Metagame NP: RU Stage 6: Heavy Metal and Reflective (ALL 3 SUSPECTS BANNED, DISCUSSING POST BANS META NOW)

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Ares

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Just to reiterate some points about Dragalge that might sway you to think its ban worthy.

Firstly, Dragalge vs offense is one of the scariest mons to face cause literally nothing on offensive can survive one or two hits. It is really not too difficult either to get dragalge in safely. With the help of slow voltturn, from the likes of lanturn, gligar, or eel, dragalge can fire a powerful specs dmeteor vs offensive teams. Unlike other playstyles, offense can't truly afford to run these slow bulky mons like registeel or cress because these mons just lost momentum. Even more offensive checks like AV escav are easily worn down because of the lack recovery. So basically every time dragalge gets in it will net a kill.
Not true, there are offensive checks that can switch in and survive a hit against Dragalge as well as the fact that after Dragalge gets below 70-80% health its low speed makes it easy prey for most offensive teams. Primarily having played offense and balance for the duration of the suspect test I gotta say that Dragalge was the least threatening of all the suspects to play against.
 

Double01

Hate it or love it the under dog's on top
Besides just saying there are offensive checks why not list a few. It would be beneficial to not only me but everyone.

Also i dont know where you are getting this 70% number. Here are a few calcs where drag survives when at 70-80% against the strongest offensive threats in the game.

252 SpA Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 154-183 (47.9 - 57%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 189-223 (58.8 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 187-221 (58.2 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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atomicllamas

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Not true, there are offensive checks that can switch in and survive a hit against Dragalge as well as the fact that after Dragalge gets below 70-80% health its low speed makes it easy prey for most offensive teams. Primarily having played offense and balance for the duration of the suspect test I gotta say that Dragalge was the least threatening of all the suspects to play against.
Can you name these offensive Pokemon that easily switch into Dragalge (I mean I'm sure there are some that survive but Meloetta has a chance to be OHKOed (guaranteed with rocks) and that is p much the most specially bulky offensive mon I can think of) ?_? Also even if Dragalge is below 70-80% health, its resistances to key offensive-types such as Water, Fire, Electric, and Fighting (as well as nice resists to less important types), and its above average bulk for an offensive Pokemon do not make it "easy prey" for most offensive teams. Of course if the Dragalge user decides to leave Dragalge in on the Pokemon that you switch in to revenge kill it (after it has made a kill) then your offensive team should be able to revenge kill it, but they don't have to leave it in. The Steel-types that fit most easily onto offensive teams (these are usually the best bet for Dragalge switch-ins) are easily OHKOed (non-eviolite Magneton) or outsped and 2HKOed (Doublade) by Draco Meteor. I do agree that Dragalge is the least threatening of the three to offensive teams, given that the other two Pokemon have incredible speed tiers to back up their high power STAB moves, but Dragalge does have a lot more going for it than just its incredible power (most powerful move in the tier!), it can function as a good team supporter with Toxic Spikes, as well as use its good defensive typing to tie together balanced teams with more defensive spreads (still hits really hard too). Dragalge is also much more threatening to balance than Mega Pidgeot and to Stall than Serperior so while Double01 is correct in saying offense struggles with Dragalge in the tier, so do most playstyles. Its hard to say Dragalge is the most centralizing force in the meta game, as all three of the current suspects put an incredible strain on team building (especially for offense), but that's exactly why all three need to leave ASAP, lol.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meloetta: 308-364 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 224-264 (71.7 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 255-301 (105.3 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

Ares

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Mawile the hard counter on offense :^)

A lot of it has to do with the fact that Dragalge is reliant on Choice Specs (for most of its sets), seeing as its going to be locked into either a Dragon-type move or a Poison-type move having an immunity or a resistance to one of them forces the Dragalge user to choose. (Please keep in mind that these are checks, meaning they aren't ment to switch in more than once and are ment to switch in on either Draco or Sludge)

Rhyperior - takes minimal damage from Sludge Bomb
Cresselia - can come in on a Draco and Moonlight off the damage
Slowking - can come in on any move, live, and then pivot out into an appropriate check
Slurpuff - forces Choice Specs Dragalge to not use Draco Meteor as it gives a free set up opportunity to Slurpuff which usually results in a sweep
Whimsicott - immune to Draco, forces a 50 / 50
Dugtrio - can come in and trap and KO Dragalge making it not a threat to those types of teams
Meloetta - different variants take it better than your above listed calc and can KO with Psyshock

Steel-types: immune to Sludge Bomb forcing a 50/50
Coballion - Immune to Sludge Bomb, takes like 70% from Draco
Escavalier - Immune to Sludge Bomb, takes 30% from Draco
Durant - can't take a draco, but is immune to sludge bomb so when coupled with something like Slurpuff forces the opponent to choose wisely
Magneton - takes about 60% from Draco on the Eviolite set
Mega-Steelix - takes 30% ish from Draco and is immune to Sludge Bomb


Not to mention anything faster with a Super Effective move can deal with Dragalge after it gets below 80% health. Ofc those Pokemon aren't as good of checks as the above, but having a team of hard hitting mons that can do enough damage to take it out below 80% means that Dragalge is hard pressed to come in more than once to actually do anything against offensive teams.
I'm not going to relist the above Pokemon as they can also be used on Balance, some of them are better on balance then others.

Alomomola - can live any one hit and wish off the damage, along with the fact that Mirror Coat always kills Dragalge, lots of people assume that Alomomola is a free switchin for Dragalge but unless its below 70% health it will die to Mirror Coat
Aromatisse - Immune to Draco, and when coupled with a resist or a poison-type immunity forces Dragalge to predict correctly limiting its capabilities
Specially Defensive Amoongus - can pivot in and out of any move and into an appropriate check
Bronzong - takes little from Draco, is immune to Sludge Bomb
Golbat - can come in on any move and roost of the damage
Specially Defensive Gligar (apparently this is a thing) - can come in and roost of Draco damage and KO with EQ
Jellicent - can come in and recover of Draco damage and resists Sludge Bomb, its faster than the standard Dragalge spread
Registeel - takes little from Draco and can do a variety of support options as well as take it out with EQ
Muk - seen this around a little bit and AV coupled with Mola can take on all of the suspects
 

Ares

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Thats why they're checks? Thats the literal definition of a check, something that can come in on a main STAB but gets beat by either repeated switch ins or a coverage move.
 

atomicllamas

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Mawile the hard counter on offense :^)

A lot of it has to do with the fact that Dragalge is reliant on Choice Specs (for most of its sets), seeing as its going to be locked into either a Dragon-type move or a Poison-type move having an immunity or a resistance to one of them forces the Dragalge user to choose. (Please keep in mind that these are checks, meaning they aren't ment to switch in more than once and are ment to switch in on either Draco or Sludge)

Rhyperior - takes minimal damage from Sludge Bomb
OHKOed by Draco Meteor, slower, not really a switch in
Cresselia - can come in on a Draco and Moonlight off the damage
Needs heavy investment in SpD, its only "offensive set" is sub cm which runs Def and this is a stretch, either way it can't switch into sludge bomb
Slowking - can come in on any move, live, and then pivot out into an appropriate check
Can pivot in but loses at least 8% + hazard damage to sludge bomb or 27% + Hazard Damage to Draco, it really can only do this once or twice (this is AV king)
Slurpuff - forces Choice Specs Dragalge to not use Draco Meteor as it gives a free set up opportunity to Slurpuff which usually results in a sweep
Not every Dragalge runs Specs, but either way this isn't a switch in
Whimsicott - immune to Draco, forces a 50 / 50
Idk why Pokemon that are immune to one STAB are switch ins if they are demolished by the other, I probably wouldn't switch this in unless I was in a losing position
Dugtrio - can come in and trap and KO Dragalge making it not a threat to those types of teams
Not a switch in
Meloetta - different variants take it better than your above listed calc and can KO with Psyshock
SpD Meloetta isn't on offensive teams, neither is Sub CM, but that still loses cause Sub CM runs Normal STAB + Shadow Ball, other sets use my spread

Steel-types: immune to Sludge Bomb forcing a 50/50
Thanks for explaining the type-chart, very necessary
Coballion - Immune to Sludge Bomb, takes like 70% from Draco
In other words Can't do anything back gets 2hkoed
Escavalier - Immune to Sludge Bomb, takes 30% from Draco
Stretch for AV Esca to be on offense, but true I guess
Durant - can't take a draco, but is immune to sludge bomb so when coupled with something like Slurpuff forces the opponent to choose wisely
Oh steel is immune to poison? thanks for the advice xD
Magneton - takes about 60% from Draco on the Eviolite set
Evio Set also does like 35% in return and it takes 70% minimum, lol
Mega-Steelix - takes 30% ish from Draco and is immune to Sludge Bomb
Yes this is good in RU xD


Not to mention anything faster with a Super Effective move can deal with Dragalge after it gets below 80% health. Ofc those Pokemon aren't as good of checks as the above, but having a team of hard hitting mons that can do enough damage to take it out below 80% means that Dragalge is hard pressed to come in more than once to actually do anything against offensive teams.
I'm not going to relist the above Pokemon as they can also be used on Balance, some of them are better on balance then others.

Alomomola - can live any one hit and wish off the damage, along with the fact that Mirror Coat always kills Dragalge, lots of people assume that Alomomola is a free switchin for Dragalge but unless its below 70% health it will die to Mirror Coat
Wrong
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 104 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 434-512 (87.3 - 103%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Aromatisse - Immune to Draco, and when coupled with a resist or a poison-type immunity forces Dragalge to predict correctly limiting its capabilities
you are also forced to predict correctly, prediction is a two way street?
Specially Defensive Amoongus - can pivot in and out of any move and into an appropriate check
amazing plan
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 316-374 (73.1 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Bronzong - takes little from Draco, is immune to Sludge Bomb
Of course Bronzong counters, but you are simply proving double01 right that people have to run momentum killing steel-types to deal with dragalge
Golbat - can come in on any move and roost of the damage
*SpD bat
Specially Defensive Gligar (apparently this is a thing) - can come in and roost of Draco damage and KO with EQ
Draco Still does 72% minimum, so I hope your Gligar is at 100%
Jellicent - can come in and recover of Draco damage and resists Sludge Bomb, its faster than the standard Dragalge spread
Its also bad on everything barring full or semi-stall
Registeel - takes little from Draco and can do a variety of support options as well as take it out with EQ
See Bronzong
Muk - seen this around a little bit and AV coupled with Mola can take on all of the suspects
A sign that they are broken is when people are seriously considering Muk for their RU team, lol
My responses in bold in the quote

to summarize:
All you proved is that drag forces a bunch of 50-50s or else you lose a mon. Seems like a balanced mon...
Also just as a hint, you should probably actually calc stuff with standard spreads before making claims like SpD Alomomola can survive any hit and wish off the damage, which is false unless you run a really sub optimal Alomomola set without any physical defense, or that Evio Magneton takes 60% from draco when the standard spread takes 70% minimum...

Edit: also this is only Specs. What if you come across a none choiced Dragalge, do you just forfeit?
 
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AM

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I didn't finish getting reqs cause I sort of procrastinated a whole lot and focused on other matters but I did play enough to get an idea for each of the suspects.

I have 0 clue how people are getting the idea that Dragalge is remotely healthy lol. I'll sort of use Montsegur's list above which I sort of agree with....but not quite. If you're betting on abusing the aspect of Specs Dragalge to somehow switch into a supposed check to it then chances are you're betting on a gamble based on its coverage move and let's hope you realistically have something to actually take a hit from this thing. 70% from Draco on Cobalion is not normal rofl. We're talking about something that has a decent amount of bulk to begin with and 70% off of a resist which is sort of absurd when you consider that aspect of Cobalion. You get 1 free shot to tank the hit and after that whatever sort of game plan you have on taking the next hits is either banking on your secondary check, which is probably a garbage game-plan or mandatory regenerator mon to begin with, or is going to be something get sacked to force something in for free. Also Montsegur the thing I agree with is that yes those can be considered checks so to speak. However, if you've noticed these things are so insanely bulky to begin with and most of these are from the defensive side of RU that is dependent on their typing. So this sort of comes back to an issue of centralization. Sure some of these normal for RU standards but others like AV Muk is sort of a big "wtf?!?" if this is peoples go to catch all for everything and sort of just proves how ridicolous these can be at times. You have either extremely bulky stuff like Cresselia, which I think is sort of ridiculous as well but that's a topic for another time, or just stuff that is extremely shaky answers to begin with. If offense doesn't have the ability to threaten Dragalge right away, something is more than likely getting sacked.

This is a similar deal with Serperior except this one has a better match-up against offense due to its speed tier and how stupidly easily it is to just pop off a Leaf Storm and get to work. A lot of the games I played would end up being a race of which suspect would be eliminated first. I think Serperior has issues with some things like Amoonguss and Golbat but it doesn't change the fact that outside of these x4 checks and extremely bulky stuff it, in a similar way to Dragalge, invalidates a bunch of defensive builds and in a sense forces these stupid sacks that just comes back to myself thinking how this is actually normal. I'm not going to lie and think this is impossible to beat but in all honesty a lot of games against this thing was relying on already strong stuff in the tier like Scarf Moltres to handle, other scarf users with access to U-Turn, and double switches on coverage to get them safely in.

M-Pidgeot I'm not exactly sure of. It doesn't really invalidate defensive builds the way the prior two do but at the same time it's a bitch towards offense and surprisingly enough that Confusion rate with Hurricane just so happens to come at the precise moments that screws over whatever relevant plan you had for it against anything that falls under its speed tier, which isn't exactly too hard to imagine considering the speed tiers you see quite often on the majority of the tier. I don't think M-Pidgeot is broken, but I do think it's unhealthy from a practical level that I've been able to utilize.

Final words I think all three of them should go. I think all three of them should go not only for what each of them bring to the table but also for the fact that their presence right now is masking the problems with other Pokemon I feel that are suspect worthy and shouldn't be in RU in the first place. Yes you can sort of play around most of these and generally top tier threats all have this similar trait. However after playing matches on the suspect ladder I feel like playing around these particular threats among others is not exactly playing the game more than just banking on a couple unsafe switch ins and situations that can be easily taken advantage of.
 
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Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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Also since when was shit like cress, slowking, eviolite magneton, steelix good on offense anyways
Bulky offense is a thing? Steelix is pretty decent, I wouldn't knock it unless you've tried it.

My responses in bold

to summarize:


Also just as a hint, you should probably actually calc stuff with standard spreads before making claims like SpD Alomomola can survive any hit and wish off the damage, which is false unless you run a really sub optimal Alomomola set without any physical defense, or that Evio Magneton takes 60% from draco when the standard spread takes 70% minimum...

Edit: also this is only Specs. What if you come across a none choiced Dragalge, do you just forfeit?
I like how you're down playing an immunity to something, the fact that having an immunity to a move can force someone to be careful when locking themselves into something is pretty huge. Also I did calc stuff, seeing as the calc's provided spread for Alomomola has it surviving and only doing 70%, which I gotta say has screwed me over in the past when I thought I had a KO on Alomomola with Dragalge but they were using an "inferior spread" and I lost my Dragalge and they could regen off the damage.

Non choice locked Dragalge hasn't been exactly common, but when I did run into it the damage output between specs and no specs was actually about 20-30%. Which makes Dragalge a whole lot less threatening and a lot easier to deal with.

Edit: also I wouldn't knock Muk, seeing as it can deal with 5 out of the 6 S rank mons, its more of an anti meta Pokemon. Also Probopass can also deal with Dragalge, forgot to mention that.
 
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I wasn't really going to post here since I was just going to get reqs and vote and not get involved in all of this discussion about things which really don't even need discussion since to any half-decent RU player they should be pretty obvious but since I'm sick of this happening I'm going to actually waste time writing something. Montsegur, when ever I see "Montsegur replied to the thread" in my alerts for any suspect discussion I just think "oh god here we go again". Many people have conservative banning philosophies but you can't seem to actually understand when something is broken for god knows why and it's really fucking annoying considering it happens in almost every suspect test you participate it. To quote Spirit: "I urge voters to really look at whether or not this meta is desirable because afaik, not a single RU player playing in SPL thinks RU is in a good place right now, and many are of the opinion (including myself) that RU is in fact in a terrible state. Something needs to be done here; there is no way one can vote no ban on all three suspects and have proper meta knowledge; I even read some of the no ban posts claiming something along the lines of, "it's hard to come up with anti-ban reasoning" which is probably a pretty big hint in and of itself." and he's absolutely right. I don't know how you can be so ignorant of the meta, but maybe you just have no idea what a balanced meta looks like and you can't understand how important one is since you've never played in any situation that you think "damn, I wish this broken threat wasn't giving me such a hard time". It's annoying. And this always happens with you. I mentioned to Molk on IRC, it's genuinely worrying that there are people who managed to get reqs that somehow think that even one, NOT TO MENTION 3 of these Pokemon aren't broken considering this is just a sweep to get rid of obviously broken shit so we can address more controversial cases, like Moltres, Pangoro, Cresselia, all of which are broken in the eyes of many top players. To quote New Breed from the SPL thread, "WEPWNPOKEMON and I will do battle in the ORAS RU tier the exact way it is now.. just without: Serperior, Dragalge, Pidgeot, Sceptile, Moltres, Cresselia, Reckless Emboar, Glalie and Pangoro". Is this what we want? The highest level of competition thinking a tier is bad? All of the RU players in SPL I've talked to think RU is unenjoyable at the moment. Yet for some reason you don't even have the common sense to see that obviously broken Pokemon are broken, you're indirectly affecting the tier that people playing in SPL should be enjoying, that was so enjoyable in BW. And you're a moderator too, you're supposed to be someone for the community to look up to, but when you don't even know the tier, that's a genuine worry.
 

Ares

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I like how anyone who isn't of a like mind of you is therefore wrong, the fact that you can't look at the other possibilities and see the other side of the argument just is laughable and doesn't add any credence to your argument.
 

Jaiho

bandy legged troll
Also I did calc stuff, seeing as the calc's provided spread for Alomomola has it surviving and only doing 70%, which I gotta say has screwed me over in the past when I thought I had a KO on Alomomola with Dragalge but they were using an "inferior spread" and I lost my Dragalge and they could regen off the damage.
I dont really care to comment on the rest of the shitstorm you are causing, but this line in particular irks me. Yes, the spread is indeed inferior, because now mola is a lot weaker to the common physical attackers in the tier, many of which mola *should* be walling.

Also, I admit to being slightly confused. Exactly how many times has this situation happened to you? If many, you shouldn't be letting your dragalge get so low that scald + burn kills, especially when you still have a mola to kill. If this has only happened once, then you shouldnt use anecdotes to fuel your argument, which you, a moderator, should already know.
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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Bulky offense is a thing? Steelix is pretty decent, I wouldn't knock it unless you've tried it.


I like how you're down playing an immunity to something, the fact that having an immunity to a move can force someone to be careful when locking themselves into something is pretty huge. Also I did calc stuff, seeing as the calc's provided spread for Alomomola has it surviving and only doing 70%, which I gotta say has screwed me over in the past when I thought I had a KO on Alomomola with Dragalge but they were using an "inferior spread" and I lost my Dragalge and they could regen off the damage.

Non choice locked Dragalge hasn't been exactly common, but when I did run into it the damage output between specs and no specs was actually about 20-30%. Which makes Dragalge a whole lot less threatening and a lot easier to deal with.

Edit: also I wouldn't knock Muk, seeing as it can deal with 5 out of the 6 S rank mons, its more of an anti meta Pokemon. Also Probopass can also deal with Dragalge, forgot to mention that.
I'm not downplaying an immunity, you're downplaying the fact that all of your checks are OHKOed if they switch into the wrong move, so they are really bad checks (remember that prediction goes both ways). Also a lot of your checks, such as SpD Golbat and SpD Gligar, are forced to roost (or for the regen mons switch out) immediately after, making them pretty bad checks, and also extremely exploitable. For example, for regenerator mons, I can just switch at the same time Slowking switches out (and its easy to predict because not many mons can take a Sludge Bomb or even a -2 Draco Meteor), of course you can predict this and stay in, but the risk reward is heavily in favor of the Dragalge player. Non-choiced Dragalge is pretty common at higher levels of play, and while it is weaker, it also has far more utility and it beats all the Pokemon on your list that rely on choice-locked immunities to beat Dragalge.

To clarify trc Montsegur is not an RU mod and it isn't his responsibility to have extremely thorough meta game knowledge (although everyone planning on posting should have some meta game knowledge).

I like how anyone who isn't of a like mind of you is therefore wrong, the fact that you can't look at the other possibilities and see the other side of the argument just is laughable and doesn't add any credence to your argument.
You are being just as stubborn as he is, and you are also advocating the retention of 3 mons that every SPL player picked up for RU (the 10 starters + me ;o), whom all have great in depth knowledge of the meta game, thinks are extremely unhealthy / broken.

I know you are very conservative in banning Pokemon (ie you voted no ban on Froslass, and you even thought Serperior was fine in NU for a while), but this is pretty ridiculous, and "No Ban" is not a tiering philosophy, these Pokemon are broken and should be removed for the health of the RU meta game.
 

Empress

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Bulky offense is a thing? Steelix is pretty decent, I wouldn't knock it unless you've tried it.


I like how you're down playing an immunity to something, the fact that having an immunity to a move can force someone to be careful when locking themselves into something is pretty huge. Also I did calc stuff, seeing as the calc's provided spread for Alomomola has it surviving and only doing 70%, which I gotta say has screwed me over in the past when I thought I had a KO on Alomomola with Dragalge but they were using an "inferior spread" and I lost my Dragalge and they could regen off the damage.

Non choice locked Dragalge hasn't been exactly common, but when I did run into it the damage output between specs and no specs was actually about 20-30%. Which makes Dragalge a whole lot less threatening and a lot easier to deal with.

Edit: also I wouldn't knock Muk, seeing as it can deal with 5 out of the 6 S rank mons, its more of an anti meta Pokemon. Also Probopass can also deal with Dragalge, forgot to mention that.
"If you are using garbage mons to check a top tier sweeper, then it's potentially a good indicator as to how unhealthy it is." (Ginganinja 2014)

Sorry, but why would you use Muk or Probopass in RU? Probopass is merely a check to Dragalge, as it carries Focus Blast and Scald on most of its sets; its defensive typing is flat-out garbage on top of it. Though Muk may check much of the S-rank, I fail to see what it accomplishes outside of that. If anything, it appears that one needs to resort to niche checks to beat Dragalge, indicating that it has an overcentralizing presence in the metagame. Before this argument began to unfold on the previous page, I planned to abstain from voting for Dragalge, even though I used it frequently on my way to reqs. Now I can confidently say that this thing should be banned. Not gonna rehash anything else.
 
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Ares

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I dont really care to comment on the rest of the shitstorm you are causing, but this line in particular irks me. Yes, the spread is indeed inferior, because now mola is a lot weaker to the common physical attackers in the tier, many of which mola *should* be walling.

Also, I admit to being slightly confused. Exactly how many times has this situation happened to you? If many, you shouldn't be letting your dragalge get so low that scald + burn kills, especially when you still have a mola to kill. If this has only happened once, then you shouldnt use anecdotes to fuel your argument, which you, a moderator, should already know.
Mirror Coat Alomomola KOs Dragalge from full which is what I was referring to, it has actually happened to me 3-4 times in about 15-20 games. Most of the time Dragalge gets a free switch into Alomomola due to its nice resistances and its immunity to Toxic, which is why I switched in in the first place (which plenty of other people do); however, Mirror Coat Alomomola has been on the rise due to the fact that it can KO top threats like Dragalge and Bird Jesus with Mirror Coat. So I guess my meta game knowledge extends past the standard set >.>

You are being just as stubborn as he is, and you are also advocating the retention of 3 mons that every SPL player picked up for RU (the 10 starters + me ;o), whom all have great in depth knowledge of the meta game, thinks are extremely unhealthy / broken.
There is a difference between being stubborn, and straight up being rude to another user because you disagree with their opinions.

I know you are very conservative in banning Pokemon (ie you voted no ban on Froslass, and you even thought Serperior was fine in NU for a while), but this is pretty ridiculous, and "No Ban" is not a tiering philosophy, these Pokemon are broken and should be removed for the health of the RU meta game.
On Serperior, I didn't think immediately calling for a suspect on a mon less than 12 hours after release was warranted as Serperior had been grossly overhyped and at least having 24 hours to playtest it before deciding was warranted as when put into practice Serperior was no where near as good as it was hyped up to be. Just an fyi I think I've voted ban more often than not in most suspect tests I've participated in, just because my opinion is not the same of top level players doesn't make it wrong lol.

Eh, I think I will leave off replying seeing as discussion is going around in circles and not accomplishing anything.
 
Honestly, I feel a major reason why Serperior hasn't been dominant on the ladder (i.e. in practice) is because the ladder has blatantly overprepared for it. I've seen teams that pack 2-3 hard checks and Bronzong was on every other team. Couple this with the fact that some ladder players don't use Serperior properly or don't build around it (like using a Pursuit trapper to smack some of its checks or using something that can take advantage of Amoonguss), and I can see why it wouldn't deal that much damage. Whenever I saw a team that didn't stack Serperior counters, it put in a ton of work. Also note that teams that stacked Serperior counters were often weaker to other prominent threats than they would have been otherwise...sub SD Cobalion was great this suspect test bc it sets up on many of Serperior's checks really easily.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the dramatic increase in use of Serperior checks & counters -- to a point that teams were often much weaker to other Pokemon -- doesn't decrease its brokenness in my eyes.
 

SlottedPig

sem feio
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Yeah, there are plenty of mons that stop Serperior cold, but it's still pretty overpowered. Its ease in sweeping with minimal setup pretty much forces every single team to have a dedicated Serperior counter, even on offense. While Dragalge for instance is extremely devastating, offensive teams can play around it without requiring hard counters that are awkward to fit on such teams (SpD Golbat, SpD Gligar or a SpD steel) while Serperior's presence in the tier requires all teams to carry something specifically for it or they'll get swept. I was even able to set up Serperior sweeps against teams with Golbat since it's so easy to wear down via Stealth Rock (I used SR + Taunt Cobalion).

Also, even things like Pidgeot/Scarf Moltres aren't ideal answers to Serperior. If you hard switch one of those into Serperior, you risk getting hit by Glare, after which setting up a Serp sweep is fairly trivial.
 

zbr

less than 99% acc = never hit
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
So I just got reqs and I wanna just leave my thoughts here about the suspect. In my opinion having the suspects remain on the ladder while you suspect test them just invokes more people to want to run anti-meta teams that heavily check the suspects because they would expect majority of the team to be filled with the suspect.

[Dragalge]
While playing on the ladder, I had little reason not to use him. This monster has so many ban-worthy qualities, I don't even know where I would begin. First of all, Specs is not an absolute must for this mon to hit hard. People are disagreeing with the ban mainly because of the restrictions Specs brings about. However, Draco Plate and even AV are just as good on this mon simply because he hits retardedly hard on his stabs as well as playing towards the surprise factor. Looking at Montsegur's list, a couple of mons are effectively removed when you don't use a locking type item. So now you're left with Alo, Zong, Golbat, Gligar (Wtf), Registeel, Cress, Slowking. Steel Types are no longer as big of a problem as when you were using a choiced item. Dragalge still hits absurdly hard and nabs an OHKO or 2HKO by its STABs alone. It's immunity to Toxic (and ability to absorb T-spikes) make it a lot more difficult for defensive teams to play around, coupled with great defensive typing and respectable bulk, allowing it to switch in multiple times during a battle with relative ease, and making it difficult to revenge kill. It's low speed is definitely a pain but it's power as an offensive nuke, stellar typing and centralising the metagame to the point where it's basically "I get a free switch in Drag and something dies or takes a butt-ton of damage". I'd say to BL2 you go.

[Pidgeotite]
Mega Pidgeot is a very interesting mon. To those who played BW OU before it is largely reminiscent of Torn-T with perm rain. It's ability to spam Hurricanes for free without fear of miss hax makes it an extremely formidable threat. This is also coupled with the fact that it gets U-turn and a great speed tier. Most of it's counters have no reliable recovery and when combined with U-turn, you can easily wear his checks down while freely retaining the momentum of MPidge. 135 SpA combined with a 110 BP STAB attack without drawbacks and has a chance to confuse is very hard to switch into as well. With Heat Wave in it's arsenal, it can still put in a lot of work against steel types. The Work Up set is also really good for breaking some of the special walls the opponent will set you against like AV Slowking and Bronzong. These mons lack reliable recovery, which means over the course of the game they are broken down to the extent that they can no longer effectively check MPidge. The confusion chance on it's main spammable STAB that has absolutely zero drawback is the icing on the cake when coupled with MPidge power, speed, and momentum capabilities. But of course the MPidge has some short coming, his damage output is just not high enough to break some walls in the tier, and with his really bad defenses he can get worn down to the point where he is forced to roost and as a result loses momentum. I am definitely leaning towards ban but I'll get a bit more games and decide if it's banworthy.

[Serperior]
Lastly, we have the snake that everyone wanted his hidden ability. I don't think there is much to say here except that a base 130 power stab that gives you a free +2, coupled with that very strong speed tier, makes this a hell of a threat. From what was initially a drawback, it has now turned around and become a major advantage gaining move. The fact that he gets to do this while attacking is insane because this essentially reduces his vulnerability and shrinks his "wasted turns". He doesn't have the widest movepool but he has enough to make things work (Taunt, Glare, Knock Off, Giga Drain, Dragon Pulse and any suitable Hidden Power Type [commonly Fire or Rock]). Paralysis is ,in general, the aids that it is. Even though Serp has the speed tier that does not require him to abuse Para, but the chance of immobility + reduced speed can be helpful for other members. Lastly, it's blistering fast speed allows it to mow through nearly everything. However, because of the nature of the suspect test, I think the ladder becomes overprepared for it and it loses the effectiveness it should have had. Hence I will definitely abstain until I am convinced I still think MScep is a bigger problem wtf
 
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Dragalge should definite be banned. I don't think many things can switch into a draco; even if it does they still take tons of damage and can just switch out.

and i totally agree with atomicllamas

I am going to vote banned for serperior and dragalge, but keep bird.
 
After I completed the suspect stage requirement, I like to give my little contribution to this thread.

To be honest, I don't like multiple suspects test. I believe that perform a single suspect at a time, could be proper way to verify the overal impact about only one suspect pokemon with/vs a specific tier. I think could be useful make your observations e.g. between Dragalge and Serperior, too. I have seen others suspects like this and I don't know if others Smogon users are thinking in the same way.

Shortly, these are my opinions about three suspected:

[Pidgeotite]
Making suspect ladder, I used Mega-Pidgeot with a classic set (Timid nature, Hurricane, Heat Wave, U-turn and Roost) together Dugtrio and Fletchinder in a bird spam. Well, except vs Rhyperior, Eelektross and bulky Bronzong which could hit it with Gyro Ball (I use it to cripple enemy Mega-Pidgeot, yet!), it seems too easy click on Hurricane button in most cases (70%-80%) with an high confusion rate and rise for the rank without skill and talent. A terrificant cleaner. It outspeeds many 'mons and it's not so much SR suffering, so you could switch in more time even if you have to hold SR forcedly.
U-turn and Roost help it to go away when it's useful to leave field and recovering HP (in "safe mode" after an opponent confusion?) respectively. Mega-Pidgeot seems so good for RU.

[Serperior]
Contrary Serperior. I used it with a classic set (Leaf Storm, Giga Drain, Dragon Pulse, Hidden Power [Fire]) even if I think SubSet has even more potentiality. It's fast enough, hits boosting its SpA and sweep one-by-one opponent mons; thanks a good moves coverage hits whatever except SpD Golbat and Bouffalant, the latter thanks to immunity to the Leaf Storm. This is crushing and in the same way and for this reason annoying.

[Dragalge]
On ladder, I played most frequently vs teams without it. But it's only statistics. Adaptability ability gives to Dragalge additional bulky, its toxic spikes set is really annoying; it has a high base SpAtk, a good coverage (Draco Meteor, Sludge Bomb, Scald/Hydro Pump for Rhyperior, Haze and so on) for a frightening specs set as a wallbreaker role. It's quite difficult switch into all of its move, only one weak point seems it hasn't reliable recovery, so I could be worn down with super effective move from Mega-Camerupt, EQ Registeel (but there is always Hidden Power Fire to gets 2HKOed it) and Rhyperior. However its strong keeps unchanged, with a cleric teammate as Aromatisse or Alomomola.
 
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Inflikted

Orco2
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Mega Pidgeot: B A N.

I think this is easily the most broken of the three suspected mons. We all know how good Flying is as an offensive type; on Pidgeot it is backed up by incredible speed, fire coverage for steels + potential HP grass for perfect coverage, U turn for momentum, Roost for recovery, and the option of running an effective stall breaking set. TL;DR Pidgeot has everything it needs to bend over the tier. I also found the high confusion chance granted by its perfectly accurate Hurricanes to push it even more over the edge, as it gives Pidgeot the ability to hax through its checks way too many times, by either forcing them to break through confusion or lose, or to sack another mon to hope for hurricane to not confuse the next time. During this suspect I won at least two games where i was in a disadvantageous position thanks to confusion hax, and I lost one because my check got confused and was unable to break through while my opponent decided to stay in with pidgeot to bank on the chances. Get rid of this, the tier can only get more enjoyable.

Dragalge: ban

While not as hilariously broken as Mega Pidgeot, Dragalge has a really unhealthy effect on the tier. Its special bulk and resistance to common attacking types gives it many opportunities to come in and get off a huge blow on something, basically for free. If running specs you'll have to get some 50/50s right, of course, but this can't count as anti-ban argument. And you always have the option of running stuff such as Draco / Poison Plate that gives you the freedom of switching moves and running stuff such as the coveted Toxic Spikes. Dragalge also limits teambuilding forcing most teams to incorporate mons that more offensive builds could't affor to incorporate otherwise. And even if your opponent has Bronzong and you have Dragalge, you can just go to Dragalge and double to another wallbreaker such as CB Pangoro and kill something, or go to a setup sweeper and abuse Bronzong's passiveness, or setup Toxic Spikes and switch out without fearing much. Registeel is similar, but you also have the option of 2hkoing with focus blast if you run specs lol. These passive steel types are way too easy to abuse and thus you rarely lose something from using Dragalge.

Serperior: not sure

During my laddering experience, I've never faced one that caused me trouble, probably because the team I was using was very well-prepared against it. On paper, it's probably ban-worthy, being able to setup with unprecedented ease, wear down its counters efficiently, and run alternative sets such as sub seed to put in more work against some teams. And while this doesn't count as a pro-ban argument, let's not forget it is currently held back by the presence of Mega Pidgeot in the tier, and, to a much lesser extent, by the presence of Dragalge. And I can't think of actual anti-ban arguments other than "it has some checks and counters" which doesn't cut it. But as I said I didn't face/use it enough to form an opinion on it, so unless something changes, i will abstain.
 
just wanted to hop in n say that i love all you guys; y'all a bunch of swell guys n gals, and i respect all of ur opinions n abilities to develop your own ideas on the suspects in question. if we could get along n not start throwin around any kinds of sucker punches for this n that, that'd be just groovy. that being said, all the teams i've built after getting reqs have been built on the assumption that all three are gonna get banned, so if anybody would wanna take that into account when voting, i would be very gracious indeed
 

Patolegend!

Fan of 1000 Arrow 'Slash
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
First of all, I've only recently started to play RU during the last couple of months, so I never experienced the haven of BW RU that others have mentioned; I primarily played OU before, but RU piqued my interest. With that out the way, I want to say that I've enjoyed this tier a lot more, and that I have been surprised by the variety of playstyles that I've seen - balance, HO, and stall have all been used and viable, with different teams used successfully on the high ladder during the suspect test from the matches I played and the replays I saw.

I think all of the three suspects are tiltering either side of borderline broken. The team I used might have been prepared for them mind, though opposing Mega Birds should have raped me: I used LO HW Mesprit/LO Dugtrio with rocks, Standard Serp, Work-Up Mega Bird, Reckless Emboar, Unburden Hitmonlee, and SD Doublade.

Dragalge

Dragalge for me was the one that troubled me least; it's been mentioned that it has a great match-up against offense, but it has so many checks that its manageable. Offensive teams are used to sacking 'mons anyway and don't rely on counters; I could sack a 'mon and then either trap with Dug, or revenge with Hitmonlee. Even though its special bulk is pretty good, its physical bulk and speed lets it down, making it easily revenged. Even Emboar 2hkos the standard specs set with unboosted flare blitz:

252+ Atk Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 135-160 (42 - 49.8%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Despite this, it's not the Specs set that makes it broken. I think the variety of successful sets that it brings to the table tips it over the edge. I agree with numerous posters that have stated that the Specs set is easily taken advantage of by bringing a Steel and a Fairy type, forcing it to avoid spamming its stabs (this is easily acheivable for defensive and offensive teams - eg. Bronzong+Aromatisse / Cobalion + Slurpuff), or setting up on it at -2. The plate sets and T Spikes sets are where it's really dangerous, especially as the Specs set is more common and the element of surprise comes into play. Given that I packed Dugtrio on my team, it was also less of a threat than it could have been.

Mega Bird

I'm really torn on Pidgeot to be honest. I used two sets: the standard Hurricane, Heatwave, U-turn, Roost/Defog; and Work-Up/Refresh/Hurricane/Roost. Both sets were underwhelming and overwhelming in different scenarios. I often found it to be the least useful member in my team to be honest - so many teams were prepared for it with AV Eelektross or powerful scarfers that it was easily worn down, and while powerful, it's not quite powerful enough to break through defensive teams with Cresselia, Registeel, and Rhyperior. It's bulk is also not that impressive, with priority attacks and faster scarfers able to revenge it with just a little prior damage.

Some posters have also mentioned that Bird + Dugtrio could be broken, but I found that Dug just doesn't do enough to Bird's biggest counters:

252 Atk Life Orb Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 152-181 (35.8 - 42.6%) -- 93.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 183-218 (42.2 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (destroyed in turn by EQ in both cases)

Nevertheless, the confusion chance can be gamebreaking. I found myself staying in a lot of the time on a Kabutops that had come in to tank a hit to get the 3HKO, knowing the odds were pretty reasonable to get confusion hax at least once on the two hits. This is where it becomes uncompetitive, and where I can see a ban being viable.

Serperior

A free 130BP Nasty Plot sounds really tasty and it is, but I found the ladder was really prepared for Serp. Every defensive team had Amoongus and/or Golbat, while every offensive team had at least 1 mon faster than it, as well as a scarfer to revenge it or priority in the form of Mega Obama or Mega Face. With weaknesses in the form of low bulk, susceptibility to all hazards, and both Leaf Storm's low pp and 90% accuracy, Serp just didn't blow the ladder away.

Nevertheless, the pressure it causes opponent teams both offensive and defensive alike is incredible; you can't let it setup, so it's counters and checks are brought in right away, making them easier to wear down. I can definitely see why a ban is desirable.

Finally, I think Dragalge and Serp should get the boot, but I'm not sure about Pidgeot.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

On another topic, I also think that it would be better to test the subjects in isolation, as testing them together can affect the results of the test. For example, a major check to Serperior is Mega Pidgeot, so Serp might be deemed as not broken due to its high quantity of checks, but when Pidgeot is taken out, Serp is seen as broken and has to be tested again (hypothetically).

Things like Pidgeot/Scarf Moltres aren't ideal answers to Serperior. If you hard switch one of those into Serperior, you risk getting hit by Glare, after which setting up a Serp sweep is fairly trivial.
Pidgeot/Scarf Moltres should come in on and successfully revenge/force Serp out, due to their position on offensive teams, who don't mind sacking a mon. The problem is the limited times they can due so due to rocks.

Sorry, but why would you use Muk or Probopass in RU? Probopass is merely a check to Dragalge, as it carries Focus Blast and Scald on most of its sets; its defensive typing is flat-out garbage on top of it. Though Muk may check much of the S-rank, I fail to see what it accomplishes outside of that.
Also, (and here my lack of depth of knowledge of the lower tiers could be my downfall) I don't like the way that people discount niche counters and use them to explain how broken a 'mon is, i.e. Probopass + Muk. If Muk checks much of the S-Rank, then surely it becomes a viable 'mon in RU? Surely this is just the fluidity, innovation, and creativity of the meta coming into play?

Damn I just realised that is a LONG wall of text. Sorry!
 

Empress

33% coffee / 33% alcohol / 34% estrogen
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Also, (and here my lack of depth of knowledge of the lower tiers could be my downfall) I don't like the way that people discount niche counters and use them to explain how broken a 'mon is, i.e. Probopass + Muk. If Muk checks much of the S-Rank, then surely it becomes a viable 'mon in RU? Surely this is just the fluidity, innovation, and creativity of the meta coming into play?
Technically this is true, but I still believe it's more overcentralization than innovation. Granted, Muk does have a niche here that I never even knew about, but it fails to do anything notable outside of that. To show you what I mean, take Arcanine and Weezing in OU. They were used for the sole sake of checking Mega Mawile, but they were more or less useless outside of that role. While Muk checks more mons than Arcanine or Weezing did, it's still a fairly garbage mon, not even meriting a spot on the RU viability ranking. If a Pokemon requires shitmons to check/counter it, then it's a big factor in indicating its brokenness in a metagame. Not the sole factor, but a major one.
 
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