Metagame NP: RU Stage 6: Heavy Metal and Reflective (ALL 3 SUSPECTS BANNED, DISCUSSING POST BANS META NOW)

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Molk

Godlike Usmash
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Hey guys! It's been quite a while, hasn't it? RU hasn't had a suspect test in a pretty long time actually, but we're finally starting to get back into the swing of things :]! (Sharpedonite had a planned test at the start of this month, but it ended up moving up by usage).

So, what are we suspecting you ask? Well, i asked around practically everywhere (RU Council, RU Room Staff, RU Irc, etc) to get some opinions on what was potentially suspect worthy, and three Pokemon in particular were brought up quite a bit: Dragalge, Mega Pidgeot, and RU's newest addition, the legendary Contrary Serperior (for the record there's actually a pokemon here i wanted to wait on, but literally everyone else wanted a test on it asap so i gave in and went through w/ it). There's a fourth Pokemon that was brought up, but because i don't think four suspects at once is a good idea and because that fourth Pokemon is p. controversial, i think it'd be better if it was tested alone if at all. If you'd like to see some more in-depth reasoning on why these three Pokemon were chosen as suspects, i'd advise you to read the paragraphs below. Whether you believe those traits are enough to warrant a ban are up to you, but even if you disagree at least you'll understand the thoughts behind it.

Just like the last suspect tests, the reqs will be 2400 coil with a B value of 20.0 (unless one of you guys that can see the ppad thinks they should be changed, they are fine imo), and the suspect test will end/voting will begin exactly two weeks after the date this post was made. Some sample values are below.

Code:
GXE N
100 28
90 35
85 40
80 49
75 63
70 90
65 174
To find out how many matches it'll take for you specifically, take your GXE, and put it into this formula

N=20.0/log2(40*GXE/2400)

With the release of Adaptability, Dragalge has become the tiers premier wallbreaker with its powerful STAB moves. On top of its power, Dragalge is also pretty bulky for an offensive Pokemon, and has extremely good defensive typing, giving it countless opportunities to easily switch in and fire off its ridiculously powerful STAB moves with impunity, often getting a free KO in the process. Because of its immense power, Dragalge has a *very* limited number of switch-ins, limited to the most Specially Bulky of Steel-type Pokemon in the tier, and all of them barring Bronzong fear switching into a common coverage move or simply don't have the bulk to take repeated hits over the course of the game, which makes Dragalge quite centralizing in the current metagame. To put just how hard Dragalge hits into perspective, Dragalge's Draco Meteor is *significantly* more powerful than Exploud's Boomburst on its initial use, and Sludge Bomb is almost as powerful.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 295-348 (73 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 382-450 (94.5 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


ORAS gave Pidgeot a new Mega Evolution, with 135 base Special Attack and access to a 100% accurate 110 BP Flying-type STAB move. Access to Heat Wave allows Mega Pidgeot to hit Steel-types on the switch in, and U-turn allows it to pivot out of other counters such as Eelektross and Rhyperior on the switch-in quite easily. Access to Roost and Work Up allow Pidgeot to take advantage of more passive counters such as Bronzong, SpD Golbat, and Registeel, (Refresh is also an option to take advantage of these Pokemon). Mega Pidgeot is very difficult for offensive teams to deal with as its high 121 base speed outspeeds almost all non scarf Pokemon in the tier (Jolteon and Mega Sceptile (post Mega Evolution) are the lone exceptions). This allows Mega Pidgeot to clean up with very little support against offensive teams.



With the release of contrary, Serperior gained a 130 BP STAB boosted Nasty Plot making it an extremely potent threat in spite of its base 75 SpA. Its really great base speed of 113, combined with its decent coverage (Grass + Dragon + Fire hits everything at least neutrally) allow Serperior to become a potent set up sweeper. While there are some decent defensive responses to Serperior, and quite a few things that can revenge kill it (less than you'd think thanks to its solid bulk for an offensive Pokemon), Serperior's free fourth moveslot allows it to cripple some would be counters and checks. Substitute+Leech Seedallows Serp to avoid status moves from the likes of Registeel and Bronzong while wearing them down with repeated chip damage in the process, Knock Off can wear down the opponents counters easily letting Serp sweep late game (Golbat, Bronzong) and Glare can be used to punish would be revenge killers (Scarf Moltres). Serperior does have a pretty solid counter in SpD Golbat, as well as a myriad of checks, but the ease with which it can sweep makes Serperior a suspect worthy threat.



Last but not least, below you'll see some sample sets of the Pokemon in question, so you guys know exactly what you're dealing with during the test :].

Dragalge @ Choice Specs / Draco Plate
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Sludge Bomb
- Dragon Pulse / Hidden Power Fire / Toxic Spikes
- Focus Blast / Hidden Power Fire


Serperior @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Substitute / Giga Drain
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Hidden Power [Rock] / Dragon Pulse


Pidgeot @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Tangled Feet
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- U-turn / Hidden Power Grass / Work Up
- Roost / Hidden Power Grass

Pidgeot @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Tangled Feet
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Work Up
- Substitute / Refresh
- Roost


NP song: Heavy Metal and Reflective (suggested by Spirit)


Reasoning: I don't need a reason. I'm the best bitch in the rap game. You need Steel-types to beat Dragalge? Idk figure it out yourself.
 
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These are definitely amongst the tier's top threats. Most teams have almost nothing for Dragalge aside from Zonger, Doublade, Cobalion or Escav, but both don't have reliable recovery. However, I think that just because of how fast and powerful offense is (Dragalge's typing is nice, but stuff like Moltres, Mega Sceptile, PANDA, M-Pidgeot and so forth can do massive damage to it), Dragalge probably won't be deemed broken. Most stall teams can handle its coverage with bulky Pokemon like Bronzong anyway, so I think the main trouble will be with balance teams that can't apply enough pressure to OHKO/2HKO Drag and get demolished by a Specs Draco Meteor.

Mega Pidgeot imo definitely isn't broken, it has nice power and a great Speed tier, as well as variety in sets, but it just doesn't hit hard enough to threaten everything right off the bat. The Work Up set is threatening but a lot of shit like Rhyperior, AV Slowking, Eelektross, SD Doublade etc. can deal with it to a certain extent. Even for teams that can't, a Volt Switch/U-turn into a Choice Scarf user after some residual damage is quite sufficient to KO it. EDIT-I've revised my thoughts about bird jesus, i've elaborated in a later post

Contrary Serp is what I'm hyped about the most, because every time it comes in could be the time it sweeps. It can set up by revenge killing a mon and doing solid damage even to Pokemon that resist its attacks. The very fear of a Contrary Leaf Storm forces so many switches that Serperior can also use other neat moves such as Knock Off, Dual screens, SubSeed etc. The most popular set will probably be Leaf Storm/HP Fire or Rock/Dragon Pulse/filler. I'm gonna play with/against it and form more opinions on this thing.

EDIT: meh, doublade can switch in I guess..

EDIT- Ok so the ladder has basically become m-pidgeot spam so I'll definitely say it's more threatening than I thought. It's relatively decently bulky and not overly susceptible to priority and the confusion rate of Hurricane (in an ideal situation, this would not be considered but still) always leaves some uncertainty while dealing with it.
 
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leaving some beginning thoughts, its 11pm on a school night and im on a tablet so sue me

I feel that right now Dragalge is pretty unhealthy in the tier. Its solid bulk in tandem with a solid defensive typing give it plenty of switch in opportunities and the power of Adaptability Draco Meteors and Sludge Bomb make it a top tier threat. It's amazing against every playstyle due to these factors. However, I feel that the polarizing effect it has is not good for the metagame. Throwing the fact that it has a whopping one, not completely niche counter(which is pursuit trappable) and lacks enough viable checks out of the window for a moment, Pokemon that give Dragalge a free switch in might as well be a liability, which include a bunch of faces of stall, such as Alomomola, Amoonguss, and Aromatisse, as well as many Electric-, Water-, and Grass-types. Its a large burden in teambuilding and does incredibly well on the battlefield, to the point where I think it should be banned.

Mega Bird definitely isn't broken, obvious bias aside. It's a solid balance between Choice Scarf and Life Orb Moltres, sure, but I feel it has enough viable checks on offense and stall to keep it balanced in the metagame. The Work Up set is definitely threatening but Pokemon such as Rhyperior, AV Slowking, and some steels are able to handle it and are mons that have a purpose outside of beating Bird, and it forfeits a lot of its potential vs. offense if using a weaker spread. The standard offensive set doesn't have enough power to break some walls, which also have purposes outside of beating Bird, and is outsped by every viable scarfer as well. I would currently vote Do Not Ban.

I don't have enough of an opinion on Serperior, would abstain for now
 
I'm on the fence with Dragalge. On one hand, it has some pretty good check in the metagame. Dragalge struggles to 2HKO Registeel with Specs Focus Blast, and that's assuming it doesn't miss. Bronzong is a great check that offers a resistance to Draco Meteor and an immunity to Sludge Bomb, and other viable (albeit niche) checks include Ferroseed, SpD Roselia, SpD Jellicent, and SpD Gastrodon...latter three survive two consecutive Draco Meteors and can replenish health with Recover. So stall can find some answers to this thing that are not deadweight otherwise, and offense will probably lose a member to a Draco Meteor but should easily get two strong hits on it before it can launch a second attack. Dragalge does extremely well vs balance though, since these teams will almost never run more than one dedicated check to it and Dragalge finds far more switchin opportunities vs. balance than offense. If you are using Bronzong or Jellicent as your check and face off vs. a Pursuit Drapion or Houndoom...

Dragalge isn't completely broken in RU IMO, just really really good. I'll try out the Toxic Spikes set again at some point before deciding whether its broken or not. Also @ the guy who said Doublade can check Dragalge...

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 168-198 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Because Dragalge will likely outspeed Doublade & it has no reliable recovery, I would avoid switching Doublade in unless my hand was forced. :p

Unlike the above users, I actually feel Mega Pidgeot is very much broken. 135 Special Attack and 121 Speed is seriously good, and unlike Dragalge, Pidgeot gets U-Turn. This means some of its otherwise reliable checks (like Registeel and weakened Rhyperior) can be killed off or severely weakened by Dugtrio. The same applies to Assault Vest Slowking and Pursuit users. Heat Wave is a great coverage option alongside Hurricane to smack Doublade and to a lesser extent Bronzong. 100% accurate Hurricanes + U-Turn + hazards do an excellent job of wearing down its own checks all by itself, and against defensive teams with multiple checks, it has Roost to stay alive for as long as possible. Also, Hurricane's confusion rate is uncompetitive. The solid power alongside its great Speed and movepool makes Mega Pidgeot a little too strong for RU IMO. It's so easily supported too, because stuff like Pursuot Drapion already has good offense and defensive synergy with it ;_;.

I need to do some playing around with Serperior, but that thing looks ridiculous. It can be revenge killed by certain Scarf users (Hi Moltres), but its Speed in conjunction with solid bulk and Leaf Storm's spammable nature give it ample opportunities to set up. I probably wouldn't use Leftovers on it though, because the coverage moves deal disappointing power otherwise. For example, Life Orb Serperior can 2HKO specially defensive Bronzong ~50% of the time after SR damage with Hidden Power Fire, whereas Leftovers Serperior barely 3HKOes. Life Orb recoil can be healed by Giga Drain (yes, Serp can fit Giga Drain and Leaf Storm on the same set IMO), so I feel it's a viable item. A +2 Life Orb Dragon Pulse can also OHKO Dragalge after Stealth Rock, something Serperior cannot do otherwise. I wouldn't use Choice Specs though, as grass STAB isn't that spammable - even for a mon with Contrary and Leaf Storm! Serperior cannot beat everything with its subpar coverage options, as birds can handle Serp lacking HP Rock and steels like Cobalion and Zong can check Serp lacking HP Fire. However, your opponent has no way to know what Hidden Power you are running and because Serp can set up so easily, it's a guessing game that can cost you the match if you send the wrong "check" in. Oh, did I mention this thing as the same Speed stat as Raikou and Sneasel? I'll playtest with this thing but Contrary Leaf Storm on a Pokemon with traits to abuse it with seems too strong for RU at first glance.

agreeing this was an excellent song choice btw
 

Empress

Took a piss on my nutsack and called it Jack Black
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Good choices. Apologies if what I'm about to say has already been said, but I need a place to get my thoughts down.

Dragalge
I knew Adaptability would be ridiculous on Dragalge the first day it was announced. It can break several bulky walls that it can hit neutrally with its STAB attacks.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Cresselia: 194-230 (43.6 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 104 HP / 156 SpD Alomomola: 544-642 (109.4 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 214-252 (57.2 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Obviously Cresselia is faster, and 2HKOes Dragalge with Psyshock, but that's 1v1- she won't enjoy switching into a Specs Sludge Bomb.

It even has the coverage to beat most Steel-types.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 192-226 (52.7 - 62%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Ok, not the best answer to Registeel, but at least Dragalge can do something to it.)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Hidden Power Fire vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 208-246 (66.6 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Why waste a Draco Meteor on Doublade?)


Despite Dragalge's bulk and defensive typing, it has some definite offensive checks in the RU metagame.
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 258-306 (77.2 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(As most Dugtrio run Sash, Dragalge won't OHKO it with Draco Meteor.)
252+ Atk Druddigon Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 296-350 (88.6 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
(Do you really want to risk that 31% chance of losing Dragalge right then and there? Don't forget Druddigon is just slightly faster.)

252+ SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 264-312 (79 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And…
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 162-192 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (78.5% chance to 2HKO after poison damage)
So, here's a wall that Dragalge cannot break reliably.

And of course, the ubiquitous Bronzong is Dragalge's best defensive counter. Not gonna rehash that.


Thoughts on Bird Jesus and Serperior coming soon.
 

Mr.378

The Iron Man of Ubers
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Seems like an interesting test. I've been somewhat following the meta for a while now and I definitely agree that all three of these pokemon at least deserve a look at. More specifically:
  • Dragalage is a very powerful wallbreaker and offensive force. It has a great special attack and offensive typing paired with the powerful adaptility which allows it to hit most of the metagame very hard. There are switch ins and counters, namely bulky steels, but those are pretty limited and hard to fit onto a lot teams. It is very hard to deal with unless you are using a bulky or stall team. By that i am lead to believe it is too much for the tier.
  • Mega Pidgeot is in a few ways similar to Dragalage except instead of ray power it has great speed. This allows it to outspeed a good majority of the tier and hit them with a STABed hurricane. It does have a few more switch ins then Dragalage because of this focus, but it also has both U-turn and potentially roost to weaken and outlive its counters. I am more on the fence with this one then Dragalage but it too does seem a bit out of hand.
  • Serperior just seems absurd. It has a spamable, easy to use move that both hits hard and boosts it special attack to higher levels allowing it to use it even more. It also has a great speed tier and acceptable bulk, limiting it's checks and revenge killers. Once it gets a boost in it has so much momentum in it's favor that unless you have one of it's limited revenge killers it can simply snowball the game in its favor. This kind of centralization definitely isn't good for the tier and it should go.
These are just some preliminary thoughts on the current suspect ticket. I will definitely play test with these some more to get some better thoughts and perspective on them and I'll give thoughts when I do.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
My thoughts about Dragalge. Dragalge is a pretty interesting case as it is by far one of the most solid and reliable wallbreakers in RU. Dragalge performs well against every playstyle as it has the bulk (especially special bulk) to live an attack and kill something. The main switchins for Dragalge (Registeel, Bronzong, Escavalier) can always switch in and often win at 100%, but the lack of recovery from these counters makes it easy for Dragalge to come in another time and get the kill. The Specs set can slice through every team and when paired up with Wish support you'll have a very hard time dealing with it. The Specs set hits very hard but we shouldn't forget the Draco Plate set, as it lures in things like Slurpuff as a revenge killer and kill it with a Sludge Wave (even at -2) At the moment I think banning Dragalge will be very good for the metagame.

Pidgeot's 135 SpA combined with a 110 BP STAB attack without drawbacks is very hard to switch into. The biggest issue I have with Mega Pidgeot is that it has access to U-Turn, which makes checks and counters like Slowking and Rhyperior very unreliable as counters (assuming Pidgeot doesn't run HP Grass). In my opinion voltturn is great because their are many good volt switchers and u-turners and Pidgeot really helps these teams because it defeats pokemon that are annoying for voltturn (Mega Sceptile, Gligar) so you can keep the momentum. I don't think Pidgeot is broken at the moment and I think it should stay in RU

Not enough experience playing with and against Serperior so leaving this open for now
 
My opinions on dragalge: dragalge as the bravest bird said is a really unhealthy mon in the ru metagame. Unlike other wallbreakers like hitmonlee emboar exploud it is immune to toxic which makes wearing it down tough vs stall. Also due to it's typing it can find a opprotunity to come in unlike the aforementioned mons. Also is defensive checks and counters are limited to bronzong and registeel among other bulky steels which are really easy to wear down as none af recovery outside leftovers and escavalier needs assaulf vest to even check it without taking too much. So my vote on dragalge's fate? Ban

Mega pigeot:
mega pigeot is a threat many teams should take into account. But unlike dragalge mega pigeot's defensive checks aren't as limited as dragalge's and it's defensive check like rhyperior assault vest eelektross assault vest slowking jolteon
are easier to fit on offense and all of them bar jolteon work good on stall.Mega pigeot's 135 special attack isn't as high as it looks due to not being able to hold life orb and most special walls easily stomach it's hits bar the work up set which bulky steels eel rhyperior heliolisk jolteon all beat if it didn't boost too much. Do not ban

Serperior

As stated earlier serperior's access to a stab move with base 130 power that acts as a free nasty plot alongside decent coverage 113 speed make it very broken. The main revenge killers to it are scarftres pigeot if already mega evolved sneasel scarfed braviary are all stealth rock weak or are frail in sneasel's case. It also spiked a increase in bouffalant's usage which is a decent poke but it's low speed is easy to prey on and serperior has 5 other teammates to deal with it. Ban
 
Dragalge is truly too good for the tier. Not only does it act as a total nuke towards 90% of everything that isn't a Registeel, but it also just finds way too many times where it can come and just totally nuke the opponent, because of its ridiculous special bulk and great typing. I have plenty experience with this thing - almost every RU team I use packs this thing, and there is NEVER a battle where it does not get one kill. If it had horrible bulk and couldn't switch in for shit, then it would be fine. But Dragalge can take usually take a hit because of its beautiful bulk and typing, and it will almost always OHKO in return. Top this off with an immunity to Toxic, and it makes it even harder to keep under control. If I had to say so myself, just seeing this thing on the opposing team already makes the game 6-5. I can never completely handle this monster, and it will always OHKO one of my Pokemon or just take a good chunk of them out. Ban.

I personally don't think that Pidgeot is ban-worthy. It's great, one of the best Pokemon in the tier, but it has too many shortcomings for it to be banned. It does lack the necessary power to OHKO many things such as Moltres, and it is stopped hard by Rock-types if it doesn't carry Hidden Power Grass. It's completely countered by Eelektross, Alomomola can outlast it, Meleotta ALWAYS will be able to tank a hit or two from it, and in general it's just a Pokemon that can be handled. Stealth Rock wears it down, and it can easily be statused. Registeel and Bronzong aren't even 3HKOed by Heat Wave, and the former can just paralyze it. The Refresh set can't do shit against Eelektross, Registeel, Rhyperior, or Bronzong, and it can be stalled out by many thing. It's a great mon, sure, but it's counterable. Do Not Ban.

When I get reqs I'll post more about Serperior, haven't seen much of it.
 

aVocado

@ Everstone
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Can we use a non-joke/shitty song for once please? :[

Anyway, on the suspect Pokemon... I usually agree with the suspects (I've voted Ban on all suspects so far) and that they're usually very obvious, but I've a different opinion on this one. First of all, I seriously think Serperior is being /way/ overrated and blown out of proportion right now. I admit I haven't been playing as much lately because school takes up 3/4 of my day and the fourth quarter is usually a combination of internet + smogon and no time for Pokemon, but I have played a bit and I still stand by my claim. I can name four Pokemon in the tier that can directly switch into any move on any set it chooses to run, and those are Fletchinder, Moltres, Amoonguss, and Golbat. You can argue that Stealth Rock hamper the former two a lot and I won't disagree there, but that doesn't disregard them completely.

Amoonguss is a counter. Some people will argue that it can easily take a Sludge Bomb and then kills with SR + Leaf Storm on the switch followed by 2 HP Fires.. but Serperior also dies from Sludge Bomb + SR and two rounds of Life Orb recoil, and Amoonguss would live with a bit of HP left (like 15-30%? Not exactly sure of the math here). You could also switch Amoonguss in, use Clear Smog after getting hit by Leaf Storm + HP Fire and then switch into another Pokemon that can take an unboosted Leaf Storm (there are many) or a pitifully weak HP Fire (a lot more); Amoonguss /can/ die to highest rolls + SR but so can Serperior, and the chances of Amoonguss winning are higher. This is all assuming 132 SpD EVs on Amoonguss. I used 252 HP / 124 Def / 132 SpD Bold to take a +6 Return from Slurpuff at full but you can drop defense for more spdef (particularly if you have a steel-type which every team should by now) and then Amoongss will almost always win.

Fletchinder and Moltres are mostly revenge killers but they can switch into any unboosted move assuming Stealth Rock are up, and easily kill it off with Acrobatics or Flamethrower respectively. I know about the scenario where Rocks are present, you Defog as Serperior switches in and gets an evasion boost; but honestly I don't find that a valid argument because Serperior itself can't switch into the defoggers. Gligar has U-turn to nab momentum quickly and Golbat has Brave Bird, and while the former can't U-turn into Moltres/Fletch because Rocks would be present then you could just go to something that could handle it better.. if your team lacks that, well then you're forced to let your bird take stealth rock damage, and I acknowledge that that's pretty bad.

Golbat suffers from Stealth Rock weakness as well but I honestly don't think that that's gonna stop it from countering Serperior. A higher roll of Brave Bird can KO after Rocks + LO recoil and then it can just roost off the damage.

The above is mostly talk on-paper but don't dismiss it just because of that, because I have played some games where Serperior was present and I dealt with it using the methods I just explained. In the end it's hard to counter a bit but that's kinda the point because it's pretty much a wallbreaker. It has a hard time against offense because then it has to come in against something that it outspeeds AND gain a Leaf Storm boost before doing /any/ serious damage; and Pokemon like Mega Pidgeot and Sceptile both outspeed and can actually switch in on unboosted attacks, although admittedly the most Sceptile can do is Outrage (62.8 - 74.2%) or Dragon Pulse (53.9 - 63.9%).

Moving on to Dragalge.. I won't deny that it's pretty much the best Pokemon in the metagame as I explained in the previous thread in a post I made there, but right now I don't see it as banworthy. It, along with other Pokemon (namely Pangoro) did manage to shift the metagame greatly to make it more bulky offensive than stallish/hyper offensive, and it's probably centralizing, but is that a reason to ban it? It uses Specs really well, and is arguably the best (and definitely most common) Specs user in RU right now, but let's take a look at the chances it has to come in: against Alomomola, Electric-types, and.. bulky grasses? Alomomola doesn't exactly give it an /entirely/ free switch-in because Dragalge absolutely loathes Scald burns, and it has Protect to scout what it's going to use if its specs. Electric-types are limited to Jolteon, Heliolisk, Eelektross, and Rotom-C. Jolteon always carries HP Ice now for a few reasons I won't go into right now, Heliolisk doesn't give it a free switch in with Hyper Voice (LO against 200 HP Drag: 44.2 - 52.3%), Eelektross knocks its item off, and Rotom-C can burn although it's not common, and all of them can Volt Switch away. Basically what I'm saying here is that Offense doesn't fare badly against it. Talking about Stall now, as I explained with Alomomola, it doesn't give that much of a free switch-in, and I can't think of any other Pokemon it can switch into on Stall really.. It can come in via VoltTurn though and that's threatening, but in the same way every wallbreaker switching in via VoltTurn is, there's really no difference except maybe that Dragalge is the scariest of them all. There is also Bronzong and Registeel, the latter which takes a heap from Focus Blast, yes, but they can directly switch in and wittle it down with Earthquake and Seismic Toss respectively..

The real threat here is the offensive toxic spikes set, or Draco/Toxic Plate/Life Orb, and they're probably more threatening than the Specs set simply because they can switch moves and lay up t.spikes which is pretty amazing... but they lack that one coverage move meaning Zong/Regi can switch in even easier, unless you forego D.Pulse for a coverage move (i'm assuming draco/sludge bomb/d.pulse/t.spikes set here). There is another thing: a lot of teams have both a fairy-type and a steel-type, and that causes some unfortunate 50/50s (yes i'm using the fucking term) for Specs Dragalge and while it isn't exactly a 50/50 with non-Specs sets, it still sucks. In the end I acknowledge Dragalge to be the top Pokemon of RU and extremely amazing but I'm not sure if its banworthy or not, because while it is strong and centralizing a bit, it has a few issues that kinda hold it back a bit.

I might post my thoughts on Mega Pidgeot later now cuz I'm bored of all this typing.

I'm entering this suspect test with the mentality that none of the 3 suspects deserve to be banned though, but I'm prone to changing my views as I play more of the Serperior-infested metagame.

i expect to get a lot of shit for this and from specific people but oh well lol, just my honest thoughts.
 
Dragalge: While its speed stat is very low and makes it able to be revenge killed easily, I feel like its ability to nuke things so easily with relatively no switch-ins makes it too powerful for the tier. The typing is just icing on top of the cake. It isn't ridiculously overpowered, I just feel the meta would be healthier after a ban.

Pidgeotite: I don't find Mega Pidgeot radically broken, but I simply feel the meta would also be healthier without Mega Pidgeot. Hurricane and Heat Wave nuke quite a few things, the confusion can become quite a headache, and you can easily get the f#%k out with a quick u-turn and trap whatever its issue is with dugtrio. I also feel like if it doesn't get banned this stage its only bound to be worse if Dragalge and Serperior leave. So imo, even though it isn't absolutely broken like past mons, I'll vote for ban.

Serperior: I simply Serperior to simply be too strong, and in my opinion the most dangerous of the three. If it isn't sweeping now, it's sweeping later, and while you can work around that, it's to a degree where if you're leaving yourself covered from Serperior, the opponent's 5 other mons will reign terror. In addition, RU is blessed/cursed with an AMAZING trapper in the form of dugtrio which pairs nicely with all these mons, Serp being no exception. I definitely say ban.

My opinion in one sentence: Serperior is the only thing I find overpowered, but I'm voting ban on Pidgeotite and Dragalge because I feel like the meta would be much healthier without them, that being said, I completely understand why some may want to keep it because they aren't over the top destructive.

On a side note I'll be seeing Azealia Banks at Coachella in April, can't wait :D
 
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Dragalge: While it is definitely a really good Pokemon in RU, I don't feel its broken. It has trouble breaking through anything that can take a draco meteor or any of its coverage moves (bronzong, escavalier as long as it lacks HP fire, Jellicent, etc.) Another big issue it has is its speed. It can be OHKO'd by many faster threats in the tier, and if you add on the fact that its best move lowers its special attack, it is terribly easy to force it to switch out. Its a great Pokemon to use but I don't feel its ban worthy.

Mega Pidgeot: This is the mega I have been using on almost every team since ORAS came out. While I can't give this thing enough praise, I also don't feel it is too strong for the tier. No guard hurricane is fantastic, but with the only other coverage move it has access to being heat wave, Rhyperior and most specially defensive walls in the tier can handle it fairly well. Also, being outsped and OHKO'd by jolteon is an issue for it as well.

Serperior: I haven't used this enough to give an accurate enough opinion on it
 
A really first impression as i'm a little bit out of shape in RU-
Dragalge- I like using this thing, in any tier. The combination of good bulk and amazing nuking power, along the typing to back this thing out is amazing. It so easy to slap on a team its not funny.
But with all his pros, nothing is comparable to adaptility draco meteor, even his counters wouldn't like to switch in to such a thing. When you see something that like that, the first thing that pop to mind is a fairy type mon, but guess what? It got a adaptility slude bomb to murder those.
RU would like to have some pink blob that could counter so hard its sad( and even than we don't want to be forced to run this on every team).
Its just feel that this thing is a little bit too much for this meta.
Ban

Mega pidgeot-
with a powerful 135 base s.attack and blazing 121 base speed along neat coverage of hurricane and heat wave. The first thing come to mind is a balanced version of scarf moltres and life orb moltres-but withot being locked into a move or lose hp by attacking, and also have the luxury of 100% accurate moves. The only drawback this thing have I can think is the fact it take a mega slot, and while the mega slot in ORAS is harder than XY, pidgeot is easily the best mega at the moment. Pidgeot blessed with the fact that in this tier it have best partner he could ask for-Dugtrio. The mole easily disposed the rock types that trouble it.
But luckly the meta is able to deal with, and a lot of time it feels that this thing just don't hit strong enough. And given the fact that its not a good 1 on 1 mon, in such a bulky meta, and with so limited coverage, it cost him a lot.
No Ban.

Serperior-
in all honesty, I didn't use this thing or played against it in any tier, so its gonna all theorymoning and limited opinion. Its look as amazing sweeper, it have great speed and decent bulk, and his only problem can be solved with 130 power stab nasty plot. Once its counters are gone everything just die.
I can see this thing go, but for now I have no true opinion on this thing.
 
Pidgeot just isn't over centralizing enough to have to leave. Any rock or electric type absolutely counters it. Plus, it's movepool is too shallow to impact anything that isn't hit super-effective or specially weak.

252- SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 124-148 (36.6 - 43.7%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252- SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 252-298 (78 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252- SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Hitmonchan: 204-242 (67.1 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These are 3 examples of fairly common pokemon in RU that Mega pidgeot should dominate, but yet doesn't. Bronzong lives enough heat waves to set up rocks, or even kill it with gyro ball. 0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (148 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 174-205 (56.4 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Cobalion, even with it's piss poor special defense doesn't die from a heat wave and can kill with stone edge. Hitmonchan, arguably the worst fighting type in the tier doesn't die from a base 135 STAB Hurricane and kills with ice punch + mach punch. Do not ban.

Serperior is definitely a tough choice. At the surface, it doesn't seem to powerful; only base 75 special attack and a bad special movepool. However, leaf storm hits a lot of pokemon hard and in turn gives it +2 for free. Not to mention, it has a fast base 113 speed. Leaf storm + Sub + Hidden Power Fire + d-pulse threatens a lot in Ru. However, seven types resist grass. While hp fire takes care of bug and grass, and d-pulse takes care of dragons, Steel types in RU Are too bulky to die to an hp fire. There are a lot of opportunities where serperior can dominate, but then falls short.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 130-153 (35.7 - 42%) -- 88.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 153-182 (45.2 - 53.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 198-234 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 281-333 (84.1 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 230-272 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These are very common pokemon in the tier that serperior cannot do enough to at +2 and is then either defeated or crippled and useless. It has the potential to be over centralizing, but not yet. Until then, Do not ban.
 
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atomicllamas

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Pidgeot just isn't over centralizing enough to have to leave. Any rock or electric type absolutely counters it. Plus, it's movepool is too shallow to impact anything that isn't hit super-effective or specially weak.
252- SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 124-148 (36.6 - 43.7%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252- SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 252-298 (78 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252- SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Hitmonchan: 204-242 (67.1 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
These are 3 examples of fairly common pokemon in RU that Mega pidgeot should dominate, but yet doesn't. Bronzong lives enough heat waves to set up rocks, or even kill it with gyro ball. 0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (148 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 174-205 (56.4 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Cobalion, even with it's piss poor special defense doesn't die from a heat wave and can kill with stone edge. Hitmonchan, arguably the worst fighting type in the tier doesn't die from a base 135 STAB Hurricane and kills with ice punch + mach punch. Do not ban.
Serperior is definitely a tough choice. At the surface, it doesn't seem to powerful; only base 75 special attack and a bad special movepool. However, leaf storm hits a lot of pokemon hard and in turn gives it +2 for free. Not to mention, it has a fast base 113 speed. Leaf storm + Sub + Hidden Power Fire + d-pulse threatens a lot in Ru. However, seven types resist grass. While hp fire takes care of bug and grass, and d-pulse takes care of dragons, Steel types in RU Are too bulky to die to an hp fire. There are a lot of opportunities where serperior can dominate, but then falls short.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 130-153 (35.7 - 42%) -- 88.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 153-182 (45.2 - 53.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 198-234 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 281-333 (84.1 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 230-272 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
These are very common pokemon in the tier that serperior cannot do enough to at +2 and is then either defeated or crippled and useless. It has the potential to be over centralizing, but not yet. Until then, Do not ban.
Why the fuck are you using jolly in your mega pidgeot calcs.
 
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