it was really excellent. The thing about Rain I like is that it is pretty much self sustaining. By that I mean that while running a Rain team momentum can be conserved quite easily within the main sweepers themselves. For example Sun completely fucked by Entei and priority (Sucka Punch) and to play around that you have to use a bulky Rock type like Rhydon (screwed by Honch with HP Grass) or Regirock. And like peachy said most teams arent prepared to face Rain. Ferroseed and Munchlax are pretty much the only reliable checks, who get smashed to bits by Gallade who can also set up Rain Dance. Stuff like SS Omastar also enjoy Rain and thanks to Swift Swim, he can do well even without SS.

 

[Honko]

Speaking of Regirock, people saying Stunfisk is Honchkrow's only counter should give the golem a try. With a little investment in Defense (56 EVs Impish) it never gets 2HKOed by LO Superpower even after SR, and Stone Edge easily OHKOes back; in other words, it's a counter. Regirock also solidly counters Entei and most Moltres with the right spread; that's 3 of the 4 top offensive Pokemon according to last month's usage stats, plus a bunch of lesser threats like Scolipede, Swellow, etc, so it's not like it's useless outside of countering Honchy. It sets up SR, spreads paralysis, and dishes out damage better than most other walls. It's not perfect, but I think a lot of people are dismissing it too quickly.

Here's the set I used:

[SET]
name: Tank
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Thunder Wave
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Drain Punch / Earthquake
item: Leftovers
ability: Clear Body
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 132 Atk / 56 Def / 68 SpD

The Attack is enough to always OHKO Entei after SR and just to generally avoid being set-up bait, but moving some/all of that to SpD would help take on Moltres even better, since right now it will occasionally 2HKO with HP Grass.

And if you don't want to use a slow Pokemon like Regirock or Stunfisk or Steelix because you're determined that heavy offense is the only true playstyle, then ffs put Substitute on something. Getting swept by a Pokemon with base 71 Speed because you're too stubborn to carry anything that would get around Sucker Punch is just embarrassing. Some good offensive Pokemon that are faster than Honchkrow and use Substitute effectively: Rotom, Moltres (offensive SubRoost is excellent and more people should use it), Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Gallade, Sceptile, etc. Faster priority users work too, like Entei and Feraligatr (SD Feraligatr is another set that needs more love, it tears shit apart). As long as you don't ignore Honchkrow when making your team, you shouldn't be getting swept. Sometimes you may get outpredicted and lose, but the odds are in your favor: you can Sub on Brave Bird 4 times before you lose, but if Honchkrow Sucker Punches on Sub or attacks when you attack even once, it's dead.

tl;dr Use Regirock, Offensive SubRoost Moltres, and SD Feraligatr.

 

[Nails]

As long as you don't ignore Honchkrow when making your team, you shouldn't be getting swept. Sometimes you may get outpredicted and lose, but the odds are in your favor: you can Sub on Brave Bird 4 times before you lose, but if Honchkrow Sucker Punches on Sub or attacks when you attack even once, it's dead.

and if honchkrow does brave bird all four (five if you have leftovers) times it'll take 40% from life orb recoil and shit tons from bb recoil, as well as the sr damage and damage it took from setting up its sub. combine that with will-o-wisp, which cripples honchkrow without a sub and dodges sucker punch, and subwisp rotom is a fairly reliable honchkrow counter (not a hard counter to honchkrow, but it does counter the main set). obviously it can't switch into many brave birds but you could do a lot worse on an offensive team.

On ludicolo, it's like most other fast sweepers like omastar etc. You need to set up and it's revenge killed by honchkrow and entei. I just feel like people have become more willing to run a honchkrow check since it's been in the tier for a while, making it less effective, and so less teams have powerful sucker punches to fall back on. Same with entei. Less priority in the tier means fast sweepers get better.

 

[Double01]

the thing about honchkrow (unlike many other pokemon) is that when building a team one of the first things that come into your mind (especially offensive team) is you need a honchkrow counter or at least a plan on how you will take on honchkrow because honchkrow is so dominant. You have to leave a spot open on your team just to deal with honchkrow such as klinklang or rotom. I don't think any other pokemon cause you to make a spot just to counter a certain pokemon. As said before Honchkrow brakes sweeps and can sweep itself. Although they are predictable every once in a while you will come across a mix crow that will completely destroy your team. That's why I stand by my decision of banning honchkrow. It's one of the few pokes that you have to compensate at least one team members so you can counter Honchkrow.

 

[Nails]

if you don't run a honchkrow switch in you also lose to swellow, braviary, and every other bird. you need a flying resist on your team anyways. hochkrow is just more common because it has utility outside of brave bird spam (Sucker punch).

 

[alexwolf]

Natu is amazing!
I have been using one physical defensive with Reflect,T-Wave,Roost and U-Turn and most of the time i easily keep hazards off the field.
It takes on most of the common hazard layers easily and provides team support with T-Wave and Reflect.
Uxie,Ferroseed,Qwilfish,Accelgor,Steelix and Claydol are all easily stopped!

 

[Double01]

I wouldnt say u need a hard counter like u do for Honchkrow because Braviary is most likely scarfed and has to lock it self into a move while Swellow is easily revenged killed (Quick Attack can kill weak revengers but still.) besides Honchkrow is much more dangerous because of Moxie and the ability to run a mix set (again not very common at all but still viable)

 

[EonADS]

I feel a bit like I'm beating a dead horse here, but whatever. It lets me make my own points on Honchkrow.

the thing about honchkrow (unlike many other pokemon) is that when building a team one of the first things that come into your mind (especially offensive team) is you need a honchkrow counter or at least a plan on how you will take on honchkrow because honchkrow is so dominant.

This is false. My last team had no direct way to deal with Honchkrow and was not built with Honchkrow in mind, yet it still made #25 on the rankings board. I'm sure mine isn't the only one.

Also, other Pokemon/strategies can do this too. If you lack a bulky Fire resist, your team will get shredded by Moltres. If you don't have a Blizzard absorber, Hail teams will run you through.

You have to leave a spot open on your team just to deal with honchkrow such as klinklang or rotom. I don't think any other pokemon cause you to make a spot just to counter a certain pokemon.

The thing is you don't have to leave a spot open to deal with Honchkrow. Did you read Honko's post at all or are you just ignoring everything he said?

And if you don't want to use a slow Pokemon like Regirock or Stunfisk or Steelix because you're determined that heavy offense is the only true playstyle, then ffs put Substitute on something. Getting swept by a Pokemon with base 71 Speed because you're too stubborn to carry anything that would get around Sucker Punch is just embarrassing. Some good offensive Pokemon that are faster than Honchkrow and use Substitute effectively: Rotom, Moltres (offensive SubRoost is excellent and more people should use it), Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Gallade, Sceptile, etc.

If you don't want to run a Honchkrow counter, use Substitute on something that's faster than it. Or just play around it by predicting and switching carefully. It's not even difficult. At all.

As said before Honchkrow brakes sweeps and can sweep itself.

So can Entei. So can Hitmonlee. So can Gallade. So can Kabutops. So can Feraligatr. So can Sharpedo. So can freaking Carracosta. And so on and so forth.

Also, breaks > brakes. Honchkrow is not a car.

Although they are predictable every once in a while you will come across a mix crow that will completely destroy your team.

"Although Entei is easily predicted, every once in a while you will come across a SubCM Entei that will completely destroy your team."

"Although Gallade usually runs a Bulk Up set, every so often a Swords Dance sweeper will come along and sweep your team aside."

"Although Slowking is usually a defensive Pokemon, every so often a Trick Room sweeper will come along and annhilate half your team without reply."

"Although Rhydon is usually a bulky attacker, sometimes a Rock Polish or Double Dance sweeper will come up and kill you."

And so on.

This argument basically boils down to "because Honchkrow doesn't always run the same set and thus doesn't have the exact same counters every time, it deserves to be banned." Newsflash: this goes for every major threat in RU, or in any teir for that matter. Hell, it goes for most Pokemon in general.

That's why I stand by my decision of banning honchkrow. It's one of the few pokes that you have to compensate at least one team members so you can counter Honchkrow.

See above.

I wouldnt say u need a hard counter like u do for Honchkrow because Braviary is most likely scarfed and has to lock it self into a move while Swellow is easily revenged killed (Quick Attack can kill weak revengers but still.) besides Honchkrow is much more dangerous because of Moxie and the ability to run a mix set (again not very common at all but still viable)

He didn't say you needed a hard counter, just a switch-in, meaning a Flying resist.

if you don't run a honchkrow switch in you also lose to swellow, braviary, and every other bird. you need a flying resist on your team anyways. hochkrow is just more common because it has utility outside of brave bird spam (Sucker punch).

I don't see the words "hard" or "counter" anywhere in this post.


Tbh, Honchkrow has three major selling points: Sucker Punch, Moxie, and the ability to wallbreak. Moxie is unreliable and doesn't let it get around its hard counters, not to mention illegal with all of Honchkrow's wallbreaking options (Hidden Power Grass sucks, HP Fire is worse). Sucker Punch is negated by Substitute, faster priority, and skillful prediction, not to mention that it is the least reliable Priority move bar none because it fails if your opponent isn't attacking you. Phazing, status moves, and switch all fly under its radar. The wallbreaker set is about as fast as a runaway shopping cart and intensely vulnerable to both status and faster Pokemon.

Honchkrow has not one, but two hard counters for all its sets; Stunfisk and Regirock, and they're not just counters to Honchkrow but several other threats as well. It's also slow and frail. Sucker Punch doesn't negate its pathetic speed stat; it's simply a patch job, and a rather shoddy one at that. If it were faster or bulkier, it might be broken. As it is, it's simply a dangerous Pokemon which you should consider when building a team, just like a dozen+ others.

 

[Fuchsia]

I don't usually have a problem with Honchcrow, and I don't don't even run a flying resist. I rely on Entei's extremespeed, Haunter's substitute, or Rotom's trick.

 

[Honko]

I think Rotom is actually more annoying than Honchkrow in terms of teambuilding. SubSplit beats a lot of teams if they don't bring a check. Luckily Krookodile is a great Pokemon that also counters Rotom (unless it's SubWisp...), but once Krook moves to UU Rotom will be even more annoying. I find myself sticking Lanturn on a lot of teams where Slowking would be a better fit, just because I need a Rotom check. It will be interesting to see which Dark-type rises to take Krook's place as Rotom killer: Drapion? Skuntank? Sneasel, or Weavile if it drops? Too bad Shiftry doesn't get Pursuit.

(If anybody tries to use this post as an argument that Rotom is broken I will slap them with a billion Bonsly.)

 

[Double01]

@EonADS I have only been looking it from my point of view (very Hyper-Offensive team) Where Honchkrow is a must and u do need to compensate a spot for a honchkrow counter. For a balance, stall, or a regular offensive team you may not have to compensate a check to honchkrow at all. And by check I mean a pokemon that can beat Honchkrow 1v1 such as rotom or klinklang. (Again talking from a hyper offensive play style)

So can Entei. So can Hitmonlee. So can Gallade. So can Kabutops. So can Feraligatr. So can Sharpedo. So can freaking Carracosta. And so on and so forth.

Saying Honchkrow is just like Hitmonchan or Entei is false in my opinion. Yes Hitmonchan and Entei can break sweeps, just like any 'mon with priority. Yet none of those pokemon gain a Moxie Boost making it extremely deadly to a team. That why I said he can become an either a more potent threat than any of those pokes that you listed earlier.
I am only saying this from an hyper-offensive view point which is probably extremely unfair to judge a pokemon from only one style of play. He probably won't get banned because I was kind of ignorant and only looking it at it from one point of view where you have looked at it from many playing styles. Yet, he is the most broken pokemon to a hyper-offensive team which probably doesn't mean anything because many other forms of play can handle Honchkrow quite well.

NP Porygon-Z was probably the most broken thing to stall teams and yet it didn't get banned so Honchkrow may not either.

 

[RotatingAtom]

Yo.

I still don't really have an overview over what will drop and what will rise to UU in January. Can someone confirm my (approximate) list here?

Moving to UU:

Qwilfish
Krookodile

Dropping from UU to RU:

Sigilyph
Aerodactyl
Weavile
Whimsicott :(

I'm sure I missed some. Please enlighten me on that.

 

[Fyre5x5]

I would love if aero and weavile dropped! So fast and make great banders! I need a new revenge killer. I'll be sad to see krook go cuz though he is probably one of my favorite new 5th gen revengers and he did so well in ru. I'll be glad that damn qwilfish will be gone cuz he just annoys the hell out of me. Although these are based on your speculations so who knows if these are true! (Cuz i don't haha)

 

[hamiltonion]

I'm sure I missed some. Please enlighten me on that.

Hippopotas. Though since Hippodown got banned in UU, it might see a bit more usage so you cant really say.

Is Weavile coming down ? I really dont think so since it registered a 6% usage in UU. I doubt any of the Pokemon coming down would really trouble RU. Whimsicott is easily checked by the Grass-types and Sap Sipper users, Nidoqueen doesnt really shine in any particular aspect though it can easily take Qwilfish's spot as a bulky Poison type and Toxic Spiker. The most prospective entrant seems to be Golurk. With Rotom leaving, it could make a good spinblocker and that Focus Punch so strong.

 

[Cherub Agent]

rotom's leaving?

 

[alexwolf]

What do you people run to deal with Bulk Up Gallade in offensive teams?

 

[Cherub Agent]

i find the best answer to bulk up gallade to be standard offensive moltres with air slash

 

[marilli]

Qwilfish is a good one, with taunt to stop it from setting up (and spikes up which is good for offensive teams of course) Considering it often runs one of Substitute / Taunt, and Night Slash / Shadow Sneak / Ice Punch as coverage, Life Orb Moltres is yet another good counter that does a bunch with Air Slash. Oh, and Bulk Up Gallade tend not to run much speed, so a Honchkrow can probably outspeed that too.