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Metagame NP RU Stage 5: Look What You Made Me Do (Zygarde-10% Unbanned, Aurora Veil Banned)

Discussion in 'RarelyUsed' started by atomicllamas, Sep 4, 2017.

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  1. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas but then what's left of me?
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    3rd Public Test

    [​IMG]

    The council voted to quickban Zygarde-10% and then retest it so as to have a potentially balanced meta game for tournaments, while allowing Zygarde-10% to have a chance at staying RU. As always, if you'd like to see some in depth reasoning as to why this Pokemon is being suspected, there are some paragraphs below written about why Zygarde-10% in particular was chosen. The suspect test will last 10 days and the deadline will be at 11:59 PM EST on the 14th of September, assuming the ladder is up by the end of the night.

    The reqs will be 2800 coil with a B value of 9.0, but you will need to finish reqs within 62 games. Some sample values are below. I will know if you reset your win loss, given its determined by GXE, do not attempt to game the system you will be infracted if I catch you, and I will. A GXE of 77.5 is the required minimum.

    To find out how many matches it'll take for you specifically, take your GXE, and put it into this formula

    =9.0/log2(40*GXE/2800)


    Zygarde 10% Suspect Reasoning (open)
    Zygarde-10% was chosen as a suspect thanks to its excellent offensive typing, high speed stat, and access to Dragon Dance as well as an extremely spammable STAB in Thousand Arrows. Zygarde shares many traits with Flygon, which has already established itself as one of the premier set-up sweepers in the metagame; Zygarde trades some bulk and access to Levitate for a higher Speed Tier and one of the best moves in the game in the aforementioned Thousand Arrows. These traits make Zygarde more potent than Flygon offensively against the majority of teams, making it extremely devasting offensively. Due to its lack of Levitate and access to Thousand Arrows, Gardevoir is also very ineffective as a check, meaning that Zygarde has to deal with one less answer than Flygon does. Zygarde is also free to run Extreme Speed on its DD set since it does not need the coverage Iron Tail provides. It can also utilize a Choice Band set much more effectively than Flygon due to Thousand Arrows and Extreme Speed, both of which are very handy tools for a Choice Banded Pokemon to possess.


    NP Song:



    tagging The Immortal for a ladder (thanks! see list below)

    changes for your reference TI (open)

    Drops:
    Banette-Mega moved from UU to RU
    Abomasnow-Mega moved from UU to RU
    Decidueye moved from UU to RU
    Camerupt-Mega moved from UU to RU
    Nidoqueen moved from UU to RU
    Tsareena moved from UU to RU
    Zygarde-10% moved from UU to RU (should be allowed on the ladder)

    Do not drop Mega Absol or Tornadus those should be BL2

    rises:
    Mantine moved from RU to UU


    psa: do not shit post, it will be deleted and possibly infracted
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
    jdcomix, BPGXMG, Ark and 36 others like this.
  2. avocado

    avocado rising high without faking
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    This is all assuming the cb set.

    Zydog is turning out really underwhelming. First and foremost, its attack stat is absolutely pitiful with only a base 100, but it's saved by a strong stab in Outrage and a very spammable thousand arrows. A lot of things wall this so it's not a problem to stall at all. Chesnaught, Cresselia, Porygon2, Gligar, and Slowbro are biggest examples here. Also, since its bulk is literally nonexistent, most of what walls it can 2HKO back. The most threatening thing Zydog can do is Outrage which does 2HKO a lot of things w/ SR, but clicking Outrage is risky for obvious reasons. Thousand Arrows fails to 2HKO the mons I mentioned though. The biggest problem I found myself having is that its typing overlaps with a lot of other really good mons, specifically Gligar. I feel pressed to run Gligar on a lot of teams and having it alongside Zydog offers no synergy whatsoever, and doesn't allow for much.

    Even offense doesn't seem like it struggles that much (at least not as much as I expected) against it seeing how Salazzle outspeeds and even Sharpedo, probably the frailest mon in the tier, has a fairly large chance of living espeed after SR. Whenever I did use zydog though I mostly found myself using it to revenge kill heavily weakened and faster threats.

    There's just too many things that can take zydog's hits, even with CB, and OHKO it back. I haven't tried out coil or DD but I figure they're probably not worth it.. DD is done better by Flygon and Coil just seems unnecessary, though maybe +1 with LO or a Z-move could allow it to break some shit.



    (why the fuck did the council even vote to ban this thing lmao)
    jdcomix, neomon, Zetasniper and 24 others like this.
  3. tenkai

    tenkai

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    Yeah I really couldn't agree with this more. It's just not overly strong at all and having a beautifully spammable move means little when it's so weak against anything thats not super frail. I was looking through avocados list of bulky things that wall this and I thought 4th slot toxic might help with this, but in practice I always seemed to lose out in that scenario because the huge momentum loss of being locked into toxic outweighs the benefits of actually poisoning something. Even against offense, this thing was disappointing because theres such a multitude of mons that can take at least one thousand arrows, which should be its go to move to click, in which case you're either letting shaymin, pangoro, bewear, or whatever fire off a free move (they can't switch in though), or giving things like kommo-o or gatr free set up. And while you can switch out and come back in to click espeed for the kill, then you've realistically let something die and now you're locked into espeed. It's not a bad matchup at all, given how it can cleanly ohko a nice chunk of offensive mons and its got dangerous late game speed, but combine these issues with the fact that it's still slower than salazzle and swellow and its certainly not overwhelming

    Also I haven't tried DD yet so I'm not sure how that would compare to flygon, trades set up opportunity granted by passable bulk and levitate for a better ground move and more speed, alongside not having to risk iron tail vs gardevoir I guess
    Natural Talent and Sleepless like this.
  4. Ajna

    Ajna his panic like Dora when shots blast
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    we banned it and immediately retested it so that a potentially broken mon wouldn't be allowed in snake, and the 7th round of open. no one knew how the mon would be in this meta so there was no reason to risk it; why is this so difficult for you to understand? from what i've played zydog doesn't seem broken, but there was no reason for us to risk having an unbalanced metagame for these big upcoming tournaments. also, salazzle outspeeding zydog doesn't really matter because salazzle should usually be running hp grass.
  5. MrAldo

    MrAldo (llsshock)
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    Sneaky sneaky

    Anyways, I will not dwell much with the zygarde-10% situation, I stand by my play and if it unbanned it will definitely be a welcome addition to the tier. Lets talk about the other drops cause why not.

    [​IMG]
    A pretty cool drop, good looking mon and could have some really nice potential. SD looks pretty promising since Ghost + Grass is pretty respectable combination, and Spirit Shackle is an interesting attack with notable applications. Trapping some stuff is nice. It could even have potential as a defog user since Mantine left the house, you will probably be missing up with SD. A sample set:

    Decidueye @ Decidium Z
    Ability: Overgrow
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Leaf Blade
    - Spirit Shackle
    - Sucker Punch / Substitute

    It is base 70 so it puts this mon ahead of Jolly Pangoro so that makes running Adamant doable IMO. Honch already screws you up over virtue of typing anyways, but Jolly is an option to Sinister Arrow Raid it behind a sub or something. Sucker Punch is nice to get rid of Pokemon like Salazzle and Swellow after SR damage. I guess it can run grassium Z for umbreon but decidium Z sounds superior otherwise.

    [​IMG]
    Venoqueen is back! Ready to become a top tier Pokemon again and all of that. We already have a nice idea of what Nidoqueen does, but without Mantine the possibility of running some other stuff becomes far bigger.

    Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
    Ability: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Stealth Rock
    - Sludge Wave / Taunt / Toxic Spikes / A bunch of other moves
    - Ice Beam
    - Earth Power

    Without Mantine, running thunderbolt is pretty much unnecessary so it makes Sludge Wave basically the option to go most of the time but not really a mandatory one if you ask me. Nidoqueen is so adaptable I firmly believe Taunt + Stealth Rock could be a solid option, same with double hazards, and even Focus Blast for Snorlax and P2 if you are crazy enough. Top tier Pokemon on its return as expected

    [​IMG]
    Looks like a trash Pokemon that doesnt offers much... ok, Im being too harsh, a Pokemon that just doesnt look notable or good no matter how I see it but Queenly Majesty is certainly a cool ability with hilarious applications. I saw it hard checking an SD Abomasnow so thats nice! If someone can shed some light on this Pokemon and what can it do, thanks in advance. I know spin is looking like a non option with Doublade around

    [​IMG]
    You know, this was bound to be mediocre with mantine around, but seeing it left the house in such a manner there is probably some good use for this meaty camel. Being a Salazzle check is always nice, and its wallbreaking power is certainly there, but stuff like SpDef Cress, P2, Umbreon and mainly Milotic make it tough for the Camel to truly shine. Looks pretty usable tho, more wallbreking fire types are always welcome if you ask me. Especially if they arent weak to Stealth Rock. A set:

    Camerupt-Mega @ Cameruptite
    Ability: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 HP / 168 SpA / 88 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Toxic / Will-O-Wisp
    - Earth Power
    - Fire Blast

    Basically the same spread as last gen. Creep for Slowking, Snorlax and Slowbros, and some Escavalier aiming for the previously mentioned Pokemon. Toxic is the best option for it to catch P2, Bulky Waters and Cress but Will-O-Wisp can screw over Figy Lax so thats fun. HP Ice for Flygon. Basically the same deal as past gen.

    [​IMG]
    And lastly Mega Big Chill Mega Abomasnow! It is back to cause more destruction! One of those balance breakers by excellence, and it basically does that with 2 different sets that have very different counterplay. Ridiculous. This mon is gonna be really good. Perhaps too good but it is too soon to tell. Sets:

    Abomasnow-Mega @ Abomasite
    Ability: Snow Warning
    EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 164 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Ice Shard
    - Swords Dance
    - Wood Hammer
    - Earthquake

    Abomasnow-Mega @ Abomasite
    Ability: Snow Warning
    EVs: 160 Atk / 252 SpA / 96 Spe
    Mild Nature
    - Ice Shard
    - Earthquake
    - Giga Drain
    - Blizzard

    And thats it, lets see how the meta develops, and what happens with the Zydog suspect test. Sorry with what happens with the Zydog situation but with the tourney ongoing, r7 happening on the same day, and no solid perception of what zydog could do, we had to think fast, cause tournaments work like that.

    Cheers!
    esche, Jqded, lolbro and 18 others like this.
  6. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
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    Yo Aldo you missed one!

    [​IMG]
    Now Mega Banette has always been an odd case; it has a unique niche in Prankster Destiny Bond, but previously it barely ever pulled that off due to how Mega & turn-based mechanics worked. Now it has access to Prankster turn 1, but the question remains is whether it is worth using, or worth the opportunity cost of other Megas.

    Well, while the newcomer Megas as well as Mega Glalie are very offensively threatening indeed, what Mega Banette does is function as a sort of 'blanket check' against setup sweepers while having the power to threaten most defensive Pokemon.

    Banette-Mega @ Banettite
    Ability: Frisk
    EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Destiny Bond
    - Shadow Claw
    - Knock Off
    - Taunt / Toxic / Will-O-Wisp / etc.

    I believe the first 3 moves are mandatory: DBond defines Mega Banette's entire niche, Shadow Claw is general reliable damage that efficiently takes down the majority of offensive threats in a couple of hits or so, Knock Off can cripple bulkier Pokemon and help deter their switching in, as well as screwing over Gluttony Snorlax which is a setup sweeper MBanette can't check otherwise. The last moveslot is largely team dependent; Taunt can let MBanette do a bit of stallbreaking, preventing recovery from the likes of Milotic while blocking status from Registeel or Gligar. Toxic improves MBanette's matchup against bulkier mons in general. Personally I'm of the belief that Wisp is a tad superficial on Mega Banette since it doesn't usually save it from being KOed (in which case Destiny Bond would be superior), but it can catch switch-ins, particularly bulky tanks like Rhyperior, Gigalith, or Escavalier, so it still has some merit. Shit, you could even consider some trapping options on the last slot, such as Pursuit to help guarantee some damage on fleeing offensive mons, especially frailer ones like Salazzle, Swellow, Gardevoir, and Meloetta, or even Infestation to force the opponent to commit to their choice (stay in and get trapped in the DBond lock, or switch and be unable to pull a double switch afterward).

    Mega Banette is by no means a stellar Pokemon (Umbreon is the bane of this mon's existence) and its presence in the meta is largely unexplored atm (currently the most reasonable EV investment I can come up with enough Speed for Cresselia, max Atk, & rest in HP, though I feel it can be better optimized somehow), but I thought it would be a Pokemon worth discussing.
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2017
  7. Natural Talent

    Natural Talent Don't die trying to live..
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    After getting reqs to me Zygarde 10% is far from broken. It's underwhelming on most teams as you'd just prefer flygon unless you're Choice Band. Nonetheless it's still a cool mon with a good speed tier and average move pool.

    A few mons i'm really liking right now are Nidoqueen, Decidueye and Mega Abomasnow though.

    Decidueye (open)

    Decidueye @ Grassium Z / Decidium Z
    Ability: Overgrow
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
    - Leaf Blade
    - Spirit Shackle
    - Swords Dance
    - Substitute / Sucker Punch

    Decidueye traps Steels such as Registeel for Sharpedo, the most threatening pokemon in RU right now in my opinion.

    I prefer Grassium Z over Decidium Z because of overgrowth and how i've been seeing more fattish teams. Overgrowth Bloom Doom is amazingly Powerful...

    252+ Atk Decidueye Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 307-363 (95.6 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Overgrow Decidueye Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 462-544 (143.9 - 169.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Overgrow Decidueye Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 378-445 (95.9 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Overgrow Decidueye Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 288-339 (79.1 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252+ Atk Decidueye Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 255-301 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252+ Atk Overgrow Decidueye Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 382-450 (114.3 - 134.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Sucker Punch is cool to hit pokemon such ass Zygarde Gardevoir and other things that try to revenge kill it.

    +2 252+ Atk Decidueye Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gardevoir: 207-244 (74.7 - 88%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
    +2 252+ Atk Decidueye Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zygarde-10%: 193-228 (77.5 - 91.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes


    Nidoqueen (open)

    Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
    Ability: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Earth Power
    - Sludge Wave
    - Stealth Rock / Taunt / Toxic Spikes
    - Ice Beam / Fire Blast / Focus Blast / Thunderbolt / Taunt

    The hit what you want at your leisure pokemon.

    This pokemon's movepool is so great, it has ice beam for pokemon like gligar and flygon, fire blast for escavalier and bronzong, Focus Blast.. hold that Umbreon, and even taunt.

    A team isn't hurt by adding a Nidoqueen to it because it's such a good mon that can fit different roles.


    Mega Abomasnow (open)

    Abomasnow-Mega @ Abomasite
    Ability: Soundproof
    EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 164 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Wood Hammer
    - Swords Dance
    - Ice Shard
    - Earthquake
    or

    Abomasnow-Mega @ Abomasite
    Ability: Soundproof
    EVs: 8 HP / 84 Atk / 252 SpA / 164 Spe
    Mild Nature
    - Blizzard
    - Wood Hammer / Giga Drain
    - Ice Shard
    - Earthquake / Hidden Power Fire

    Only safe switch in to Abomasnow that i've seen is Bronzong and Doublade to an extent. Swords Dance Variants pack a hell of a punch Hitting everything hard. Hail makes Blizzard 100% accurate while negates leftovers recovery which really is a help.

    SD Calcs
    +2 252+ Atk Abomasnow-Mega Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bronzong: 191-225 (56.5 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, hail damage, and Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Abomasnow-Mega Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Milotic: 452-534 (114.7 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Abomasnow-Mega Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 201-237 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, hail damage, and Leftovers recovery
    +2 252+ Atk Abomasnow-Mega Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gardevoir: 205-243 (74 - 87.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
    +2 252+ Atk Abomasnow-Mega Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 326-386 (101.5 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Abomasnow-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 340-400 (93.4 - 109.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252+ Atk Abomasnow-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 228-270 (70.8 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and hail damage

    Mixed Calcs
    252+ SpA Abomasnow-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 146-172 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and hail damage
    252+ SpA Abomasnow-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Escavalier: 240-284 (69.7 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Abomasnow-Mega Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 458-540 (142.6 - 168.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    84 Atk Abomasnow-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 138-164 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, hail damage, and Leftovers recovery
    84 Atk Abomasnow-Mega Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, hail damage, and Leftovers recovery
    84 Atk Abomasnow-Mega Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Milotic: 362-428 (91.8 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Abomasnow-Mega Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Milotic: 186-222 (47.2 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, hail damage, and Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Abomasnow-Mega Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 192-226 (55.8 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and hail damage
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  8. Miyami~~

    Miyami~~

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    Agreeing with everyone else that Zydog certainly isn't broken, I'd actually love to have it in the tier and it's around the same level as Flygon, which definitely isn't broken. Also don't use DD Zydog since Flygon has the bulk to pull off DD much better.
    I'm going to interject here briefly. I sorta agree with you on Tsareena not being great, it's more along the lines of passable. I think its best set is a Scarf set, like this:

    Tsareena (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Queenly Majesty
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Trop Kick
    - High Jump Kick
    - U-turn
    - Play Rough

    With this, Tsareena hits (assuming I've done my math right) 401 Speed, a fairly respectable speed tier letting it revenge several mons well, such as Kommo-o, Zoroark, and Swellow. It also revenges Linoone (and can even switch in if you're gutsy enough) because Queenly Majesty stops Espeed and can even sorta take on Mega Abomasnow if you double into it, since it's faster and doesn't die in one hit. Trop Kick in general ensures you're never completely useless if your opponent has to switch in a physical attacker, and a fairly fast U-Turn is solid for momentum. Not great but not useless, Queenly Majesty is very interesting as an ability.

    I agree with you on spin being mostly useless, but it isn't unusable as Doublade doesn't like Trop Kick, just... not good. Here's what a spin set should look like:

    Tsareena (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Queenly Majesty
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Trop Kick
    - High Jump Kick
    - U-turn
    - Rapid Spin

    Pretty similar idea here, but trades speed for spinning and not locking yourself into one move. Doublade screws it over immensely, but at least Trop Kick can annoy it a bit before switching out. It's one of the worst spinners we have that isn't completely unviable but Trop Kick and Queenly Majesty are both cool.

    And that's it for my piece on Tsareena. I don't think it's completely useless, but I don't think it's great. Scarf has some merits, and maybe Z-Splash could work? Haven't tested it yet.

    And lastly, I agree on Zydog not being broken, but there is something currently broken in the tier...

    [​IMG]

    This thing. I have never seen anything constrain any sort of offensive team as much as Shark does, and Shark does it to a completely unacceptable level. What really sets Sharpedo apart from, say, Salazzle or Zydog to the point of actually being broken is Speed Boost. Essentially, Speed boost makes Sharpedo impossible to revenge kill after a few boosts, unless you're Comfey. After two speed boosts it outspeeds every viable scarfer in the tier, and with switchins to it as limited as they were before, it's a menace. With Hazard removal being awful this generation (and now even worse with the removal of Mantine), once Spikes go down it makes shark even more threatening, as direct switching into Shark is not always possible, since unless you're Comfey or Special Toxicroak, which isn't a good set, you can't hit it before it hits you. You can't even remove the hazards since Sharpedo beats every single hazard remover in the tier with just one set except maybe Cryogonal (And they all lose to Physical Shark + Ice Beam, another valid option). This was further compounded by the tier changes, which, including the loss of one of Sharpedo's better checks in Mantine, unleashed a whole sea of Pokémon that do nothing to help vs Shark - in fact, Shark beats every single one of them except Aboma and Banette if it chooses to kill itself. The new metagame is more offensive, thanks to the introduction of Nidoqueen and several other new drops, which further makes Shark even more threatening. It's beaten by Umbreon, Regi, and P2, but I think those are the only things that actually wall it for sure, as Water/Dark/Psychic or Ice hitting from the physical or special side with no way to tell leaves barely any breathing room, and unless you're running one of the very few answers to Shark (And vs offence this is a garauntee unless you have Comfey), if Shark gets a kill it's going to get several nearly every time. It's just too much for the tier to handle, and needs to be banned.

    Also this NP song is borderline ear rape
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  9. Yoshizilla315

    Yoshizilla315

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    I don't understand why this Pokemon is being suspect tested. I don't play RU that often and I know this thing is very underwhelming. Firstly, the council believed that this fast Choice Band user would wreak havoc on the tier, and, if played right, it can. But, RU also has this Pokemon called Flygon which can set up a Dragon Dance, which makes it faster than Zygarde as well as giving it the same power. Flygon not having to run Choice Band is also nice, as it can switch between Dragon Claw and Earthquake, which prevents fairies and steels for coming in free on Flygon. Zygarde on the other hand is forced to lock itself into a move, although Thousand Arrows spam even 2HKOs Florges, though Flygon does the same once more of the time after a Dragon Dance.

    tldr; don't ban Zygarde, it's underwhelming, and rivaled by Flygon.

    Edit: also by the way yes I know it was banned for tournaments but still it's kind of stupid to say "we didn't know the potential" when we have a Pokemon with the same typing + better bulk.
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
    TheTraininator likes this.
  10. phantom

    phantom
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
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    Zygarde is pretty good overall but it lacks the raw power and bulk to be considered broken. It loses a lot of one-on-one matchups against common offensive staples like Feraligatr, Bewear, and even Doublade, and it has enough checks on offensive teams like Shaymin and Mega Abomasnow. That's not to mention the stupid amount of defensive checks/counters like Gligar, Porygon, Cresselia and the fact that it can't switch in on anything. Also, a misconception seems to be that Zygarde can use DD sets, which "makes it a better Flygon" when that isn't close to being true. The only difference between the two that matters is bulk and ability, which is what lets Flygon set up on plenty of Gligar variants, whereas Zygarde gets 2HKOed and can't set up on anything. The speed is irrelevant since they'll outspeed the same threats after a boost and its Extreme Speed is so weak that it can't even kill a Honchkrow at +1 after Stealth Rock. Flygon also can pick off levitating targets with its Z move and not lock into Outrage, so Thousand Arrows isn't as huge of an advantage for its DD set as one would think.

    That said, kinda wish we didn't waste time on this suspect since Zygarde is nowhere close to broken, and it feels like a lost opportunity when things that are actually broken (sharpedo) and make the tier awful (aurora veil) could have been dealt with in the time this suspect took place or at least the relevant suspects wouldn't be delayed because of this one. Oh well. I won't get into it too much, but I didn't think the ban reasoning was sufficient since it was pretty clear to see that Zygarde had one viable set that was countered and beaten by plenty of common staples, and there are two other drops that are far more consequential than Zygarde that could have been banned instead if there was a concern over the quality of tours wrt the tier shifts (not that I would agree with QBing anything other than Mega Absol, but you know).
    lolbro, KoldKappuccino, Lixx and 13 others like this.
  11. Lordemort

    Lordemort

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    What's everybody's thoughts on hail?

    Now with Mega Abomasnow dropping (and assuming it will stay) I believe Hail will be a considerable threat. With Cryogonal in the tier and a pokemon with snow warning, you'll be able to set up aurora veil for 8 (eight) turns, giving the opportunity of setup mons like Flygon, Kommo-o etc to do their job much easier. Not to mention pokemon such as A-Sandslash that will greatly benefit from hail aswell.
  12. Swaggy-G

    Swaggy-G

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    Then Aurora Veil would be the problem, not hail.
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  13. Cheryl.

    Cheryl. Breh
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    Aurora Veil was already a considerably decent playstyle before Mega Aboma dropped, using Aurorus + A-Slash/Cryogonal/Froslass to set up Veil to help their teammates to just set up and sweep so much easier, as you've said. I have tried Mega Aboma Veil (with Queen as the Rocker), and it's not bad, M-Aboma adds a really nice way to pressure defensive builds while also supplying the Hail for the Veil user, although it's a bit less easy to use since you cant just lead with Auro, set up Rocks, etc. but it's definitely a nice option that adds to the growing versatility that Veil already has, which is arguably what makes it so threatening right now, since you can use a different sweeper or Veil user to patch up some of the usual weaknesses to other Veil builds, further skewing the matchup into your favor.
  14. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas but then what's left of me?
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    Uhh, I miscalculated something for this test (and the last test I guess, sorry if this impacted you) but you actually have 62 games to get there. I've edited the OP to reflect this, unfortunately I can't give an extension, but if you were close and at 61 you have 30 minutes to get in one last play, again sorry for any inconvenience.
  15. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas but then what's left of me?
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    Double post but voting thread is up.

    Additionally, there has been a lot of interest expressed (on the forums, on discord and on PS!) in something being done about Aurora Veil, the council will be voting on whether or not to allow Aurora Veil in the tier on Sunday, we would like to allow people the chance to express their opinion on Aurora Veil in the RU Tier in that time. So feel free to discuss the merits of Aurora Veil as well as ways you have come up with to defeat these teams. Feel free to continue discussing Zygarde-10% and any other aspect of the new meta in the mean time.
  16. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- A Legend Fades Away...
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    jdcomix, Shadestep, wishes and 9 others like this.
  17. MrAldo

    MrAldo (llsshock)
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    Holy shit, that was fast!

    Id really like to hear what people think about Aurora Veil. I firmly believe that it is a really unhealthy element in the metagame, it was easier to maneuver around it when there was just 1 version that was being spammed all over the place (the OG one with linoone, gatr, espeon, fighting type + veil combo) but then Mega Abomasnow dropped, people discovered Cryogonal variants and it is just becoming too much to handle if you ask me, now that it has more options for the hail setter and veil setter...

    Can cheese through many matchups, make setup sweepers far more overwhelming and reduce counterplay (you basically have a haze user or you literally can lose the game at any moment), and is just extremely difficult to prepare for when you have to take into account so many things at once... it should go imo.

    But discuss, lets see what you guys think!
  18. BPGXMG

    BPGXMG

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    Yeah, MrAldo is right, AV is pretty unhealthy in this meta. Hail is much easier to set up now with Abomasnow-Mega in the tier, which also benefits immensely from AV. There are multiple variants - Cryrogonal for truly disgusting bulk, Froslass for speed and I've even seen spikes, Sandslash-Alola for even better speed - all of which are just incredible rn. Counterplay is limited to Defog, which isn't in the best state in this meta. In addition, most Defoggers are weak to Ice. Ban pls

    In addition, I'd like to bring up Sharpedo again, because this is becoming more and more of an issue. Offensive checks are nowhere to be found, with Comfey falling off rather badly and most other priority not hitting it effectively. It's extraordinarily fast, can go physical or special to break through its checks, and is just insanely powerful with Spikes up (easy to keep up in this meta, hazard control is really limited rn). This definitely deserves a suspect at the very least.
  19. Sir Isaac Mewton

    Sir Isaac Mewton

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    All the other tiers are taking their measures, I don't see why RU shouldn't test veil it at the very least. That said, I don't think it's that broken. It's counterplay is similar to sun teams but you deffo get more pressure and one mistake can cost the whole game. Again, I'd like to see it tested soon.

    Sharpedo is interesting, as I feel many offense matchups end up being who gets sharpedo in first to win, but I kind of like the element of planning it brings. It isn't that good against many matchups though, as most sets are walled by umby & regi or even milo or florges. It's amazing with hazards up but then again many things are, I don't think it should be the next thing to be tested.
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  20. Fanyfan

    Fanyfan formerly Fannyfan

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    Well, this changes everything. Honestly, I think this will improve the tier. It was probably going to be banned anyway. Also rip Cryogonal. That is all.
  21. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Breaking hearts since '09
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  22. avocado

    avocado rising high without faking
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    Cryogonal still has a niche for being a spinner that checks nidoqueen and a lure to doublade/regi with knock off, so it's not exactly "rip" cuz that was his original niche all along until aveil 'came along' or caught up in the meta.

    As for aurora veil itself, not stacking with screens is good but it still needs to go honestly. There's a lot of things that make the move broken and its not just stacking with screens. Aurorus is as good a suicide lead as you can get nowadays, and having SR and hail in one go is pretty good, not to mention you can't setup on it as safely cuz of its access to encore. Then there's Sandslash-A, that outspeeds pretty much everything in hail and sets up safely. Aveil in general is a playstyle that doesn't require much thought, or much skill teambuilding, because there are literally 4 or 5 staple pokemon that you should run, and they're aurorus/sandslash-a/pangoro/espeon/linoone. You lead aurorus, set up SR, switch to sandslash-a or sack it, set up screens, set up, and then you can just win from there. There's Specs Espeon to force registeel out and trick it, as well as prevent defog from removing screens (but it still removes hazards), and then there's belly drum linoone in case it all goes to shit, which is mostly guaranteed to live a hit behind screens and with full hp investment. Yes, it loses to stall a lot of the time, but that doesn't make it healthy imo. Lots of Pokemon still lose to a playstyle but are also inherently broken for other reasons (see sharpedo).

    Cryogonal was nice because if you could fit in a couple more turns you get double the protection and literally make your sweepers unstoppable, but Sandslash-A isn't a bad setter of the move at all.

    As for Sharpedo yeah that shit has to go for reasons a lot of people already covered before. Lack of priority in the tier outside of like 2 pokemon makes this a problem, and it single-handedly makes a lot of offense builds obsolete. The main problem it has imo is that it bypasses scarf users with 2 boosts, which are really easy to get. It's extremely good and too excellent at doing its job and just in general a very annoying pokemon for any team that doesn't run like 5 walls or 2 checks. Zydog's introduction makes it slightly more manageable because banded has a high chance of killing with espeed after 1 round of LO or SR (still not 100%), but that's barely good enough.
  23. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas but then what's left of me?
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    The Council has voted to ban the move Aurora Veil in a 8-2 vote.

    votes (open)

    ban - ajna, arifeen, atomicllamas, col49, DTC, Kushalos, MrAldo, phantom
    do not ban - -Tsunami-, FlamingVictini


    Reasoning (open)

    Much like full baton pass, Aurora Veil teams tend to either win or lose at team preview. There are a very limited number of viable pokemon in the RU tier capable of removing Aurora Veil, most of which must run Brick Break over superior Fighting STAB / coverage to do so, and while defog removes on the opposing side, this can be blocked by Espeon or simply via offensive pressure, as Moltres is the only defogger capable of removing Aurora Veil against most of the pokemon found on veil teams. Psychic Fangs is blocked by Pangoro, a veil staple and also has a very limited distribution. One of the things smogon aims for in tiering is a competitive meta game. While its true that very often one team will have an advantage over the other in team preview, it is the fact that Aurora Veil teams win or lose the vast majority of games at team preview by following a very formulaic plan, that makes Aurora Veil an issue in the RU metagame.


    if you could update this on the ladder I would appreciate that greatly The Immortal, thanks!
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
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  24. Cheryl.

    Cheryl. Breh
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    Shoutouts to Gatorboy for helping us ban an entire move

    But yeah this was definitely a good choice by the council, Veil was very annoying to face as it had so many options to skewer the matchups towards the player using Veil, even with Triple Screens being obsolete. This should help the tier move forward and become more healthy, even if there is some really unhealthy elements still in the tier, mainly Sharpedo.
    Miyami~~, Darksafadao, eht and 14 others like this.
  25. MaahirMomtaz12

    MaahirMomtaz12

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    Ice-types finally got a good buff and now Smogon is banning the buff :(
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