np: RU Stage 5 - Dark Side of the Moon

[DittoCrow]

When I use TR + NP Cofagrigus I usually get at least one KO per game, but that's it. I find that I have trouble bringing it in on non-resistant moves because of the lack of bulk. Like Heysup mentioned, it's pretty hard to set up both TR and NP. I usually find myself picking just one of those moves. If I can't set up both then Cofagrigus doesn't live for long, as I will explain below. This strategy works best against slower teams, so just make sure you pack a fast Pokemon like Entei that can take a +0 Shadow Ball. It is an extremely good Pokemon, but not unbeatable.

Beating TR + NP Cofagrigus is relatively easy. You just need to keep putting pressure on it. Because this is a more offensive set, it is much less bulky and thus easier to wear down. It doesn't have Rest either, making it even easier to beat. That's why it functions best as a late game sweeper, KOing weakened Pokemon under Trick Room.

The best counters that I can think of are SpDef Mandibuzz, Spiritomb, Drapion, and Roselia (with Sleep Powder). I didn't mention Munchlax because it loses 1 on 1, and a +4 HP Fighting does 48.53 - 57.52% :D (I just beat a Munchlax with Cofag last night).

Other stuff that can do huge damage like Honchkrow and Entei are also decent checks to Cofagrigus, putting it into KO range.

 

[sheniqua]

gah its annoying having every team on the ladder be a super heavy offensive hazards team. Three times in a row i faced a team with Final Gambit + Spikes Accelegor and Aerodactyl. How are you guys beating this? I can't seem to be able to get a spin off.

 

[DittoCrow]

Hitmonchan (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Keen Eye
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Foresight
- Rapid Spin
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch

If you're desperate... use a Fake Out Unburden Hitmonlee with Rapid Spin lol. Natu always works too or Magic Coat Smeargle. I usually use stuff like Scarf Manectric to beat Accelgor. Overheat 2HKOs so Accelgor only gets 1 layer up.

 

[complete legitimacy]

gah its annoying having every team on the ladder be a super heavy offensive hazards team. Three times in a row i faced a team with Final Gambit + Spikes Accelegor and Aerodactyl. How are you guys beating this? I can't seem to be able to get a spin off.

Hitmonchan (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Keen Eye
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Foresight
- Rapid Spin
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch

If you're desperate... use a Fake Out Unburden Hitmonlee with Rapid Spin lol. Natu always works too or Magic Coat Smeargle. I usually use stuff like Scarf Manectric to beat Accelgor. Overheat 2HKOs so Accelgor only gets 1 layer up.

If he's talking about ShakeItUp's team, which uses things like Combusken and Skuntank, then it also has a TR NP Cofagrigus, which cockblocks any attempt to Rapid Spin. You basically just have to have counters to all of the Pokemon individually, and hope that it doesn't get too many hazards up before you just get overrun. The team itself is absurdly effective, however a defensive core of Mandibuzz and Ferroseed can actually stop everything on that team. I'm sure we've all faced it numerous times, and eventually you begin to find ways to stop it.

 

[hamiltonion]

IMO usually the best way I've found to stop a heavy offense or for that matter even use one is to force your opponent to respond to you and not respond to him. If you start a reactive style of play, then you are basically playing into his hands and allowing him to gain momentum. This is true for all tiers and for all offensive teams.

 

[spuds4ever]

Coming from a player who plays HO, I would say the best counters to HO are pokemon that can wall things, still have offensive presence, and even set up hazards (which is every HO player's nightmare). Qwilfish is a perfect example of this, drapion is good too.

Hazards and forcing switches is honestly the best way to beat HO.

I can't say I've seen a lot of accelgor really, even though I use it myself. I find defensive teams or bulky offense teams, very often utilizing the ever-irritating uxie, are the most common around. But I guess it's different for every player.

 

[alexwolf]

Like I said in my previous post, Mandibuzz is not something that can just be thrown on a team. If you try to prepare for Cofagrigus, you get wrecked by so many other things. If teams are looking for a reliable special wall, they will more often than not use Slowking.

Mandibuzz is not something you can throw into any type of team, but she fits perfectly in stall teams. Also Mandibuzz checks or counters a shitton of other things, so you have plenty of room to cover all these other things that wreck you if you prepare for Cofagrigus. Finally please stop undervaluing Mandibuzz. Because you see her just as a special wall with a SR weakness, doesn't mean she is. She walls very different things, has immensely better physical defense, can Taunt and phaze behind subs, while having a very good speed for a wall. Slowking fits better in most teams, because most of them are offensive and Mandibuzz is a stall mon.

Finally you said nothing about the other mons i mentioned like Munchlax and Drapion.

 

[Heysup]

Those tactics might work if the HO user doesn't have a pivot. I guess this is why people are confused as to why Claydol usage is so high. The reason is that a really solid HO team will have a defensive pivot, maybe even two. These Pokemon obviously have to hit hard or serve multiple purposes (Claydol fits in the latter category) by Spinning, Stealth Rocking, Screening, Exploding, Checking etc. Same reason why lots of people use Froslass in UU, it just does so much in one slot of your team, you can actually have another powerful sweeper instead of carrying two mons to do those jobs. I mean, you can use just Claydol (/Torkoal/Sandslash) + something like Hitmonlee, Entei, Honchkrow etc, or you can use (for example), Uxie AND Hitmonchan. You gain a lot of power by using something like Claydol even though he seems like a shitty mon. I went a little off topic there, but the point is that you can't just cover a couple Pokemon, force them out, and win vs a HO team. They will most likely have good switches into your check, especially if said mon is really weak and only has one viable attacking move (for example Mandibuzz is Aggron bait if I've ever seen it).

tl;dr ^ my rant about defensive pivots on HO teams.

 

[spuds4ever]

Yeah, a HO team without pivots is a failed HO team 99% of the time. Rotom-C and Gligar are among some of the best for HO IMO as they still have offensive presence (though you'll need some investment in gligar's case) and have access to scouting moves, giving a sweeper a safe switch which is fundamental to make HO work.

My point was, that as HO teams are frail and thus have to switch a lot, forcing them out, even if it's just for hazards damage, is very beneficial. The toughest thing for the defensive player to do is to stop the sweeper that the HO sees he doesn't have a solid check for. HO vs. defensive teams often turn into a battle of getting in the dangerous sweeper in safely and getting him to set up safely as well if need be and perhaps getting rid of his one possible check ASAP. It is a very strategical game when playing as and against HO but nonetheless very entertaining.

 

[complete legitimacy]

Mandibuzz is not something you can throw into any type of team, but she fits perfectly in stall teams. Also Mandibuzz checks or counters a shitton of other things, so you have plenty of room to cover all these other things that wreck you if you prepare for Cofagrigus. Finally please stop undervaluing Mandibuzz. Because you see her just as a special wall with a SR weakness, doesn't mean she is. She walls very different things, has immensely better physical defense, can Taunt and phaze behind subs, while having a very good speed for a wall. Slowking fits better in most teams, because most of them are offensive and Mandibuzz is a stall mon.

Finally you said nothing about the other mons i mentioned like Munchlax and Drapion.

I don't think stall is as viable in this metagame as you make it out to be. Honestly, semistall is better than stall right now, since you can prepare for almost all threats using only four or five Pokemon. Plus, there are a number of things that use Rest and Sleep Talk to avoid Toxic, as well as a number of Heal Bell users.

You are correct when you say that Munchlax beats it, however, and I had forgotten at the time of that post how ridiculously bulky it is. It even outspeeds Cofagrigus under Trick Room. However, I think I'd rather use something like Clefable, which has Wish and Heal Bell as well as Magic Guard.

I have not used Drapion, nor faced many, so I cannot say for sure how well it does or doesn't work. But I can say that it only has 70 HP and 75 Sp. Def, while being vulnerable to both Stealth Rock and Spikes. It also has a weak Attack stat uninvested, and since Cofagrigus has huge Defense, I have doubts about how it can function as a counter.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Okay, about Drapion:

it is not a counter to Cofagrigus. For starters, it's hazard weak (except tspikes, but those aren't that common) and has to switch in. That means Cofagirgus either uses Will-o-Wisp, Nasty Plot, Shadow Ball, or Hidden Power on you. If he uses WoW or NP, you're at a huge disadvantage (WoW just fucks you), if he uses an attack, no big deal.

Then, a max Attack invested Drapion Crunch against Cofagrigus does not even 2KO, which means he gets to set up Trick Room too. After that, he's at +2 with Trick Room, so if you didn't switch in correctly, he wins. I've played many battles with Cofagrigus and Drapion, and often Cofagrigus wins.

 

[alexwolf]

I don't think stall is as viable in this metagame as you make it out to be. Honestly, semistall is better than stall right now, since you can prepare for almost all threats using only four or five Pokemon. Plus, there are a number of things that use Rest and Sleep Talk to avoid Toxic, as well as a number of Heal Bell users.

You are correct when you say that Munchlax beats it, however, and I had forgotten at the time of that post how ridiculously bulky it is. It even outspeeds Cofagrigus under Trick Room. However, I think I'd rather use something like Clefable, which has Wish and Heal Bell as well as Magic Guard.

I have not used Drapion, nor faced many, so I cannot say for sure how well it does or doesn't work. But I can say that it only has 70 HP and 75 Sp. Def, while being vulnerable to both Stealth Rock and Spikes. It also has a weak Attack stat uninvested, and since Cofagrigus has huge Defense, I have doubts about how it can function as a counter.

Let's not get into an arguement of whether or not, full stall is viable in this metagame or not. Let's just agree that Mandibuzz is a viable poke in RU and it fully counters Cofagrigus alright?

Also about Drapion, i was talking about the specially defensive variant, which uses maximum hp and s.def and has Whirlwind, so it easily phazes NP Cofagrigus, which is the one we are talking about. The best that Cofagrigus can do to Drapion is 33.72 - 40.11% damage, if it used NP on the switch. As you can see it isn't breaking Drapion anytime soon. And don't tell me that Drapion is going to be worn down, if you have a brain you will use it with Wish support and even Heal Bell support (hint, Clefable has both).

Okay, about Drapion:

it is not a counter to Cofagrigus. For starters, it's hazard weak (except tspikes, but those aren't that common) and has to switch in. That means Cofagirgus either uses Will-o-Wisp, Nasty Plot, Shadow Ball, or Hidden Power on you. If he uses WoW or NP, you're at a huge disadvantage (WoW just fucks you), if he uses an attack, no big deal.

Then, a max Attack invested Drapion Crunch against Cofagrigus does not even 2KO, which means he gets to set up Trick Room too. After that, he's at +2 with Trick Room, so if you didn't switch in correctly, he wins. I've played many battles with Cofagrigus and Drapion, and often Cofagrigus wins.

I was talking about Specially Defensive Drapion, which IS a counter to any Cofagrigus, especially with Heal Bell support to get rid of possible burns. Against offensive CM or NP variants it easily takes anything (the best that Cofagrigus can do is 33.72 - 40.11% damage with a NP) and phazes it with WW. Against defensive variants, it simply takes the burn and starts to set up T-spikes, then switches out to the cleric to heal the burn.

 

[Double01]

I wouldnt say you absolutely NEED a defensive pivot on a HO team. But having a defensive really eases the prediction needed and it allows to regain momentum. My HO has been in top 10 for last 3 rounds and i have no volt/turn pokes or a defensive mon with hazards or rapid spin and all of my pokes can sweep. You just need to build a team with good offensive synergy. You have to know which poke walls your poke and know which poke to sacrifice so you can regain the momentum. Knowing which poke you need to sacrifice is key. But you just need to always try to keep the momentum in your favor and sometimes you have to make risky predictions to do so. I probably explained this poorly but having a defensive pivot is important but it's not required. Knowing which poke to death fodder is the biggest pivot you can do to put you in the best position to win.

 

[Rakan]

Not to mention that in order for ANY strategy to work, you need a good player. That's just self-explanatory. Hyper Offense is obviously the easiest playstyle to be successful with, simply because you can haphazardly throw together a team of offensive behemoths and proceed to wreck the opponent's team, if played well. I'm really liking rain this round btw... xD

 

[Double01]

Not to mention that in order for ANY strategy to work, you need a good player. That's just self-explanatory. Hyper Offense is obviously the easiest playstyle to be successful with, simply because you can haphazardly throw together a team of offensive behemoths and proceed to wreck the opponent's team, if played well. I'm really liking rain this round btw... xD

HO play style maybe the easiest playstyle for short term success but as you get higher up in the ranks players handle hyper offensive teams better. I've changed 1 poke on my HO team through 3 rounds of playing and it's quite hard IMO to have a succesful and consistent HO team. As HO has to deal with TR teams, weather teams, and stall teams to be succesful. You can't just throw offensive behemoths on a team and expect to have long term success. You have to be able to deal with many threats. Plus if you want short term success just use a TR team with cofagrigus I swear people seem to have no answer to this thing even though it's very overused and a little over hyped.

 

[D4RR3N]

HO play style maybe the easiest playstyle for short term success but as you get higher up in the ranks players handle hyper offensive teams better. I've changed 1 poke on my HO team through 3 rounds of playing and it's quite hard IMO to have a succesful and consistent HO team. As HO has to deal with TR teams, weather teams, and stall teams to be succesful. You can't just throw offensive behemoths on a team and expect to have long term success. You have to be able to deal with many threats. Plus if you want short term success just use a TR team with cofagrigus I swear people seem to have no answer to this thing even though it's very overused and a little over hyped.

Agreeing with this, HO is really good, but what annoys me is that HO could never have long term success. Besides that, the win/lose ratio of the majority of HO teams are p much 50/50. One good prediction from your opponent may be costing the match, or a burn, or a crit, etc. But if you're a player who heavily relys on prediction to win, HO is the way to go. Otherwise, balanced teams would be having more consistency.

 

[spuds4ever]

Agreeing with this, HO is really good, but what annoys me is that HO could never have long term success. Besides that, the win/lose ratio of the majority of HO teams are p much 50/50. One good prediction from your opponent may be costing the match, or a burn, or a crit, etc. But if you're a player who heavily relys on prediction to win, HO is the way to go. Otherwise, balanced teams would be having more consistency.

Yeah. Higher up the ladder, there are a lot more players prepared for HO. It's definetely the easiest player style to ladder up to about 1150 but after that, I would say it's one of the toughest to play if you're against a player who knows how to handle your strategy.

That's why, IMO, one of the best policies in HO is being unorthodox, like perhaps adding another element to your team (in my case I added rain) or use a pokemon that has a lot of potential but needs a lot of team support to work (archeops for example) or just using very unexpected sets. This is key in my view to catching the opponent off-guard and keep them on their back-foot as you mantain pressure.

 

[Heysup]

Obviously you should use what suits you, but it's been a pretty consistent trend that offense is not the best way to climb the ladder due to the risk:reward of using it. I mean, if you create a formulaic offensive team (and thus reliably loses and wins when you expect it to, such as Rain teams), sure, but most of the time it is not the best method.

Even though stall is getting harder and harder to use, I think it's still the best way to climb the ladder.

 

[spuds4ever]

I personally think it's too easy to break stall in RU. There are just so many powerful things that spit stall in the face with a choice band or specs. Stall can't really do much to CB durant except for qwilfish (but he can even run thunderfang to cover that) or specs sceptile as only flying types or bugs or even the odd fire type can switch in on a leafstorm but so many carry HP rock.

Also, there are some really decent spinners in RU, the january usage stats should be enough to tell you that. But I haven't played many skilled stall players so maybe this is all wrong.

 

[alexwolf]

I personally think it's too easy to break stall in RU. There are just so many powerful things that spit stall in the face with a choice band or specs. Stall can't really do much to CB durant except for qwilfish (but he can even run thunderfang to cover that) or specs sceptile as only flying types or bugs or even the odd fire type can switch in on a leafstorm but so many carry HP rock.

Also, there are some really decent spinners in RU, the january usage stats should be enough to tell you that. But I haven't played many skilled stall players so maybe this is all wrong.

Steelix and Gligar are full stops to CB Durant. Specially Defensive RestTalk Weezing (this thing is good don't laugh) and Roselia are also full stops to Specs Sceptile. Don't get me wrong, i am not staying that stall is easy, but it definitely has some solid walls to hold back the strong attackers of the tier...

 

[Heysup]

Most stall mons just beat those two Pokemon; they aren't really forced out. With Wish it's kind of hard to break a well-built stall team.

 

[spuds4ever]

Maybe you're right. But there just are so many threats in RU (perhaps those two weren't a great example) that stall teams can't really fit in checks to everything.

 

[Heysup]

(I feel like this belongs in another thread) Stall teams, particularly in RU, actually can check everything but that's where you catch them - offense has numerous strategies to exploit stalls inability to fully counter every threat. Whether you do the lure + kill or use a heavy hitting wall-breaker or use set up sweepers with Taunt or whatever, there are always strategies to just overpower stall teams. I'm just saying that in the long run, you're going to have a more steady and easy climb up the ladder with a formulaic stall team.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm having a difficult time checking Sawsbuck, outside of running Cofagrigous. How do you guys deal with that monstrosity? It runs through almost every conceivable check I can think of (Entei is slower & gets stomped by nature power, ferroseed is fodder)

Its really strong.

EDIT: Durant's nice, good call on that one. Galvuntula hates taking DE's so its a check. Gonna try running either of those pokemon on most of my teams. Hate it hate it hate it.

 

[spuds4ever]

Sawsbuck is great but is killed by a lot of things with good speed as sawsbuck can't boost his own. Personally, I use durant, who can switch in on hornleech all day. Galvantula would make a good counter seeing as he out-speeds and OHKOes with bug buzz.