Metagame NP: RU Stage 7: Of Moons, Birds, and Monsters (BOTH SUSPECTS BANNED, DISCUSSING NEW META)

[qwerts]

Reserved judgement until i was done with laddering due to my inexperience with both pokes, but I've come to one conclusion that I'm satisfied with, and still on the edge about the other.

Pangoro

In practice i found pangoro very underwhelming. I found it on about 90% of the teams on the ladder and easily dealt with it most of the time. On paper it looks great and I'm decently sure that in the hands of competent players it's probably a lot better then what the ladder offers. Its sheer versatility is what scares me the most about it, the coverage it offers makes it incredibly hard to stop if it's being played right. I think the main reason i found it to be easy to deal with is that I laddered solely with a qwilfish team, which was an great switch in to that. I'd normally say non-ban after this experience but with the specialization that is required to stop it I'm still tempted to lean towards ban. The worst part of this mon is that while it can run over stall, it'll also take the backbone out of offensive and balance teams which is easily capitalized on by another faster mon.

Moltres

Moltres is yet another thing i found underwhelming. It put pressure on my team, but not anymore then any other fast special attacker. It had great stabs but is stopped in its tracks by things like t-wave cresselia and outright beaten by tyrantrum. Another thing that's pointed out quite a bit and is a viable point is of course the rock weakness, which i think hinders the usefulness of the u-turn sets. The only set that truly ran over me was a sub life orb set that I found, as far as I know that's not a common set, but the common ones didn't give me much problems. Not many other thoughts on this guy, other then i found him quite overhyped. Just because you find something annoying to face doesn't mean you should ban it, and there are many ways to deal with this bird. Not exactly sure if I'm thinking through all of this right coming from a doubles player, but that's my thoughts on this :x.

Anyways yea, those are my first impressions after getting done with reqs. Overall I'd say that I found the two suspects less broken then everyone else did o_o, but my lack of experience may be showing here.

 

[Ramplestilskin]

Lol Ban Everything, that both makes me laugh and makes me sad. I love the way that every pro ban argument is the exact same thing as this :

S Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

Thus may be every S type in every tiers should be ban. In any case, I'm pretty sure that if you suspect a S mon in any tiers a majority of the community will vote ban. Because most of the time people who get the time to reach the reqs do this in order to ban something. There are people who do this in order to understand the suspect and the metagame and make their opinion (that's what I did last suspect), others that do it because they absolutely don't want to ban one pokemon, but all those that "don't mind" and don't want to take the time to reach the COIL because it's boring generally are not really bothered with the suspects ( otherwise, if they were upsetted I think they would take the time to ladder).

I know I'm not saying anything to argue for a don't ban but I only wanted to point out that something being suspected is, most of the time (I don't say every time) going to be banned because the fact that they are being suspected make a bias for most people and the suspect ladder is awful too.

I'm really intersted in what is the difference between being S rank and being ban worthy for all the people voting Ban, that would help me a lot and may be help to make my opinion.

 

[aVocado]

Lol Ban Everything, that both makes me laugh and makes me sad. I love the way that every pro ban argument is the exact same thing as this :


Thus may be every S type in every tiers should be ban. In any case, I'm pretty sure that if you suspect a S mon in any tiers a majority of the community will vote ban. Because most of the time people who get the time to reach the reqs do this in order to ban something. There are people who do this in order to understand the suspect and the metagame and make their opinion (that's what I did last suspect), others that do it because they absolutely don't want to ban one pokemon, but all those that "don't mind" and don't want to take the time to reach the COIL because it's boring generally are not really bothered with the suspects ( otherwise, if they were upsetted I think they would take the time to ladder).

I know I'm not saying anything to argue for a don't ban but I only wanted to point out that something being suspected is, most of the time (I don't say every time) going to be banned because the fact that they are being suspected make a bias for most people and the suspect ladder is awful too.

I'm really intersted in what is the difference between being S rank and being ban worthy for all the people voting Ban, that would help me a lot and may be help to make my opinion.

Well I mean it's only natural for the best Pokemon to be in S rank and hence, could be broken.

You would expect the broken Pokemon/suspects to be the best Pokemon in the tier after all.

 

[Ramplestilskin]

Yeah but what I mean wasn't that every broken mon was in the S rank but that every S rank pokemon was broken if I follow the argumentation. Because if I take a S rank mon and I list the argument for why it is S rank, I can copy paste those same argument and say it's broken.

 

[aVocado]

Yeah but what I mean wasn't that every broken mon was in the S rank but that every S rank pokemon was broken if I follow the argumentation. Because if I take a S rank mon and I list the argument for why it is S rank, I can copy paste those same argument and say it's broken.

I don't really see your point here.. The Pokemon in S rank are by definition the best Pokemon in the tier, and broken Pokemon are usually also considered the best Pokemon in the tier.

It's kind of obvious that if there was any broken Pokemon or potential suspects, they would usually be in S rank rather than anywhere else. It wouldn't make much sense to suspect a Pokemon that's in A- or B+ for example.

 

[feen]

After laddering and getting the reqs, I have the following opinions:

Pangoro:This thing can singlehandedly destroy a team if it doesn't outspeed it, the banded set literally smashes a bulky team with knock off while the Lum SD set sets up late game and sweeps where there are too much walls. The metagame has become more centralized and people are forced to run 124 Speed EVS on Cresselia to beat it sacrificing it's bulkiness. Therefore I will be voting ban.

Moltres: This bird has shaky accuracy moves, but makes up for an excellent scarfer or a stallier set. However it does have dedicated walls to it in Rhyperior, Aromataise, Tyrantrum, Slowking and Clawitzer tanks a hit so it can be stopped. Also the 4x weakness to rocks suck. Therefore I will be voting no to ban.

 

[Empress]

Moltres: This bird has shaky accuracy moves, but makes up for an excellent scarfer or a stallier set. However it does have dedicated walls to it in Rhyperior, Aromataise, Tyrantrum, Slowking and Clawitzer tanks a hit so it can be stopped. Also the 4x weakness to rocks suck. Therefore I will be voting no to ban.

Of the walls you mentioned, Slowking is actually the only one that walls Moltres. Also, the Scarf and SubToxic sets are NOT Moltres's most threatening sets. Its best one is Life Orb Attacker.

Rhyperior checks Moltres for sure, but it cannot switch into Hidden Power Grass, which many sets run.
252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 285-335 (65.8 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Specially Defensive Aromatisse can wall Moltres and use Wish to recover the damage, but it can't do anything back. Moreover, physically defensive has always been superior. That just goes to show the sheer influence that Moltres has on the tier.
252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aromatisse: 251-296 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Aromatisse: 177-211 (43.5 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Tyrantrum? Bitch please. Obviously if Tyrantrum is scarfed it wins, but it loses otherwise. If you don't want to bank on Hurricane's shaky accuracy, you have a good shot of killing Tyrantrum with the 1-2 punch of Hurricane and HP Grass.
252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 174-205 (56.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 127-151 (41.5 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Clawitzer is not a wall lol.
252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Clawitzer: 250-294 (88.3 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Clawitzer: 182-216 (64.3 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As for Moltres's Stealth Rock weakness, it sucks of course, but on non-choice sets it can simply Roost away the damage. It's understandable to think "Weak to SR? Automatic PU!" or something along those lines, but that's not the case here. Being weak to SR is irrelevant when Moltres can sweep so much of the metagame before they can do anything back to it.

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

So, obligatory suspect post after reqs.

Moltres is dumb. It forces you to run shitty Pokémon like AV Kabutops and Eelektross to fully "counter" it, yet it's impossible to fully counter that beast whithout the mighty Magcargo since Tyrantrum is 2HKOed byHurricane after Rocks, Kabutops / Rhyperior are destroyed by HP Grass (I saw a Flame Plate with HP Grass and cried) or Sunny Day and Slowking / Jellicent are not only hit hard by U-turn but can be dealt with Pursuit after U-turn. Moltres is extremely restrictive teambuilding-wise and unhealthy for the metagame in general. Sure it's SR weak but so is Volcarona and Ho-oh and shit like that in upper tiers, and just like them Moltres manages to be a scary demon, and hazard removing/prevention in RU is not as hard as people try to make it sound. I'm voting to ban it (even though Rain will lose the best thing against Amoonguss :L ).

My position regarding Panda is obvious for those who know me so no point in explaining it since some people already said it here.

 

[Holiday]

Well I dropped off of RU's face but YA BOI came back for deez nuts suspects. I'll leave my little opinion on both.

Panda is dumb. Literally smashes anything that is slower than it and has one of the strongest knock offs in the game. Scrappy Band set can just spam SP or KOff to let something sweep, while the SD set can mount a sweep of his own. Overall it's been long overdue, which is why I think it should be BANNED

Moltres is quite the controversy. Powerful, but weak to rocks. Fast, but just not fast enough. Good typing, inaccurate moves. Lots of up and downs. I don't feel like Moltres is inherently broken, but it's just silly. You build your entire team in order not to be smashed by the scarf set, but then the LO set catches you. Rebuild for the LO set, BAM. Stall set (my personal favorite) take out three pokemon. Due to these overcentralizing sets, I say BAN.

TL;DR Ban both. Panda hits too hard, Moltres is overcentralizing

Good to be back in the tier.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

Okay so here's my two cents now that I've gotten reqs:

Pangoro: Neutral but leaning No Ban. I know I'm in a vast minority here but after fighting it and using it I'm really just underwhelmed. Does it hit hard? Hell yeah it does. Not a lot wants to go into it at all and knock off bugs a lot of things. However, it's ridiculously easy to revenge kill. It doesn't have any priority, and it has a straight pitiful speed tier for a sweeper. I'm really just not impressed by any means.

Moltres: Ban. Burd on the other hand is ridiculous. It can kill just about anything it wants, especially with Specs to be a real nuke. Sure rocks are a nuisance, but the tie is kinda drowning in super relevant hazard clearers like Hitmonlee, Skuntank, Golbat, Hitmontop, etc. YOu basically have to run something that can switch in to it to have an RU team, which , as has been previously stated, is overcentralizing.

 

[lighthouses]

Okay so here's my two cents now that I've gotten reqs:

Pangoro: Neutral but leaning No Ban. I know I'm in a vast minority here but after fighting it and using it I'm really just underwhelmed. Does it hit hard? Hell yeah it does. Not a lot wants to go into it at all and knock off bugs a lot of things. However, it's ridiculously easy to revenge kill. It doesn't have any priority, and it has a straight pitiful speed tier for a sweeper. I'm really just not impressed by any means.

Well, it's not a sweeper, and it's speed tier is just fine for doing what a wallbreaker should do, break walls o-o
While yeah it is easy to revenge kill, so is every other wallbreaker ever, all you have to do is switch out.

I think both should be banned. As any balanced player may have noticed you have to limit yourself so much while teambuilding(you need to have at least 3 mons that can outspeed and kill pangoro, as well as something that can try and pivot around it if you don't fuck up your predictions) just because of it, this is extremely unhealthy to the metagame as it pretty much forces you to run a fast-ish team if you don't wanna sack a mon to pangoro every 5 turns.
And on the topic of fast teams there's moltres which forces you to run stuff like ASSAULT VEST KABUTOPS which is only a thing so hyper offense can have a check to scarf moltres and it pretty much sucks otherwise.
Also you kinda have to run golbat for pangoro and come on, golbat.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

Well, it's not a sweeper, and it's speed tier is just fine for doing what a wallbreaker should do, break walls o-o
While yeah it is easy to revenge kill, so is every other wallbreaker ever, all you have to do is switch out.

I think both should be banned. As any balanced player may have noticed you have to limit yourself so much while teambuilding(you need to have at least 3 mons that can outspeed and kill pangoro, as well as something that can try and pivot around it if you don't fuck up your predictions) just because of it, this is extremely unhealthy to the metagame as it pretty much forces you to run a fast-ish team if you don't wanna sack a mon to pangoro every 5 turns.
And on the topic of fast teams there's moltres which forces you to run stuff like ASSAULT VEST KABUTOPS which is only a thing so hyper offense can have a check to scarf moltres and it pretty much sucks otherwise.
Also you kinda have to run golbat for pangoro and come on, golbat.

A lot of people are saying SD sweeps the whole tier which is more what I was referring to

 

[test BSM]

I hadn't played RU since last gen but given the suspect test I wanted to start up and see what's going on in the meta. I got reqs today, after three days of on and off laddering. I had little to no experience and came in as a total rookie, unaware of the state of the meta, so here's a noob's perspective on Bird and Panda.
Bird: this thing needs to go. It's got all the stats it needs to be offensive or defensive, and is top-tier at either role it plays. Bird checking restricted my teambuilding, and I could see it weighing far too heavily on others' teams I used. It's STABs are dumb strong with good typings, and despite their accuracy, even yet the confusion hax of hurricane and burn chance of fire blast have dealt me a few painful losses. You never know what exactly it'll do at first, which is the biggest danger aspect, and your check might not be right for the set its running so maybe you need another or have to attempt to switch something in as it damages you or sets up a sub and that's just pbbbtttt, esp when it's not that difficult to find a hazard remover for bird users, or get it in early, or prevent the rocks to begin with in the current meta with taunts and defoggers and spinners
Panda: at first I was actually leaning no ban when I first began my journey. I thought it was too frail to really take a SE hit, and too slow to be worried about having to outspeed it. Um but yo this thing hits like a truck. Panda paws down has the most spammable knock off, and is a lord at forcing switches (which is cool because it even gets its own move to benefit from others switching). Its STABs alone have epic coverage, and Scrappy means you don't even care about throwing out a banded anything. I see this thing slightly paralleling Cobalion, but with less switchins and better coverage, and dies far easier.

overall as a noob from start to finish i was just like wow these two things most specifically make me not want to play this tier cuz they're too flexible n powerful. goin double ban to hopefully make the meta more healthy and diverse and encourage new players

special shoutout to Schaff and King for a couple teams I used, helping me figure out the meta, and for being friendly mentor-y veterans to a nub.

 

[nv]

Ok so here is my official "post-reqs post".

Pangoro: This thing needs to go. The fact that this thing has 0 switch-ins, Swords Dance, and great coverage in just 3 moves means this thing is a major threat. While it has a lackluster base 58 Speed, it has an amazing base 124 Attack stat that can be boosted through Swords Dance or can go straight for an attack and either cripple a Pokemon thanks to Knock Off or gain its health back via Drain Punch. And the most common switch-ins, Fairies, are now bopped by Gunk Shot thanks to ORAS tutors. This thing has made a major splash in the lower tiers and while I know it won't get but little usage in UU (thanks to Heracross being a way better Swords Dance user and wallbreaker and it came back to UU in February) I believe this thing needs to be banned.

Moltres: I may be on the minority with this thing, but I believe this thing isn't as bad as people have made it out to be. With Gligar gone, hazard clearing in RU has become a lot harder as a lot of the spinners and Defoggers either are frail and can only get rid of hazards once or they compound weaknesses with Moltres, meaning they can eventually be worn down. While it may suck things like Assault Vest Kabutops can be used, it cannot get a free switch into Kabutops as both its STABs are super effective against Moltres. Also Eelektross is a pretty great Pokemon as well, threatening it with its STAB Volt Switch while also gaining momentum. Moltres may not have a ton of switch-ins, but it kind of reminds me of UU's Hydreigon in that it may grab a kill, but it can be worn down very easily thanks to Stealth Rock and the lack of overall bulk. For example, Cresselia, an S-rank Pokemon itself, can come in on all of Moltre's moves and proceed to cripple it via Thunder Wave or Toxic. Other Specially bulky Pokemon, such as Meloetta, Specially Defensive Jellicent, and Delphox can come in on Moltre's moves and proceed to hit it hard in Meloetta and Delphox's case or cripple it like in Jellicent's case. While the Scarf set of Moltres may wear down these Pokemon thanks to it learning U-turn, that makes predicting what the Moltres may or may not do a hell of a lot easier. I would say that its most potent set is its Sunny Day set, getting rid of one of its weaknesses while also giving it a better Grass-type coverage move, but this also makes it lose out on Flying-type coverage, which can be a bad thing outside of Sun. Overall I am voting no ban on this, but I have a feeling it will still be banned, lol.

 

[Lord Death Man]

I already made my post on both suspects, with how hard hazard-clearing has gotten, teams that just don't get rid of hazards have skyrocketed; further, this has made hazard-stacking even better which, ironically, has hurt both suspects considerably.

I still think they're both ban worthy, but the way the metagame ended up adapting around them is really notable and I think explains the much larger occurrence of No Ban later on in this thread. I kind of expect, should both suspects leave, for hazard clearing to become more common again just because defog won't benefit the opponent's Moltres as much and bulkier spinners/defoggers won't become huge panda bait.

 

[g]

Nothing personal but would you care to explain me what does this mean?

While it may suck things like Assault Vest Kabutops can be used, it cannot get a free switch into Kabutops as both its STABs are super effective against Moltres.

Kabutops is one of the (few) Moltres checks so why does it even matter if Moltres can't switch into it?
Not to mention that Cresselia is shit on by Toxic + Substitute Moltres and if it is CM Moonblast it gets Roost PP stalled by any set with Roost (+6 0 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 123-145 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO). If you are talking about Choice Scarf sets it is obvious to me that it is walled by a special wall like pretty much any attacker that doesnt have a boosting move/item (like the recently banned Mega Pidgeot) so there is no reason to make that point :/
You also say that Delphox can come in against Moltres but not even against Scarf it has a shot outside of misses (252 SpA Moltres Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Delphox: 175-207 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock; Life Orb almost OHKOs). Also you are saying that the mighty Eelektross is great while in addition to being mediocre in this metagame it is 2HKOd very easily by Life Orb sets and loses quite hard to Scarf after being hit by a U-turn.

Have a nice day!

 

[lighthouses]

Just to add that "Hazard cleaning is too hard after gligar leaves" isn't really an argument. Himtonlee, skuntank, shiftry, golbat(:[), hitmontop and kabutops can all fit in a lot of teams and clean hazards pretty reliably, gligar leaving doesn't really change moltres' viability all that much imo

 

[atomicllamas]

Alright, since I got my reqs its time for me to post my thoughts on the suspect ladder and the suspects themselves.

First of all and perhaps most importantly, galbia is an actual sack of aids for encouraging people to use Thunder Wave Cresselia with his sample team, and of course most of the users of the team were Italian so when they actually T-waved things they full parad every time. If you use Thunder Wave Cresselia you ARE a bad person. Good thing that team's ice resist was Qwilfish and I was using special Abomasnow (and that it had a huge Rhyperior weakness n_n). However this bring's me to my first point. The number of Mexican Psychic-types on the ladder was far too high, and given they were all SpD I can only assume it was to combat Moltres, which while it can stop CS and standard LO, gets absolutely shit on by Sub Toxic (which I ran for a bit, it was alright). Its also indicative of Moltres's strain on team building, because while the Thunder Wave Psychic's do check Moltres, they don't really counter it, and aren't really that good (Cresselia would rather be doing other things, yay for Uxie having a niche n_n) which is the case with all Moltres switch ins. I really don't think Moltres is /that/ broken, as some people are implying, but it is pretty unhealthy for the meta game, stifling the development of offensive teams as well as stall in the meta. I kind of agree with Nails on this one (too bad his post said Pangoro was bad and Exploud was broken, so his post is 1 for 3), in that it isn't necessarily broken (it kind of is but not really super broken like if 7 is broken on a scale from 1-10, Moltres is like a 7.04), but it is bad for the tier so I will be voting ban on Moltres.

For what its worth I just used B-drum Slurpuff during the suspect w/ sub to punish the use of the TW Psychic-types.

Pangoro has ~ 3 usable counters, and outside of that nothing can switch in (Qwilfish, Fast Golbat, Hitmontop, let me know if I'm missing any). And while yes, its stupid for people to use teams where the entire team is slower than Jolly Pangoro, and I don't think that is valid for people to complain about, the fact is that even stall teams that do carry 2-3 Pokemon faster than a Jolly base 58 Pokemon (its hard to carry more than 3 on stall) really struggle with Panda. Panda isn't even bad against offense, as unlike Exploud, it has good defensive typing to back up its alright defenses (Panda: 95 / 78 / 71, Exploud: 104 / 63 / 73). The 4x resistance to dark, as well as resistances to Ghost, Rock, and immunity to Psychic give it far more switch in opportunities than Exploud's immunity to Ghost. On top of this, if Exploud doesn't get a kill against offense, it really hasn't done anything for the team, where as at the very least Panda is crippling a Pokemon with STAB Knock Off, because it no longer has it's item. I kind of agree with user: SV on this one, it isn't necessarily broken, but it's super unhealthy for the tier, I actually do think its broken (only a little though, maybe slightly more than Moltres level), so I will be voting ban.

Shoutouts to the ladder for still being weak to Fletchinder, shoutouts to Alomomola specifically for being a physically defensive water-type that loses to Fletchinder one-v-one if it has knock off > toxic.

 

[nv]

*DISCLAIMER*: I need to not post when I am tired.

What I meant by the Kabu thing was that lighthouses mentioned that Ass Vest Kabutops was a bad thing and I meant that while it may suck having to run AssVest on it, it does work well. Sorry for the confusion.

The Cresselia thing was meant more as an overall general thing that Cresselia checks most Moltres set (which I should have specified, again my fault), but I ran Cress with Psyshock > Moonblast on the SubCM because I ran Panda for Dark-types so I didn't really have a problem with the SubToxic set but yea Moonblast variants are going to be stalled out. And I didn't mean to say Delphox comes in on Moltres's attacks, but rather Phox can revenge kill it with Specs or LO Psychic / Psyshock if it has switched into Rocks or has been worn down via Life Orb recoil.

252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 229-271 (71.3 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 169-200 (52.6 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And I do believe Eelektross is a pretty underrated check to Moltres, but Idk lol.

P.S. I may just abstain from Moltres vote since I believe it isn't truly broken but everyone else seems to think it is so why would my one vote matter lol.

 

[Imanalt]

so i've been on the fence on both suspects a lot. not surprisingly using almost exclusively offense, as well as webs in particular, i had a lot more trouble with moltres while laddering than i did with panda. Moltres threatens offense more, moltres restricts teambuilding for offense more. And yet moltres is the mon that i'm not sure should go. Panda is too toxic to any team that wants to ever play defensively. During the games I played with bulky offense, I was having to play much more aggressively just because i saw a panda, because if i didnt i knew it would pick up 2+ kills. There were a lot of times I had to assume the opponent wasnt content to just trade panda for something, because of how powerful it was, and because i didn't have a better option than trading. Panda is just too offensively threatening to bulkier teams, because they always have at least one thing it can force out, either by outrunning or being able to take a hit from, and whenever it gets in on that, it will almost always pick up a kill.

On moltres though, as i said i actually had a lot of trouble with it. But it always felt like there was a lot of potential to play around it. Sure, it was threatening, and would usually pick up a kill when it came in against my teams, especially if it was life orb, but it wasn't particularly hard to force out, despite primarily using relatively moltres weak teams. And right now, hazard removal isn't easy. With gligar gone, our defogging options suck, and doublade can spinblock a lot. So a mon that trades half its health to come in, pick up a kill against offense, which is used to having to sac mons if it lets threats get in safely, and then get forced out again is not that impressive.

There's one thing that makes me hesitant to say no ban on moltres though. Pursuiters provide a scary amount of support for it. They make it harder to keep rocks up against spinners, allowing moltres to actually take advantage of its pretty decent bulk, but they also can trap all of moltres' defensive checks that can eat an hp grass. This makes moltres, especially lo variants, much scarier against defensive teams, and this is why i think moltres is broken. If it had defensive answers that weren't pursuit bait, moltres would be just another mon that is a major threat to offense that can be played around and that isnt great against defensive teams. That mon wouldn't be broken. Moltres is broken.

 

[SOMALIA]

Won't need to type an essay to speak what I have on my mind. Pangoro isn't as threatening as people make it to be, I was using balance and thus never really suffered as I had Golbat + Tangrowth to wreck that menace. Moltres is pretty good, for some reason even the top players were using scarf tres and it posed no threat to me; I agree that sub toxic is a real threat for balanced and stall teams however I haven't seen it once so yeah in any of the games i played or watched. Not to mention, RU needs the few stallbreakers it has to be honest lol and both Pang and Moltres are pretty good ones.

Pangoro in a nutshell: Decent offensive typing and can actually take a hit or two that aren't super effective from tanks so it isn't as hard to switch it in as say, Heliolisk or Emboar. However it got shit speed and is outsped by loads of mons who can actually do heavy damage to this panda. Won't be voting ban. In the 40+ battles I played I haven't gotten swept by it or threatened to any extent. Yes, you could say the team I was using simply had many answers for it however the team still handled pretty much everything else in the metagame bar CM Reuniclus to a certain extent. The team didn't have to compromise much to be able to effectively deal with Moltres and Pangoro so I will say based on this that none are broken. Yeah, alot of other people are making teams with absolutely no solid fonudation bar the fact that they seem to counter Panogor + Moltres however I am not going to base my argument based on the people who cannot build better teams or cannot be bothered to and just cry ban the two suspects just to make their live easier. I've seen alot of variety during my laddering experience (BOTH at the top and bottom end of the ladder) and the metagame seems pretty healthy lol.

Won't be voting ban for any.

 

[aVocado]

I'm really biased when it comes to Pangoro in that I want it to stay, but it's kinda objectively broken because it breaks an entire playstyle while still remaining to be a threat to other playstyles as well, although not as much as it is a threat to stall, and its access to the best STAB move ever Knock Off is pretty damn good. Gunk Shot, Drain Punch/Superpower, Gunk Shot, and Swords Dance as well as the niche Parting Shot are all excellent moves that Pangoro has access to also, and there's next to little opportunity cost for using this thing and just clicking Knock Off while losing nothing. Even Cobalion and Virizion who would usually switch into a lot of Knock Off users can't switch in directly fearing it's other STAB, and all the megas that sponge Knock Off also take a lot from its other STAB attack. I really want it to stay because I like anything that breaks stall but this thing is objectively broken and as a future scientist (n_n) I have to be as objective as possible. ban.

Moltres on the other hand, I'm kinda on the fence but also leaning towards ban more. If anyone knows me well knows I've been against the idea of banning Moltres for the longest time, but over time I kinda changed that opinion because I started seeing the impact it has on the tier as negative, and almost like it's holding it back. I won't even argue and say things like it can beat stall by running SubToxic but let's be real no one uses that... the Scarf set and Life Orb, and the possibility of it having other sets is the main thing here. The reason I'm going to vote ban though is because this thing's counters are limited to a few things and you're forced to run one of those few things on your team if you don't want to get decimated by it, so yeah, I definitely think that that's a bad influence on the tier.

Changing the subject a bit from the suspects to talk about the actual metagame itself... I feel like this is close to representing the metagame in the earlier days. I'm seeing a lot of teams with hazard spam + spinblocker (doublade) + stuff to abuse hazards and possibly a spinner (hitmonlee). Gligar's absence had such a huge impact that those types of teams became popular again, and Qwilfish in general is amazing right now, so are Toxic Spikes... Things like Cobalion also enjoy this meta a lot, and in fact, Cobalion's viability rose even higher than before, making it S rank in the viability rankings, and new threats like Mega Steelix and Feraligatr are being discovered, which is really cool. Overall I'm really enjoying the meta right now and despite the probable rise of stall after Pangoro's banned, I'm betting my money it'll be even better after the suspect's finished.

 

[Homiedino]

Just to add that "Hazard cleaning is too hard after gligar leaves" isn't really an argument. Himtonlee, skuntank, shiftry, golbat(:[), hitmontop and kabutops can all fit in a lot of teams and clean hazards pretty reliably, gligar leaving doesn't really change moltres' viability all that much imo

Gligar I think very much improved Moltres as it switched into electric and rock moves easily, set up and cleared rocks, and cleaned up/forced a switch for Moltres to continue functioning. I think the whole tier kind of forgot about the power Moltres possessed during January with the triple suspect that occurred. However, being that gligar was the most reliable hazard remover, and that dragalge is gone, Moltres has seemed, on paper at least, more tolerable.

 

[spookysocialist]

Just to get a small change in topic, now that rock head tyrantrum has been released for about a week, what are everyone's thoughts on it? Do you guys think it's a big boost in viability, or overhyped? And while CB, DD, and RP are all viable right now and work well against different team styles, which one are people finding to be the most successful/consistent? And if moltres was banned, do you think he would be hurt from losing a pokemon he could check (I know hurricane 2hkos, but he can switch into fire blast easily) and losing a cleaner after his CB set wallbreaks, or do you think moltres departure would have a negligible effect on him?

 

[mael]

Thing is, that while Moltres might have switch ins for the specs and the scarfset, those can really easily be worn down. Sneasel and any kind of offensive Moltres is such a good combination. Almost every switch in for offensive Moltres sets is a psychic type, which means that Sneasel can threaten to pursuit trap it. Slowking, Jellicent, Sdef Cress. Even the non psychic type switch ins have a hard time vs Sneasel. Tyrantrum, Lanturn and whatever. Things get pressured and HAVE to switch out, which allows any pursuit trapper to damage them. While this is not the best argument for Moltres itself being broken, but it certainly is a good argument for Moltres being unhealthy, when it has limited switch ins, and those are weak to pursuit trapping, not to mention, that most of the switch ins lose to one or the other set it can run. I know most things have already been said, but I was unsure before the suspect test and I made this little team. It's not even a good team, but the core of Moltres + Pursuit trapper makes sweeping balanced/offensive teams so easy, it's not even funny. I'd say Ban on this.


As far as Tyrantrum goes... Man I'm having a hard time beating this, and I couldn't even tell you why. It's sdef is pretty poor but it's typing gives it a few good ressistances, considering that most electrics don't run Ice Moves in RU, that gives it opportunities to do something. CB Set or DD, imo both are very threatening and I really dislike facing it. It's physical bulk is very good, which makes it hard to revenge kill it with like let's say Mach Punch from Technitop (lol). I couldn't even tell you what set is the most threatening to be honest. I am yet to face Rock Polish, but I can imagine that being a pain to face for offensive teams. Like doublade is a good answer, Hitmonlee can do a decent amount with Mach Punch, but that's pretty much it, especially if hazards are up, which is not a hard thing to keep, since Gligar is gone. Rock Head certainly gave it a massive boost in viability in my opinion.

Those hazardstacking teams are so annoying to face, I wish we still had Gligar, that would be so healthy for the metagame, making a lot of stuff more viable and hazardspam less useful, which would mean more fun, but that might be bias. ):